57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Vervuel]

Totally random question....too many threads dealing with the endings at his point. In the "Destroy" ending, right after the Normandy is caught by the red wave of ynthetic death, an image flashes on the screen. I can't isolate it, don't have the skills, but can someone take a look?

Also, DLC = True Ending.

[lex0r11]

soull2 wrote...



I think if there is one thing we can all agree on it’s that Harbinger Likes to talk… a lot.

classic villain, giving the hero enough time.

[MissMaster_2]

If this theory is right then we still don't know where there Reapers came from...and I like that.

[Elenterx]

lex0r11 wrote...

Elenterx wrote...

My head is still exploding right now after hearing TIM whisper shepard...

There is NO reason for that to happen. None.

i always tried to make more out of the voices in these sequences, because some sounde too familiar. but i guess i concentrated more on the whole picture of running through nightmares, because shep is emotionally screwed after all these years.

and why does that upload take so long, damit.

I recommend wearing headphones, It is definitely TIM.
Not sure why uploading takes so damn long, it's only 200mb

[TheRealQueen]

killnoob wrote...

TheRealQueen wrote...


I don't think Harbinger changed his mind. I don't think his intention was to kill Shepard in the first place. If his intention was to kill him in the first place, I think Shepard would be dead. As you said, it's a "deathly laser". I mean, you are running straight at the conduit, it's an easy shot. It also appears as if you are hit dead on, but I can't be sure as it fades to white so we don't see Shepard actually getting hit. You insist that Harbinger wants Shepard dead, and yet, Harbinger doesn't kill him/her. If he really wanted Shepard dead, as you insist, wouldn't he shoot Shepard again, just to make sure?

I understand that you don't want to fully accept that Harbinger would indoctrinate Shepard. I also understand that you don't want us saying that this theory is fact, because it is in fact a theory, thus isn't fact. But I would like to also say that there is lots of evidence that Harbinger doesn't want Shepard dead, either. Neither position is concrete.

Also, I feel it should be noted that the blasts are random, sometimes aimed at something, sometimes not. At points it takes out a person, at another time it shoots a pile of rubble. It's a machine, it should be more accurate than that if it's truly intent on killing all of the forces. That's just how I see it.

I've explained it before, everything is situational.

Harby wants Shepard alive before because reapers don't know about crucible
When they find out they got scared enough to move the citadel to earth where they could protect it
And when people start running towards the beam which teleport them to the citadel Harby goes into panic mode and shoots at everybody.

By your logic, you're basically saying

While the reapers are scared enough to relocated the citadel,

Harby still gives Shepard a chance to use the crucible, because he doesn't shoot him dead,
and when he has the perfect chance to remove this obstacle once and for all he still tries to indoctrinate him.

Can you help me understand why that make sense to you?

Yes, the Reapers relocate the Citadel, I will grant that. But I wouldn't say they were "scared" so much as "not stupid". After all, knowing that the humans now know how to use their magic weapon of death and NOT moving the Citadel would be incredibly idiotic. "Yes, let's leave the key to our destruction where anyone can get to it. That's a brilliant move." The only smart option for the Reapers would be to move it. It wasn't out of fear, it was out of tactical reasoning. They are machines after all.

Next, I don't feel that Harbinger goes into "panic mode" when he goes to defend the conduit. He just did what was smart and defended it. And in the end, didn't do what you claim he meant to do, kill Shepard. He blasts Shepard, and then just ups and leaves.

I, personally, can't understand how if he wants Shepard dead so badly, he doesn't make sure that Shepard is dead in any way. I asked a question before, which you neglected to respond to as it may have just been percieved as hypothetical, but again, why wouldn't he shoot him again? Or at least make sure he's dead.

After completing this response, I realize that other may have said this, as it took me a while to get over my initial taking everything personally phase (which I do as a sensitive individual, thus had to give myself a breather).

[Noob451]

Elenterx wrote...

My head is still exploding right now after hearing TIM whisper shepard...

There is NO reason for that to happen. None.

can someone bring me up to speed on this? I think i missed something....

[killnoob]

Apolik wrote...



