57139 réponses à ce sujet

[sunnie7699]

Tailen wrote...

ZyionPrime wrote...

My mind instantly went to Sigmund Freud's structural model of the human psyche. Each of the characters shown in the flashes would represent a part of the psyche: Joker represents the Id, which is the part that focus's on a person's innate desires (possibly renegade decisions); Liara represent the Super-Ego, the part of the psyche that focuses on conditional beliefs (possibly paragon decisions); andAnderson represent the Ego, which is the part that mediates between the Id and Super-Ego. Taking that into consideration, the scene with TIM at the end makes more sense as it is your Ego that is loosing the fight to indoctrination (meaning that you are effectively loosing control of your own decisions).

You also see all of them sort of nodding in a half smile. Which can be taken as one of two ways. Either as a "farewell" expression given to you to show your complete loss of control to the Reapers. Or as a "good job" expression showing that you were able to overcome the Reapers and be able to maintain control over yourself. Now keep in mind im basing this assumption on knowledge I got from psychology class several years ago and only remember brief descriptions of Freud's structural model of the human psyche. So I could be right or wrong in this instance. But none the less, the fact that you see flashes those same three characters for every ending is just odd.

Interesting insight.  While some might accuse you of grasping at straws here, I find the opposite.  I can only imagine that if BioWare were going the route of a battle within Shepard's mind, doing their homework on the human psyche would have been the first thing on their list.  The kinds of clues we're finding throughout the ending absolutely reek of exactly that.

Manifestations of his personality abound...

ZyionPrime wrote...

As for the scene with Joker trying to escape the energy wave created by your decision on the Citadel; I think people are trying to take this too litterally and need to take it in forms of symbols that have meaning. Rather then trying to figure out the plot holes that led to Joker fleeing the battle at the end, look at what is happening. You see Joker trying desperately to escape the massive energy wave produced by the Citadel. Taking into account what I said earlier about Joker representing your innate desires, you can start to peice together what the scene means. Your innate desires are trying to escape from the decision you made on the Citadel. This can easily represents the consequences that follow if you let your desires take hold of you. But then again, if that is true why is it shown for destroying the Reapers? I think the reason is simple, this is the Reapers saying that resistance was futile. In the indoctrinated endings its the Reapers saying that escape from our control was impossible to begin with. In the ending where you refuse the Reapers control, it is the Reapers giving the final FU to Shepard effectively saying, "no matter what you do, you will loose."

There is something else that I've noticed about that scene right when the Normandy starts falling aparent. In both the control and synthesis endings, the scene cuts out right before you see the Normandy explode. In the destruction ending, you actually see the explosion of the Normandy. This could coincide with my theory as the Reapers' final FU to Shepard as it feels more violent and destructive.

 

This is very interesting.  It's an extremely, extremely subtle difference -- but you're absolutely right.  In the "Destroy" ending, you see an instant more of the Normandy's destruction.

Why would they have any reason to cut that scene any different?  Again, where someone else would accuse you of reaching, I join you in appreciating BioWare's attention to the symbolic details.  I see beauty where others see coincidence.

Whoa, I watched all three endings and I don't know if it's just me but for destroy you see the explosion, for control you see just the start of the explosion, and for synthesise you don't see the explosion at all

[Arivle]

Well... to be honest I don't care what twisted conspiracy theory BW will come up with as long as they come with some... and FAST. Since the current ME3 endings *SUCK BIGTIME* and together with basically required multiplayer to get the "least crappy one" it is this game's biggest flop. Suffice to say - now that I see how bad they are, that multiplayer req is no longer a big issue even, since the frustration from these endings just makes me want to kill all in the galaxy together with me anyway. :-P What EA might listen to is that such ending actually ruins my intention to play any future DLCs of this game. What for? It ended all bad anyway.

Modifié par Arivle, 18 mars 2012 - 10:31 .

[sunnie7699]

DangerSandler wrote...

DonutsDealer wrote...

