57139 réponses à ce sujet

[killnoob]

Debi-Tage wrote...



For some reason Harby obviously wants Shepard alive. That has already been established in the last 400 pages through various lines of evidence. I will not rehash them here because the OPs of those posts state them more elloquently than I can restate right now.

Secondly,  I know you are hung up on the cinematics but what if those are what actually following the "real" ending. For instance, whatever choice you made, let's say destroy, then you are waking up in the rubble - FILL IN THE BLANK (future DLC, unlocks, whatever) then FAST FORWARD to the very end of the game - perhaps whatever is released will tie it all together? Suppose what you are seeing is not a linear progression but the true end story is what is missing in between.

Trust me, If  that as been established in the last 400 pages, I would know as I was responsible for like 300 of them.
With that said, you're not actually responding to my arguement, you're dodging it by saying other's have already explained in the last 400 pages, and you're treating them as if no one has ever tried to prove them wrong.

Simply answer:

If the reapers are arrogant enough to still want Separd alive after seeing him unconcious,

Why do they even relocated the citadel?

They want to preserve their own existence by stopping the crucible getting used

But at the same time,

They are interested in ONE mere human enough to not shoot him dead when they have the chance, and basically allows him to get to the crucible, when said human has defeated them again and again in the past?

That doesn't seem strange to you?

[lex0r11]

Elenterx wrote...

Pepper your angus guys, It's uploading.
will be available here soon.



It takes a while for the 720 version to process tho so quality might not be good at first.

thank you for doing this.

[VvAndromedavV]

killnoob wrote...

I've explained it before, everything is situational.

Harby wants Shepard alive before because reapers don't know about crucible
When they find out they got scared enough to move the citadel to earth where they could protect it
And when people start running towards the beam which teleport them to the citadel Harby goes into panic mode and shoots at everybody.

By your logic, you're basically saying

While the reapers are scared enough to relocated the citadel,

Harby still gives Shepard a chance to use the crucible, because he doesn't shoot him dead,
and when he has the perfect chance to remove this obstacle once and for all he still tries to indoctrinate him.

Can you help me understand why that make sense to you?

Well, for one thing, how cliche is it for the villain to have the protagonist right where they want them and then instead of killing them out-right they launch into some epic speech about what their master plan is, etc. and while they're busy gloating the protagonist gets away and all you can think as the audience is "Why didn't the villain kill the protagonist while they had the chance?"

Sure, it doesn't make sense, but in fiction it happens all the time.

Alternately, here is a possible explanation which I mentioned earlier in this thread:

At one point in ME3 Liara says it will "take about 100 years" for the Reapers to end the current cycle.

Now, given the destruction they caused during the course of ME3, I have no idea how or why it would take them
100 years to finish the task---it made no sense to me at the time and makes no sense to me now---but that seems to be the writer's opinion given what Liara says in-game. If that is the case, wouldn't Shepard be more useful as a Reaper tool than a corpse?

I mean Shepard is a galactic hero. It would be demoralizing to the organics to know she died and failed to kill the Reapers, yes, but I think it would be more demoralizing to see Shepard as a Reaper tool.

Is that the answer? No, but it's a possible scenario that Shepard is more valuable alive and indoctrinated than dead.

Modifié par VvAndromedavV, 14 mars 2012 - 08:33 .

[Tony208]

Maybe I've gone back to the denial stage but I'm starting to believe the indoctrination theory. What makes even less sense than the endings is that Bioware can make the game 99% amazing and fail so incredibly hard at the end. That doesn't make sense to me.

Modifié par Tony208, 14 mars 2012 - 08:29 .

[Golferguy758]

I relate harbinger to the batman joker in a way. Harvey dent would be shepard. Harbinger wants to twist shepard to break the will of the allied races. He may have unintentionally let shepard live in the barrage, but now saw it aa golden pportunity to twist him.

