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[EXMugamy]

People, good, I think the theory of Indoctrination, not only of Shepard, but also the player, the theory says that we betray friends. That is, the Bioware is making us confused, Casey Hudson admitted that he wanted that to happen. If they sold just a DLC on launch day, and it does not guarantee that you can see a DLC pack for the end? The gaming industry today is very mercenary. Remember: DLC - Day 1. You'll have others like the rumors of "The Truth"

[JCQuiinn]

WarChicken78 wrote...

kw0lf wrote...

I'm not sure the child can be thought of as part of indoctrination ... on Thessia, the Prothean would not have talked to Shepard if he/she was indoctrinated (it immediately identified KL as an indoctrinated presence).

Yes, and also later on TIMs base.

The AI has been broken by this point, otherwise Cerberus would not have been able to use it.

[NightHawkIL]

Wow, a thought just occurred to me that is giving me serious consideration to buying into this...Just remembered the line Joker used after Shepherd yells at him for making a joke. Something like: You've been half robot lately.

I've still got my doubts...We'll see.

[DerekDraygon777]

The more I think about what I've seen, the more I feel Indoctrination is more than theory...

The 'ending' would definitely be the end if you choose Control or Synthesis... because when you think about it, those paths ultimately lead to becoming part of the Reapers. In these cases, the Reapers would win, as Shepard is essentially the galaxy's last hope.

Then there's the Red path... the one which leads to more questions than answers. The other two options hold a finality, and yet the third holds possibility... not a clear and concise ending, but one full of unknowns. In choosing the Red option, you take a chance that what the Catalyst says is true... and if it isn't, then the hope that the boy says the galaxy possesses in spades may actually turn the tide.

So while all the endings pave the way to new beginnings, the 'Renegade' ending may actually be the 'Paragon' ending - one where Shepard decides to take the right path rather than the easy path.

So long as Bioware doesn't come out and say "Sorry folks, this is all set in stone and nothing you can say will change our minds," I will hold on to hope. Shepard may be down, but I seriously doubt Shepard is out. Lets give him (or her) time to recover and then we'll see what the future holds.

[Martukis]

Alyka wrote...

(First off, I apologize if this was already mentioned before.I haven't read all the threads and I don't feel like reading all of the 500+ pages in this thread but I did read the OP.)

I'm leaning towards the indoctrination theory.
I've come up with another speculation; It all comes down to colors.

Things that are blue:
- Mass Relays
- Lights on Reapers
- Husks eyes
- People who are indoctrinated
- TIM's eyes
- Paragon choices
- Catalyst/ "Starchild"

The color blue is associated with things that Shepard considers good, but things that are bad (ie:Reapers,etc) also have that color.

The only things that stick out to me that are red are Reaper beams.And what do they do? Destroy everything in their path.

If you go by what I just said about the color blue, it
equals bad, not good.Red represents good because if you choose the red side of the Citadel at the end of the game, you destroy the Reapers.Which is a good thing. This leads me to believe that Shepard was slowly being indoctrinated from the beginning; conditioned and tricked into believing that blue = good.

So now let's assume that; Blue = bad and Red = good.


- Catalyst is Blue light.(Bad) Tries to trick you.
- Anderson is seen as good in Shepards eyes.(Good) Tries to help you.
- TIM (Bad) Persuasive and ruthless.

At the end of the game,TIM is seen as being half-synthetic.He's no longer one or or the other; a "shade of gray".TIM even mentions that "there are many shades of gray".Shepard tried to get through to TIM to make him see that controlling the Reapers was a bad idea.And for a few moments, it seemed like TIM was listening but it didn't last because he was already indoctrinated.But I think TIM was trying to warn Shepard in an around-about way. It was as if he was saying "You think I'm evil, so if I try to convince you that gray is a good color, you should'nt believe me." And he was right because if you choose Synthetic at the end, the Reapers have their job cut out for them; half synthetic beings who can easily be controlled.

In my playthrough, just before TIM tries to shoot Anderson, I wasn't able to choose Paragon or Renegade choices,they were grayed out.The only dialogue I was able to choose was highlighted in white.Also, if I didn't choose the Renegade option and shoot TIM before he shoots Anderson, it will say "You failed the mission".
That's a good indication that Red = good and Blue = bad.