This is how I see it. Harbinger could of either intentionally seriously wounded Shepard on purpose or simply been taking pot shots at the charging forces. Either way after everything stops moving he finds Sheperd unconscious. He could kill Shepard, yet what is the harm in trying to indoctrinate Shepard in such a weak state? If it fails it would be rather simple to shoot another death laser beam to kill him, and that's if Sheperd was even in a state to make a run for the beam still.

Think of everything they have to gain with a succesful indoctrination. What if they managed to make Sheperd start fighting his allies through it? The troops get a huge boost in morale seeing Sheperd fight beside them. Seeing him turn against them for destroy any ounce of hope that remains. Harbinger could easily see it as a win win situation. Either indoctrinate Sheperd and crush any ounce of hope left in the attacking forces, or if that fails kill him and be done with it. The chance of Sheperd being able to make it to the beam with Harbinger sitting right there are incredibly unlikely. Though I'd like to imagine this ****iness could lead to Harbinger being open to a Normandy run by after Sheperd fights off the indoctrination attempts. 

Right, except you don't see harbringers anywhere when you see Shepard waking up from the ribble.

nor do you hear any noise indicating that he is nearby.

Harby simply left a massive threat to his existence lying in some rubbles without a care.

If that isn't stupidity, then I don't know what is.

[MissMaster_2]

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

one thing that supports this theory 100%

where is harbinger after shepard wakes up again?

This ^

If Herby saw Shepard get up I'm pretty sure he would have been like "OH hell no!"

[Nubbin149]

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

one thing that supports this theory 100%

where is harbinger after shepard wakes up again?

I literally logged in JUST to point this out right before you posted. 

I don't know if it's important or really means anything, but when you Awaken after getting hit with harbingers beam and you hear Major Coats saying that everyone is dead, you can clearly see harbinger take off and leave right after he sees you get up.  

Without the ID theory, wouldn't harbinger stick around to make sure shepherd got harvested ? I know that Harb is definitely interested in shep's physical body, I highly doubt that he would just bone out after dropping him.

Which also brings up, why is it harbinger in the first place. Any reaper could have landed next to the conduit and taken care of a rag tag group of humans, but it was harbinger of all reapers. The one reaper with the uncomfortable obsession with shepherd. And you're telling me he decides that killing shepherd is enough ? Doesn't really fit  

[Debi-Tage]

killnoob wrote...

Fledgey wrote...

Turran wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Yet, they're scared enough to relocate the citadel where most of them are, where  they could protect it.
Sure they're arrogant, but they sure as hell aren't arrogant enough to bet their existence on the line.

I know you are probably bored, but why are you so set on going against this whole theory?
You may be against it, and I am sure we are sorry if it offends you, but you can't just leave the people who believe or want to believe this theory alone?

You seem set on causing an argument, or trying to disprove it.

It's the same reason militant atheists start arguments with the religious. They see themselves as much more educated and logical and reasoning so they feel the need to impose that on others. (I am an atheist and I think it's really distasteful when other atheists do this.)

That's where you are wrong.

I have not a single theory in mind that i try to impose you with.

I've only explained to you why your own theory wouldn't work, and when you find it hard to win the arguement you fall back into the "You're just trying to start something, aren't you line"

As for the person asking why I'm doing this, I've told many people before.

1.

I have seen so many people posting this hallucination theory on everywhere possible and treat them as fact, and that annoys me because they don't understand no matter what straw they manage to grasp, everything is their own wishful thinking until bioware come forward to explain everything, which they wont. THAT IS NOT A THEORY - THAT IS AN OPINION.

2

It is not the fan's job the fill in the plot hole.
An open ending is good, but not when it's full of plot hole requires some amazing leaps of logic in order to fill them up.
Honestly, every arguement from the theorist side sounds like grasping straws to me, and while some worded them better (like the OP) and provided some related evidence, which can be disproved still, most of them are just plan bad. AGAIN - AN OPINION (BIOWARE ARE SUCKY WRITERS)

3.

It will set a bad example for future game devs.

Fans trying to justify a bad ending with conspiracy theories is not setting a good example for future game project.
If Bioware gets away with this, it'd be easier for them to cut down the development time on writings and just let the fan fill in the blanks instead. They need to take responsibility for breaking the format of all previous ME installements and for ending a wonderful series on the most lazy note possible.

Three exact same cinematics using three different colours + minous difference?

And you want to help them explain the endings? WE ARE NOT HELPING THEM DO ANYTHING - THAT IS YOUR OPINION.

