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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#13426
LivingHitokiri

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Golferguy758 wrote...

Hitokiri, your middle paragraph supports this theory. If the ending scene is actually a battle of wills between harbinger and shepard it explains what happens quite well. Choosing control means shepard thinks he can control the reapers to do what he wants. Get ryu's of them forever. (tim indoctrinated). If he agrees with synthesis he is going along with saren who is also indoctrinated. But if he decides on destroy he is sticking to his own belief and not compromising to deal with the reapers .

Love this chat even if my responses seem jolted due to my phone.

This is where i blame ME 3 endign to contradicts itself with ME 1 and ME 2 from the story counterparts.
How do you know that the control choice actually  allows Shepard to control the reapers,wouldnt that go against the reapers policy since if shepard controls them he could easily destroy them   along without touching the relays ? What makes you think that Reaper simply wont control Shepard at the moment he gives in liek Saren did ?

The game doesnt want to give an exact explanationg on WHY/WHEN/WHERE the choices take to an conclusion,since there is NO conclusion.
The synthesis is suppose to look the only way to end the CYCLE since we do not know how this will affect in the aftermath of the story.
We already know that both control and destruction THEORETICALLY  lead you to the same cycle,while synthesis doesnt because there was nothing something like this before, its something new.

But, by having Shepard going to destroy the reapers and leave this HOPE for the organics, that THEY can surprass and change this cycle of recycling  is the whole option for the Destruction eding.
The whole point on  how Shepard proves that an organic can **** all over the reapers invasion , unite the whole galaxy, make Synthetic to ally with organics etc etc shows exactlly how Shepard proves the child and the reapers wrong about the cycle and everything. Shepard proves the reapers that they are wrong with the destruction choice, at least thats what bioware seems to try and show but they failed wiht it in many many ways.
its the same bullsh*t on why shepard never argues with the kid and just shows his words by choosing or something...


I can sit and write and argue about how the whole reaper motivation is crap  and nonsense at best.

#13427
FrostByte-GER

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http://social.biowar...index/9992961/9

I'm sure that something big is coming today...

#13428
lex0r11

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guys, completely off topic but i guess most of us need some outside news:

diablo 3 release date is may 15.

us.battle.net/d3/en/

Modifié par lex0r11, 15 mars 2012 - 03:36 .


#13429
Mallissin

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Mallissin wrote...

People4Peace wrote...

Nazoa wrote...

I'm loving how this theory is coming along, and I have something to add, that I don't believe has been said, though admittedly I haven't read every page.

Many people ask why the hell the god-child talks about synthetics (reapers) destroying organics so that synthetics cannot rise up. Thus preventing "chaos".

This could be a nonsense argument that only makes sense because Shepard is indoctrinated, OR it could be a twist of the truth.

What if the Reapers were the first synthetics ever created, by a civilization that grew very advanced? They then became self-aware, realized they were superior to their creators, then overthrew them. They now kill off organics after a certain amount of time, because they fear that another race of self-aware synthetics will rise up to challenge them.

SO to hold their dominance, they wipe out all advanced organic life before they can advance far enough to create synthetics to challenge the reapers.

Thoughts?


Very interesting. I like it and it's certainly better than the "purpose" of the Reapers explained to us by God Child


Here's a theory from two years ago that's similar.

http://social.biowar...5/index/1513253


Wow, I just creeped myself out reading my old theory. Specifically:

"13. Realizing the issue, the Reapers decide they need to create a new Reaper that's been built using the races they're trying to assimilate. They think this bridge will be the catalyst they need to understand those being assimilated enough that they can join the Reaper consciousness', yet it's not a simple task."

....Shepard is the catalyst?

Modifié par Mallissin, 15 mars 2012 - 03:36 .


#13430
inFam0us

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I don't know is you guys already noticed, don't want to read back 100 pages, but the @masseffect is asking everyone on twitter now what they didn't like about the ending, maybe there is still hope?

#13431
FrostByte-GER

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inFam0us wrote...