Assuming shepard breaks free harbinger would most likely go to finish him off, but joker flies in and distracts him. Hence the lines "that was for cortez" and"sorry, but the girls are coming home with me"

just a thought. I also want to apologize kill for being short with you earlier. We've had a lot of trolls come in to bah for the sake of bashing and I took it out on you.

[Blubox]

im german and i played the game now twice and i swear to god i heared the 'Marauder' (the turian reaper guy) saying "shepard" a couple of times, and some other things i would translate to "you cant....", but only in the german version, when i switched to english i couldnt hear it anymore. he had the same voice like harbinger but a bit distorted...is there someone who knows anything about that? or did i just imagine that?

[Leiha]

VvAndromedavV wrote...
At one point in ME3 Liara says it will "take about 100 years" for the Reapers
to end the current cycle.

Now, given the destruction they caused during the course of ME3, I have no idea how or why it would take them
100 years to finish the task---it made no sense to me at the time and makes no sense to me now---but that seems to be the writer's opinion given what Liara says in-game. If that [/i]is[i] the case, wouldn't Shepard be more useful as a Reaper tool than a corpse?

This confused me too when I heard it, because they really seem to have enough power to place enough Reapers in every system to be rid of everyone within a month or so..

Modifié par Leiha, 14 mars 2012 - 08:31 .

[theammo]

killnoob wrote...

Hurricane Brad wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Hurricane Brad wrote...

Harbinger tried to kill him when he was rushing the beam because he was a threat.  Just because he would prefer to take Shepard alive doesn't mean he would risk letting his most dangerous foe get to the superweapon that could potentially defeat the reapers.  I see no reason why he wouldn't make an indoctrination attempt while Shepard is unconscious as Shepard is no longer a threat and his unconscious mind should be more vulnerable.  It would be safer to just kill him, but I'm sure Harbinger is more than a little overconfident since Shepard is seemingly helpless.  For whatever reason he has always wanted Shepard alive if possible.  Also as far as we know Shepard has never before faced an indoctrination attempt, he has never been shown to struggle with this previously so I don't know what you mean by Harbinger attempting it "one last time."

I didn't say you should take my interpretation as fact, it is just a theory afterall.  We won't know if it's true or not until Bioware actually says something about it or releases new ending content.  Look at the evidence and draw your own conclusions, there is a lot of it that suggests that what happens to Shepard after the reaper beam is not reality.

If you are going to argue against the theory however you should at least understand the basics of it.  As far as I've seen, everybody in this thread who agrees at all with the indoctrination theory rejects the scene with the catalyst kid as being part of the indoctrination attempt.  It is in Shepard's head and if he attempts to destroy the reapers in his head it obviously doesn't mean they are destroyed in reality.  It just means that he has fought off the indoctrination attempt, which is why it shows him draw breath while lying in the rubble in London.  He can then hopefully get up and attempt to complete his mission. 

Your not getting it friend.

1 second before, Harby was bent on killing everbody.

the next second, when he has the perfect opportunity to deal the killing blow, he changes his mind?

Seriously that just would not work well in fictions.

Its like one of those villians that talk and talk and wasted their element of surprise by constantly talking when they could've just stabs the protagonist to death.

It is cliche, granted.  I think it's realistic in this case though given Harbinger's interest in Shepard, Shepard's apparent helplessness and the arrogance that the reapers continually display.

Yet, they're scared enough to relocate the citadel where most of them are, where  they could protect it.
Sure they're arrogant, but they sure as hell aren't arrogant enough to bet their existence on the line.

Killnoob the assumption you are making is that the catalyst is exactly as it was described in the ending.  The alternative is that the "real life" catalyst is actually no threat to the reapers at all (or maybe a minimal threat, after all the Protheans and other races did imagine that it would be).  As such Harbinger has Shepard exactly where he wants him/her at the end of ME3 - desperate and heading towards one very very very choreographed location.  

Don't forget that Shepard and Anderson don't actually know what will happen if they reach the beam - they only have the assumption that if they do reach there all will be well.  And if the catalyst really was that much of a threat, the reapers would have "switched off" the beam.  At least that's my theory!