No. THEN LEAVE.

[daviddata1]

This has probably been said before, but the codex in game about indoctrination confirm that the last bit of the game could be indoctrination.

[Tailen]

killnoob wrote...

TheRealQueen wrote...


I don't think Harbinger changed his mind. I don't think his intention was to kill Shepard in the first place. If his intention was to kill him in the first place, I think Shepard would be dead. As you said, it's a "deathly laser". I mean, you are running straight at the conduit, it's an easy shot. It also appears as if you are hit dead on, but I can't be sure as it fades to white so we don't see Shepard actually getting hit. You insist that Harbinger wants Shepard dead, and yet, Harbinger doesn't kill him/her. If he really wanted Shepard dead, as you insist, wouldn't he shoot Shepard again, just to make sure?

I understand that you don't want to fully accept that Harbinger would indoctrinate Shepard. I also understand that you don't want us saying that this theory is fact, because it is in fact a theory, thus isn't fact. But I would like to also say that there is lots of evidence that Harbinger doesn't want Shepard dead, either. Neither position is concrete.

Also, I feel it should be noted that the blasts are random, sometimes aimed at something, sometimes not. At points it takes out a person, at another time it shoots a pile of rubble. It's a machine, it should be more accurate than that if it's truly intent on killing all of the forces. That's just how I see it.

I've explained it before, everything is situational.

Harby wants Shepard alive before because reapers don't know about crucible
When they find out they got scared enough to move the citadel to earth where they could protect it
And when people start running towards the beam which teleport them to the citadel Harby goes into panic mode and shoots at everybody.

By your logic, you're basically saying

While the reapers are scared enough to relocated the citadel,

Harby still gives Shepard a chance to use the crucible, because he doesn't shoot him dead,
and when he has the perfect chance to remove this obstacle once and for all he still tries to indoctrinate him.

Can you help me understand why that make sense to you?

So really your angle is this:  What's the point of indoctrination if they can just kill/harvest all advanced organic life?  Why wouldn't they just kill/harvest Shepard like every other pesky insect swarming below them in a desperate panic?

The fact is -- As with Saren and TIM -- indoctrination serves a purpose far beyond what you're giving it credit for; far beyond the value of simply killing their opposition.

I think you don't accept the theory here because you don't buy in to the purpose of indoctrination in the Mass Effect lore.  I think you undervalue the importance of indoctrination, and underestimate the level of hubris in an advanced species who literally recycles all life in the galaxy every 50,000 years.

Is Shepard better destroyed, or turned against the very cause he's been fighting for?  Broken, and used as an example of the futility of their struggle?

Modifié par Tailen, 14 mars 2012 - 08:43 .

[MissMaster_2]

Noob451 wrote...

Elenterx wrote...

My head is still exploding right now after hearing TIM whisper shepard...

There is NO reason for that to happen. None.

can someone bring me up to speed on this? I think i missed something....

Yeah....i'm lost on this too.

[lex0r11]

Elenterx wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Elenterx wrote...

My head is still exploding right now after hearing TIM whisper shepard...

There is NO reason for that to happen. None.

i always tried to make more out of the voices in these sequences, because some sounde too familiar. but i guess i concentrated more on the whole picture of running through nightmares, because shep is emotionally screwed after all these years.

and why does that upload take so long, damit.

I recommend wearing headphones, It is definitely TIM.
Not sure why uploading takes so damn long, it's only 200mb

if it's there, i will hear it. i heard through my headphones that the background voices of the catalyst are fem and malesheps voices.

[Ichinei]

Yeah im gonna say right now killnoob, you havnt been responsible for even 60 or so pages, let alone 300, dont over-exaggerate your presence here

[AM94]

VvAndromedavV wrote...

When I finished the game it was my interpretation at the time that the ending sequence was Harbinger's attempt to indoctrinate Shepard, and that unless you choose "destroy" you end up dead and/or indoctrinated.

It wasn't until I saw the outrage online that I realized most people did not interpret it this way.

It remains my opinion that the ending was a indoctrination-induced hallucination. Some people say it's grasping at straws but I think the evidence for it is actually there, and not after-the-fact wishful thinking by fans disappointed by the ending.

That being said, without an official word from Bioware, all interpretations of the ending will be speculation.

