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[Lemondish]

simfamSP wrote...

H3xTech wrote...

Elenterx wrote...

It's up, Video where you can hear TIM whispering "Shepard" during dream sequence

Damn, that really sounds TIM, interesting.

I think people are misinterpreting these dreams. They are nightmares, and not a process of indocrination. Though the codex clearly says that it is, I don't see any signs of it being that. To me they are dreams that reflect on Shepard's mind. These shadows aren't some ghosty things, but shades of the past, the fallen, all that have given their lives, all that have suffered... the more you go into these dreams the more shades there are because the more people have died.

But unless they are there, soley to inflict as my phsycological damage as possible, then I would agree: it is indoctrination. Trying to weaken Shepard's resolve further and further until he finally cracks.

They happen only after direct contact with a Reaper. After leaving the Sol system. After fighting one on Tuchanka. After fighting one on Rannoch. Perhaps this is important?

Furthermore, I think the fact that the dreams exhibit the same attributes of indoctrination is proof positive of the effect. 

[Rhod747]

Serlith_ wrote...

FridgeRaider88 wrote...

Serlith_ wrote...

You see...

the Crucible is a prothean design

Is not.

Sure, I know the plans for the Crucible passed down through various cycles but the plans were from the prothean archives, so who knows what changes they would have made to it from the version they had received from the cycle before theirs?

In fact, the VI on Thessia tells us, that they only were making it from the blueprints they found.
But on the other hand, somewhere was said that the Crucible was slightly modified in course of cycles...
Gotta check, but I'm too sleepy today.
Can someone confirm the info about the Crucible?

I'm sure the VI said that each cycle a new race would add to the design, or something like that.

[lodgik]

I have read a few other topic today and I saw the twitter of some people and a a review with some twitter info on it. That combine with the app int after the game end and all the things we discovered in this topics made me think of something.

What if bioware planed this all along, the knew they were going to release a dlc and they also knew that the ending wasn't what we expected. What if Bioware just wanted us to react to the ending with the only 3 option availlable to us accept the ending/ indecisiveness and outright reject seems familiar

Bioware employer telling us not to give up, the app with message from your LI to hang in there.....
If it's true i Don't know were they want to with it but it shure is working

[Lemondish]

Rhod747 wrote...

Serlith_ wrote...

FridgeRaider88 wrote...

Serlith_ wrote...

You see...

the Crucible is a prothean design

Is not.

Sure, I know the plans for the Crucible passed down through various cycles but the plans were from the prothean archives, so who knows what changes they would have made to it from the version they had received from the cycle before theirs?

In fact, the VI on Thessia tells us, that they only were making it from the blueprints they found.
But on the other hand, somewhere was said that the Crucible was slightly modified in course of cycles...
Gotta check, but I'm too sleepy today.
Can someone confirm the info about the Crucible?

I'm sure the VI said that each cycle a new race would add to the design, or something like that.

Correct. I believe he also said that it wasn't until their cycle that the Catalyst became the Citadel, designed by the Reapers and used as a conduit for their undoing.

[Noob451]

now this i'm not sure of but....
when harbinger's beam hits, the screen flashes white.

when you begin to go up on the magic elevator, screen flashes white.


eh most likely just a coincidence, but still.

[JediNg]

Auresta wrote...

Everyone, calm your ******. The "wheels" on the Citadel seem more for aesthetic purposes than anything. We don't want to be desperate fanatics (and we already seem like that). Question evidence and don't latch on to anything, please. 

I'm with you.

[Mallissin]

Mallissin wrote...

New theory.

Harbinger swoops in and starts firing at everything, as well as attempting to indoctrinate everything in sight. Only you and Anderson are able to resist (because you're both badasses).

The entire sequence after being hit by Harbinger's weapons fire, you are caught in an indoctrination dream with Anderson. TIM joins it using the powers he either learned from his experiments or from abilities given to him by the Reapers (a la Saren).

But in reality, you're really still fighting to walk into the beam up to the Citadel.

So, your choices:

Destroy the Reapers: You break from the indoctrination but you're still on Earth and Harbinger has been destroyed (you won the mind game, Harbinger dies because TIM died).