Again no actual evidence for this of course - but at least it explains why Harbinger didn't finish Shepard off then and there - s/he's more use indoctrinated and alive.  

[Hurricane Brad]

killnoob wrote...

Hurricane Brad wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Hurricane Brad wrote...

Harbinger tried to kill him when he was rushing the beam because he was a threat.  Just because he would prefer to take Shepard alive doesn't mean he would risk letting his most dangerous foe get to the superweapon that could potentially defeat the reapers.  I see no reason why he wouldn't make an indoctrination attempt while Shepard is unconscious as Shepard is no longer a threat and his unconscious mind should be more vulnerable.  It would be safer to just kill him, but I'm sure Harbinger is more than a little overconfident since Shepard is seemingly helpless.  For whatever reason he has always wanted Shepard alive if possible.  Also as far as we know Shepard has never before faced an indoctrination attempt, he has never been shown to struggle with this previously so I don't know what you mean by Harbinger attempting it "one last time."

I didn't say you should take my interpretation as fact, it is just a theory afterall.  We won't know if it's true or not until Bioware actually says something about it or releases new ending content.  Look at the evidence and draw your own conclusions, there is a lot of it that suggests that what happens to Shepard after the reaper beam is not reality.

If you are going to argue against the theory however you should at least understand the basics of it.  As far as I've seen, everybody in this thread who agrees at all with the indoctrination theory rejects the scene with the catalyst kid as being part of the indoctrination attempt.  It is in Shepard's head and if he attempts to destroy the reapers in his head it obviously doesn't mean they are destroyed in reality.  It just means that he has fought off the indoctrination attempt, which is why it shows him draw breath while lying in the rubble in London.  He can then hopefully get up and attempt to complete his mission. 

Your not getting it friend.

1 second before, Harby was bent on killing everbody.

the next second, when he has the perfect opportunity to deal the killing blow, he changes his mind?

Seriously that just would not work well in fictions.

Its like one of those villians that talk and talk and wasted their element of surprise by constantly talking when they could've just stabs the protagonist to death.

It is cliche, granted.  I think it's realistic in this case though given Harbinger's interest in Shepard, Shepard's apparent helplessness and the arrogance that the reapers continually display.

Yet, they're scared enough to relocate the citadel where most of them are, where  they could protect it.
Sure they're arrogant, but they sure as hell aren't arrogant enough to bet their existence on the line.

I would argue that they no longer believe their existence to be on the line.  They just wiped out Hammer afterall, and even though Shepard is still alive he has got to be not only unconscious but also badly injured.  I have to think that Harbinger would be confident that even if the indoctrination failed, it would be effortless to finish Shepard off before he could recover.  If the reapers have a weakness, it would have to be hubris.

[Ghrelt]

Tony208 wrote...

Maybe I've gone back to the denial stage but I'm starting to believe the indoctrination theory. What makes even less sense than the endings is that Bioware can make the game 99% amazing and fail so incredibly hard at the end. That doesn't make sense to me.

That's why I believe the Indoctrination Theory.  As far-fetched as it may seem, it actually makes better logical sense than the endings as they exist now.

[Peer of the Empire]

Harbinger is a reaper. Reapers reap; it's what they do. Until now their motives have remained unclear but they are certainly interested in organic life. If Harbinger has killed everybody racing to the light then it means Shephard is alone and dying. Perfect time, to indoctrinate, making use of this remarkable person

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 14 mars 2012 - 08:35 .

[lex0r11]

Golferguy758 wrote...

I relate harbinger to the batman joker in a way. Harvey dent would be shepard. Harbinger wants to twist shepard to break the will of the allied races. He may have unintentionally let shepard live in the barrage, but now saw it aa golden pportunity to twist him.

Assuming shepard breaks free harbinger would most likely go to finish him off, but joker flies in and distracts him. Hence the lines "that was for cortez" and"sorry, but the girls are coming home with me"

just a thought. I also want to apologize kill for being short with you earlier. We've had a lot of trolls come in to bah for the sake of bashing and I took it out on you.

it makes sense to break morale. shep was the reason the first reaper was destroyed. he was the reason the whole collector thing was stopped. he is the reason why the whole friken galaxy is fighting under on banner. a dead shep would be bad for morale. a turned and fighting against his allies shep would be the end of EVERYONE.