The only reason why I'm not fully satisfied with the "indoctrination theory" is that, if it's true, and the "good" ending is Shepard waking up in the rubble in London after resisting indoctrination, it's not really over, is it?

Which means that Bioware will inevitably release a paid DLC to tell the end of the story since they purposefully left the ending of ME3 off the actual disc. If this happens it will be an unprecedented middle finger from EA/Biowave to anyone who's invested hundreds of hours into the ME trilogy.

Edited to add: There is a debate as to why Harbinger would try to indoctrinate Shepard as opposed to outright killing her. I've seen a few possible explanations for this, but one I haven't seen is this: at one point in ME3 Liara says it will "take about 100 years" for the Reapers to end the current cycle.

Now, given the destruction they caused during the course of ME3, I have no idea how or why it would take them 100 years to finish the task---it made no sense to me at the time and makes no sense to me now---but that seems to be the writer's opinion given what Liara says in-game. If that is the case, wouldn't Shepard be more useful as a Reaper tool than a corpse?

I mean Shepard is a galactic hero. It would be demoralizing to the organics to know she died and failed to kill the Reapers, yes, but I think it would be more demoralizing to see Shepard as a Reaper tool.

The reason it would take 100 years is because the Reapers only really effected homeworlds that were massive population centers. They largely avoided outer colonies during the initial attack so that they could deal with them later since they likely wouldnt be able to prepare enough to become a threat.  We dont really know how much of the galaxy is colonized and in order to rid the galaxy of advanced civilizations they would have to systematically hunt through all of the worlds colonized by advanced civilization until the races were extinct or removed of any chance of rebuilding for a long enough time. Searching through these worlds could take decades because the galaxy is so vast and if only 100 out of a trillion survived, they would be able to rebuild overtime which the Reapers had to ensure didnt happen.

[Apolik]

killnoob wrote...

Apolik wrote...



This is how I see it. Harbinger could of either intentionally seriously wounded Shepard on purpose or simply been taking pot shots at the charging forces. Either way after everything stops moving he finds Sheperd unconscious. He could kill Shepard, yet what is the harm in trying to indoctrinate Shepard in such a weak state? If it fails it would be rather simple to shoot another death laser beam to kill him, and that's if Sheperd was even in a state to make a run for the beam still.

Think of everything they have to gain with a succesful indoctrination. What if they managed to make Sheperd start fighting his allies through it? The troops get a huge boost in morale seeing Sheperd fight beside them. Seeing him turn against them for destroy any ounce of hope that remains. Harbinger could easily see it as a win win situation. Either indoctrinate Sheperd and crush any ounce of hope left in the attacking forces, or if that fails kill him and be done with it. The chance of Sheperd being able to make it to the beam with Harbinger sitting right there are incredibly unlikely. Though I'd like to imagine this ****iness could lead to Harbinger being open to a Normandy run by after Sheperd fights off the indoctrination attempts. 

Right, except you don't see harbringers anywhere when you see Shepard waking up from the ribble.

nor do you hear any noise indicating that he is nearby.

Harby simply left a massive threat to his existence lying in some rubbles without a care.

If that isn't stupidity, then I don't know what is.

As soon as Sheperd "wakes up" he is inside his head. Harbinger is still right there. Sheperd is in his own head though so.

[Golferguy758]

I relate harbinger to the batman joker in a way. Harvey dent would be shepard. Harbinger wants to twist shepard to break the will of the allied races. He may have unintentionally let shepard live in the barrage, but now saw it aa golden pportunity to twist him.

Assuming shepard breaks free harbinger would most likely go to finish him off, but joker flies in and distracts him. Hence the lines "that was for cortez" and"sorry, but the girls are coming home with me"

just a thought. I also want to apologize kill for being short with you earlier. We've had a lot of trolls come in to bah for the sake of bashing and I took it out on you.

[Descedent]

[Elenterx]

[Elenterx]

10 minutes until it's up, though it might have to be accepted by youtube mods :/

[GavinUK86]

just replaying the end again..... anyone else notice, in the area that looks like shadow brokers ship, some of the faceless corpses are wearing the light pheonix armor. the same armor ashley williams was wearing the first time you meet back in mass effect 1 on eden prime? as far as i know, that armor is out of circulation according to bioware. hence why all amour is more bulky now. i find that very interesting. could be bioware just using simple textures to populate that area, but seems too elaborate to me. anyone have any ideas?