Don't know if anyone noticed this. When you do the suicide run to the beam there isn't a single tree, right? Now after you wake up from Harby's laser and look behind you you see a TREE! Definitely it's an hallucination to me.

There's trees on both sides when running to the beam. 

What about the little black swaying trees on the ground after you wake up from the explosion? They remind me a lot of the trees in the background of Shep's dreams, and also you don't see them there before Shep gets knocked out.

[Elscotto1989]

byne wrote...

Elscotto1989 wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

byne wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

byne wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

This is another thing I'm currently trying to figure out, the only answer so far: "Indoctrination Theory"
We can assume the Fleets brought supplies to last for some time in battle (food, bullets, etc) but how it's enough to last until dextro-dna allies like Turians and Quarians starve from not being able to get back to their systems is beyond my current level of ME Universe knowledge. Even if organics rebuilt the Relay system it could take them decades, the only hope lies in cultivating food in nearby planets, or in systems close enough reach via FTL which could take years, but that is better than waiting decades as your comrades die one by one of starvation.

Even if every fleet in the Sol system devoted all their energy to rebuilding the Charon Relay, it wont do much good.

Relays work by having another Relay they can link to.

If you just have one working Relay it'd be like having a train but no railways. That train isnt going to take you anywhere, its just gonna sit around being useless.

Very true, but lets not forget that QEC and some comm bouys still work, it's possible for those in the Sol system/Local Cluster to comminicate with homeworld systems to build enough of a Mass Relay network to travel. But, another hurdle is rebuilding the Citadel or something similar to control this relay network.

Unless I'm much mistaken, the comm buoys relied on the Mass Relays, and QECs are very very rare. I think the Normandy was one of the few ships that had a QEC.

Ah I didn't know comm buoys relayed on Mass Relays (the more you know!). But, during the game its stated that there are a handful of QEC on Earth, I would like to think that survivors of the battle pooled these together to communicate with the rest of the galaxy. Maybe some other ships of the varied fleet have QEC built in, I assume Admiral Hackett's did since you communicate with him often.

wait wait wait...if there are a few on earth and the relays are gone, how do you propose they are to get those to the rest of the galaxy to share them? if they pooled them together they would just be screaming back and for at different parts of earth.  lol  *space magic* strikes again.

Well, one would assume that there arent any QECs linked to other QECs on Earth, that would be a massive waste of money.

QECs are for instant lag-free communication over any number of light-years. QECs on Earth would likely be linked to other important locations in the galaxy, or important ships.

Each QEC is linked only to one other QEC, like how the QEC we had in ME2 only linked us to TIMs base, and nowhere else.

well lets look at the facts presented. we know that each counselor had one on the citadel (now gone) hacket has one to the normandy as does anderson from earth, and there are some on earth no doutbt perhaps linked to other alliance ships. and we know that the dallatross has one. i would mentions tuchanka palaven and thessia but well...you know. pallaven got glassed, tuchanka (they cant even make there own ships) and thessia got glassed as well) and i dont remember off the top of my head did any of the quarian admirals have one? looks like the overall galactic livelihood is up to the salarians.

[Turran]

Just a heads up to everyone on here and agree with this theory.


Please stop trying to force this THEORY down peoples throats.
Stop creating more and more threads saying why it is right, and please stop acting like you are superior because you listened to a video and now 'get it'.


I agree with the theory and I support it, but it does little to no good if you keep creating threads like "Disprove it" "I am right, you are wrong", because it just starts more bickering and kind of makes people hate seeing it and go against any concept of it.


I get it, there are people who liked the endings as they were (Without taking in the theory), there are those who initially didn't like it but looked into the theory and now do. BUT there are also those who have looked into the Theory and do not like it or believe it, accept this and keep discussing in a civil manner the points of your way of thinking, without claiming you are right or superior.