I don't know is you guys already noticed, don't want to read back 100 pages, but the @masseffect is asking everyone on twitter now what they didn't like about the ending, maybe there is still hope?


Because this: http://social.biowar...index/9992961/1

#13432
Gruumi

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lex0r11 wrote...

guys, completely off topic but i guess most of us need some outside news:

diablo 3 release date is may 15.

us.battle.net/d3/en/


11 years of waiting is finally over! :wizard:

#13433
inFam0us

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FrostByte-GER wrote...

inFam0us wrote...

I don't know is you guys already noticed, don't want to read back 100 pages, but the @masseffect is asking everyone on twitter now what they didn't like about the ending, maybe there is still hope?


Because this: http://social.biowar...index/9992961/1


So there is still hope!!!!!! =D Finally they are listening to us!

#13434
Golferguy758

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Hitokori, we are on the same side of this. Whether my points aren't coming out clear enough you are typing my thoughts almost verbatim. The control choice indicates shepard just like tim. synthesis gets you indoctrinated like saren. Only destruction has the chance of breaking you out.

#13435
Midna Shepard

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Getorex wrote...

IllusionOfLife wrote...

I just finished the game, and I too found the ending confusing and unsatisfying. This theory certainly makes a lot of sense, and in a way the idea that it was a massive scale swindle is easier to swallow than the idea that BioWare's writers just said "screw it! The End." during the last five minutes.

If this whole idea of BioWare duping their audience into believing a fake ending in order to accomplish some meta sense of indoctrination is unprecedented, ballsy, and, if it works, potentially brilliant and groundbreaking. However, even if this does turn out to be brilliant, having to download the "real" ending as DLC (paid or not) is kind of a dick move.


Here's what happened...

Bioware guys are working on ME3, trying to figure out how it ends.  Deadline is approaching.  EA exec comes in and demands they cut bait and "git 'er done".  They argue that they are still working out how to end the thing.  EA exec says, "Enough!  It's just a damn game.  Stick an ending on it.  Here.  Use this ending."  He hands them the script to Deus Ex: Human Revolution.  Bioware guys say, "Uh, this isn't even remotely the same game." EA exec, "It's an ending.  It's a game and it's an ending.  Use it."  EA exec, "First person who gets this ending shoehorned into ME3 and gets a compiled ME3 on the servers for download gets to use my parking space for a week!"  Bioware guys, " Woohoo! Game ON!"  Bioware guys scramble and the first one to re-jigger the Deus Ex ending into ME 3 and compile and upload it stands at his desk, fists held up, "HAH!  I win!" 

We all lose but at least this guy got a posh parking space for a week.



THAT'S what happened! I support the parking space theory!

#13436
Golferguy758

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Indicates is meant is meant to be indoctrinates. Swype fails

#13437
jackncoke28

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jackncoke28 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

2nd play thru, just noticed oily shadows first appear in nightmares after genophage cure mission, at first I thought it was because of the grief due to loosing mordin, but then it dawned on me, genophage mission was also the first instance in me3 where Shepard had an up close battle with a reaper. This bolster indoctrination argument.

When does 3rd nightmare appear, not up to it yet on 2nd play through, at work right now lol. Does 3rd nightmare also correlate with in close reaper contact?

#13438
Golferguy758

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And your reasoning is why I believe ther is more to be had. Those"endings" aren't actually the end. Just a part of the climax

#13439
Killer 1 90

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First time posting here just two things I wanted to point out to try and help.First, just before Shepard wakes up in the secret ending scene, a sound very similar to the sound heard when you look away from the kid can be heard.

The kid - 1:50

The ending - 1:15

In the scene with the kid people are saying that it is the Reapers growling when Shepard pulls out of their control. The ending scene could just be the building breaking apart but they do kinda sound the sound.

Secondly Keith Szarabajka, the voice of Harbinger, is listed the game credits without him speaking a line as Harbinger. I gusse he could play a role like the Reaper on Rannoch but it seems wierd to just bring him back in forthat.

