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[MartiniSauce]

So I've actually been following this thread since Sunday 11 pm right after I finished the game and was in the heat of my rage/confusion.
Finally decided to make an account & post.

I just hafta say guys. I'm losing hope. Monday, I was excited. I was SO sure this theory was right. We were gonna get some DLC that was gonna confirm our suspicions while also give us the ending Mass Effect actually deserves... I mean, they just kept teasing us on their Twitter that we were right.

But especially after the Casey Hudson interview, and as much as it pains me to say, the way things are spinning, Bioware is just patronizing us right now. They got their money and now they're out. They say they're "listening" but it's just them sort of acknowledging we hate it and then deflecting it to talk about how awesome the rest of the game was (which is true, but is annoying regardless).

I really want to hold the line, but idk guys...

[Vhalkyrie]

kyg_20X6 wrote...

It could have indoctrinated Baley as well, surely that would have made things easier. Or the Asari and Salarian Councillors.

The Reapers are very dilberate in who they indoctrinate.  Saren, Benezia, TIM that we know for sure.  All very smart, VERY powerful people.  The rest are expendable and turned into husks, cannibals, etc.  As much as I love Bailey, he doesn't have the pull they would be interested in.  He's middle management - easily overriden.  Anyone on the counsel would be an ideal target. The Reapers are very patient, and the codex says longer term indoctrination works better than short term.

[HairyMadDog1010]

Lugaidster wrote...

To be completely fair, the only person that was standing between me and sending my games to hell was Jessica Merizan. However vague her tweets are, she answers as much as she can. She's just a community manager in an unmanageable situation.

I feel sorry for her, it must be like fighting fire with her bare hands, because I highly doubt she knows anythinng.

[Vhalkyrie]

Rifneno wrote...

Speaking of Starchild's lies, has anyone else ever wondered why his solution will no longer work? "Your being here, the first organic ever, means my solution will no longer work." Paraphrased, I forget the exact wording. I don't see how Shepard's being there means that at all.

Hubris.  The Reapers exterminate races that become too advanced and might pose a challenge to them.  They never thought it possible that someone would be able to defeat their defenses.  And here comes Shepard! ../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png

[Lugaidster]

HairyMadDog1010 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

To be completely fair, the only person that was standing between me and sending my games to hell was Jessica Merizan. However vague her tweets are, she answers as much as she can. She's just a community manager in an unmanageable situation.

I feel sorry for her, it must be like fighting fire with her bare hands, because I highly doubt she knows anythinng.

I don't feel sorry though. She has to enjoy the challenge at the very least. I mean, if she comes out of this alive and kicking her career would explode. Managing the arguably biggest gaming controversy in recent times has to count a lot.

[kyg_20X6]

Important pieces of the puzzle:

1. Casey said they wanted to end the game with the player under total Reaper control but couldn't mesh that gameplay-wise with dialogue choices.

2. Weird, bizarre dreamlike ending with logic errors doesn't fit with rest of game. Community comes up with idea of attempted Indoctrination, that the end is a hallucination, a trick. Fits with lore about indoctrination, fits with what we see in game, connects leaps of logic, fits with devs plans to somehow put the player under Reaper control (but still gives dialogue choice), fits with weird dream sequences and fits with...

3. Shepard waking up, seemingly on Earth, in the hardest ending to obtain.

Taking the endings at face value and being real doesn't fit with any of those.

[Vhalkyrie]

Lugaidster wrote...

HairyMadDog1010 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

To be completely fair, the only person that was standing between me and sending my games to hell was Jessica Merizan. However vague her tweets are, she answers as much as she can. She's just a community manager in an unmanageable situation.

I feel sorry for her, it must be like fighting fire with her bare hands, because I highly doubt she knows anythinng.

I don't feel sorry though. She has to enjoy the challenge at the very least. I mean, if she comes out of this alive and kicking her career would explode. Managing the arguably biggest gaming controversy in recent times has to count a lot.

Is this a bigger controversy than Anders is a terrorist in DA2?

[kyg_20X6]

Rifneno wrote...

Speaking of Starchild's lies, has anyone else ever wondered why his solution will no longer work? "Your being here, the first organic ever, means my solution will no longer work." Paraphrased, I forget the exact wording. I don't see how Shepard's being there means that at all.

Exactly, couldn't he just close the arms (or stop them opening anyway) and/or cut the Conduit and just watch (Palpatine style) as the organic fleets get destroyed? Then reap away!

[MPSai]

Vhalkyrie wrote...


Is this a bigger controversy than Anders is a terrorist in DA2?

No. Although that was nearly as stupid as ME3's ending.

[Vhalkyrie]

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Speaking of Starchild's lies, has anyone else ever wondered why his solution will no longer work? "Your being here, the first organic ever, means my solution will no longer work." Paraphrased, I forget the exact wording. I don't see how Shepard's being there means that at all.

Exactly, couldn't he just close the arms (or stop them opening anyway) and/or cut the Conduit and just watch (Palpatine style) as the organic fleets get destroyed? Then reap away!

Well, that is what happened.  The arms of the citadel were closed once the Reapers were informed by TIM what Shepard was planning.  Shepard was there to reopen them.

