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[KujaTheDarkOne2]

keith123456789 wrote...

All they had to do with Liara have her say something at shepard memorial then before it end it shows her holding a little asari kid hand this is your father commander Shepard savior of the universe...its not that freakin hard bioware/ea story writes itself idiots

I would've loved closure like that. People saying "it's not necessary" and other crap like that can jump in a lake. I wanna see my little blue children, Bioware! *angry tears*

[S Atomeha]

KujaTheDarkOne2 wrote...

keith123456789 wrote...

All they had to do with Liara have her say something at shepard memorial then before it end it shows her holding a little asari kid hand this is your father commander Shepard savior of the universe...its not that freakin hard bioware/ea story writes itself idiots

I would've loved closure like that. People saying "it's not necessary" and other crap like that can jump in a lake. I wanna see my little blue children, Bioware! *angry tears*

can't she not reproduce for a while?

[FortuneGrand]

I'm not usually one to post on forums and whatnot (this is my first on
BSN). I was also a latecomer in the Mass Effect series, after hearing
about the success of Mass Effect 2 and how you could transfer your save
file over from Mass Effect 1 I could not resist getting myself into such
an epic, involving and cinematic experience, since I've always been a
strong believer of video games as a storytelling medium. Seeing how my
choices persisted through three consecutive games in shaping my
adventure is what sold the series for me. This is what brings me to the
heart of the problem for me and a lot of others. Enough lying to myself,
I admit that after finishing Mass Effect 3, I was somewhat not entirely
satisfied. Immediately upon completion however, my brain was still in
awe at the journey I'd just been through in the trilogy and accepted the
ending for what it was, except something was not quite right. I'm sure
those who enjoyed the ending could argue that there is a way to make
sense of it through certain interpretations, given its sudden tonal and
philosophical shift during the climax, naturally tons of debate will
follow. Just like how the against-arguments also work with
interpretation.

I on the other hand, despite 'accepting' the
conclusive nature of the game, actually felt a deep sense of
depression...no other game has ever made me feel this way. And I was
naturally curious to find out more about what the endings meant, and
what themes they ultimately symbolised. This led me to BSN, where I, to
no surprise, found so many people to feel the same way and be
disappointed by the lack of closure and variety presented in the final
scenes of the game. I've been lurking in the forums literally 24/7 since
beating Mass Effect 3, where throughout the time spent here I kept
track of almost every thread and topic posted, trying to find some
comfort and answers as well as thinking about all the theories the
people have come up with whether they were strongly agreed on, supported
or ridiculed.

Slowly I became convinced that the ending was not
what it seemed, and bought into certain parts of the 'Indoctrination
Theory'. Maybe I was just in denial and consumed by 'mob mentality', but
maybe it was my dissatisfaction that led me to the forums in the first
place and conclude that the endings were simply lacking in quality
compared to the rest of the experience in what I would otherwise
probably consider the best games/stories I have ever played and
experienced. I really tried to rationalize and be constructive with my
thoughts about it all but there were always the underlying feelings of
confusion and anger. I'm sure all the hardcore fans out there have been
living in these forums for closure too, and kept up to date on the
latest arguments from both sides as well as the countless articles from
gaming and mainstream websites.

I think the donations and the
movement are truly brilliant and shows just how dedicated and loyal fans
are to the series, and I've been trying to keep my hopes up about
Bioware keeping to Casey Hudson's 'promises' by delivering a surprise
extended ending, since I thought if they could pull this off right it
would really be the biggest and most ambitious stunt/twist ever
attempted and a true spectacle in gaming experience. I believed it was
all an act to save spoiling the true ending for the global fanbase, and
through 'real-time player indoctrination', they would soon announce the
news of an ending DLC after all the speculation and interpretation they
wanted from the fans in order to make the end of the trilogy truly
memorable (after everyone had completed the game), instead of simply
cheaply trying to gain publicity through shock factor. If this was the
case, the company would achieve godmode in my eyes. However, the longer I
waited and the more responses I came across from the developers, the
more I became worried that the current ending was exactly the way they
intended it to be. This however, does not mean all hope is lost. Right
now I am trying to fight these thoughts and stay positive, and I need
all of your support in having faith.