[VvAndromedavV]

killnoob wrote...

They are interested in ONE mere human enough to not shoot him dead when they have the chance, and basically allows him to get to the crucible, when said human has defeated them again and again in the past?

That doesn't seem strange to you?

Again, the idea of a villain not taking the chance to kill the protagonist, who has usually defeated them again and again in the past, is used and re-used in fiction.

Strange? No.

Lazy and cliche on the part of the writers, yes.

[Elenterx]

My head is still exploding right now after hearing TIM whisper shepard...

There is NO reason for that to happen. None.

[Ghats212]

A lot of people are asking why harbinger would give shepard a chance to use the crucible and not just kill him on the spot. I think harbinger was trying to kill shepard, hence all of those missed shots during that final run to the beam. Shepard was within a few feet of messing everything up. I think the indoctrination is a last resort. A fail safe just in case shepard got too close to beating them. A last ditch effort to save themselves. Harbinger probably enjoys it. He did.keep shepard for two days after being.knocked

[soull2]

Hurricane Brad wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Hurricane Brad wrote...

Harbinger tried to kill him when he was rushing the beam because he was a threat.  Just because he would prefer to take Shepard alive doesn't mean he would risk letting his most dangerous foe get to the superweapon that could potentially defeat the reapers.  I see no reason why he wouldn't make an indoctrination attempt while Shepard is unconscious as Shepard is no longer a threat and his unconscious mind should be more vulnerable.  It would be safer to just kill him, but I'm sure Harbinger is more than a little overconfident since Shepard is seemingly helpless.  For whatever reason he has always wanted Shepard alive if possible.  Also as far as we know Shepard has never before faced an indoctrination attempt, he has never been shown to struggle with this previously so I don't know what you mean by Harbinger attempting it "one last time."

I didn't say you should take my interpretation as fact, it is just a theory afterall.  We won't know if it's true or not until Bioware actually says something about it or releases new ending content.  Look at the evidence and draw your own conclusions, there is a lot of it that suggests that what happens to Shepard after the reaper beam is not reality.

If you are going to argue against the theory however you should at least understand the basics of it.  As far as I've seen, everybody in this thread who agrees at all with the indoctrination theory rejects the scene with the catalyst kid as being part of the indoctrination attempt.  It is in Shepard's head and if he attempts to destroy the reapers in his head it obviously doesn't mean they are destroyed in reality.  It just means that he has fought off the indoctrination attempt, which is why it shows him draw breath while lying in the rubble in London.  He can then hopefully get up and attempt to complete his mission. 

Your not getting it friend.

1 second before, Harby was bent on killing everbody.

the next second, when he has the perfect opportunity to deal the killing blow, he changes his mind?

Seriously that just would not work well in fictions.

Its like one of those villians that talk and talk and wasted their element of surprise by constantly talking when they could've just stabs the protagonist to death.

It is cliche, granted.  I think it's realistic in this case though given Harbinger's interest in Shepard, Shepard's apparent helplessness and the arrogance that the reapers continually display.

I think if there is one thing we can all agree on it’s that Harbinger Likes to talk… a lot.

Modifié par soull2, 14 mars 2012 - 08:33 .

[Apolik]

killnoob wrote...

TheRealQueen wrote...


I don't think Harbinger changed his mind. I don't think his intention was to kill Shepard in the first place. If his intention was to kill him in the first place, I think Shepard would be dead. As you said, it's a "deathly laser". I mean, you are running straight at the conduit, it's an easy shot. It also appears as if you are hit dead on, but I can't be sure as it fades to white so we don't see Shepard actually getting hit. You insist that Harbinger wants Shepard dead, and yet, Harbinger doesn't kill him/her. If he really wanted Shepard dead, as you insist, wouldn't he shoot Shepard again, just to make sure?

