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I'll bite. After all if this theory want's to hold some weight it needs to be able to defend itself right?FalconRising wrote...
Playing devil's advocate in the interest of promoting discussion. Apologies if this was covered somewhere in the preceding 659 pages.
While we don't see him in person I believe this is why there is some skepticism about him being real. Shepherd follows a straight path to the console and we can see behind him in a few frames that the route he took has not changed. So how did TIM get in the room after him without alerting Shepherd someone was following? Further where is he hiding if he was already in the room? Granted him being cloaked is a possibility especially given his “upgrades” but then wouldn’t’ we have heard this turn off before his appearance?From a technical standpoint those sounds are already in the game so I can’t see why they would have not been inserted except as an oversight-TIM appearing on the CitadelI'll point out that before this point, you haven't seen TIM in person for a very long time, if you actually see him in person anywhere in the game (I fear I can't remember). He even left his own space station before you showed up. We know for a fact that he's indoctrinated from the Prothean VI's dialogue, and we've seen recorded footage of him receiving Reaper implants. It's not much of a stretch (given what we're already accepting) to imagine that he can manipulate the image of himself before it's sent out via quantum communications, and that he moved to the Citadel around the same time or maybe even before he warned the Reapers of Shepard's thrust against Earth.
I agree that the breathing scene can only follow the destruction choice. There isn’t anything really around that nor should there be not matter the interpritation. But let me throw up a possibility that BW could have done for other options. The control option could have ended with some trait of Shepard’s being expressed via the Reapers. The ending with the old man and child could have been reserved for this moment where it’s clear that some time has passed and Shepard’s sacrifice worked the galaxy remains at peace. Even better dialogue could be added to have the boy ask about the Reapers and what happened to then confirming that went back to dark space rather than being completely wiped out.The synthesis option has endless possibilities of ways to show Shepard’s influence of the outcome. Hell the ending presented in the game doesn’t really even fit what the kid says. The Reaper’s become “conscious” is about the only thing I can see changes. There is no showing of the next evolutionary step. There is no evidence of any kind of transcendence. It’s exactly the same as the Control option just with a green light instead of blue.-The secret cutscene of Shepard breathingThere's nothing wrong with this, but I'd like to point out that the Destruction path is the only choice where Shepard's body isn't disintegrated on camera, which makes it the only path that could logically contain said cutscene, whether you subscribe to Indoctrination Theory or not. In other words, if the events on the Citadel are indeed actually happening, that cutscene can only follow that choice, so I don't think Destruction can be inferred to be the right or happy ending on the basis of the existence of said cutscene. It can be argued that disintegration is symbolic of successful indoctrination, but I feel that source material that easily goes either way like this doesn't make for strong support.
The eye’s thing is nothing. TIM’s eyes just show that he is part synthetic as did Saren’s. It only makes sense that Shepard’s do the same after what happens in ME2 and considering that his flesh is stripped away revealing this.There are screenshots/video of Shepard's eyes strongly resembling TIM's for an instant during the Control path. To me, if this means anything, it means that TIM was indoctrinated long before ME2, which is a whole new can of worms.
I haven’t seen anything on why the chatter might be important so not sure what this is in response to. My question though even before reading the ID theory was why is another wave not sent in immediately to follow and instead they are sent to retreat? Harbinger leaves the beam completely unprotected shortly after Shepard wakes up to continue walking. Send in a second team! But this has nothing to do with the ID thing unless the idea is to make Shepard think only he can do it now and he has to keep going, idk.As for the gun I agree this appears to be more or less just the games mechanics not wanting to punish you by making you run out of ammo. It also goes a bit of damage against the ID theory. Wouldn’t Shepard know how much ammo his pistol should have in one clip? Wouldn’t exceeding that amount be a big red flag to a seasoned veteran of war that something is not quite right? My point is Shepard is never meant to exceed an ammo limit to come to this kind of conclusion. It’s not a hint either way just the game working.-The so-called "Ilos Run"The radio chatter here is not significant either way. They clearly think everyone making the charge died, including you, and no one is alive or otherwise able to report that this assumption is inaccurate. I admit I have no idea why this Carnifex suddenly has infinite ammo, but I think this can reasonably be explained as BW trying to make this part feel super epic (like the end of COD4) but doing it in such a way that made people question the story instead. Adjusting HP such that each Husk dies in 1 shot and the Marauder die in 3 shots, and having you die if you miss, would have been a less obtrusive way to do it.
My thought on this is that not all of Shepard is taken at that point. A part of him is still controlling his mind and able give him a way out that he will recognize. It is after all still his mind so he must have some say in controlling how his imagination works. The kid is not necessarily evil or an agent of the Reaper’s he is a piece of Shepard (symbolized by both male and female voices being played alongside the kids) that is being corrupted to try and sway him to an outcome they want.-Choosing IndoctrinationI hope I don't mind**** anyone, including myself. Here goes. I find it kind of hard to believe that if the events on the Citadel are Shepard's mind's interpretation of Indoctrination, then the path that equates to resisting indoctrination is the path you've been working towards all along. I'll elaborate; if indoctrination is the type of control you have to choose to accept, on whatever level, it makes more sense to disguise that acceptance as something the subject is known to be receptive to. Reaper files on Shepard must be extensive, they know s/he's working to destroy them. In other words, if all of that is a hallucination intended to indoctrinate Shepard, then to me Destruction seems the most likely to lead to indoctrination, as Shepard's mind has accepted the fantasy - after all, it came to Shepard disguised as the goal Shepard's been working towards all along. In fact, if this the case, then it's likely that choosing any of Destruction, Control or Synthesis within the confines of the hallucination leads to Shepard's indoctrination, and the only way out would be to shoot the god-child/AI, shoot yourself, or something else that reflects exertion of your will over that of Sovereign's. This is all, of course, assuming our understanding of indoctrination is accurate.
tl;drThe source material contains reasonable explanations for TIM being on the Citadel, Shepard's breathing cutscene, and some parts of the "Ilos run". There are other loose threads, but without these three points I don't feel Indoctrination Theory holds water. I'm sure I didn't comprehensively answer all of the points raised by Indoctrination Theory. I hope this leads to a stronger discussion.
Thanks for reading.
tl:drTIM appearance doesn’t quiet meet the standards one would expect from just the game mechanics alone if he was there on the Citadel all the time. Shepard’s influence on the galaxy in the control and synthesis endings is completely unknown aside from seeing Reapers retreat which doesn’t adequately show us what we are told will happen. The Ilos run is just a poor spot of writing. I don’t think the ID theory is written off with just what you have said so far.
Modifié par GamiSB, 17 mars 2012 - 09:57 .
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I also took the interrupt at the end of the dialogue between the Salarian Dalatress, Wrex, and Primarch Victus. So I have the option to kill or spare Kai Leng? That will be a tough choice.