I understand a lot of people
are upset about what Casey Hudson said in regards to the conclusion of
Mass Effect 3. Some may even give up trying to "hold the line", and has
taken his statement as a definitive "no" to changing/expanding the
ending. I'm here to share my thoughts, feelings and hopefully to help
share some perspective on why his letter is actually a beacon of hope.
In case some of you guys haven't read it yet, here is what he said:

"There’s
been a lot of discussion and debate about the conclusion of Mass Effect
3, so I thought I’d share my  perspective with you here. I’ll avoid
outright spoilers, but I’d still recommend finishing the game and
experiencing it for yourself before reading this. 

For the last
eight years, Mass Effect  has been a labor of love for our team; love
for the characters we’ve created, for the medium of video games, and for
the fans that have supported us.  For us and for you, Mass Effect 3 had
to live up to a lot of expectations, not only for a great gaming
experience, but for a resolution to the countless storylines and
decisions you’ve made as a player since the journey began in 2007. So we
designed Mass Effect 3 to be a series of endings to key plots and
storylines, each culminating in scenes that show you the consequences of
your actions.  You then carry the knowledge of these consequences with
you as you complete the final moments of your journey.

We always
intended that the scale of the conflict and the underlying theme of
sacrifice would lead to a bittersweet ending—to do otherwise would
betray the agonizing decisions Shepard had to make along the way. 
Still, we wanted to give players the chance to experience an inspiring
and uplifting ending; in a story where you face a hopeless struggle for
basic survival, we see the final moments and imagery as offering victory
and hope in the context of sacrifice and reflection.

We've had some incredibly positive reactions to Mass Effect 3, from the New York Times declaring it “a gripping, coherent triumph”, to Penny Arcade
calling it “an amazing accomplishment”, to emails and tweets from
players who have given us the most profound words of appreciation we've
ever received.  

But we also recognize that some of our most
passionate fans needed more closure, more answers, and more time to say
goodbye to their stories—and these comments are equally valid. Player
feedback such as this has always been an essential ingredient in the
development of the series.

I am extremely proud of what this team
has accomplished, from the first art concepts for the Mass Effect
universe to the final moments of Mass Effect 3.  But we didn't do it on
our own.  Over the course of the series, Mass Effect has been a shared
experience between the development team and our fans—not just a shared
experience in playing the games, but in designing and developing them.
An outpouring of love for Garrus and Tali led to their inclusion as love
interests in Mass Effect 2.  A request for deeper RPG systems led to
key design changes in Mass Effect 3.  Your feedback has always
mattered.  Mass Effect is a collaboration between developers and
players, and we continue to listen.

So where do we go from here?
Throughout the next year, we will support Mass Effect 3 by working on
new content. And we’ll keep listening, because your insights and
constructive feedback will help determine what that content should be.
This is not the last you’ll hear of Commander Shepard. 

We look
forward to your continued support and involvement as we work together to
shape the remaining experiences in the story of the Mass Effect
trilogy.

Thanks for taking this journey with us.
 
Casey Hudson"

Indeed
I am starting to believe they never predicted the backlash to be so
severe with the ending they originally intended in the first place. And
indeed this is typical PR damage control, after all they are an
organization and need to be smart in issuing a statement and respond in a
way that causes the least possible harm to their business. This is
understandable of course, and sometimes that means being vague and not
answering each and every question straight away, because not everyone
will agree with their plan of action either way.

