57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Earthborn_Shepard]

camcon2100 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I've arrived at the point where I'd rather imagine the whole indoc theory is true and Shepard just failed and died at the end of the game than accept the actual endings.

Or you know he got up and kicked some reaper ass!

Yeah but you can't get that out of the game. That would be actual fiction, everything else can be interpreted into the actual game.

[LivingHitokiri]

Wasn't bioware themselves stated that they wanted to bring dose of realism in Shepards sacrifice ?
The whole reason why Shepard dies is to give him more weight for the sacrifices he made.
This theory look way over the bridge in my opinion. Sometimes over analysis can lead to delusion, im pretty convinced that bioware had no intention to make it attempt of hallucination/indoctrination. All these last moments look more like some holywood slow motion style of moments which shows the Hero's final moments, like in the movies right,when they see their whole life before their eyes or they see themselves reunited whit the one they lost.

it is nice to hope for something different,in this occasion it is nice to hope that a company like bioware forced such poor written ending for XYZ reasons.

As for the theory, i would like to begin by asking this.
Why didn't Sovereign ever tried to do that to Shepard in ME 1, maybe the prothean beacon protects him from that,maybe there are specific ways for them to control , why reapers in ME 1,2,3 never tried to control anyone else close to Shepard besides ( if ) Shepard, do not count TIM since he himself threw himself with the experiment he did at Horizon. TIM became like Saren after Horizon, which makes himself cheap villain from the way he just suicides and throws all out the window what he build in ME 2 as villain.

I am not trying to crush any hopes or anything, since even with this theory the ending looks pretty crap to me and i have tons of other points that i can bring in other to prove that but did you guys tried to question the points this theory makes?
True some of them make sense and can be justified at some point but, having a picture with 1m1 being in 2 different places and take that as a point of shepard dreams rather a lazy copy paste or rehash of content is quite over IMO.

Modifié par LivingHitokiri, 15 mars 2012 - 01:38 .

[arkhine]

Fame-KIllz wrote...
I didn't even realise it was the same guy until he said something about being in Big Ben!

Haha precisely!  From that point I would stare at his face to try and see the resemblance.

[Fame-KIllz]

camcon2100 wrote...

Fame-KIllz wrote...

lol

http://i.imgur.com/stzbj.jpg

Please stay on topic you could post this in any other thread hating on Bioware.

I't's only a bit of light humour 

[Getorex]

IllusionOfLife wrote...

I just finished the game, and I too found the ending confusing and unsatisfying. This theory certainly makes a lot of sense, and in a way the idea that it was a massive scale swindle is easier to swallow than the idea that BioWare's writers just said "screw it! The End." during the last five minutes.

If this whole idea of BioWare duping their audience into believing a fake ending in order to accomplish some meta sense of indoctrination is unprecedented, ballsy, and, if it works, potentially brilliant and groundbreaking. However, even if this does turn out to be brilliant, having to download the "real" ending as DLC (paid or not) is kind of a dick move.

Here's what happened...

Bioware guys are working on ME3, trying to figure out how it ends.  Deadline is approaching.  EA exec comes in and demands they cut bait and "git 'er done".  They argue that they are still working out how to end the thing.  EA exec says, "Enough!  It's just a damn game.  Stick an ending on it.  Here.  Use this ending."  He hands them the script to Deus Ex: Human Revolution.  Bioware guys say, "Uh, this isn't even remotely the same game." EA exec, "It's an ending.  It's a game and it's an ending.  Use it."  EA exec, "First person who gets this ending shoehorned into ME3 and gets a compiled ME3 on the servers for download gets to use my parking space for a week!"  Bioware guys, " Woohoo! Game ON!"  Bioware guys scramble and the first one to re-jigger the Deus Ex ending into ME 3 and compile and upload it stands at his desk, fists held up, "HAH!  I win!" 

We all lose but at least this guy got a posh parking space for a week.

[tanuki]

arkhine wrote...

IronsteffL wrote...

I heard Ash saying something like "I understand, Commander".