Synthesis: You fearlessly walked into the beam where you think you'll die but instead you awake on the Citadel.

Control: You wake up and Harbinger starts firing on the other Reapers, clearing the way for you into the beam, since you not only won the mind game but took over TIM's powers when you defeated him.

Seems reasonable, all paths would lead to another ending.

The Stargazer hints that the story isn't finished.

Further idea, Anderson isn't really there. TIM brought him into the dream as a hostage to try to convince you to stop or lose faith. Anderson is still alive, trying to make his way into the beam as well and makes it to your surprise (helping you realize it was all a dream).

[wryterra]

simfamSP wrote...

H3xTech wrote...

Elenterx wrote...

It's up, Video where you can hear TIM whispering "Shepard" during dream sequence

Damn, that really sounds TIM, interesting.

I think people are misinterpreting these dreams. They are nightmares, and not a process of indocrination. Though the codex clearly says that it is, I don't see any signs of it being that. To me they are dreams that reflect on Shepard's mind. These shadows aren't some ghosty things, but shades of the past, the fallen, all that have given their lives, all that have suffered... the more you go into these dreams the more shades there are because the more people have died.

But unless they are there, soley to inflict as my phsycological damage as possible, then I would agree: it is indoctrination. Trying to weaken Shepard's resolve further and further until he finally cracks.

Two games in a row people suffering indoctrination have complained about bad dreams. 

[Lemondish]

JediNg wrote...

Auresta wrote...

Everyone, calm your ******. The "wheels" on the Citadel seem more for aesthetic purposes than anything. We don't want to be desperate fanatics (and we already seem like that). Question evidence and don't latch on to anything, please. 

I'm with you.

Aethetic purposes...maybe...if it was mirrored on the other side. Its suspect, though nowhere close to concrete.

[wryterra]

Mallissin wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

New theory.

Harbinger swoops in and starts firing at everything, as well as attempting to indoctrinate everything in sight. Only you and Anderson are able to resist (because you're both badasses).

The entire sequence after being hit by Harbinger's weapons fire, you are caught in an indoctrination dream with Anderson. TIM joins it using the powers he either learned from his experiments or from abilities given to him by the Reapers (a la Saren).

But in reality, you're really still fighting to walk into the beam up to the Citadel.

So, your choices:

Destroy the Reapers: You break from the indoctrination but you're still on Earth and Harbinger has been destroyed (you won the mind game, Harbinger dies because TIM died).

Synthesis: You fearlessly walked into the beam where you think you'll die but instead you awake on the Citadel.

Control: You wake up and Harbinger starts firing on the other Reapers, clearing the way for you into the beam, since you not only won the mind game but took over TIM's powers when you defeated him.

Seems reasonable, all paths would lead to another ending.

The Stargazer hints that the story isn't finished.

Further idea, Anderson isn't really there. TIM brought him into the dream as a hostage to try to convince you to stop or lose faith. Anderson is still alive, trying to make his way into the beam as well and makes it to your surprise (helping you realize it was all a dream).

I believe neither Anderson or TIM are there. They are the angel and devil on your shoulders. 

Anderson is 'shot' but not wounded whilst Shepard is spewing blood. TIM is more monstrous than ever but his eyes clear up to brilliant blue as he dies looking at his 'perfect' earth. Neither has a sense of reality or authenticity. 

[Koobarex]

wryterra wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

H3xTech wrote...

Elenterx wrote...

It's up, Video where you can hear TIM whispering "Shepard" during dream sequence

Damn, that really sounds TIM, interesting.

I think people are misinterpreting these dreams. They are nightmares, and not a process of indocrination. Though the codex clearly says that it is, I don't see any signs of it being that. To me they are dreams that reflect on Shepard's mind. These shadows aren't some ghosty things, but shades of the past, the fallen, all that have given their lives, all that have suffered... the more you go into these dreams the more shades there are because the more people have died.

But unless they are there, soley to inflict as my phsycological damage as possible, then I would agree: it is indoctrination. Trying to weaken Shepard's resolve further and further until he finally cracks.