No one likes it when discussing Religion and the Priest just keeps saying "Disprove it, oh wait you can't, you are invalid"

[Tsuarn]

My local gamestore takes ME3 back for a full refund at this moment. (the owner was disapointed with the ending as well )

this unit is gonna give it back just yet. It has still hope!

It will hold the line!!

[sjrskl]

did anyone notice the kid is on a completely different building when you see him running towards the vent ? with that i mean when you first see the kid he is on some building with a garden in front of the alliance compound but when you see him again he is on another side of the alliance compound he somehow teleported before getting blown up twice. also he is the only kid in the ME universe (aside from that girl later in the refugee camp)

[byne]

Turran wrote...

Just a heads up to everyone on here and agree with this theory.


Please stop trying to force this THEORY down peoples throats.
Stop creating more and more threads saying why it is right, and please stop acting like you are superior because you listened to a video and now 'get it'.


I agree with the theory and I support it, but it does little to no good if you keep creating threads like "Disprove it" "I am right, you are wrong", because it just starts more bickering and kind of makes people hate seeing it and go against any concept of it.


I get it, there are people who liked the endings as they were (Without taking in the theory), there are those who initially didn't like it but looked into the theory and now do. BUT there are also those who have looked into the Theory and do not like it or believe it, accept this and keep discussing in a civil manner the points of your way of thinking, without claiming you are right or superior.


No one likes it when discussing Religion and the Priest just keeps saying "Disprove it, oh wait you can't, you are invalid"

I would have to agree with this. We already have a near 700 page thread for Indoctrination Theory, there is no need to make more, or to spread it into other threads that arent talking about it.

[ZyionPrime]

sunnie7699 wrote...

Tailen wrote...

ZyionPrime wrote...

My mind instantly went to Sigmund Freud's structural model of the human psyche. Each of the characters shown in the flashes would represent a part of the psyche: Joker represents the Id, which is the part that focus's on a person's innate desires (possibly renegade decisions); Liara represent the Super-Ego, the part of the psyche that focuses on conditional beliefs (possibly paragon decisions); andAnderson represent the Ego, which is the part that mediates between the Id and Super-Ego. Taking that into consideration, the scene with TIM at the end makes more sense as it is your Ego that is loosing the fight to indoctrination (meaning that you are effectively loosing control of your own decisions).

You also see all of them sort of nodding in a half smile. Which can be taken as one of two ways. Either as a "farewell" expression given to you to show your complete loss of control to the Reapers. Or as a "good job" expression showing that you were able to overcome the Reapers and be able to maintain control over yourself. Now keep in mind im basing this assumption on knowledge I got from psychology class several years ago and only remember brief descriptions of Freud's structural model of the human psyche. So I could be right or wrong in this instance. But none the less, the fact that you see flashes those same three characters for every ending is just odd.

Interesting insight.  While some might accuse you of grasping at straws here, I find the opposite.  I can only imagine that if BioWare were going the route of a battle within Shepard's mind, doing their homework on the human psyche would have been the first thing on their list.  The kinds of clues we're finding throughout the ending absolutely reek of exactly that.

Manifestations of his personality abound...

ZyionPrime wrote...

As for the scene with Joker trying to escape the energy wave created by your decision on the Citadel; I think people are trying to take this too litterally and need to take it in forms of symbols that have meaning. Rather then trying to figure out the plot holes that led to Joker fleeing the battle at the end, look at what is happening. You see Joker trying desperately to escape the massive energy wave produced by the Citadel. Taking into account what I said earlier about Joker representing your innate desires, you can start to peice together what the scene means. Your innate desires are trying to escape from the decision you made on the Citadel. This can easily represents the consequences that follow if you let your desires take hold of you. But then again, if that is true why is it shown for destroying the Reapers? I think the reason is simple, this is the Reapers saying that resistance was futile. In the indoctrinated endings its the Reapers saying that escape from our control was impossible to begin with. In the ending where you refuse the Reapers control, it is the Reapers giving the final FU to Shepard effectively saying, "no matter what you do, you will loose."