The way I see
Casey Hudson's response is that it's a clever way in addressing several
things, to sell the game further, to simply show that they are listening
and have in the past let the fans co-create and continue the Mass
Effect universe, as well as astutely admitting that they had not
prepared for such a reaction from fans, by 'validating' all the negative
feedback. He/Bioware could have clearly kept silent for longer, and at
the very least he is showing that he cares by simply acknowledging the
controversy instead of just 'disappearing' now that they've sold
millions of copies. I know some angry fans will probably be even angrier
after reading what he said, as I know I was initially, but if you put
yourself for a moment in the shoes of ones who actually loved the
ending, you will view his statement in a completely different
perspective. Those pro-ending fans may think that everything was
absolutely fine and would hate to see a change, and just like they
should respect our opinions, we should respect theirs. So understandably
Casey isn't addressing any of the 'problems' right away as it could
backfire and cause even more friction within the community. The
pro-ending fans would call out Bioware for giving in their integrity and
being weak in sticking with their artistic vision, even for simply
apologizing in any fashion, and I think the last thing we need right now
is a divide in the fanbase.

Bioware/Casey Hudson at this point
are simply being withholding and cautious whilst getting every bit of
information they need to decide what their next step is. Of course they
are trying to maintain public relations at this point, but they
WILL listen to fans and let it ultimately become the outcome in their
future plans, simply because pleasing the masses is good business. Call
it stalling if you wish, just remember that Mass Effect is Casey
Hudson/Bioware's brainchild, and they would not let this franchise rot
to hell like this with the fanbase. I'm an impatient person myself, but
honestly ask yourself, would you wait a year for the release of a well
thought out and a quality-produced ending, or not have one at all? As
long as our voices are heard through constructive feedback (and you have
all done amazingly by the way), we will accomplish what we came here
for. There is now a 'Suggested Changes' thread which I urge all of you
passionate fans to post your opinions in, because every single one of
them matters. Maybe this is all just blind optimism, but nobody ever
got anywhere by being negative. I've never posted on BSN and hardly any
other forums until now, and I know a lot of you silent visitors are just
as passionate about what you want as the vocal ones are. Now's your
chance to speak up! Thanks for your time.

[KujaTheDarkOne2]

S Atomeha wrote...

KujaTheDarkOne2 wrote...

keith123456789 wrote...

All they had to do with Liara have her say something at shepard memorial then before it end it shows her holding a little asari kid hand this is your father commander Shepard savior of the universe...its not that freakin hard bioware/ea story writes itself idiots

I would've loved closure like that. People saying "it's not necessary" and other crap like that can jump in a lake. I wanna see my little blue children, Bioware! *angry tears*

can't she not reproduce for a while?

I mean, like, it would be a time skip sorta thing. So time would be a little irrelevant.

[GunMoth]

@FortuneGrand:
", my brain was still in
awe at the journey I'd just been through in the trilogy and accepted the
ending for what it was, except something was not quite right. I'm sure
those who enjoyed the ending could argue that there is a way to make
sense of it through certain interpretations, given its sudden tonal and
philosophical shift during the climax, naturally tons of debate will
follow. Just like how the against-arguments also work with
interpretation.

I on the other hand, despite 'accepting' the
conclusive nature of the game, actually felt a deep sense of
depression...no other game has ever made me feel this way. And I was
naturally curious to find out more about what the endings meant, and
what themes they ultimately symbolised."

As someone who heavily enjoyed Evangelion when I was growing up, I felt myself going through something similar that you did.

The ending was presented in a vague sort of Deus Ex Machina. That sort of ending is usually done in Greek tragedies. It allows the audience to consider a lot of the philosophies and ethical issues that the play addresses.

This was something that was implemented in many sci fi films / series of the 1900s. (The cube had a special directors cut version. Episodes of the Twilight Zone did this. etc. etc.) However, the issue from a technical point of view is that in shows like the Twilight Zone, Evangelion etc. are HEAVY on symbolism and interpretive elements. Mass Effect's presentation was a space opera / military drama where most of the narrative could easily be taken for face value.

The last 10 minutes of the game experience a HUGE shift in the way the game had been presented to us compared to how it had been presented in the last couple games.