Two games in a row people suffering indoctrination have complained about bad dreams. 

Yep. Dreams and voices... Remember those voices in your dreams, of people long dead, showing you how costly this battle is?

Come, Shepard, succumb... Succumb...

[Auresta]

Lemondish wrote...

JediNg wrote...

Auresta wrote...

Everyone, calm your ******. The "wheels" on the Citadel seem more for aesthetic purposes than anything. We don't want to be desperate fanatics (and we already seem like that). Question evidence and don't latch on to anything, please. 

I'm with you.

Aethetic purposes...maybe...if it was mirrored on the other side. Its suspect, though nowhere close to concrete.

Suspect, but nowhere close to concrete. We need to keep that in mind for all pieces of evidence. I'm tired of people saying "THIS PROVES IT11!1!!!" without even considering further the implications of said evidence.

[Lemondish]

wryterra wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

New theory.

Harbinger swoops in and starts firing at everything, as well as attempting to indoctrinate everything in sight. Only you and Anderson are able to resist (because you're both badasses).

The entire sequence after being hit by Harbinger's weapons fire, you are caught in an indoctrination dream with Anderson. TIM joins it using the powers he either learned from his experiments or from abilities given to him by the Reapers (a la Saren).

But in reality, you're really still fighting to walk into the beam up to the Citadel.

So, your choices:

Destroy the Reapers: You break from the indoctrination but you're still on Earth and Harbinger has been destroyed (you won the mind game, Harbinger dies because TIM died).

Synthesis: You fearlessly walked into the beam where you think you'll die but instead you awake on the Citadel.

Control: You wake up and Harbinger starts firing on the other Reapers, clearing the way for you into the beam, since you not only won the mind game but took over TIM's powers when you defeated him.

Seems reasonable, all paths would lead to another ending.

The Stargazer hints that the story isn't finished.

Further idea, Anderson isn't really there. TIM brought him into the dream as a hostage to try to convince you to stop or lose faith. Anderson is still alive, trying to make his way into the beam as well and makes it to your surprise (helping you realize it was all a dream).

I believe neither Anderson or TIM are there. They are the angel and devil on your shoulders. 

Anderson is 'shot' but not wounded whilst Shepard is spewing blood. TIM is more monstrous than ever but his eyes clear up to brilliant blue as he dies looking at his 'perfect' earth. Neither has a sense of reality or authenticity. 

And each is associated with the opposite ending and 'reputation colour' that their personalities would have associated them. Anderson is most certainly a Paragon choice, yet he is shown to you as choosing the 'red' option. Red and blue have been hugely symbollic colours in this series for three games now.

[Lemondish]

Auresta wrote...

Lemondish wrote...

JediNg wrote...

Auresta wrote...

Everyone, calm your ******. The "wheels" on the Citadel seem more for aesthetic purposes than anything. We don't want to be desperate fanatics (and we already seem like that). Question evidence and don't latch on to anything, please. 

I'm with you.

Aethetic purposes...maybe...if it was mirrored on the other side. Its suspect, though nowhere close to concrete.

Suspect, but nowhere close to concrete. We need to keep that in mind for all pieces of evidence. I'm tired of people saying "THIS PROVES IT11!1!!!" without even considering further the implications of said evidence.

Confirmation bias is all too common, but it sure is difficult to question things...it means you have to admit you may be wrong.

[wryterra]

Lemondish wrote...

wryterra wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

New theory.

Harbinger swoops in and starts firing at everything, as well as attempting to indoctrinate everything in sight. Only you and Anderson are able to resist (because you're both badasses).

The entire sequence after being hit by Harbinger's weapons fire, you are caught in an indoctrination dream with Anderson. TIM joins it using the powers he either learned from his experiments or from abilities given to him by the Reapers (a la Saren).

But in reality, you're really still fighting to walk into the beam up to the Citadel.

So, your choices:

Destroy the Reapers: You break from the indoctrination but you're still on Earth and Harbinger has been destroyed (you won the mind game, Harbinger dies because TIM died).

Synthesis: You fearlessly walked into the beam where you think you'll die but instead you awake on the Citadel.