There is something else that I've noticed about that scene right when the Normandy starts falling aparent. In both the control and synthesis endings, the scene cuts out right before you see the Normandy explode. In the destruction ending, you actually see the explosion of the Normandy. This could coincide with my theory as the Reapers' final FU to Shepard as it feels more violent and destructive.

 

This is very interesting.  It's an extremely, extremely subtle difference -- but you're absolutely right.  In the "Destroy" ending, you see an instant more of the Normandy's destruction.

Why would they have any reason to cut that scene any different?  Again, where someone else would accuse you of reaching, I join you in appreciating BioWare's attention to the symbolic details.  I see beauty where others see coincidence.

Whoa, I watched all three endings and I don't know if it's just me but for destroy you see the explosion, for control you see just the start of the explosion, and for synthesise you don't see the explosion at all

It isn't you, I also see it as well. It was just so late at night when I made my orriginal post that fatigue made me fail to notice the slight difference when reviewing the video.

Modifié par ZyionPrime, 18 mars 2012 - 11:02 .

[VinceMayCry]

First post here, I almost read everything since page 1 (almost, I'm not a robot ) and considering everything I saw in the end, the indoctrination/hallucination theory, even if it was not intended by bioware, makes so much more sense that the pseudo-ending (no "s") we were given. Just a little point I'm wondering about : when my brother finished the game, I was watching which ending COLOR he was going to pick (he tried all of them to see the "differences") and I'm pretty sure I saw the (so much hated) stargodchild smiling (quite deviously) when it appeared behind my brother's Shep as he picked the "control" option. Has anyone noticed that as well ? (for info, my brother was around 6000 + war assets, including MP galactic readiness, of course). Maybe it was just my imagination, but well...

Apart from that, considering the lack of response from bioware, I'm pretty sure that what we got will be the definitive ending, they tried to made a pseudo-intellectual-philosophical-metaphysical finale and it just fell flat because most of the fans expected a REAL ending taking their choices in consideration (including myself). They're most likely just going to release their planned DLCs and say vague things like "we're listening, don't worry, feedback is very important" until everything cools down and people grow tired of struggling against the (non-existent and crappy) end of the game. I'm still tempted to try and hold the line, as I would like to think that bioware is actually listening and give Mass Effect the ending it really deserves, an epic finale worthy of 100+ hours of gameplay on the entire trilogy. Not a badly written copy-paste of the worst moments of "2001 a space odyssey" and "matrix revolutions"...
PS : forgive my english, I haven't practiced in a long while and may be a bit rusty

Modifié par VinceMayCry, 18 mars 2012 - 11:03 .

[MalevoIence]

 So wait.... are you saying the true answer is "synthesis" and paragon and renegade options are just indoctrination to keep you from choosing this option?

[Rifneno]

Crusina wrote...

So I've heard that the kid in the dream sequences screams come back here if you start moving in the opposite direction?

Any videos or evidence supporting that? I don't have a save near it so...

No, it doesn't. Whenever I try that, Shepard just looks around confused and then goes back in the right direction.

byne wrote...

A whole lot of what Shep says in the end makes no sense.

My Shep has spent all 3 games defending the rights of synthetics whenever she could, never agreeing that synthetics are inherently dangerous, then godchild tells me that if I take destroy, my descendants will eventually create more synthetics, who will turn on their creators, and she goes "Yeah... maybe..."

I dont know who that is, but it cant be my Shep. That goes against one of her core principles.

Q. F. T.

byne wrote...

You know who really deserved more screen time?

Morinth.

You literally never see her until the very end, right after you use the Cain to take down the Reaper cannon.

She just appears as a Banshee named Morinth.

No one even comments on it.

That was epic. She so deserves that fate. It's a shame there's no way to give it to her without screwing over Samara in ME2.

