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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#15901
ArkkAngel007

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Cancer Puppet wrote...

If the ending is a hallucination, and there's going to be a DLC, free or paid, then Bioware has cheated everyone who bought the game. Why? Because it will mean that they've sold an incomplete product. Not everyone has an internet connection, so not everyone could receive the "true" ending, either.

Sorry, but as bad as the ending is, I don't believe that Bioware would try to pull that crap. It's a little too much.


Yet, the main argument about the endings is that they are lacking in that feeling of completion and closure.  

So ****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't?

I understand the issue with internet connections (though that doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone on here, obviously).  And I also believe this to be one of the worst business moves regarding a major franchise in this industry. 

But this is at the point of Fallout 3, which the added ending was very successful.  Some people will refuse to download because of personal reasons, and some because they won't be able to of course, but the majority not only have the ability to access it, but also are demanding it.  

#15902
KujaTheDarkOne2

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Cancer Puppet wrote...

If the ending is a hallucination, and there's going to be a DLC, free or paid, then Bioware has cheated everyone who bought the game. Why? Because it will mean that they've sold an incomplete product. Not everyone has an internet connection, so not everyone could receive the "true" ending, either.

Sorry, but as bad as the ending is, I don't believe that Bioware would try to pull that crap. It's a little too much.


Honestly? Bioware has already cheated everyone who bought the game with the bogus ending it shipped with.

So if they cheat in a way that gives me a better ending? Yeah, I'm all for that.

Also, not directly in reply to this, I wholeheartedly with what ArkkAngel007 and byne are saying about the Indoctrination theory and how it stands apart from the promise of DLC and makes sense of an otherwise nonsensical ending and such.

#15903
DangerSandler

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I was playing through the Cerberus HQ level again this morning and I noticed something.
Prothean VI "Have you come to recover me from indoctrinated forces?"

Shepard "Yes, I need to know what the Catalyst is."

Prothean VI "Security Protocols have been overridden. I will comply."

I got the hint that the Prothean VI detected that Shepard was indoctrinated, but since it's security protocols were overridden by TIM, it told Shepard what he wanted to know? It made it sound as if the protocols were not overridden, then the VI would not have helped Shepard. Kinda strange I thought

#15904
Apollo-XL5

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Sorry about that, I just typed fast. Here you go

This is how I believe shepard got indoctrinated.

After the events of ME1 harbinger (who I assume is the Alpha reaper, being the largest and oldest - check codex) realizes that shep is a massive threat to the reapers because of his ability to rally people to his cause and if he was able to rally the entire galaxy then the reapers plans for consuming all advance life in the galaxy would be doomed to fail. So first he sends the collectors to kill shep but did not figure on Cerberus (who i believe that the IM is not indoctrinated at this point, That happens before ME3) resurrecting shep and helping him.

Then after a number of confrontations with shep while controlling the collectors, harbinger realizes that killing him is not the way and so he must be indoctrinated. Now shep has had exposure to the reapers and their technology(object rho where he got a big does of reaper magic and could hear harbinger in his head), but at this point he has had 3 massive victories(one cost 300,000 batarians) against them and his will and resolve are too strong for indoctrination to work. But the ground work has been laid with the connection that harbinger made.

No skip to the start of ME3 and shep sees a boy playing in his garden, this is the last happy image that shep will see before everything goes to hell. Also harbinger is leading the attack on earth( and we know that he can connect with someone over a long distance, like the collectors while in darkspace.) and during the attack shep sees that boy in a vent after hearing a loud bang(I believe that from this point the boy is dead and this is the hallucination that harbinger creates.

The boy tells him that he can not save him and then disappears suddenly and was very quiet about it. Also note that anderson did not see or hear the boy. The we get to the killer moment. Shep sees the boy board a shuttle only to be killed by a reaper. The guilt shep feels is enough for a crack to show in his will and resolve and that is enough for harbinger to keep picking at during the course of the game.