 Can be seen at 3:00 bottom right hand corner - http://www.youtube.c...h?v=sVMGvXFFG6c

Modifié par Killer 1 90, 15 mars 2012 - 03:50 .


#13440
dnalevel3

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I've never seen a convincing illustration of a dream than I have at the end of Mass Effect 3 (except maybe Incseption?). Some of these points have been covered, sure, but I'm sure some haven't.

First is the little boy at the beginning of the game. Looking back it totally makes sense that he wasn't really in the air duct and he didn't really board the shuttle. Now fast forwarding to after he gets hit with the Reaper's laser, right when he gets back up. This is where the dream begins for sure.

Think about anytime you've had a dream, when you are in it you see lots of weird stuff but none of it seems abnormal. That is until you wake up and think about it. Now think of all the little things that happened in this time period that can only make sense in the context of a dream.

First of all Shep's gun has unlimited ammo and it's (probably) not the gun you had on you when you got hit and we didn't see him scrambling for a weapon either.

Now consider once he gets to the beam and is transported up to the Citadel. The first thing of note is the dead bodies everywhere. This makes no sense at all seeing as how bodies are either turned into husks or, as suggested earlier in game, taken alive to be made into a reaper. Also, something had to put those bodies there and it doesn't look like the Keepers did it. So who/what put them there? It was only theorized that the Citadel would be used to make reapers so either way you look at it the dead bodies don't belong.

Moving on, it seems odd that Shepard only talks to one other person over the radio and that's Anderson. He doesn't radio the Normandy or potentially dead squad-mates to get a situation report, in fact he doesn't even try. The things Anderson says are very out of place. He says the walls are moving and changing yet this is not something the Citadel has ever been known to do. Whats more is when we finally do see moving walls they are exactly the same as you see on the Shadow Brokers ship (if I'm remembering correctly. You know when you go through the one room and Liara comments how long it must have taken to make a ship like that? This might need verifying though). We tend to put similar things in dreams to fill in gaps so this makes sense.

Now we get to the control room and Anderson is already there. People have pointed out that Anderson went through the beam before you did so how did he get there first? He did say that they were transported to two different locations so maybe he just transported closer? But that in itself would seem off to me -- it sounds very dream-like that two people would walk through the same doorway only to find themselves in separate rooms.

Now the biggest dream-like thing that happens thus far is when The Illusive Man just "shows up" from out of nowhere. People just popping in and it feeling like they've always been there is very telling that you're in a dream. The area is wide open and he defiantly wasn't there when I walked in. Also, you know how people look different in a dream sometimes? Well just hours before hand you spoke with The Illusive Man VIA quantum communicator and he still looked human despite undergoing his transformation prior. And now you see him and he looks like one of the early test soldiers you saw on Mars (the one you took the helmet radio from). The rest of what happens between them seems out of place to me as well, given the context, but is otherwise still plausible.

This next part needs a little setting up, the part just after Anderson dies. I've had many dreams where my goal is right there in front of me but no matter how hard I try it eludes me. I'll be driving my car coming up to a stop sign and I try to stop but I can only slow down and no matter how hard I press and clench I cannot stop the vehicle from going through the intersection even though I had plenty of time to stop. When all Shepard has to do is get up and press a few buttons he can't do it no matter how hard he tries and it's RIGHT THERE! But soon after he's back up and fine again, even SPRINTING to leap to his synthesis doom. But I'm getting ahead a little.

If this is not a dream then at this point the Reapers have absolutely won. The only people to make it onto the Citadel have either passed out or died giving the Reapers ample time to reinforce that vulnerable position. But then out of kindness the 'enemy' raises a platform, that is obviously not supposed to be an elevator, and you regain strength. There is no reason for the Reapers to help you at this point, none whatsoever. *Almost* winning is the exact same as *Definitely* losing and for the Reapers aka Crucible aka whatever to assist you in victory is silliness that can only be present in dreamworld (probably...hopefully).