[mmmu]

Personally I didn't disapprove of the endings, because I enjoy room for interpretation. Indoctrination theory is looking pretty valid to me, so many points are obviously there. This could be good. I remember people speculating years back whether Shepard could be indoctrinated in ME3 and how it could be implemented.
Looks valid alright.

[VinceMayCry]

MalevoIence wrote...

 So wait.... are you saying the true answer is "synthesis" and paragon and renegade options are just indoctrination to keep you from choosing this option?

Actually what I'm saying is, it would just fit the theory where control = the worst possible choice, A.K.A falling to the indoctrination of the reapers and serving their purpose, since it seems to fit the midget's purpose. In my opinion, the starchild is definitely a projection of the Harbinger trying to indoctrinate Shepard by using his/her feeling of guilt to have left the earth at the beginning of the game. Synthesis would still be the acceptance of becoming a reaper and the "good" choice is destroy. Since Anderson is the one seen destroying the conduit in Shep's visions, and it is the only way to see a "surviving" Shep. Sorry if I don't make myself clear enough, as I said my english is a bit rusty due to the lack of practice.

[Adoree]

I've followed this thread and I agree the entire thing seems too much to be coincidental... and I'm not sure if anyone
has mentioned this, but another supportive fact for the theory doesnt come from the game but from real life.

People that think bioware simply screwed up, or they wouldnt pull a stunt like this, I'd just like to remind of that:

This is the same company that made you think you are a talented young Jedi that miraculously could learn Master techniques in a couple of weeks, only to bite you in the butt close to the end and tell you you are the Former Sith Lord Darth Revan.... if you didnt go "WTF?!!!!!!!!" at that... so yeah I'd expect that kind of stunt from Bioware.

To make it the official ending of the game until a DLC gives you the rest is at the same time genius and horrible.

It has a lot more impact with all the Rage going on, and all the theories... but will it have more impact ingame when we play it after we sort of suspect it to not be real now? wouldnt it have been more shocking to expect "oh endgame now yeah" only then to continue playing instantly going wtf? not the end ?

[Chyliss]

Just watched all the endings again. The citadel isn't destroyed in the Contol (blue) ending. You can see the arms closing up fully but it doesn't show it being destroyed. The relays aren't destroyed either.

Sorry if this has already been noted somewhere.

[RADIUMEYEZ]

Adoree wrote...

I've followed this thread and I agree the entire thing seems too much to be coincidental... and I'm not sure if anyone
has mentioned this, but another supportive fact for the theory doesnt come from the game but from real life.

People that think bioware simply screwed up, or they wouldnt pull a stunt like this, I'd just like to remind of that:

This is the same company that made you think you are a talented young Jedi that miraculously could learn Master techniques in a couple of weeks, only to bite you in the butt close to the end and tell you you are the Former Sith Lord Darth Revan.... if you didnt go "WTF?!!!!!!!!" at that... so yeah I'd expect that kind of stunt from Bioware.

To make it the official ending of the game until a DLC gives you the rest is at the same time genius and horrible.

It has a lot more impact with all the Rage going on, and all the theories... but will it have more impact ingame when we play it after we sort of suspect it to not be real now? wouldnt it have been more shocking to expect "oh endgame now yeah" only then to continue playing instantly going wtf? not the end ?

Knights of the Old Republic was my first Bioware game and that story line they had in that game with the twist of you being Darth Revan is exactly why I have loved Bioware over the years. I am holding on to hope that this whole thing is part of some plan they have come up with.

[MadRabbit999]

Rob Psyence wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

I do not know if this is relevant or not to the theory of the eyes, but if any of you has the Mass Effect art book, at page 86, where they explain about the illusive man design, this comes up:

"A lot of Attention was paid to the implants in his eyes, the intent being to give him a subtly inhuman look"

So to me, this seems purely a design choice... so perhaps all the theories about the eyes could be coincidences?