She died at Virmire correct? For me Kaidan died. I think he said something like 'go get them and get out of here Commander!'.

Yup, the one who died speaks. I used VS abbreviation without thinking that it actually implies the living one >.>

[camcon2100]

LivingHitokiri wrote...

Wasn't bioware themselves stated that they wanted to bring dose of realism in Shepards sacrifice ?
The whole reason why Shepard dies is to give him more weight for the sacrifices he made.
This theory look way over the bridge in my opinion. Sometimes over analysis can lead to delusion, im pretty convinced that bioware had no intention to make it attempt of hallucination/indoctrination. All these last moments look more like some holywood slow motion style of moments which shows the Hero's final moments, like in the movies right,when they see their whole life before their eyes or they see themselves reunited whit the one they lost.

it is nice to hope for something different,in this occasion it is nice to hope that a company like bioware forced such poor written ending for XYZ reasons.

As for the theory, i would like to begin by asking this.
Why didn't Sovereign ever tried to do that to Shepard in ME 1, maybe the prothean beacon protects him from that,maybe there are specific ways for them to control , why reapers in ME 1,2,3 never tried to control anyone else close to Shepard besides ( if ) Shepard, do not count TIM since he himself threw himself with the experiment he did at Horizon. TIM became like Saren after Horizon, which makes himself cheap villain from the way he just suicides and throws all out the window what he build in ME 2 as villain.

I am not trying to crush any hopes or anything, since even with this theory the ending looks pretty crap to me and i have tons of other points that i can bring in other to prove that but did you guys tried to question the points this theory makes?
True some of them make sense and can be justified at some point but, having a picture with 1m1 being in 2 different places and take that as a point of shepard dreams rather a lazy copy paste or rehash of content is quite over IMO.

Easy Shepard hadn't killed a Reaper yet. There was no respect for him. Harbinger see's an opportunity. What better way than to turn the organics one beacon, on change to their side. It would be a great victory to indoctrinate Shepard

[Golferguy758]

Hitokiri, in me2 harbinger has an extreme obsession with shepard going so far as to order the collectors to "catch shepard alive if possible" and "i will have your mind, shepard".

Harbinger even talks about shepard to the other reapers. The rannoch one mentions it specifically.

As for why harbinger just now nabs shepard? In priority sanctuary it is down that adrenaline is a hell of a boost to enabling indoctrination. Also fighting off indoctrination requires a lot if willpower. By the end of the game shepard is clearly worn down mentally, this makes it easier to try to subvert him

[njfluffy19]

camcon2100 wrote...

LivingHitokiri wrote...

Wasn't bioware themselves stated that they wanted to bring dose of realism in Shepards sacrifice ?
The whole reason why Shepard dies is to give him more weight for the sacrifices he made.
This theory look way over the bridge in my opinion. Sometimes over analysis can lead to delusion, im pretty convinced that bioware had no intention to make it attempt of hallucination/indoctrination. All these last moments look more like some holywood slow motion style of moments which shows the Hero's final moments, like in the movies right,when they see their whole life before their eyes or they see themselves reunited whit the one they lost.

it is nice to hope for something different,in this occasion it is nice to hope that a company like bioware forced such poor written ending for XYZ reasons.

As for the theory, i would like to begin by asking this.
Why didn't Sovereign ever tried to do that to Shepard in ME 1, maybe the prothean beacon protects him from that,maybe there are specific ways for them to control , why reapers in ME 1,2,3 never tried to control anyone else close to Shepard besides ( if ) Shepard, do not count TIM since he himself threw himself with the experiment he did at Horizon. TIM became like Saren after Horizon, which makes himself cheap villain from the way he just suicides and throws all out the window what he build in ME 2 as villain.

I am not trying to crush any hopes or anything, since even with this theory the ending looks pretty crap to me and i have tons of other points that i can bring in other to prove that but did you guys tried to question the points this theory makes?
True some of them make sense and can be justified at some point but, having a picture with 1m1 being in 2 different places and take that as a point of shepard dreams rather a lazy copy paste or rehash of content is quite over IMO.