And this is with the nightmares. The first one has shep chasing the boy until he sees the boy burn in front of him. The second nightmare(which happens after shep loses both victnas's son and Mordin, both of which have an effect on him) is the same as the first but now the forest is littered with dark figures, I thought at first these signified the dead, but I think it shows instead the reaper presence in his mind Also he hears voices in all three dreams and the voice get louder in each. The third and final dream( which occurs after shep and co were defeated by cerberus at Thessia) again is the same as the first two but with more black figures in it and also ends with the boy and a version of shep smiling back at him while burning. I think this means that the connection with shep is strong now and his resolve has fractured now allowing indoctrination to take place.

Which happens on earth at the conduit with harbinger right in front of him. So after the attack shep seems to have survived, although you hear on the radio that no one did, and heads up to the citadel where anderson who looks alittle hurt but not to the extent that a reaper laser would cause( look at shep for that) and then the IM turns up out of the blue. Now this I believe is the battle going on inside his mind, with anderson representing the side of shep resisting indoctrination and the IM who represents the reapers. Once shep gets the IM out of the way. It seems that he has won and anderson dies.

But this is to lead shep into a false sense of security because the final test is the catalyst. Which appears as the boy that caused shep to feel guilty and question himself. Also the catalyst(star child lol) also has both femsehp and male shep voices mixed with his own.
And he tells you the reapers plan but also gives hope in three options. The first is the one that shep should choose but it is in renegade red and the catalyst gives you reasons not to go through with it.(The geth would die, EDI would die and he would probably die, plus anderson is shown in the clip which is weird for a renegade choice) so then comes the option to control the reapers, which is the IM's choice and shep is told that everyone will live but he will die and reapers would also live and sot to go down this path would mean that indoctrination is successful.
Then there is the third choice which is similar to the control option and so the reapers would win again. So shep instead goes for destroy option, which means that the indoctrination failed and shep wakes up in the rubble in london where he was left. And the so the story would carry on in an upcoming DLC.

Also I think that the crucible is a reaper trojan horse to give the galaxy hope that they destroy the reapers but really all it does is take the galaxy's attention from the real target which is.......Harbinger. Kill him and the reapers fall.

And the bits with the relays blowing and the normandy, well since it is a dream then they would not make sense(because when idd our dreams ever make sense). But they maybe in there as a repercussion for the choice that shep makes (the relays blowing up.) and the normandy crashing on a planet(show shep that his friends who did not go on the run to the conduit with him did survive.)
And the bit right at the end with the old man and kid. "Tell me and another story about the shepard"
"Ok one more story" I think is a foreshadow to the finale DLC.

Thats what I think anyway, please let me know what you guys think. :)

os, is that any better?

#15905
Lugaidster

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MWatson17 wrote...

One of the things I took from what Casey Hudson said--and that apparently most people overlooked-- is that they are open to suggestions for writing new content. Instead of talking about how he said a bunch without saying anything, continue to hold the line by putting your suggestion in this thread:

http://social.biowar...8213/2#10098575

In the meantime, continue to hold the line!


I have no suggestion to make. A retcon is already painful enough. I've been here waiting for an official answer of why the hell they did that ending. Indoc theory looks good enough, but this answer pretty much kills it for me. It's not about hope anymore. They wanted a bittersweet ending, and of all the bittersweet flavors outhere, they had to pick the most flavorless one of them all.

#15906
crimsontotem

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I don't know about this thread anymore... didn't we gave out all the evidence we could find?

#15907
Valk72

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Go give your feedback here: http://social.biowar...8213/1#10098513

And Hold the Line!!

#15908
HairyMadDog1010

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Terran235 wrote...

Just finished the game. All 3 games uninstalled and in my box of forgotten games.


No feeling of accomplishment. Nothing. Unbelievable ending. Synthesis was kind of beautiful as an idea. But very unlikely. Who ever thought of these endings and thought they were good was on crack.



You may just kick your self for that. twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/status/180840202116407297

#15909
KujaTheDarkOne2

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DangerSandler wrote...