That is an issue with continuity. When selling a series of books or movies the director /author HAS to be consistent when selling the product or else its going to upset much of their following.

Another thing the devs have to consider is how the players decisions up to that point are ultimately meaningless. For example: I saved Legion and Tali in my "perfect" ME2 playthrough. I worked really hard to maintain their relationship and cultivate a cultural understanding between the two groups. However, because of the endings my actions are ultimately meaningless as synthetics are either destroyed or combined with organics. (This is taking the ending at face value).

There's a lot going on. No doubt about that. We just need to make sure we're consistent and civil about our opinions and really get ourselves out there.

Modifié par GunMoth, 17 mars 2012 - 07:08 .

[GunMoth]

snip

Modifié par GunMoth, 17 mars 2012 - 07:06 .

[GunMoth]

Something funny I also enjoyed was that their whole marketing campaign was "TAKE EARTH BACK" yet there is never a scene where we see Shepard standing on Earth "taking it back". Just JokerJunglePlanet.

[beyzend]

what? I only lost Jack. Not sure how that happened tho. I did the loyalty mission with her, maybe it's because I didn't do a whole lot with her because I was planning to do another run.

[KujaTheDarkOne2]

GunMoth wrote...

Something funny I also enjoyed was that their whole marketing campaign was "TAKE EARTH BACK" yet there is never a scene where we see Shepard standing on Earth "taking it back". Just JokerJunglePlanet.

If by "funny" you mean terribly depressing, then yes.

[Red Starblazer]

beyzend wrote...

what? I only lost Jack. Not sure how that happened tho. I did the loyalty mission with her, maybe it's because I didn't do a whole lot with her because I was planning to do another run.

I actually teared up when I lost Mordin and Legion...

[KujaTheDarkOne2]

Red Starblazer wrote...

beyzend wrote...

what? I only lost Jack. Not sure how that happened tho. I did the loyalty mission with her, maybe it's because I didn't do a whole lot with her because I was planning to do another run.

I actually teared up when I lost Mordin and Legion...

Mordin in particular got me. It was when he started singing his song.

Modifié par KujaTheDarkOne2, 17 mars 2012 - 07:27 .

[S Atomeha]

KujaTheDarkOne2 wrote...

S Atomeha wrote...

KujaTheDarkOne2 wrote...

keith123456789 wrote...

All they had to do with Liara have her say something at shepard memorial then before it end it shows her holding a little asari kid hand this is your father commander Shepard savior of the universe...its not that freakin hard bioware/ea story writes itself idiots

I would've loved closure like that. People saying "it's not necessary" and other crap like that can jump in a lake. I wanna see my little blue children, Bioware! *angry tears*

can't she not reproduce for a while?

I mean, like, it would be a time skip sorta thing. So time would be a little irrelevant.

I mean can asari reproduce before the matron stage?

[Terran235]

KujaTheDarkOne2 wrote...

Red Starblazer wrote...

beyzend wrote...

what? I only lost Jack. Not sure how that happened tho. I did the loyalty mission with her, maybe it's because I didn't do a whole lot with her because I was planning to do another run.

I actually teared up when I lost Mordin and Legion...

Mordin in particular got me. It was when he started singing his song.

I was sad for that same reason, got teary eyed. But lets not forget when LEGION asks "Do "i" have a soul" Adorable and sad at the same time.

[KujaTheDarkOne2]

S Atomeha wrote...

KujaTheDarkOne2 wrote...

S Atomeha wrote...

KujaTheDarkOne2 wrote...

keith123456789 wrote...

All they had to do with Liara have her say something at shepard memorial then before it end it shows her holding a little asari kid hand this is your father commander Shepard savior of the universe...its not that freakin hard bioware/ea story writes itself idiots

I would've loved closure like that. People saying "it's not necessary" and other crap like that can jump in a lake. I wanna see my little blue children, Bioware! *angry tears*

can't she not reproduce for a while?