I understand that you don't want to fully accept that Harbinger would indoctrinate Shepard. I also understand that you don't want us saying that this theory is fact, because it is in fact a theory, thus isn't fact. But I would like to also say that there is lots of evidence that Harbinger doesn't want Shepard dead, either. Neither position is concrete.

Also, I feel it should be noted that the blasts are random, sometimes aimed at something, sometimes not. At points it takes out a person, at another time it shoots a pile of rubble. It's a machine, it should be more accurate than that if it's truly intent on killing all of the forces. That's just how I see it.

I've explained it before, everything is situational.

Harby wants Shepard alive before because reapers don't know about crucible
When they find out they got scared enough to move the citadel to earth where they could protect it
And when people start running towards the beam which teleport them to the citadel Harby goes into panic mode and shoots at everybody.

By your logic, you're basically saying

While the reapers are scared enough to relocated the citadel,

Harby still gives Shepard a chance to use the crucible, because he doesn't shoot him dead,
and when he has the perfect chance to remove this obstacle once and for all he still tries to indoctrinate him.

Can you help me understand why that make sense to you?

This is how I see it. Harbinger could of either intentionally seriously wounded Shepard on purpose or simply been taking pot shots at the charging forces. Either way after everything stops moving he finds Sheperd unconscious. He could kill Shepard, yet what is the harm in trying to indoctrinate Shepard in such a weak state? If it fails it would be rather simple to shoot another death laser beam to kill him, and that's if Sheperd was even in a state to make a run for the beam still.

Think of everything they have to gain with a succesful indoctrination. What if they managed to make Sheperd start fighting his allies through it? The troops get a huge boost in morale seeing Sheperd fight beside them. Seeing him turn against them for destroy any ounce of hope that remains. Harbinger could easily see it as a win win situation. Either indoctrinate Sheperd and crush any ounce of hope left in the attacking forces, or if that fails kill him and be done with it. The chance of Sheperd being able to make it to the beam with Harbinger sitting right there are incredibly unlikely. Though I'd like to imagine this ****iness could lead to Harbinger being open to a Normandy run by after Sheperd fights off the indoctrination attempts. 

[Elenterx]

Blubox wrote...

im german and i played the game now twice and i swear to god i heared the 'Marauder' (the turian reaper guy) saying "shepard" a couple of times, and some other things i would translate to "you cant....", but only in the german version, when i switched to english i couldnt hear it anymore. he had the same voice like harbinger but a bit distorted...is there someone who knows anything about that? or did i just imagine that?

Both times I did that part it's different races saying different things, Odd isn't it?

You can hear more whispering in the video I'm uploading.

It sped up, only 30 mins now.

[PrinceOfFallout13]

one thing that supports this theory 100%

where is harbinger after shepard wakes up again?

[lex0r11]

Elenterx wrote...

My head is still exploding right now after hearing TIM whisper shepard...

There is NO reason for that to happen. None.

i always tried to make more out of the voices in these sequences, because some sounde too familiar. but i guess i concentrated more on the whole picture of running through nightmares, because shep is emotionally screwed after all these years.

and why does that upload take so long, damit.

[killnoob]

Fledgey wrote...

Turran wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Yet, they're scared enough to relocate the citadel where most of them are, where  they could protect it.
Sure they're arrogant, but they sure as hell aren't arrogant enough to bet their existence on the line.

I know you are probably bored, but why are you so set on going against this whole theory?
You may be against it, and I am sure we are sorry if it offends you, but you can't just leave the people who believe or want to believe this theory alone?

You seem set on causing an argument, or trying to disprove it.

It's the same reason militant atheists start arguments with the religious. They see themselves as much more educated and logical and reasoning so they feel the need to impose that on others. (I am an atheist and I think it's really distasteful when other atheists do this.)

That's where you are wrong.

I have not a single theory in mind that i try to impose you with.