Drawing back to what I started with, the child you saw in the vent at the beginning of the game. It's well known that the beginnings of indoctrination are hallucinations. It's also important to note that at no point in the three games is it even hinted that Reapers can READ your mind (iirc). Therefore, being able to take the form of a boy in Shepard's memories/dreams is not realistic; that is unless it was a reaper that planted that image there in the first place.

After hearing everything explained to him by the Ghost Child he doesn't even try to contact anyone, not for a warning; nothing. This is because within the confines of a dream you automatically know certain things though you don't know you know them in the dream. He is fully aware he cannot contact anyone because he's in a dream but at the same time is unable to put two and two together.

Only after you wake up from something like this do you realize how silly it was of you to think it was the real thing to begin with.

Finally, it's reasonable to gather, assuming the dream/indoctrination scenario, that choosing destruction can free you from your mental prison allowing you to wake up at the end. However, this is as far as I go as I feel the things that happen next are too difficult to interpret as they aren't thing directly happening to Shepard and I don't feel I can add anything significant.

Modifié par dnalevel3, 15 mars 2012 - 03:50 .


#13441
njfluffy19

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Killer 1 90 wrote...

First time posting here just two things I wanted to point out to try and help.First, just before Shepard wakes up in the secret ending scene, a sound very similar to the sound heard when you look away from the kid can be heard.

The kid - 1:50

The ending - 1:15

In the scene with the kid people are saying that it is the Reapers growling when Shepard pulls out of their control. The ending scene could just be the building breaking apart but they do kinda sound the sound.
Secondly Keith Szarabajka, the voice of Harbinger, is listed the game credits without him speaking a line as Harbinger. I gusse he could play a role like the Reaper on Rannoch but it seems wierd to just bring him back in forthat.

 Can be seen at 3:00 bottom right hand corner - http://www.youtube.c...h?v=sVMGvXFFG6c


Harbinger's voice was mingled in with fem/male shep's and the kids.

#13442
Elanor

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GunMoth wrote...

Dice2624 wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

There is a 98% chance this was originally posted by someone on here. A friend of mine found this on Tumblr, so it could have been pulled from this thread - but I havent seen it mentioned yet. Though I also havent skimmed the last 500 pages of this thread. OP needs to update this with a lot of new evidence. :U 

 My friend sent this to me. 

Wow.  This is pretty cool!


Either its an easter egg / reference to ME1 and someone drove a mako up to the final stage (though we never saw this happen) ORRR. ORRRRRR. 

Yeah indoctrination. 


I think I see indoctrination everywhere now... :huh:

#13443
savionen

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Indoctrinations!


Indoctrinations everywhere!

#13444
Tailen

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Thermorium wrote...

http://social.biowar...5/index/9992961

Just going to leave this here. It seems this is where bioware will be discussing things for now. Go there, tell them what you liked, and then tell them (in a well thought out and nicely written way) what you didn't (the ending) liked


Actually, while the thread is addressing the endings -- it's even called "On the Mass Effect 3 endings. Yes, we are listening." -- the actual replies are meant to follow this prompt:

In the meantime, let's give appreciation to Commander Shepard. Whether you loved the ME3 ending or didn't or you just have a lot of questions, he/she has given many of us some of the best adventures we have had while playing games. What was your favorite moment? 


"What was your favorite moment?"  That's it.  But of course the majority of the replies missed that entirely and are about the end.

#13445
Smiley556

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lex0r11 wrote...

guys, completely off topic but i guess most of us need some outside news:

diablo 3 release date is may 15.

us.battle.net/d3/en/


I hope the ME3 ending is released before may 15 then, cos otherwise Bioware can stick it. On may 15 I'll be like Mass ewhat? Neh dunno that game.

#13446
jackncoke28

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Elanor1 wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

Dice2624 wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

There is a 98% chance this was originally posted by someone on here. A friend of mine found this on Tumblr, so it could have been pulled from this thread - but I havent seen it mentioned yet. Though I also havent skimmed the last 500 pages of this thread. OP needs to update this with a lot of new evidence. :U 

 My friend sent this to me. 