 
I saw that I was starting to think it was a coincidence also until I saw their ideas for him in 3. Originally they planned a boss fight with him as transformed into a husk/partly a husk. Which then made me think that perhaps is another clue for the indoctorination theory because we got no TIM boss fight, just a psychological one. In addition to that they made him look like saren so I think "implant" means "reaper implant"

But if the Illusive man had been indoctrinated from very far back... why would he bother resurrecting Shep?

I mean Reapers controlling the Collevtors kill Shep... then Illusive man controlled by reapers resurrect Shep?

[RADIUMEYEZ]

Chyliss wrote...

Just watched all the endings again. The citadel isn't destroyed in the Contol (blue) ending. You can see the arms closing up fully but it doesn't show it being destroyed. The relays aren't destroyed either.

Sorry if this has already been noted somewhere.

I just watched it again on youtube and you are correct in the blue ending the Citadel is not destroyed. However the relays are destroyed, as soon as the relay shoots off the blue beam it begins to explode.

[MadRabbit999]

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

Chyliss wrote...

Just watched all the endings again. The citadel isn't destroyed in the Contol (blue) ending. You can see the arms closing up fully but it doesn't show it being destroyed. The relays aren't destroyed either.

Sorry if this has already been noted somewhere.

I just watched it again on youtube and you are correct in the blue ending the Citadel is not destroyed. However the relays are destroyed, as soon as the relay shoots off the blue beam it begins to explode.

But the Citadel is also a relay.. that is a bit contradictory of them.

[Chyliss]

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

I just watched it again on youtube and you are correct in the blue ending the Citadel is not destroyed. However the relays are destroyed, as soon as the relay shoots off the blue beam it begins to explode.

It didn't look like the relays were destroyed to me, not like they were in the other endings with pieces flying. I'll watch it again.

[MDT1]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

Chyliss wrote...

Just watched all the endings again. The citadel isn't destroyed in the Contol (blue) ending. You can see the arms closing up fully but it doesn't show it being destroyed. The relays aren't destroyed either.

Sorry if this has already been noted somewhere.

I just watched it again on youtube and you are correct in the blue ending the Citadel is not destroyed. However the relays are destroyed, as soon as the relay shoots off the blue beam it begins to explode.

But the Citadel is also a relay.. that is a bit contradictory of them.

Being contradictory is somehow the bottom line of ME3's ending.

[monrapias]

Chyliss wrote...

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

I just watched it again on youtube and you are correct in the blue ending the Citadel is not destroyed. However the relays are destroyed, as soon as the relay shoots off the blue beam it begins to explode.

It didn't look like the relays were destroyed to me, not like they were in the other endings with pieces flying. I'll watch it again.

The citadel doesn't get destroyed, but the relays do.

[MalevoIence]

VinceMayCry wrote...

MalevoIence wrote...

 So wait.... are you saying the true answer is "synthesis" and paragon and renegade options are just indoctrination to keep you from choosing this option?

Actually what I'm saying is, it would just fit the theory where control = the worst possible choice, A.K.A falling to the indoctrination of the reapers and serving their purpose, since it seems to fit the midget's purpose. In my opinion, the starchild is definitely a projection of the Harbinger trying to indoctrinate Shepard by using his/her feeling of guilt to have left the earth at the beginning of the game. Synthesis would still be the acceptance of becoming a reaper and the "good" choice is destroy. Since Anderson is the one seen destroying the conduit in Shep's visions, and it is the only way to see a "surviving" Shep. Sorry if I don't make myself clear enough, as I said my english is a bit rusty due to the lack of practice.

Sorry buddy, I was talking to Byne's intitial post that started this thread.  Saw a comparison between the starchild's beam, and the beam you slow mo'ed to looking exactly similarly framed aswell as debris around that resembled things in that room.  If that's the case, the only real choice is the beam, while both Paragon and Renegade choices have you walking towards your death.

[Beanreaper]

Well if it was a dream Shep needs to get educated on the locations of Relays.

http://i39.tinypic.com/1zzm03l.png
http://fc07.devianta...art-d3a34qx.png