Easy Shepard hadn't killed a Reaper yet. There was no respect for him. Harbinger see's an opportunity. What better way than to turn the organics one beacon, on change to their side. It would be a great victory to indoctrinate Shepard

Even in ME2 Harby is always talking about taking Shepard alive because of his/her potential.

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Hitokiri, in me2 harbinger has an extreme obsession with shepard going so far as to order the collectors to "catch shepard alive if possible" and "i will have your mind, shepard".

Harbinger even talks about shepard to the other reapers. The rannoch one mentions it specifically.

As for why harbinger just now nabs shepard? In priority sanctuary it is down that adrenaline is a hell of a boost to enabling indoctrination. Also fighting off indoctrination requires a lot if willpower. By the end of the game shepard is clearly worn down mentally, this makes it easier to try to subvert him

But why would Harbinger need Shepard('s mind) for anything? I don't really see that

[Ghrelt]

Yes, because they would obviously never consider knowing how it ended when they started making the game. (end sarcasm) And that bigshot from EA calling the shots from on high? He founded Bioware. There is so much potential for spinoffs and other games in this franchise, there's no way they'd screw it up so badly that no one would ever want to pay them for more content from the Mass Effect universe. And I'm not talking about $10 ending DLC. I'm talking about making more games that fans would pay $60+ a pop for. You don't cook the goose that laid the golden egg. It's poor business sense.

[Getorex]

Bioware stated this would close the story of Shepard. Closing the story of Shepard doesn't mean, nor require, that Shepard die. It is simple the fact that once the Shepard ME story completes, there is no more story to go with. Shepard detected and defeated THE biggest existential threat to advanced civilizations throughout the galaxy. After that, what possible story could keep the Shepard saga going? Yet MORE Reapers? Reapers of the Reapers? No. There is no more story to tell and you cannot base a new game on the actions of Shepard post Reaper. All he is at that point is a SPECTRE operative who will be dealing with mundane terrorist organizations, assassination plots, smuggling, etc. The stuff that makes up minor DLC missions. You cannot base a continued Shepard story on that stuff and it would be a mistake to try to one up the Reapers. Thus, the Shepard story must end but in no way must it end with his death nor with the wiping out of trans-galactic civilization.

Bioware promised different endings depending on how you played Shepard. They didn't fulfill that clear promise. It's that simple. The ending as it is guarantees that no one will play ME3 more than once. Someone who stockpiled a handful of different Shepards out of ME2 in anticipation of playing them through ME3 wont because...what's the point? No matter what they all will end the precise same way.

ME1 and ME2 were both worth multiple playthroughs. I played ME1 6 times and ME2 8 times. I will be playing ME3, as it stands with the current ending, exactly once and it will be up in the air whether or not I actually finish to get to the hallucinagenic ending. Without a REAL ending to give the hallucinations context, everything about its "higher meaning" is pure speculation. You need a REAL ending to make the current "ending" have any logic, basis, rhyme or reason. All else is pure speculation and wishful thinking. This current ending also doesn't support the making of a movie.

As one magazine reviewer stated in response to a Bioware rep stating they wanted the ending to be "memorable", "I’m not sure seething rage is the type of thing you want people remember your products for."

Modifié par Getorex, 15 mars 2012 - 01:51 .

[JulienJaden]

mr.surv wrote...

Fame-KIllz wrote...

lol

http://i.imgur.com/stzbj.jpg

Awesome

Indeed. 

But that's because it's true. 

[PyroByte]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

Hitokiri, in me2 harbinger has an extreme obsession with shepard going so far as to order the collectors to "catch shepard alive if possible" and "i will have your mind, shepard".

Harbinger even talks about shepard to the other reapers. The rannoch one mentions it specifically.