Wow.  This is pretty cool!


Either its an easter egg / reference to ME1 and someone drove a mako up to the final stage (though we never saw this happen) ORRR. ORRRRRR. 

Yeah indoctrination. 


I think I see indoctrination everywhere now... :huh:

other interesting coincidense is the side where destroy option is which you have to shoot to activate, is the same side the marauder you shot at is located lol

#13447
PyroByte

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LivingHitokiri wrote...

There is a huge door for assumption which is left open.
For all we know that it could take time,some special praparation for Sovereign to control an organic, he could use brainwash like he did with Saren,then make him/her accept their logic and after that taking full controll . We do not know if Sovereign used Sarens oragnic influence in order to help them.


I agree and never said anything else normal indoctrination takes time. It is even said in Mass Effect 1 that indoctrination is a subtle and slow process.
Saren found Sovereign before the events of Mass Effect 1 and was in contact with Reaper tech during the events of Shanxi. So Saren was exposed long enough to become slowly indoctrinated. Same goes for Beniza and her companions, they spent enough time around Sovereign to be indoctrinated.

The Cerberus team that was researching the derelict Reaper had the same fate. They were slowly indoctrinated until they put themselves on the "dragons teeths" and became husks.


LivingHitokiri wrote...
My whole point is that, they cannot direct control organics instatlly  and especially by FAR , they need some preparation for it. Shepard was soo close in  ME 1 with Sovereign than ever before, yet, he didnt even fuzzle or feel any sign of indoctrination.


Shepard never came in direct contact with Sovereign except for the
console on Virmire and the final fight on the citadel. Same goes for
Harbringer in Mass Effect 2, there was only a brief exchange after
Arrival.

LivingHitokiri wrote...
If the reapers could control organics by just being close then this whole war would be pointless.They harvest organics and use them against each other in order to achieve what they want, the difference is that the altered organics can be dirrectly controled by reapers . Thats how protheans lost the war,not because they got controlled but because reapers used themselves as the weakness.


Again never said anything else. A small group of people can be indoctrinated if they spent enough time around a Reaper. Implanting Reaper tech makes it more simple and shortens the process. Maybe it is too difficult to influence a larger group of individuals because they can strengthen each others will to resist? Even the protheans were just sabotaged by a few sleeper agents.


LivingHitokiri wrote...
Do you honeslty believe that organics that created the REAPERS and created them to perserve the same ORGANICS against synthetics would give the abillity for reapers to control dirrectly the organics ?
yes there could an explanation that maybe reapers evolved their control over synthetics and somehow took a better  understanding of organics and found a way to controll them IF some preparations,acceptance is met.


Not really touching that subject since that's the major plothole that kinda throws me off with the endings we got. But where does it say the catalyst or the creator of the reapers were organics? Maybe it was an AI created by organics that took over and build the Reapers? (Crazy though I know)

#13448
Fame-KIllz

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uhh..?

http://i.imgur.com/1fU9K.jpg

#13449
dfstone

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I think the final scene on the citadel is the Reapers getting desperate to stop Shepherd. They tried to take him over and thats what Anderson/Tim is about. Anderson being Shepherd's concious/will and TIM being the Reapers. If Anderson dies, they win and the rest of the ending doesn't matter. If Anderson lives you save your concious and new options open up. The kid is the reapers final attempt to disuade you from killing them using guilt over that little boy's death so that you wont pick the destroy option, since the other 2 options let the reapers live. I basically think the whole end scene is a Reaper mindf--k.

Modifié par dfstone, 15 mars 2012 - 03:58 .


#13450
savionen

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Fame-KIllz wrote...

uhh..?

http://i.imgur.com/1fU9K.jpg


I believe their original plan in the old script even was to leave the galaxy in shambles, but they're starting to realize that is definitely not what most people want.

If they make a Mass Effect 4 and the galaxy is in shambles it's not really Mass Effect anymore.