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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#11926
RobT2012

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AM94 wrote...

VvAndromedavV wrote...

When I finished the game it was my interpretation at the time that the ending sequence was Harbinger's attempt to indoctrinate Shepard, and that unless you choose "destroy" you end up dead and/or indoctrinated.

It wasn't until I saw the outrage online that I realized most people did not interpret it this way.

It remains my opinion that the ending was a indoctrination-induced hallucination. Some people say it's grasping at straws but I think the evidence for it is actually there, and not after-the-fact wishful thinking by fans disappointed by the ending.

That being said, without an official word from Bioware, all interpretations of the ending will be speculation.

The only reason why I'm not fully satisfied with the "indoctrination theory" is that, if it's true, and the "good" ending is Shepard waking up in the rubble in London after resisting indoctrination, it's not really over, is it?

Which means that Bioware will inevitably release a paid DLC to tell the end of the story since they purposefully left the ending of ME3 off the actual disc. If this happens it will be an unprecedented middle finger from EA/Biowave to anyone who's invested hundreds of hours into the ME trilogy.

Edited to add: There is a debate as to why Harbinger would try to indoctrinate Shepard as opposed to outright killing her. I've seen a few possible explanations for this, but one I haven't seen is this: at one point in ME3 Liara says it will "take about 100 years" for the Reapers to end the current cycle.

Now, given the destruction they caused during the course of ME3, I have no idea how or why it would take them 100 years to finish the task---it made no sense to me at the time and makes no sense to me now---but that seems to be the writer's opinion given what Liara says in-game. If that is the case, wouldn't Shepard be more useful as a Reaper tool than a corpse?

I mean Shepard is a galactic hero. It would be demoralizing to the organics to know she died and failed to kill the Reapers, yes, but I think it would be more demoralizing to see Shepard as a Reaper tool.


The reason it would take 100 years is because the Reapers only really effected homeworlds that were massive population centers. They largely avoided outer colonies during the initial attack so that they could deal with them later since they likely wouldnt be able to prepare enough to become a threat.  We dont really know how much of the galaxy is colonized and in order to rid the galaxy of advanced civilizations they would have to systematically hunt through all of the worlds colonized by advanced civilization until the races were extinct or removed of any chance of rebuilding for a long enough time. Searching through these worlds could take decades because the galaxy is so vast and if only 100 out of a trillion survived, they would be able to rebuild overtime which the Reapers had to ensure didnt happen.


lets not forget, the reapers do NOT want to just kill all high level organic life. They want to grind you up to make their bread!! The cycle of destruction is the reaper reproduction cycle, they use the harvested organics to build new reapers. That takes time. ME2 collectors had been taking colonists for 2 years and still only had a single halfbuilt reaper in their base. and collectors were full on reaper agents with total access to all reaper tech.

#11927
GimmeDaGun

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Some twittering with the devs - are we trolled or they are up to something that will blow us all away?

User 1: "I still want to believe you guys are sneaky trolls and have something going on you don't tell us yet. Can I get a cryptic reply?"
@masseffect: "The sun, it shines. www.youtube.com/watch"


User 2: "You are either a massive sadist or a beacon of hope."
@masseffect: "Can't it be both?"


User 3: "I kinda feel lost after that ending...not what I expected and left me feeling everything done was for nothing."
@masseffect: "We know it's a lot to take in! But hang in there. Your decisions matter."


User 4: "Are you holding something back, that could quell the large amount of frustration from the community, a tiny hint would be enough."
@masseffect: "Mike Gamble already said on his twitter, if the fans knew what was in store, the reaction would be different."


User 5: "I loved 98% of ME3..but something has to be up w/ ending..too much talent at BW for that business. Keep my saves?"
@masseffect: "We're keeping our saves, that's for sure."


User 6: "Fans are people too. Playing with their minds isn't that nice as it may look like to people from Bioware."
@masseffect: "We're not playing with anyone's minds, we are answering what questions we can and recording what feedback we receive."


User 7: "Its not that the ending was taken in the wrong direction its that it makes NO SENSE. Ashley was on the Normandy? she [was] with me."
@masseffect: "Probably a good thing to be cautious of."


User 8: "Do y'all have any ETA when more news will be released? Dying for news on a new ending/DLC."
@masseffect: "No ETA yet, but you will be updated via Facebook and Twitter when the news is available :)."