I was playing through the Cerberus HQ level again this morning and I noticed something.
Prothean VI "Have you come to recover me from indoctrinated forces?"

Shepard "Yes, I need to know what the Catalyst is."

Prothean VI "Security Protocols have been overridden. I will comply."

I got the hint that the Prothean VI detected that Shepard was indoctrinated, but since it's security protocols were overridden by TIM, it told Shepard what he wanted to know? It made it sound as if the protocols were not overridden, then the VI would not have helped Shepard. Kinda strange I thought


Hrm, you could have something there. I think I like thinking of it that way now, at any rate.

#15910
ArkkAngel007

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VanDex wrote...

So the latest Casey Hudson interview basically states that the existing endings are valid and there's nothing beyond them, right?


No.  That was not stated.  And even if it were, the endings can be what they are with the background still being this theory.  Nowhere does it state that the endings are literally what they are and appear to be, that there is no shenanigans going on behind them.

This is why sometimes I wish devs keep quiet until they can actaully say something in these situations.

#15911
Apollo-XL5

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KujaTheDarkOne2 wrote...

DangerSandler wrote...

I was playing through the Cerberus HQ level again this morning and I noticed something.
Prothean VI "Have you come to recover me from indoctrinated forces?"

Shepard "Yes, I need to know what the Catalyst is."

Prothean VI "Security Protocols have been overridden. I will comply."

I got the hint that the Prothean VI detected that Shepard was indoctrinated, but since it's security protocols were overridden by TIM, it told Shepard what he wanted to know? It made it sound as if the protocols were not overridden, then the VI would not have helped Shepard. Kinda strange I thought


Hrm, you could have something there. I think I like thinking of it that way now, at any rate.


I think  they are onto something too, should of added it to my theory :)

#15912
HairyMadDog1010

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crimsontotem wrote...

I don't know about this thread anymore... didn't we gave out all the evidence we could find?



Yep most of it now is people posting they have uninstalled or did sometihng else hasty, with a few posts of Jesica's tweets.

#15913
Lugaidster

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HairyMadDog1010 wrote...

Terran235 wrote...

Just finished the game. All 3 games uninstalled and in my box of forgotten games.


No feeling of accomplishment. Nothing. Unbelievable ending. Synthesis was kind of beautiful as an idea. But very unlikely. Who ever thought of these endings and thought they were good was on crack.



You may just kick your self for that. twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/status/180840202116407297


That's just saying our future, not shepard's...

#15914
DangerSandler

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Apollo-XL5 wrote...

KujaTheDarkOne2 wrote...

DangerSandler wrote...

I was playing through the Cerberus HQ level again this morning and I noticed something.
Prothean VI "Have you come to recover me from indoctrinated forces?"

Shepard "Yes, I need to know what the Catalyst is."

Prothean VI "Security Protocols have been overridden. I will comply."

I got the hint that the Prothean VI detected that Shepard was indoctrinated, but since it's security protocols were overridden by TIM, it told Shepard what he wanted to know? It made it sound as if the protocols were not overridden, then the VI would not have helped Shepard. Kinda strange I thought


Hrm, you could have something there. I think I like thinking of it that way now, at any rate.


I think  they are onto something too, should of added it to my theory :)


After I saw it ingame I even went to youtube just to check that I didnt imagine anything or misremember. I just thought it was weird how it didnt say "I will comply" on Thessia to Shepard when he was asking the VI questions, but then when Shepard asks the VI questions on the Cerberus Station he says "Security Protocols have been overridden. I will comply"? 

Modifié par DangerSandler, 17 mars 2012 - 03:19 .


#15915
byne

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ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Cancer Puppet wrote...

If the ending is a hallucination, and there's going to be a DLC, free or paid, then Bioware has cheated everyone who bought the game. Why? Because it will mean that they've sold an incomplete product. Not everyone has an internet connection, so not everyone could receive the "true" ending, either.

Sorry, but as bad as the ending is, I don't believe that Bioware would try to pull that crap. It's a little too much.