Control: You wake up and Harbinger starts firing on the other Reapers, clearing the way for you into the beam, since you not only won the mind game but took over TIM's powers when you defeated him.

Seems reasonable, all paths would lead to another ending.

The Stargazer hints that the story isn't finished.

Further idea, Anderson isn't really there. TIM brought him into the dream as a hostage to try to convince you to stop or lose faith. Anderson is still alive, trying to make his way into the beam as well and makes it to your surprise (helping you realize it was all a dream).

I believe neither Anderson or TIM are there. They are the angel and devil on your shoulders. 

Anderson is 'shot' but not wounded whilst Shepard is spewing blood. TIM is more monstrous than ever but his eyes clear up to brilliant blue as he dies looking at his 'perfect' earth. Neither has a sense of reality or authenticity. 

And each is associated with the opposite ending and 'reputation colour' that their personalities would have associated them. Anderson is most certainly a Paragon choice, yet he is shown to you as choosing the 'red' option. Red and blue have been hugely symbollic colours in this series for three games now.

So much so that you could say the player now has a conditioned response. Conditioning is a key word here. 

[ProdigalMaster]

Auresta wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Nighthunteer wrote...


I put them together for you all!
Well done OP that got them!

mind= BLOWN TO THY KINGDOM COME!!!

Everyone, calm your ******. The "wheels" on the Citadel seem more for aesthetic purposes than anything. We don't want to be desperate fanatics (and we already seem like that). Question evidence and don't latch on to anything, please. 

Oh I agree completely, this might all be pure coincidence and ultimately a stretch.

Also, because someone pointed that out, yes there is also an overturned Mako on the other side but my mpression was that it was far less visible when playing, if one just pushed toward the beam of light like crazy, while high on adrenalin (I know I did). Oddly enough I instantly had an odd feeling that I'm looking at the exact same beem of light I was chasing towards the moment I saw it during the dialogue with the god-child projecton. So I decided to look for other possible patterns in the areas, and I simply posted what I found.

Just patterns, make of them what you will.

Modifié par ProdigalMaster, 14 mars 2012 - 10:15 .

[Almostfaceman]

Bioware is hinting about the ending being affected. When this series of tweets come together a message is definitely being conveyed. I didn't believe at all in the indoctrination theory or hallucinations, but, something is up in that direction methinks.

http://social.biowar...ndex/9934885/15



User 1: "I still want to believe you guys are sneaky trolls and have something going on you don't tell us yet. Can I get a cryptic reply?"
@masseffect: "The sun, it shines. www.youtube.com/watch"

User 2: "You are either a massive sadist or a beacon of hope."
@masseffect: "Can't it be both?"

User 3: "I kinda feel lost after that ending...not what I expected and left me feeling everything done was for nothing."
@masseffect: "We know it's a lot to take in! But hang in there. Your decisions matter."

User 4: "Are you holding something back, that could quell the large amount of frustration from the community, a tiny hint would be enough."
@masseffect: "Mike Gamble already said on his twitter, if the fans knew what was in store, the reaction would be different."

User 5: "I loved 98% of ME3..but something has to be up w/ ending..too much talent at BW for that business. Keep my saves?"
@masseffect: "We're keeping our saves, that's for sure."

User 6: "Fans are people too. Playing with their minds isn't that nice as it may look like to people from Bioware."
@masseffect: "We're not playing with anyone's minds, we are answering what questions we can and recording what feedback we receive."

User 7: "Its not that the ending was taken in the wrong direction its that it makes NO SENSE. Ashley was on the Normandy? she [was] with me."
@masseffect: "Probably a good thing to be cautious of."

User 8: "Do y'all have any ETA when more news will be released? Dying for news on a new ending/DLC."
@masseffect: "No ETA yet, but you will be updated via Facebook and Twitter when the news is available ."