And some more:

User 1 -Well, i think i'll stop naggin you and trying to get you to talk about the indoctrination theory. :( Good game though!
Merizan - I want people to make up their own minds right now, then when more people have played we'll talk :)

User 2 - then I want to SEE that he was lying. I want to get up and finish the fight with Commander Shepard. Then retire.
Merizan - augh. want. to. discuss! Staying spoiler free for now :P

User 3 - But should've confronted the kid instead. Shep went meekly into the night.
Merizan - are you sure he went meekly into the night?

#11928
UKillMeLongTime

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those tweets are setting us up for something. It's not random 'chat' it's a friggin' script basically or throwing crumbs to us 100%

#11929
Noob451

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GimmeDaGun wrote...

Some twittering with the devs - are we trolled or they are up to something that will blow us all away?

User 1: "I still want to believe you guys are sneaky trolls and have something going on you don't tell us yet. Can I get a cryptic reply?"
@masseffect: "The sun, it shines. www.youtube.com/watch"


User 2: "You are either a massive sadist or a beacon of hope."
@masseffect: "Can't it be both?"


User 3: "I kinda feel lost after that ending...not what I expected and left me feeling everything done was for nothing."
@masseffect: "We know it's a lot to take in! But hang in there. Your decisions matter."


User 4: "Are you holding something back, that could quell the large amount of frustration from the community, a tiny hint would be enough."
@masseffect: "Mike Gamble already said on his twitter, if the fans knew what was in store, the reaction would be different."


User 5: "I loved 98% of ME3..but something has to be up w/ ending..too much talent at BW for that business. Keep my saves?"
@masseffect: "We're keeping our saves, that's for sure."


User 6: "Fans are people too. Playing with their minds isn't that nice as it may look like to people from Bioware."
@masseffect: "We're not playing with anyone's minds, we are answering what questions we can and recording what feedback we receive."


User 7: "Its not that the ending was taken in the wrong direction its that it makes NO SENSE. Ashley was on the Normandy? she [was] with me."
@masseffect: "Probably a good thing to be cautious of."


User 8: "Do y'all have any ETA when more news will be released? Dying for news on a new ending/DLC."
@masseffect: "No ETA yet, but you will be updated via Facebook and Twitter when the news is available :)."

And some more:

User 1 -Well, i think i'll stop naggin you and trying to get you to talk about the indoctrination theory. :( Good game though!
Merizan - I want people to make up their own minds right now, then when more people have played we'll talk :)

User 2 - then I want to SEE that he was lying. I want to get up and finish the fight with Commander Shepard. Then retire.
Merizan - augh. want. to. discuss! Staying spoiler free for now :P

User 3 - But should've confronted the kid instead. Shep went meekly into the night.
Merizan - are you sure he went meekly into the night?


confirms...something...

#11930
daviddata1

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GimmeDaGun wrote...

Some twittering with the devs - are we trolled or they are up to something that will blow us all away?

User 1: "I still want to believe you guys are sneaky trolls and have something going on you don't tell us yet. Can I get a cryptic reply?"
@masseffect: "The sun, it shines. www.youtube.com/watch"


User 2: "You are either a massive sadist or a beacon of hope."
@masseffect: "Can't it be both?"


User 3: "I kinda feel lost after that ending...not what I expected and left me feeling everything done was for nothing."
@masseffect: "We know it's a lot to take in! But hang in there. Your decisions matter."


User 4: "Are you holding something back, that could quell the large amount of frustration from the community, a tiny hint would be enough."
@masseffect: "Mike Gamble already said on his twitter, if the fans knew what was in store, the reaction would be different."


User 5: "I loved 98% of ME3..but something has to be up w/ ending..too much talent at BW for that business. Keep my saves?"
@masseffect: "We're keeping our saves, that's for sure."


User 6: "Fans are people too. Playing with their minds isn't that nice as it may look like to people from Bioware."
@masseffect: "We're not playing with anyone's minds, we are answering what questions we can and recording what feedback we receive."


User 7: "Its not that the ending was taken in the wrong direction its that it makes NO SENSE. Ashley was on the Normandy? she [was] with me."
@masseffect: "Probably a good thing to be cautious of."


User 8: "Do y'all have any ETA when more news will be released? Dying for news on a new ending/DLC."
@masseffect: "No ETA yet, but you will be updated via Facebook and Twitter when the news is available :)."

And some more:

User 1 -Well, i think i'll stop naggin you and trying to get you to talk about the indoctrination theory. :( Good game though!
Merizan - I want people to make up their own minds right now, then when more people have played we'll talk :)

User 2 - then I want to SEE that he was lying. I want to get up and finish the fight with Commander Shepard. Then retire.
Merizan - augh. want. to. discuss! Staying spoiler free for now :P

User 3 - But should've confronted the kid instead. Shep went meekly into the night.
Merizan - are you sure he went meekly into the night?