[Flammenpanzer]

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Speaking of Starchild's lies, has anyone else ever wondered why his solution will no longer work? "Your being here, the first organic ever, means my solution will no longer work." Paraphrased, I forget the exact wording. I don't see how Shepard's being there means that at all.

Exactly, couldn't he just close the arms (or stop them opening anyway) and/or cut the Conduit and just watch (Palpatine style) as the organic fleets get destroyed? Then reap away!

I can picture this, actually

[seitani]

morning everyone so is the the hallucination theory or new dlc ending shot down i have seen some mixed posts and rumors

[dragonage200200]

MartiniSauce wrote...

So I've actually been following this thread since Sunday 11 pm right after I finished the game and was in the heat of my rage/confusion.
Finally decided to make an account & post.

I just hafta say guys. I'm losing hope. Monday, I was excited. I was SO sure this theory was right. We were gonna get some DLC that was gonna confirm our suspicions while also give us the ending Mass Effect actually deserves... I mean, they just kept teasing us on their Twitter that we were right.

But especially after the Casey Hudson interview, and as much as it pains me to say, the way things are spinning, Bioware is just patronizing us right now. They got their money and now they're out. They say they're "listening" but it's just them sort of acknowledging we hate it and then deflecting it to talk about how awesome the rest of the game was (which is true, but is annoying regardless).

I really want to hold the line, but idk guys...

You shouldn't expect anything from them yet, the game came out in Japan yesterday. We shouldn't be expecting a immdiate reply. Keppy holding out hope.(and the line)

[kyg_20X6]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

kyg_20X6 wrote...

It could have indoctrinated Baley as well, surely that would have made things easier. Or the Asari and Salarian Councillors.

The Reapers are very dilberate in who they indoctrinate.  Saren, Benezia, TIM that we know for sure.  All very smart, VERY powerful people.  The rest are expendable and turned into husks, cannibals, etc.  As much as I love Bailey, he doesn't have the pull they would be interested in.  He's middle management - easily overriden.  Anyone on the counsel would be an ideal target. The Reapers are very patient, and the codex says longer term indoctrination works better than short term.

No, they indoctrinated them because they were the only ones they had the opportunity to. Saren because he found, and used, Sovereign. Benezia because she joined Saren on Sovereign. Both were exposed to Sovereign for a long period of time. TIM dabbled in experiments on Indoctrination and implanted himself with Reaper tech. Not to mention how they say the Reapers try indoctrinating everyone when attacking a planet. Why was deliberate about Rana Thanoptis?

The reaccuring theme with indoctrination is someone had prolonged contact with Reaper tech capable of indoctrination. Usually, it happens surreptiously or by accident. Think of Object Rho scientists, the ones on the derelict reaper, the Hanar ambassador, Rana Thanoptis, Saren, etc, etc, etc. They found the Reaper tech, not the other way around. The Reapers don't seem to discriminate.

[kyg_20X6]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Speaking of Starchild's lies, has anyone else ever wondered why his solution will no longer work? "Your being here, the first organic ever, means my solution will no longer work." Paraphrased, I forget the exact wording. I don't see how Shepard's being there means that at all.

Exactly, couldn't he just close the arms (or stop them opening anyway) and/or cut the Conduit and just watch (Palpatine style) as the organic fleets get destroyed? Then reap away!

Well, that is what happened.  The arms of the citadel were closed once the Reapers were informed by TIM what Shepard was planning.  Shepard was there to reopen them.

Why couldn't he just reclose them? And, the clincher, why doesn't he let Shepard bleed out? Hackett says it ain't working. Why not let Shepard bleed out, wait for a friendly husk/indoctrinated (since apparently Spacechild/citadel can't work his own parts) to come along and close them. If the Crucible ain't working and Shepard's the last chance and is bleeding out, why revive them and give them a chance to win? You were just about to win, Crucible's failed, Shepard's bleeding out, you've won!

And if you say 'hubris', well, I give up!

[keith123456789]

so this may be off topic but i was trying to get the shepered breathing ending and got it but to get it i had to tell myself emotionaly to get to the ending i did but when Liara, Anderson, and jokers faces popped in i burst out sobbing is this normal

[Buddy_88]

A very interesting, and might I say, creepy theories and ideas!  If this some how turned out to be true and Bioware releases DLC with new endings with this "Indoctrination Theory" as part of the story, then I think I would be overjoyed and amazed at the complex, creative thinking.  Even if this wasn't the planned case, Bioware could definately use this to get out of their hole with the many disappointed fans, and cash in big time!  Especially if they did this and offered it as DLC initially and eventually made it part of the game down the road.  If any head Bioware staffer sees this they should take note: This could not only give you money, but give your fans one of the most epic endings to a game EVER.  Plus you'd probably get some publicity too.

[kyg_20X6]

Oh, and I thought you opened/closed the Citadel from the Council chambers. Now it's on the roof? And the Conduit (for Reaper processing) takes you to the console for opening the Citadel? Wow, that's one of those crazy coincidences you'd expect from a dream or something!