I've only explained to you why your own theory wouldn't work, and when you find it hard to win the arguement you fall back into the "You're just trying to start something, aren't you line"

As for the person asking why I'm doing this, I've told many people before.

1.

I have seen so many people posting this hallucination theory on everywhere possible and treat them as fact, and that annoys me because they don't understand no matter what straw they manage to grasp, everything is their own wishful thinking until bioware come forward to explain everything, which they wont.

2

It is not the fan's job the fill in the plot hole.
An open ending is good, but not when it's full of plot hole requires some amazing leaps of logic in order to fill them up.
Honestly, every arguement from the theorist side sounds like grasping straws to me, and while some worded them better (like the OP) and provided some related evidence, which can be disproved still, most of them are just plan bad.

3.

It will set a bad example for future game devs.

Fans trying to justify a bad ending with conspiracy theories is not setting a good example for future game project.
If Bioware gets away with this, it'd be easier for them to cut down the development time on writings and just let the fan fill in the blanks instead. They need to take responsibility for breaking the format of all previous ME installements and for ending a wonderful series on the most lazy note possible.

Three exact same cinematics using three different colours + minous difference?

And you want to help them explain the endings?

No.

[Mallissin]

Tony208 wrote...

Maybe I've gone back to the denial stage but I'm starting to believe the indoctrination theory. What makes even less sense than the endings is that Bioware can make the game 99% amazing and fail so incredibly hard at the end. That doesn't make sense to me.

The only part of the ending that doesn't make sense to me is how Liara, my love interest across all three games and who accomplanied me fighting on Earth, is suddenly teleported onto the Normandy and speeding away at high speed to crash on Eden.

That's the only thing that doesn't make sense to me, everything else is okay.

I really think the DLC will go into the dreams more and the Reaper origins, which will make the current endings make more sense to everyone else.

But to add to the speculation further, I'd like to point out something the OP mentions but from a different perspective. The Destruction and Control options are both pieces of the Citadel, meaning those options were available to previous cycles and didn't work (if we assume after tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of cycles, at least a few were able to get to the choice too).

The only thing different this time (cycle) is the new modifications to the Crucible. So, I stand behind my decision to dive into the beam and end the synthetic versus organic metaphysical war once and for all.

[daviddata1]

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

one thing that supports this theory 100%

where is harbinger after shepard wakes up again?

 

He takes off when you "wake up"

[Debi-Tage]

killnoob wrote...

Debi-Tage wrote...



For some reason Harby obviously wants Shepard alive. That has already been established in the last 400 pages through various lines of evidence. I will not rehash them here because the OPs of those posts state them more elloquently than I can restate right now.

Secondly,  I know you are hung up on the cinematics but what if those are what actually following the "real" ending. For instance, whatever choice you made, let's say destroy, then you are waking up in the rubble - FILL IN THE BLANK (future DLC, unlocks, whatever) then FAST FORWARD to the very end of the game - perhaps whatever is released will tie it all together? Suppose what you are seeing is not a linear progression but the true end story is what is missing in between.

Trust me, If  that as been established in the last 400 pages, I would know as I was responsible for like 300 of them.
With that said, you're not actually responding to my arguement, you're dodging it by saying other's have already explained in the last 400 pages, and you're treating them as if no one has ever tried to prove them wrong.

Simply answer:

If the reapers are arrogant enough to still want Separd alive after seeing him unconcious,

Why do they even relocated the citadel?

They want to preserve their own existence by stopping the crucible getting used

But at the same time,

They are interested in ONE mere human enough to not shoot him dead when they have the chance, and basically allows him to get to the crucible, when said human has defeated them again and again in the past?

That doesn't seem strange to you?

No, I am not trying to avoid your "argument" that you made in the last 300 pages...you are responsible for ALL those? I am just not going to do your research for you. I agree and disagree with various points brought up on this thread...sometimes even my own after getting new information.

I want to hear what YOUR theory is...

[kyrieee]

I don't think there's any significance to TIM whispering it. You can't say that implies indoctrination, because there are so many voices friendly to Shepard as well.