And some more:

User 1 -Well, i think i'll stop naggin you and trying to get you to talk about the indoctrination theory. Good game though!
Merizan - I want people to make up their own minds right now, then when more people have played we'll talk

User 2 - then I want to SEE that he was lying. I want to get up and finish the fight with Commander Shepard. Then retire.
Merizan - augh. want. to. discuss! Staying spoiler free for now

User 3 - But should've confronted the kid instead. Shep went meekly into the night.
Merizan - are you sure he went meekly into the night?

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 14 mars 2012 - 10:17 .

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Tygur wrote...

smargh1015 wrote...

Nighthunteer wrote...


I put them together for you all!
Well done OP that got them!

what does this mean?

Think too much is being read into this. Of course the beam would look the same, its the same beam. And for the wheels, the number is wrong, its a common design element, and I think its just a stretch.

Collector base
Jungle planet
Shadowbroker
Now this

Everything hints at the entire thing is made from Shepards own memory. At this point Im willing to bet a kidney that the indoctrination theory is true.

[Empiro3]

vrumpt wrote...

Auresta wrote...

vrumpt wrote...

Question: has it been determined under what conditions the god child greets Shepard with "What are you doing here?" and "Wake up."? I feel like if those are only dependent on EMS score then this theory is confirmed.

Bumping but supposedly it is only based on EMS. And it doesn't necessarily prove anything, so hold your horses.

I think for me it proves that the ending was deliberatly set up this way instead of just the planets aligning at the mercy of bad writing.  2 peices of intentional conditonal evidence is all we need.  Shepard waking up at the end of the destory option is the first.

I had a friend check this out. He had ~3400 EMS and got the "wake up" line, even though he never sees the breathing scene at the end when choosing destroy.

[Lemondish]

wryterra wrote...

Lemondish wrote...

wryterra wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

New theory.

Harbinger swoops in and starts firing at everything, as well as attempting to indoctrinate everything in sight. Only you and Anderson are able to resist (because you're both badasses).

The entire sequence after being hit by Harbinger's weapons fire, you are caught in an indoctrination dream with Anderson. TIM joins it using the powers he either learned from his experiments or from abilities given to him by the Reapers (a la Saren).

But in reality, you're really still fighting to walk into the beam up to the Citadel.

So, your choices:

Destroy the Reapers: You break from the indoctrination but you're still on Earth and Harbinger has been destroyed (you won the mind game, Harbinger dies because TIM died).

Synthesis: You fearlessly walked into the beam where you think you'll die but instead you awake on the Citadel.

Control: You wake up and Harbinger starts firing on the other Reapers, clearing the way for you into the beam, since you not only won the mind game but took over TIM's powers when you defeated him.

Seems reasonable, all paths would lead to another ending.

The Stargazer hints that the story isn't finished.

Further idea, Anderson isn't really there. TIM brought him into the dream as a hostage to try to convince you to stop or lose faith. Anderson is still alive, trying to make his way into the beam as well and makes it to your surprise (helping you realize it was all a dream).

I believe neither Anderson or TIM are there. They are the angel and devil on your shoulders. 

Anderson is 'shot' but not wounded whilst Shepard is spewing blood. TIM is more monstrous than ever but his eyes clear up to brilliant blue as he dies looking at his 'perfect' earth. Neither has a sense of reality or authenticity. 

And each is associated with the opposite ending and 'reputation colour' that their personalities would have associated them. Anderson is most certainly a Paragon choice, yet he is shown to you as choosing the 'red' option. Red and blue have been hugely symbollic colours in this series for three games now.

So much so that you could say the player now has a conditioned response. Conditioning is a key word here. 

So is player. Many need to recognize that this decision has been removed from the normal sequence of "select > reward" that has so defined gaming. I like to think of this period of unknowing as the hiatus one waits between their favourite show's season finale cliffhanger and the start of a new season.

[shadowspecialist]

I don't remember if this was mentioned, as this thread gets difficult to follow between work and sleep...
In ME1 bits of wreckage crash into the Citadel in the area you fought Saren. This should have vented the interior to the ambient vacuum of space.You can go with either there's a bubble there already or this was an issue BW was willing to overlook for the sake of the story.
In both ME1 and 2, you find Shep under rubble in some form or fashion. There's always a hint that he just might be dead from crashing debris and wreckage, but he has so far pulled out of it. But this only happens after a major battle/boss fight, which we are missing from ME3.