As for why harbinger just now nabs shepard? In priority sanctuary it is down that adrenaline is a hell of a boost to enabling indoctrination. Also fighting off indoctrination requires a lot if willpower. By the end of the game shepard is clearly worn down mentally, this makes it easier to try to subvert him

But why would Harbinger need Shepard('s mind) for anything? I don't really see that

Just a wild guess but: Shepard is always shown as a  leader figuere who can unite the galaxy to fight the reapers and therefor is a threat to them. So getting hold of Shepards mind and turning him into an agent of the reapers (like Saren) would derail an organized resistance and the reapers would achieve their goal more quickly.

[MysticFred]

Seems like the same ideas keep popping up every 100 pages or so, nothing new has been discussed past page 200ish ~
On that note, I'm gonna leave you all with this quote from a book:

"The problem with any idea is the fact that the more it gets bandied
about, the more feasible it seems to become. What starts out as idle speculation -can become, once others are drawn into it, a kind of obligation."

[LivingHitokiri]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Hitokiri, in me2 harbinger has an extreme obsession with shepard going so far as to order the collectors to "catch shepard alive if possible" and "i will have your mind, shepard".

Harbinger even talks about shepard to the other reapers. The rannoch one mentions it specifically.

As for why harbinger just now nabs shepard? In priority sanctuary it is down that adrenaline is a hell of a boost to enabling indoctrination. Also fighting off indoctrination requires a lot if willpower. By the end of the game shepard is clearly worn down mentally, this makes it easier to try to subvert him

You forget one important flaw, which is harbinger was never  near him or on our Galactic system to do that.
Harbinger wanted to harvest Shepard and use him for the human reaper (mind probably) creation as they are known to use organics agaisnt their own which was the downfall of protheans.
The problem for Reappers that is Shepard was confirmed since ME 1, since the first moment  Shepard found the beacon and saw the vision. Sovereign send forces of geth in order to stop him,since he is the organics last hope of this cycle and he wouldnt allow anything to sabotage the reapers invasion.
Reapers always wanted to harvest Shepard,simply because he would be the finest speciment of the organic that literaly went against all odds and prevailed many times.

Which we come to the point of, Reapers can control form distance only the species that got harvested/modified by them . Sovereign was near to PLENTY of organics but he couldnt controll them.
All we know is that Saren got controlled by his own will, he accepted  Sovereign at beginning but after when he wanted to stop it alreayd took over.
Remember what benezia said before she died ?

Did illusive man found a way to control organics with the experiment , did he found that because his brain signals or w/e other reasons match as being organic and allow him to control, MAYBE  thats why REAPERS used TIM for that, to capture Shepard?

Like i've said, it is too good to be believable that bioware took into account SOO many aspects with so little time in their hands.

Modifié par LivingHitokiri, 15 mars 2012 - 02:03 .

[arkhine]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
But why would Harbinger need Shepard('s mind) for anything? I don't really see that

Well getting Shepard out of the picture is getting rid of the one person who can stop him and his Reaper buddies.

[Golferguy758]

To earthborn,
The reason why I believe harbinger wants shepard's mind is two fold. 1. Shepard ja an incredible willpower to resist what is considered an inevitability. Harbinger wants to know what makes shepard "tick". Also, from a strategic standpoint turning shepard against his allies would singke handedly end any resistance. The races are coming together sdirectly due to shepard. Witwhout him it all falls apart

[Getorex]

Ellythe wrote...

Yes, because they would obviously never consider knowing how it ended when they started making the game. (end sarcasm) And that bigshot from EA calling the shots from on high? He founded Bioware. There is so much potential for spinoffs and other games in this franchise, there's no way they'd screw it up so badly that no one would ever want to pay them for more content from the Mass Effect universe. And I'm not talking about $10 ending DLC. I'm talking about making more games that fans would pay $60+ a pop for. You don't cook the goose that laid the golden egg. It's poor business sense.

Uh, it is fairly well known that when they started ME3 they didn't know at that point how it would actually end. 

A good number of the people who gave us ME1 were not there to do ME3.  Hell, they changed writers in the midst of doing ME2!  They pass employees back and forth to work this project or that on a near whim.  This isn't a "labor of love" by the creators from start to finish.  Sure, SOME people were there on all of them but not all.  They did NOT have the entire story arc layed out and known when they created ME1.  Other than "here's the danger, here's the guy to fight the danger, and in the end he will defeat the danger" as 'canon' while telling us they would also take into account off-canon (canon being what was in the mind of the original creators, to the extent that it existed) actions and decisions so it can all go to hell.  