 I think this makes sense - perhaps when Shepherd was initially being indoc'd, the hope was to turn him into a great leader of organics (formally or not) and thus geared him toward choices that on their face are good, unifying and peace making. The codex entry on indoctrination does talk about the potential disaster of a high ranking individual being indoctrinated - so why not try to indoctrinate lower level officials/officers and work at getting them promoted?

[Blackmind1]

Hackett refers to Commander Shepard as "Shepard, Commander!" when he talks to him on the crucible.

That's how Harbinger refers to him!

[kyg_20X6]

I think the reason the save is back before Cerberus HQ is just because that is the last time you can visit everywhere in the galaxy. After that the Citadel is moved and the game changes. It's the last point you'd be able to play future DLC.

Doesn't really prove/deny post-game DLC either.

[Flammenpanzer]

Icinix wrote...

WarChicken78 wrote...

kw0lf wrote...

I'm not sure the child can be thought of as part of indoctrination ... on Thessia, the Prothean would not have talked to Shepard if he/she was indoctrinated (it immediately identified KL as an indoctrinated presence).

Yes, and also later on TIMs base.

Interesting point - it only brings up indoctrinated presence when pushed for information that it doesn't want the enemy to know. Everything prior to that would not be deemed as mission critical.

Then in cerberus base before giving Shep the information - it says "Security protocols have been disabled".

Interesting catch.

[Alyka]

JCQuiinn wrote...

kw0lf wrote...

I'm not sure the child can be thought of as part of indoctrination ... on Thessia, the Prothean would not have talked to Shepard if he/she was indoctrinated (it immediately identified KL as an indoctrinated presence).

This has been discussed before. It seems that the Protheans could only identify indoctrinated people who were at a critical stage. Shepherd seems to have had limited exposure to Reaper tech, nothing sustained over a long period of time. (Debatable, yes.) It is quite possible he was not quite at detectable levels yet.

Maybe Cerberus could have tweaked Shepard while they "rebuilt" him/her so that way their indoctrination status could be undetectable?

[Sl4sh3r]

Blackmind1 wrote...

Hackett refers to Commander Shepard as "Shepard, Commander!" when he talks to him on the crucible.

That's how Harbinger refers to him!

...

He goes..

"Shepard!.... Commander!

Not

"Shepard, Commander"

[WarChicken78]

Icinix wrote...

WarChicken78 wrote...

kw0lf wrote...

I'm not sure the child can be thought of as part of indoctrination ... on Thessia, the Prothean would not have talked to Shepard if he/she was indoctrinated (it immediately identified KL as an indoctrinated presence).

Yes, and also later on TIMs base.

Interesting point - it only brings up indoctrinated presence when pushed for information that it doesn't want the enemy to know. Everything prior to that would not be deemed as mission critical.

Then in cerberus base before giving Shep the information - it says "Security protocols have been disabled".

Oh, yes, you're right, I remember.
Good. Hope can still remain.

[Blackmind1]

Sl4sh3r wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

Hackett refers to Commander Shepard as "Shepard, Commander!" when he talks to him on the crucible.

That's how Harbinger refers to him!

...

He goes..

"Shepard!.... Commander!

Not

"Shepard, Commander"

Yes, but he's talking in place of a friendly entity, it wouldn't talk like that. All synthetics refer to him as Shepard Commader. EDI does, Legion does, Harbinger does. I can't remember if Sovereign gets to.

Why would he refer to him as Commander at this point in time? Why would it not just be "Shepard, The Crucible isn't working!"

Besides, the dictionary meaning of Crucible itself literally means "A severe test of one's faith and belief's"

http://www.merriam-w...ionary/crucible 

Modifié par Blackmind1, 16 mars 2012 - 07:05 .

[JCQuiinn]

Blackmind1 wrote...

Sl4sh3r wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

Hackett refers to Commander Shepard as "Shepard, Commander!" when he talks to him on the crucible.

That's how Harbinger refers to him!

...

He goes..

"Shepard!.... Commander!

Not

"Shepard, Commander"

Yes, but he's talking in place of a friendly entity, it wouldn't talk like that. All synthetics refer to him as Shepard Commader. EDI does, Legion does, Harbinger does. I can't remember if Sovereign gets to.

Yelling a characters name, a dramatic pause, then his rank is quite popular in media culture. I'm willing to bet there is a TV trope 'bout it.

[Ricvenart]

Shepard considers TIM's eyes as good? Sure he got together with Kaidan but he didn't like TIM too.