I want to believe its indoc as much as most of us do. However, the headshed in BW have provided a mixed bag of tweets and posts regarding this awful situation we find ourselves in.

[Rhod747]

Empiro3 wrote...

vrumpt wrote...

Auresta wrote...

vrumpt wrote...

Question: has it been determined under what conditions the god child greets Shepard with "What are you doing here?" and "Wake up."? I feel like if those are only dependent on EMS score then this theory is confirmed.

Bumping but supposedly it is only based on EMS. And it doesn't necessarily prove anything, so hold your horses.

I think for me it proves that the ending was deliberatly set up this way instead of just the planets aligning at the mercy of bad writing.  2 peices of intentional conditonal evidence is all we need.  Shepard waking up at the end of the destory option is the first.

I had a friend check this out. He had ~3400 EMS and got the "wake up" line, even though he never sees the breathing scene at the end when choosing destroy.

You need around 4-5k to get the breathing scene after choosing destroy.

[iwillkillfortali]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Tygur wrote...

smargh1015 wrote...

Nighthunteer wrote...


I put them together for you all!
Well done OP that got them!

what does this mean?

Think too much is being read into this. Of course the beam would look the same, its the same beam. And for the wheels, the number is wrong, its a common design element, and I think its just a stretch.

Collector base
Jungle planet
Shadowbroker
Now this

Everything hints at the entire thing is made from Shepards own memory. At this point Im willing to bet a kidney that the indoctrination theory is true.

That jungle planet might be virmire or zorya(i think).

Modifié par iwillkillfortali, 14 mars 2012 - 10:17 .

[JulienJaden]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Some twittering with the devs - are we trolled or they are up to something that will blow us all away?

User 1: "I still want to believe you guys are sneaky trolls and have something going on you don't tell us yet. Can I get a cryptic reply?"
@masseffect: "The sun, it shines. www.youtube.com/watch"


User 2: "You are either a massive sadist or a beacon of hope."
@masseffect: "Can't it be both?"


User 3: "I kinda feel lost after that ending...not what I expected and left me feeling everything done was for nothing."
@masseffect: "We know it's a lot to take in! But hang in there. Your decisions matter."


User 4: "Are you holding something back, that could quell the large amount of frustration from the community, a tiny hint would be enough."
@masseffect: "Mike Gamble already said on his twitter, if the fans knew what was in store, the reaction would be different."


User 5: "I loved 98% of ME3..but something has to be up w/ ending..too much talent at BW for that business. Keep my saves?"
@masseffect: "We're keeping our saves, that's for sure."


User 6: "Fans are people too. Playing with their minds isn't that nice as it may look like to people from Bioware."
@masseffect: "We're not playing with anyone's minds, we are answering what questions we can and recording what feedback we receive."


User 7: "Its not that the ending was taken in the wrong direction its that it makes NO SENSE. Ashley was on the Normandy? she [was] with me."
@masseffect: "Probably a good thing to be cautious of."


User 8: "Do y'all have any ETA when more news will be released? Dying for news on a new ending/DLC."
@masseffect: "No ETA yet, but you will be updated via Facebook and Twitter when the news is available ."

And some more:

User 1 -Well, i think i'll stop naggin you and trying to get you to talk about the indoctrination theory. Good game though!
Merizan - I want people to make up their own minds right now, then when more people have played we'll talk

User 2 - then I want to SEE that he was lying. I want to get up and finish the fight with Commander Shepard. Then retire.
Merizan - augh. want. to. discuss! Staying spoiler free for now

User 3 - But should've confronted the kid instead. Shep went meekly into the night.
Merizan - are you sure he went meekly into the night?

I can't really add anything to this. Something's up. They're not allowed to talk about it yet (we were right about them waiting until more people have finished the game, which could indicate that they'll come clean a few days after the global release),  but there's definitely more. And, since I'm hoping that they know their fans and understand what's actually causing this uproar, I find Gamble's tweet the defining in this bunch. There will be more and it will appease us, or at least that's what the devs believe.