Yet, the main argument about the endings is that they are lacking in that feeling of completion and closure.  

So ****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't?

I understand the issue with internet connections (though that doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone on here, obviously).  And I also believe this to be one of the worst business moves regarding a major franchise in this industry. 

But this is at the point of Fallout 3, which the added ending was very successful.  Some people will refuse to download because of personal reasons, and some because they won't be able to of course, but the majority not only have the ability to access it, but also are demanding it.  


Except, even with Fallout 3, sure, my Lone Wanderer died, but she died saving the Wasteland in a way that made sense.

I didnt somehow permanently shut down all trade routes, trap people in certain towns while their families are in other towns unable to ever contact them again, or anything like that.

I also didnt use Wasteland Magic to make everyone part ghoul or anything silly like that.

The ending made some degree of sense, and even had an epilogue showing that everything was looking bright for the Capital Wasteland.

Mass Effect 3's end is like if you got to the end of Fallout 3, and the narrator was like "War. Lets change it."

Thats not what the series is about.

#15916
HairyMadDog1010

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Lugaidster wrote...

HairyMadDog1010 wrote...

Terran235 wrote...

Just finished the game. All 3 games uninstalled and in my box of forgotten games.


No feeling of accomplishment. Nothing. Unbelievable ending. Synthesis was kind of beautiful as an idea. But very unlikely. Who ever thought of these endings and thought they were good was on crack.



You may just kick your self for that. twitter.com/#!/JessicaMerizan/status/180840202116407297


That's just saying our future, not shepard's...


I am just saying it is kind of stupid(imo) to deleate years of gameplay when there may be more to go.

#15917
lookingglassmind

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Casey's empty statement was empty.

#15918
Rifneno

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Cancer Puppet wrote...

If the ending is a hallucination, and there's going to be a DLC, free or paid, then Bioware has cheated everyone who bought the game. Why? Because it will mean that they've sold an incomplete product. Not everyone has an internet connection, so not everyone could receive the "true" ending, either.

Sorry, but as bad as the ending is, I don't believe that Bioware would try to pull that crap. It's a little too much.



My father's still pissed that they cancelled MASH and the man has half a dozen 3G devices.  If people don't have internet, they should probably hop back in the time machine and get out of 1997.  The PC version flat out states that internet connection is a requirement.  The console versions have about a paragraph babbling about needing online to access multiplayer and bonus content.  And frankly who doesn't have even the option to connect their consoles to the Internet?  The only people I know that can't get their consoles online when they want are ones that have mod chips.  And **** them.  With a krogan. 


VanDex wrote...

So the latest Casey Hudson interview basically states that the existing endings are valid and there's nothing beyond them, right?



No.

#15919
Lugaidster

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ArkkAngel007 wrote...

VanDex wrote...

So the latest Casey Hudson interview basically states that the existing endings are valid and there's nothing beyond them, right?


No.  That was not stated.  And even if it were, the endings can be what they are with the background still being this theory.  Nowhere does it state that the endings are literally what they are and appear to be, that there is no shenanigans going on behind them.

This is why sometimes I wish devs keep quiet until they can actaully say something in these situations.


I completely agree on the fact that this theory fixes most of the non-sense behind the ending. But it doesn't fix the lack of closure without a DLC. If there were no plans for a DLC, whatever comes later is an afterthough. That's why I feel disappointed. I feel that this theory is the only thing valid out there, it'd be stupid otherwise, but without closure, it's still a bad ending. 

#15920
Dear Lanie

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VanDex wrote...

So the latest Casey Hudson interview basically states that the existing endings are valid and there's nothing beyond them, right?


well, he didn't really say much, thanking the fans, etc.  but i don't think this is the END, because if it was then.. what the hell was this part about:

So where do we go from here? Throughout the next year, we will support Mass Effect 3 by working on new  content.  And we’ll keep listening, because your insights and constructive feedback will help determine what that content should be. This is not the last you’ll hear of Commander Shepard.  