Just saw thing (probably posted before) actually helps alot, pointed out things I missed (like the Anderson parts) that are bad/weird but unlike other things helped.
Though I still have the issue of the game being incomplete/not sold as advertised. And many of those things could be put down to Dev mistakes, when do you interpert movement as body language and not just poor modelling you'd ignore, amoung other things. Whoops for going green, at least it's not blue. Though I still for many reason feel this was poorly handled for the value the delayed impact can have.

Shepard was still resisting on Thessia, but was there, Kai Leng though is already a puppet.

The first N7 mission bugged me, think it got lost in the rage of the endings but Shepard is just like "Sure lets bring unshielded reaper tech on board the normandy", he knows better then anyone what a tiny part can do yet it lets an awful lot slide regarding it in 3.

Kenson was highly functioning and god knows what she done while you were out, so highly functioning she could decieve you be revealing the plan in favour of getting you in the right place. Where he isn't killed because he's the first to be able to do so much against them he has value as an ally or research for them, that doesn't change, Reapers are cocky anyway they think they'll over come him always.

Modifié par Ricvenart, 16 mars 2012 - 07:18 .

[kyg_20X6]

I feel like the dreams and the end are different forms of indoctrination.

Reapers use infrasound to manipulate people and it's possible when they invade they send out a general, continuous burst. I don't know if Shepard's contact with it is from the ship or the Reaper's he meets up close or if it's something that is being broadcast from every Reaper in all the systems he visits. But what better 'general message' to broadcast to all organics, repeatedly, than 'all hope is lost and that resistance is futile'. In Shepard's dreams he constantly tries to rescue the child from the Reaper's but fails. EDIT: He is also blasted by the voices of those who have died trying to fight the Reapers. This may be how his mind interprets the infrasound. From wikipedia:

"One study has suggested that infrasound may cause feelings of awe or fear in humans. It was also suggested that since it is not consciously perceived, it can make people feel vaguely that supernatural events are taking place."

EDIT: And Shepard always seems to be doubting his mission afterwards.

But I think at the end we are seeing one Reaper, namely Harbinger, using rapid indoctrination to target one specific individual with very specific visions.

Modifié par kyg_20X6, 16 mars 2012 - 07:11 .

[MissMaster_2]

JCQuiinn wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

Sl4sh3r wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

Hackett refers to Commander Shepard as "Shepard, Commander!" when he talks to him on the crucible.

That's how Harbinger refers to him!

...

He goes..

"Shepard!.... Commander!

Not

"Shepard, Commander"

Yes, but he's talking in place of a friendly entity, it wouldn't talk like that. All synthetics refer to him as Shepard Commader. EDI does, Legion does, Harbinger does. I can't remember if Sovereign gets to.

Yelling a characters name, a dramatic pause, then his rank is quite popular in media culture. I'm willing to bet there is a TV trope 'bout it.

Yeah it's not the same. Also EDI calls her Commander Shepard. Not Shepard Commander.

[Blackmind1]

This forgotten realms book, the last in the series, may hold some clues!

http://www.o-love.ne...a.html#Crucible

Cyric.
One of the youngest and most powerful gods of the Toril pantheon.
Cyric.
Who ascended to godhead in the Avatar Trilogy.
Cyric.
Now a victim of his own sinister machinations.
He has gone insane. His destructive actions have caused concern in the highest levels of the deities. It is time for the older gods to intervene and bring this upstart back into line for the good of all Toril.
It is time for the trial of Cyric.

Let's not forget that just because we're currently in Sci-Fi, they can't call back to where they started: Baldur's Gate. The story of the crucible had a long lasting and profound impact on the entire future of the forgotten realms.