1+ :D

#11931
Nighthunteer

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Take a look at this! Look at the eyes!
Posted Image

My thread:
http://social.biowar...47065/1#9948507

Modifié par Nighthunteer, 14 mars 2012 - 09:00 .


#11932
MissMaster_2

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VvAndromedavV wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Right, except you don't see harbringers anywhere when you see Shepard waking up from the ribble.

nor do you hear any noise indicating that he is nearby.

Harby simply left a massive threat to his existence lying in some rubbles without a care.

If that isn't stupidity, then I don't know what is.


As I (and some others) have mentioned, fiction is rife with the idea of a villain being undone by their own hubris (or stupidity).

No, you don't see any Reapers anywhere when you see Shepard waking up. That doesn't necessarily mean Harbinger left Earth with Shepard alive.

I mean, the clip is literally 2 seconds long, and in that 2 seconds all you can see is Shepard's helmet and rubble. All you can hear is a single breath and then fade to black. Maybe in 2 seconds the player didn't see or hear everything that was happening around Shepard.


I don't think you see anything but Shepard's chest and dog tags.

#11933
crimsontotem

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Nighthunteer wrote...

Take a look at this! Look at the eyes!
Posted Image

My thread:
http://social.biowar...47065/1#9948507


If you can add Saren's final form of indoctrination, that will be perfect... I would love to but I do not know a thing about photoshopping...

#11934
Elenterx

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It's up, Video where you can hear TIM whispering "Shepard" during dream sequence :)

Modifié par Elenterx, 14 mars 2012 - 09:02 .


#11935
Noob451

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Nighthunteer wrote...

Take a look at this! Look at the eyes!
Posted Image

My thread:
http://social.biowar...47065/1#9948507


beautiful picture!

#11936
Nighthunteer

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crimsontotem wrote...

Nighthunteer wrote...

Take a look at this! Look at the eyes!
Posted Image

My thread:
http://social.biowar...47065/1#9948507


If you can add Saren's final form of indoctrination, that will be perfect... I would love to but I do not know a thing about photoshopping...


I do have the document open, on it now!
EDIT: Sarens final form seemed to only have glowing red eyes - impossible to tell, but checking out the ME 3 husk now to see if they are the same.

Modifié par Nighthunteer, 14 mars 2012 - 09:05 .


#11937
Tailen

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soull2 wrote...

I’m going to jump in here but isn’t it speculated in the
game that the reapers are using the citadel to create another reaper? If that
is the case they may not have been so much worried about the citadel as much as
moving it from planet to planet for expedience. Taking the citadel to Earth is
a lot faster than taking humans to the citadel if they were trying to make a
new reaper.




Interesting.  Do we know how Reapers are made?  Sorry, I'm not a lore nut, but I would assume that's an unknown.

Is the Citadel their tool to make Reapers?  Perhaps they make one every cycle, so each individual Reaper represents a full cycle?  That's a sickening thought...

#11938
Serlith_

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Got plenty of him. 2:20 gives the best view.

#11939
noobcannon

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killnoob wrote...

Debi-Tage wrote...



For some reason Harby obviously wants Shepard alive. That has already been established in the last 400 pages through various lines of evidence. I will not rehash them here because the OPs of those posts state them more elloquently than I can restate right now.

Secondly,  I know you are hung up on the cinematics but what if those are what actually following the "real" ending. For instance, whatever choice you made, let's say destroy, then you are waking up in the rubble - FILL IN THE BLANK (future DLC, unlocks, whatever) then FAST FORWARD to the very end of the game - perhaps whatever is released will tie it all together? Suppose what you are seeing is not a linear progression but the true end story is what is missing in between.


Trust me, If  that as been established in the last 400 pages, I would know as I was responsible for like 300 of them.
With that said, you're not actually responding to my arguement, you're dodging it by saying other's have already explained in the last 400 pages, and you're treating them as if no one has ever tried to prove them wrong.

Simply answer:

If the reapers are arrogant enough to still want Separd alive after seeing him unconcious,

Why do they even relocated the citadel?

They want to preserve their own existence by stopping the crucible getting used

But at the same time,

They are interested in ONE mere human enough to not shoot him dead when they have the chance, and basically allows him to get to the crucible, when said human has defeated them again and again in the past?

That doesn't seem strange to you?


it was my understanding they didnt know the crucible was there or even aware it existed. as soon as shepard destroys the reaper destoryer on earth the flagships rush to the beam. thats when they bring in the crucible. not saying this is right or wrong, just that's what i interpreted when i played through it and i could very well have missed something.