#15921
byne

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Lugaidster wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

VanDex wrote...

So the latest Casey Hudson interview basically states that the existing endings are valid and there's nothing beyond them, right?


No.  That was not stated.  And even if it were, the endings can be what they are with the background still being this theory.  Nowhere does it state that the endings are literally what they are and appear to be, that there is no shenanigans going on behind them.

This is why sometimes I wish devs keep quiet until they can actaully say something in these situations.


I completely agree on the fact that this theory fixes most of the non-sense behind the ending. But it doesn't fix the lack of closure without a DLC. If there were no plans for a DLC, whatever comes later is an afterthough. That's why I feel disappointed. I feel that this theory is the only thing valid out there, it'd be stupid otherwise, but without closure, it's still a bad ending. 


But this theory at the very least leaves open the possibility of closure, something none of the current endings do.

#15922
Jere85

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big walls of text.
But they make good points. I dont know if you guys have allready done this or are planning on doing this. But i would all send a mail to contact@bioware.com and send your complaints, they weigh heavier then some forum posts, Stay polite, dont rage on them, note your reasons of not liking the ending.

Also subtily hint in that you would not download and further DLC that does not involve any change to the ending as it basically runs the franchise inert. Hit BW where it hurts, their wallet.

HOLD THE LINE!

#15923
ArkkAngel007

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byne wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Cancer Puppet wrote...

If the ending is a hallucination, and there's going to be a DLC, free or paid, then Bioware has cheated everyone who bought the game. Why? Because it will mean that they've sold an incomplete product. Not everyone has an internet connection, so not everyone could receive the "true" ending, either.

Sorry, but as bad as the ending is, I don't believe that Bioware would try to pull that crap. It's a little too much.


Yet, the main argument about the endings is that they are lacking in that feeling of completion and closure.  

So ****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't?

I understand the issue with internet connections (though that doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone on here, obviously).  And I also believe this to be one of the worst business moves regarding a major franchise in this industry. 

But this is at the point of Fallout 3, which the added ending was very successful.  Some people will refuse to download because of personal reasons, and some because they won't be able to of course, but the majority not only have the ability to access it, but also are demanding it.  


Except, even with Fallout 3, sure, my Lone Wanderer died, but she died saving the Wasteland in a way that made sense.

I didnt somehow permanently shut down all trade routes, trap people in certain towns while their families are in other towns unable to ever contact them again, or anything like that.

I also didnt use Wasteland Magic to make everyone part ghoul or anything silly like that.

The ending made some degree of sense, and even had an epilogue showing that everything was looking bright for the Capital Wasteland.

Mass Effect 3's end is like if you got to the end of Fallout 3, and the narrator was like "War. Lets change it."

Thats not what the series is about.


It was a weak analogy, granted.  I was mostly demonstrating how despite the anger over that ending, it ended up being resolved well.  

#15924
Rifneno

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byne wrote...

Except, even with Fallout 3, sure, my Lone Wanderer died, but she died saving the Wasteland in a way that made sense.

I didnt somehow permanently shut down all trade routes, trap people in certain towns while their families are in other towns unable to ever contact them again, or anything like that.

I also didnt use Wasteland Magic to make everyone part ghoul or anything silly like that.

The ending made some degree of sense, and even had an epilogue showing that everything was looking bright for the Capital Wasteland.

Mass Effect 3's end is like if you got to the end of Fallout 3, and the narrator was like "War. Lets change it."

Thats not what the series is about.


This.  The destruction of the relay network leaves the galaxy in shambles regardless of anything the player does.  I don't see them ending it like this.

Now that I think about it...  kind of reminds me of the ending of the Xenosaga series, where they lost all FTL travel at the end, stranding people galaxies away from their friends and family.  As I recall that ending was not well receieved either.

#15925
Totally Not Swaggacide

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Even if this wasn't Biowares plan I say they steal the idea and make it their own.
Greedy EA gets more money
We get the endings we want
Sounds good to me