Particularly the line "
His destructive actions have caused concern in the highest levels of the deities. "

The first page is also very reminiscent of our trial

http://www.wattpad.c...-trial-of-cyric

Who shall live. Who shall die. What is, what shall be. Imagine I am watching from above, hovering in the sky as mortals are wont to think we gods do. The vast sea lies below, forever slapping at the rocky shore of the Sword Coast, where Candlekeep's towers of profane ignorance sit upon the pedestal of a black basalt tor. With a breath, I could blast that bastion of falsity down, powder the mortar between its stones and send its high walls crashing into the sea, scatter its twisted tomes to the bubbling mires and the deep, stinking oceans in the far corners of the world. Now imagine I am standing. The sea hangs upright before me, a sparkling green tapestry stretched across the endless expanse of the heavens, its white-capped waves spilling down again and again to taunt the shore below. The world has turned on end, and Candlekeep's towers hang upon that basalt tor like warts upon the tip of a black, cragged nose. With a thought, I could release the fullness of the sea to swallow that citadel of corruption, to scour that library of lies from the face of the world, to wash its books of deceit into oblivion and rinse from Toril even the memory of their false pages. It all depends on me, you see. Nothing is certain until I have beheld it and set it in place, until I have placed myself above it or below, before it or after. Let them keep their temple to Oghma the Unknowing, their shrines to Deneir the Prattler and Gond of the Forgestinking Breath, and even to Milil, Lord of Screeching Racket! Let them scorn me if they dare. I am the One, the All, the Face Behind the Mask. I am the Everything. Thus spoke Cyric the All on the Night of Despair, and in my anguish, I could not understand. I was as a child; I heard with a child's ears and saw with a child's eyes, and I understood with a child's mind. I despaired and I lost faith, and for that I suffered most horribly, as you shall see. But know also that the One found me when I was lost, that he returned me to the Way of Belief, that he burned my eyes with the Flames of Glory and Truth until I saw all that occurred in the world and in the heavens, and that he did all this so that in the account that follows, I might set down all the things done by men and by gods in complete accuracy and perfect truth. 

Now imagine I am standing. The sea hangs upright before me, a sparkling green tapestry stretched across the endless expanse of the heavens 

Check the earth above the crcible in the final walk! It's stretched out in the heavens above you like a fine tapestry!

This is a throwback!

Modifié par Blackmind1, 16 mars 2012 - 07:24 .

[MykeHuntz]

Don't know whether this has been mentioned yet, probably has but I'm not reading through 600 bloody pages to find out... Notice that when you speak to the child/catalyst, and when he refers you to your options, he refers to them as this:
"Will you destroy US? //// Or do you think you can control US?"
The way I read this, he is speaking in a way that makes himself sound like one of the Reapers, no? And if IT is untrue, by choosing to control/synthesize it can be inferred from this statement that Shepard would essentially "control" the Citadel/Catalyst itself.
Also note that the Citadel ITSELF was not Prothean-built, but Reaper Tech. And we all know what happens around Reaper Tech

[Dein Justin]

 I've been following this thread since the past week, so I'm not sure if this was posted in the few pages I skipped.

While I do believe the indoctrination theory, I do feel it as a bit off. If destroy was the only option keeping Shep alive in the fight, while the others are making Shep as being indoctrinated, wouldn't that only create only a single outcome as an actual endgame ending? It's as if BioWare forcing you to choose destroy in order to allow you to play a bit more of the game and see the outcomes of all the decisions you made in the trilogy, while choosing the other two options would only serve you being dead and huskified (probably kinda like Morinth Romance being a Critical Mission Failure). This would be a counter point against the indoctrination theory being started post-harbinger beam.

I have not yet ended the game, so I could not bring further evidences, but saw a post a few pages past, that it might be during the moment at Cerb HQ, where Shep sits in TIM's chair. I find that could be logical as it could be TIM's test for Shep to face Reapers in the endgame and it also allows for continuity if you chose synergy/control.

[noobcannon]

People4Peace wrote...

Debi-Tage wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Have you guys found any tweets from the person who delivered the devs coffee?

hahaha!!!!

<_< Really?

So she lacks perspective on the issue? I don't care if you dislike her or what she is trying to do but insulting her isn't the way to go.

As I said earlier, discussion about the Indoc. theory is the purpose of the thread. And I wouldn't do anything that could bring the ban hammer down....

he wasnt calling merizan the person who brings them coffee... at least that's not what i got from it.

[Chuck90210]

If the indoctrination theory and all presented evidence is true then they may have created an actual piece of literature.  Something with real depth.  Metaphor and stuff!~  Something to have real discussions about.  Genius.

[Jadebaby]

anyone know where I can get a indoctrination banner?

[Chuck90210]

Any story that has created this much emotional response and conjecture has accomplished its goal.!

[Jadebaby]

nm.

I believe totally in this now after watching that youtube vid.

This is Bioware showing us what real-life indoctrination might feel like. Whilst trolling us at the same time.