[TobiTobsen]

Elenterx wrote...

omg. Take it away!

[soull2]

TheRealQueen wrote...

killnoob wrote...

TheRealQueen wrote...


I don't think Harbinger changed his mind. I don't think his intention was to kill Shepard in the first place. If his intention was to kill him in the first place, I think Shepard would be dead. As you said, it's a "deathly laser". I mean, you are running straight at the conduit, it's an easy shot. It also appears as if you are hit dead on, but I can't be sure as it fades to white so we don't see Shepard actually getting hit. You insist that Harbinger wants Shepard dead, and yet, Harbinger doesn't kill him/her. If he really wanted Shepard dead, as you insist, wouldn't he shoot Shepard again, just to make sure?

I understand that you don't want to fully accept that Harbinger would indoctrinate Shepard. I also understand that you don't want us saying that this theory is fact, because it is in fact a theory, thus isn't fact. But I would like to also say that there is lots of evidence that Harbinger doesn't want Shepard dead, either. Neither position is concrete.

Also, I feel it should be noted that the blasts are random, sometimes aimed at something, sometimes not. At points it takes out a person, at another time it shoots a pile of rubble. It's a machine, it should be more accurate than that if it's truly intent on killing all of the forces. That's just how I see it.

I've explained it before, everything is situational.

Harby wants Shepard alive before because reapers don't know about crucible
When they find out they got scared enough to move the citadel to earth where they could protect it
And when people start running towards the beam which teleport them to the citadel Harby goes into panic mode and shoots at everybody.

By your logic, you're basically saying

While the reapers are scared enough to relocated the citadel,

Harby still gives Shepard a chance to use the crucible, because he doesn't shoot him dead,
and when he has the perfect chance to remove this obstacle once and for all he still tries to indoctrinate him.

Can you help me understand why that make sense to you?

Yes, the Reapers relocate the Citadel, I will grant that. But I wouldn't say they were "scared" so much as "not stupid". After all, knowing that the humans now know how to use their magic weapon of death and NOT moving the Citadel would be incredibly idiotic. "Yes, let's leave the key to our destruction where anyone can get to it. That's a brilliant move." The only smart option for the Reapers would be to move it. It wasn't out of fear, it was out of tactical reasoning. They are machines after all.

Next, I don't feel that Harbinger goes into "panic mode" when he goes to defend the conduit. He just did what was smart and defended it. And in the end, didn't do what you claim he meant to do, kill Shepard. He blasts Shepard, and then just ups and leaves.

I, personally, can't understand how if he wants Shepard dead so badly, he doesn't make sure that Shepard is dead in any way. I asked a question before, which you neglected to respond to as it may have just been percieved as hypothetical, but again, why wouldn't he shoot him again? Or at least make sure he's dead.

After completing this response, I realize that other may have said this, as it took me a while to get over my initial taking everything personally phase (which I do as a sensitive individual, thus had to give myself a breather).

I’m going to jump in here but isn’t it speculated in the
game that the reapers are using the citadel to create another reaper? If that
is the case they may not have been so much worried about the citadel as much as
moving it from planet to planet for expedience. Taking the citadel to Earth is
a lot faster than taking humans to the citadel if they were trying to make a
new reaper.

Modifié par soull2, 14 mars 2012 - 08:54 .

[VvAndromedavV]

killnoob wrote...

Right, except you don't see harbringers anywhere when you see Shepard waking up from the ribble.

nor do you hear any noise indicating that he is nearby.

Harby simply left a massive threat to his existence lying in some rubbles without a care.

If that isn't stupidity, then I don't know what is.

As I (and some others) have mentioned, fiction is rife with the idea of a villain being undone by their own hubris (or stupidity).

No, you don't see any Reapers anywhere when you see Shepard waking up. That doesn't necessarily mean Harbinger left Earth with Shepard alive.

I mean, the clip is literally 2 seconds long, and in that 2 seconds all you can see is Shepard's helmet and rubble. All you can hear is a single breath and then fade to black. Maybe in 2 seconds the player didn't see or hear everything that was happening around Shepard.

Modifié par VvAndromedavV, 14 mars 2012 - 08:56 .