#11940
H3xTech

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Elenterx wrote...

It's up, Video where you can hear TIM whispering "Shepard" during dream sequence :)

Damn, that really sounds TIM, interesting.

#11941
De1ta G

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It seems that maybe, this is what I got out of the twitter responses anyway, BioWare wasn't sure how to end the Mass Effect Trilogy so they gave us what we got and planned to listen to what the fans want. Risky but possible.

#11942
Gordulan

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The longer this "debate" goes on the more I suspect there's a portion of content that was intentionally removed from the disc to be passed out to everyone at a later date, all this hype is just drawing more and more attention towards ME3.

#11943
noobcannon

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Tailen wrote...

soull2 wrote...

I’m going to jump in here but isn’t it speculated in the
game that the reapers are using the citadel to create another reaper? If that
is the case they may not have been so much worried about the citadel as much as
moving it from planet to planet for expedience. Taking the citadel to Earth is
a lot faster than taking humans to the citadel if they were trying to make a
new reaper.




Interesting.  Do we know how Reapers are made?  Sorry, I'm not a lore nut, but I would assume that's an unknown.

Is the Citadel their tool to make Reapers?  Perhaps they make one every cycle, so each individual Reaper represents a full cycle?  That's a sickening thought...


cool to think about though. think of all those reapers. one for every 50,000 years.

#11944
eclipso621

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Wow i just seen the final console in the illusive man's base. I didn't notice it my first playthrough. The only reason he even got indoctrinated was because he implemented the tech from sanctuary into himself.

#11945
frajerik

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Elenterx wrote...

It's up, Video where you can hear TIM whispering "Shepard" during dream sequence :)


0:53 isnt TIM and its proves nothing. In dream sequences you hear all friends and other ppl too. You worked with TIM in ME2.

#11946
Thermorium

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eclipso621 wrote...

Wow i just seen the final console in the illusive man's base. I didn't notice it my first playthrough. The only reason he even got indoctrinated was because he implemented the tech from sanctuary into himself.


Well, that probably helped, but in one of the graphics novels, it is shown he has been in contact with a reaper artifact before (sometime during the war with the Turians)

#11947
Elenterx

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frajerik wrote...

Elenterx wrote...

It's up, Video where you can hear TIM whispering "Shepard" during dream sequence :)


0:53 isnt TIM and its proves nothing. In dream sequences you hear all friends and other ppl too. You worked with TIM in ME2.


How is that not TIM?

All the people you hear whispering were squadmates, TIM was never a squadmate and he was never really "close" to shepard.

Modifié par Elenterx, 14 mars 2012 - 09:08 .


#11948
crimsontotem

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Nighthunteer wrote...

crimsontotem wrote...

Nighthunteer wrote...

Take a look at this! Look at the eyes!
Posted Image

My thread:
http://social.biowar...47065/1#9948507


If you can add Saren's final form of indoctrination, that will be perfect... I would love to but I do not know a thing about photoshopping...


I do have the document open, on it now!
EDIT: Sarens final form seemed to only have glowing red eyes - impossible to tell, but checking out the ME 3 husk now to see if they are the same.


my bad i meant final form before he became super husk... u know when we met him again at the citadel

#11949
Serlith_

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noobcannon wrote...

Tailen wrote...

soull2 wrote...

I’m going to jump in here but isn’t it speculated in the
game that the reapers are using the citadel to create another reaper? If that
is the case they may not have been so much worried about the citadel as much as
moving it from planet to planet for expedience. Taking the citadel to Earth is
a lot faster than taking humans to the citadel if they were trying to make a
new reaper.




Interesting.  Do we know how Reapers are made?  Sorry, I'm not a lore nut, but I would assume that's an unknown.

Is the Citadel their tool to make Reapers?  Perhaps they make one every cycle, so each individual Reaper represents a full cycle?  That's a sickening thought...


cool to think about though. think of all those reapers. one for every 50,000 years.


Is not. If you played the ME2 nad read the lore, you actually know that each one of the Reapers is made from a different race, one for every one of the destroyed ones. That's how they "preserve" them. That's why the Collectors went and collected humans from all around the galaxy in ME2.

#11950
noobcannon

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eclipso621 wrote...

Wow i just seen the final console in the illusive man's base. I didn't notice it my first playthrough. The only reason he even got indoctrinated was because he implemented the tech from sanctuary into himself.


yeah i caught it on my first playthrough but forgot about it on my second. pretty easy to miss.