I mean, like, it would be a time skip sorta thing. So time would be a little irrelevant.

I mean can asari reproduce before the matron stage?

I think so... I don't recall it being said they could only reproduce then. I mean, I'd have to check to be sure, but still.

[arkhine]

I'm starting to get less and less convinced we're going to get something. I wish I could get the iPad app but I have an iPhone.

[noobcannon]

KujaTheDarkOne2 wrote...

keith123456789 wrote...

All they had to do with Liara have her say something at shepard memorial then before it end it shows her holding a little asari kid hand this is your father commander Shepard savior of the universe...its not that freakin hard bioware/ea story writes itself idiots

I would've loved closure like that. People saying "it's not necessary" and other crap like that can jump in a lake. I wanna see my little blue children, Bioware! *angry tears*

i truly believe the only reason they didn't do that is because he's being indoctrinated and the game isn't really over yet. but i know what you mean. really hope we hear something soon.

[noobcannon]

arkhine wrote...

I'm starting to get less and less convinced we're going to get something. I wish I could get the iPad app but I have an iPhone.

i thought it was supposed to work on both?

[KujaTheDarkOne2]

We're all getting pretty off topic though, peoples. This is an Indoctrination theory thread, afterall. There's undoubtedly other threads we can go to if we want to discuss the deaths of our comrades, or to wallow in doubt and fear that no change or addition to the end is coming.

We can, however, mention the fallen as motivators for holding the line! Would Mordin be alright with the ridiculous plot holes and lack of logic inherent in a literal interpretation of the endings? No! It is for him and all the others lost that we fight - and for our comrades and friends that yet remain - and even those who do not yet exist (blue babies and what have you)! Yes, for all of them we fight to uphold the truth that is the Indoctrination theory!

[kyg_20X6]

I think Liara's beyond the wandering Maiden stage. They've talked about blue babies in the last two games and I think the LI variant of her Earth farewell was the 'meld'.

[arkhine]

noobcannon wrote...

i thought it was supposed to work on both?

Not seeing it in my app store app. I'll check iTunes later.

[Ichigo75XBL]

Holding the line here in Mississippi!

[Nette]

EVERYBODY, LISTEN UP! YOU REALLY NEED TO READ THIS, RIGHT NOW! : http://social.biowar...10084349-1.html

And STAY AWAY from the"Operation:Goliath" MP this weekend! It's a PR trick! They're trying to shift focus from the rage about the bad endings. Don't let them! show them that there's only one way to calm these raging flames. Hold the line!

[ValendianKnight]

Yeah I' avoiding ME3 for a little while, including this weekend. I don't think I have the energy to think about this any further. Let the chips fall where they have to. I like ME3, I don't care for the series like I did one freaking week ago. I was waving around "GOTY!" Every time the topic came up, now I'll look elsewhere.

[Flammenpanzer]

Edit: This is the wrong thread...back to megatopic I go....

Modifié par Flammenpanzer, 17 mars 2012 - 08:16 .

[Hardcover]

 I read the first post (Read through over six hundred pages? I'm not afraid to pick up a Tom Clancy novel, but sweet jelly-baby jebas I'd never catch up!) and, honestly, this thread has made me want to replay the single-player campaign, bearing the theories raised and evidence cited in mind. Lookingglassmind's theory about player indoctrination made a scary amount of sense to me (which may just mean I'm just as crazy as he is) and somehow I can totally buy Bioware doing exactly that, then releasing a "Final Battle" DLC in the coming months.

You people have devoted an incredible amount of time and brainsweat in this thread. And as someone who loved the entire trilogy despite it's flaws (Mako, probing, and now the crazy ending), I'm starting to think in terms of taking notes and seeing how much of this stuff I can catch in a new playthrough.

Oh, and if this is what Bioware is doing, well, I think George C. Scott said it best.

Modifié par Hardcover, 17 mars 2012 - 08:17 .