This has taken 10 years, start to finish, to get this thing done.  There is NO WAY they would be keeping the same people on the project for that long.  People move around, lose interest, die, get married, get divorced, rob banks and get caught, etc.  

[camcon2100]

MysticFred wrote...

Seems like the same ideas keep popping up every 100 pages or so, nothing new has been discussed past page 200ish ~
On that note, I'm gonna leave you all with this quote from a book:

"The problem with any idea is the fact that the more it gets bandied
about, the more feasible it seems to become. What starts out as idle speculation -can become, once others are drawn into it, a kind of obligation."

I know what your saying, but its not like like this theory came out of out butts. There is plenty of evidence. This thread is debating the theory. Most people have come here to show evidence otherwise have been proven false.

[arkhine]

LivingHitokiri wrote...
The whole reason why Shepard dies is to give him more weight for the sacrifices he made.

Seeing Shepard bleeding next to Anderson then collapsing was way more emotional and painful to watch than seeing him get thrown to the ground from the conduit explosion <_< Talking to Garrus and Ash for the last time made me shed a tear or two as well.

[camcon2100]

Getorex wrote...

Ellythe wrote...

Yes, because they would obviously never consider knowing how it ended when they started making the game. (end sarcasm) And that bigshot from EA calling the shots from on high? He founded Bioware. There is so much potential for spinoffs and other games in this franchise, there's no way they'd screw it up so badly that no one would ever want to pay them for more content from the Mass Effect universe. And I'm not talking about $10 ending DLC. I'm talking about making more games that fans would pay $60+ a pop for. You don't cook the goose that laid the golden egg. It's poor business sense.

Uh, it is fairly well known that when they started ME3 they didn't know at that point how it would actually end. 

A good number of the people who gave us ME1 were not there to do ME3.  Hell, they changed writers in the midst of doing ME2!  They pass employees back and forth to work this project or that on a near whim.  This isn't a "labor of love" by the creators from start to finish.  Sure, SOME people were there on all of them but not all.  They did NOT have the entire story arc layed out and known when they created ME1.  Other than "here's the danger, here's the guy to fight the danger, and in the end he will defeat the danger" as 'canon' while telling us they would also take into account off-canon (canon being what was in the mind of the original creators, to the extent that it existed) actions and decisions so it can all go to hell.  

This has taken 10 years, start to finish, to get this thing done.  There is NO WAY they would be keeping the same people on the project for that long.  People move around, lose interest, die, get married, get divorced, rob banks and get caught, etc.  

Cool, and I say again. Not related to the topic. Take it to the 1000 other threads about how Bioware wronged you. That is not what we are discussing

[VanDex]

Getorex wrote...

I played ME1 6 times and ME2 8 times. I will be playing ME3, as it stands with the current ending, exactly once

My thoughts exactly. I don't even know what would be the point of future DLCs if any plot in it effectively boils down to one ending anyway.

Also, about the point on Shepard facing the biggest threat to the universe. I hope bioware don't fall for the hollywoodian idea of "the biggest threat to the world makes the best conflict". There are lots of ways to make future games in the same setting possible and engaging. If the writing's good, a character sitting in a room for the whole game can be made interesting.

P.S. Sorry for going offtopic here.

[SeanThen1]

Shepard represented the best of humanity along with the influences of the Protheans due the beacon's effect upon him. He is unique in that regard. He has aspects from two distinct cycles melded into one.

[Getorex]

JulienJaden wrote...

mr.surv wrote...

Fame-KIllz wrote...

lol

http://i.imgur.com/stzbj.jpg

Awesome

Indeed. 

But that's because it's true. 

Perfect.  That and the "Hitler discovers the ending of ME3" on Youtube hit it out of the park on the real world cost of the ME3 ending.