[Vhalkyrie]

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

kyg_20X6 wrote...

It could have indoctrinated Baley as well, surely that would have made things easier. Or the Asari and Salarian Councillors.

The Reapers are very dilberate in who they indoctrinate.  Saren, Benezia, TIM that we know for sure.  All very smart, VERY powerful people.  The rest are expendable and turned into husks, cannibals, etc.  As much as I love Bailey, he doesn't have the pull they would be interested in.  He's middle management - easily overriden.  Anyone on the counsel would be an ideal target. The Reapers are very patient, and the codex says longer term indoctrination works better than short term.

No, they indoctrinated them because they were the only ones they had the opportunity to. Saren because he found, and used, Sovereign. Benezia because she joined Saren on Sovereign. Both were exposed to Sovereign for a long period of time. TIM dabbled in experiments on Indoctrination and implanted himself with Reaper tech. Not to mention how they say the Reapers try indoctrinating everyone when attacking a planet. Why was deliberate about Rana Thanoptis?

The reaccuring theme with indoctrination is someone had prolonged contact with Reaper tech capable of indoctrination. Usually, it happens surreptiously or by accident. Think of Object Rho scientists, the ones on the derelict reaper, the Hanar ambassador, Rana Thanoptis, Saren, etc, etc, etc. They found the Reaper tech, not the other way around. The Reapers don't seem to discriminate.

I have a different interpretation.  I saw Sovereign as like the "One Ring".  Saren was unlucky enough to stumble upon it, but Sovereign chose Saren because it saw him as pliable and useful.  Saren was already a loose cannon - all he needed was the right strings manipulated.

[Lugaidster]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

HairyMadDog1010 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

To be completely fair, the only person that was standing between me and sending my games to hell was Jessica Merizan. However vague her tweets are, she answers as much as she can. She's just a community manager in an unmanageable situation.

I feel sorry for her, it must be like fighting fire with her bare hands, because I highly doubt she knows anythinng.

I don't feel sorry though. She has to enjoy the challenge at the very least. I mean, if she comes out of this alive and kicking her career would explode. Managing the arguably biggest gaming controversy in recent times has to count a lot.

Is this a bigger controversy than Anders is a terrorist in DA2?

I said arguably. I'm not derailing the topic to discuss that.

[Blackmind1]

It's definitely indoctrination. I'm not budging on this. The evidence is overwhelming.



http://i.imgur.com/irYQD.jpg

My guess is that they can't say anything about their fourth wall breaking social experiment until a week after the world has past their launch dates. There is no way Bioware make 3 amazing games, then throw it all away in a ten minute sequence that is incredibly ambiguous and dream like. It's too much of a u-turn.

[Rifneno]

Hmm. I just noticed this. I'm sure it's been brought up, but I can't remember seeing it despite spending WAY too much time in this thread. When Legion has Shepard in the geth server, he explains the surroundings saying "Your mind interprets our world as something familiar." Shepard then mutters under his breath that there's nothing familiar about it.

The line seemed out of place since, as Shepard says, there's nothing familiar about that place. It would explain the million and one similarities in the possibly dream ending, though.

[Vhalkyrie]

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Speaking of Starchild's lies, has anyone else ever wondered why his solution will no longer work? "Your being here, the first organic ever, means my solution will no longer work." Paraphrased, I forget the exact wording. I don't see how Shepard's being there means that at all.

Exactly, couldn't he just close the arms (or stop them opening anyway) and/or cut the Conduit and just watch (Palpatine style) as the organic fleets get destroyed? Then reap away!

Well, that is what happened.  The arms of the citadel were closed once the Reapers were informed by TIM what Shepard was planning.  Shepard was there to reopen them.

Why couldn't he just reclose them? And, the clincher, why doesn't he let Shepard bleed out? Hackett says it ain't working. Why not let Shepard bleed out, wait for a friendly husk/indoctrinated (since apparently Spacechild/citadel can't work his own parts) to come along and close them. If the Crucible ain't working and Shepard's the last chance and is bleeding out, why revive them and give them a chance to win? You were just about to win, Crucible's failed, Shepard's bleeding out, you've won!

And if you say 'hubris', well, I give up!

If we're going with the indoctrination theory, Shepard isn't on the Citadel at all.  Whatever choice Shepard makes doesn't end the war.  It decides whether Shepard accepts indoctrination, or rejects it (and s/he wakes on earth).

[Vhalkyrie]

Rifneno wrote...

Hmm. I just noticed this. I'm sure it's been brought up, but I can't remember seeing it despite spending WAY too much time in this thread. When Legion has Shepard in the geth server, he explains the surroundings saying "Your mind interprets our world as something familiar." Shepard then mutters under his breath that there's nothing familiar about it.

The line seemed out of place since, as Shepard says, there's nothing familiar about that place. It would explain the million and one similarities in the possibly dream ending, though.

That occurred to me, too.  The time in Geth space was to provide reference.  The child apparition appears to Shepard as non threatening so s/he doesn't see it for what it is.  A reaper.  Just as Legion provide Shepard a 'gun' in order to purge the Reaper infection from the geth networks.