57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Priss Blackburne]

Rifneno wrote...

S Atomeha wrote...

 when you assault the cerberus base the prothean vi says  "you are here to recover me from indoctrinated forces?" but when you ask him about the catalyst he says "All security protocols have been overriden.  I will comply"

It also says that it's been programmed not to reveal the catalyst until the crucible is complete.  I'd imagine that's why it's mentioning security protocols have been hacked.

Has it been mentioned that it's possible that while Hacking the VI the Illusive man could have altered it's data for what the Catalyst is?

He allready knew Shepard would be coming and set a trap for him. So it makes sense he would be prepared for if Shepard survived.

Modifié par Priss Blackburne, 18 mars 2012 - 02:40 .

[AdmiralsJack]

Priss Blackburne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

S Atomeha wrote...

 when you assault the cerberus base the prothean vi says  "you are here to recover me from indoctrinated forces?" but when you ask him about the catalyst he says "All security protocols have been overriden.  I will comply"

It also says that it's been programmed not to reveal the catalyst until the crucible is complete.  I'd imagine that's why it's mentioning security protocols have been hacked.

Has it been mentioned that it's possible that while Hacking the VI the Illusive man could have altered it's data for what the Catalyst is?

He allready knew Shepard would be coming and set a trap for him. So it makes sense he would be prepared for if Shepard survived.

then there is the quetion what is the catalyst?

[Tairram]

ME2Pilot wrote...

Blackan8 wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

Note: forgive me for the caps I originally posted this in the comments section of a blog so there was no bold and I used caps for emphasis.
Ok people I got an account just to do this, specifically to not remain annonymous. I am going to strip away a lot of the imagery in the endings and I am going to attack this issue at its CORE. That core is the concept of indoctorination as it is concerned in the mass effect universe. I intend to explain how this concept pertains to what happens in the end.

First of all I dislike using the term "dream" or "hallucination" for the mere fact that to me both of these terms make it sound as if it just happened as a result of circumstance. Whereas, indoctorination implies that some outside force or some thing is directly and intentionally attempting to subvert and influence a victim's mind through mental suggestion. Thus, calling it a hallucination or a dream is a fallacy.

The reapers are hundreds of thousands of years old and have become masters of influencing the minds of organic, sapient beings. They can bend your mind from the shroud of darkness over vast spaces. When Paul Grayson gets reaper tech implanted into him by cerberus in the books, he is a red sand addict...he chose to get off the stuff for gillian, so he was extremely difficult to be indoctorinated by sheer will. What does cerberus and TIM do? they inject concentrated red sand into Grayson, it weakens his mind and his resolve and soon, the reapers gain full control of him. Getting to my main point...

When Shepard is running toward the conduit beam, dodging laser after laser blasted upon him by Harbinger, Harbinger is becoming desperate, Shepard is bound and determined to destroy them and then a laser hits at his feet causing an explosion of splash damage, Shepard is knocked unconscious and his body is beaten and bloody. What does that state do? It makes him MORE susceptible to being influenced. Harbinger sees this chance and assumes control, trying its utmost best to bend Shepard to Indoctorinate him.

Revisiting Paul Grayson once again there is a scene in the book in which in order to protect Gillian and not lead Cerberus to her he sets his shuttle to go in the opposite direction. Ah but you see, that was only a trick and it is stated as such in the book. The reaper controlling him made Grayson THINK that he set the coordinates away from Gillian's location and instead makes him set the coordinates TOWARD her position and he doesnt realize it until it is too late. This undeniably prooves that once a reaper indoctorinates you it can make you think and see anything it wants. It will use anything at its disposal to maintain control.

So once again we find ourselves back at Shepard. From the beginning of the game the little boy is a seed planted not only in Shepard's mind but into the minds of the players. You see him get killed and it tugs at your heart strings, it makes you feel remorse, then throughout the game there are the dreams, only you and Shepard knows what he looks like. But then at the end all of the sudden this catalyst ai not only knows of the boy but also knows his form? This does not seem peculiar to you?

That points to something digging into your mind and you must realize that the reapers, Harbinger will use deception and deceit if that means bending you to its will. The boy in the beginning could be real but that doesn't stop Harbinger from using his memory as a tool. This boys memory causes Shepard to want to trust him so there is no argument at all.

Its not like the conversation with the Illusive man where you can argue as the tendrils of inky shadow tear at your consciousness. The illusive man tries to convince you to control the reapers but you see that is irrelevant because TIM is already being controlled and thus Harbinger KNOWS what the Crucible does.

Is it so farfetched to believe that Harbinger would lie and distort the truth of the crucible's true functionality in order to ensure its survival because moments ago Shepard and the player was bent on its destruction?
Control over the reapers is a lie. Perhaps the method in which to choose "control" is really an emergency abort. To choose "destroy" is perhaps a contengency to ensure it cannot be stopped. Perhaps Synthesis is to do neither and to THROW yourself at the mercy of the cosmos.

Control is not the reapers ideal choice because it would "Delay the inevitible." But eventually Harbinger will wear down your mind and Indoctorinate you fully. But to me there is something more likely at the core of these decisions and that is the "CONTROL" of Shepard's mind.

To choose "control" is to choose the complete submission to the reaper's control, for his mind to be consumed just as the energy CONSUMES his body. To choose Synthesis is to choose your mind to become merged and soon be CONSUMED by the reaper's programming. To choose "destroy" is to choose free will, to break the control and to FIGHT Indoctorination.

TIM is "already under our control." And yet what does the image show? TIM choosing control...he CHOSE his own submission and is bathed in the color of Paragon, this is the choice you are compelled to choose Shepard...Player, for THREE games you attributed blue to good, to right. "You wish to destroy us." What does it show Anderson doing? Anderson choosing to break control as he is bathed in the color of Renegade...this is the choice you are compelled to not choose Shepard...Player for THREE games you attributed red to bad, to wrong.
TIM represents the control the reapers have over organics. Anderson represents the conviction to break control. TIM has been the antagonist for the entire game and showed fear of the reapers .

WHY would you choose to side with him and why is he paragon now? Anderson has heart and conviction, he cares for Shepard and he cares for Humanity, he has been in the trenches fighting the reapers the entire game. Why would you not side with him and why is he now renegade all of the sudden?

Ladies and gentlemen of the ME community I show to you that the desperate Harbinger is the worst evil of them all. Harbinger is the evil of deception, Harbinger is the embodiment of dominance and has been for the entire series. Is it so foolish to think that it wouldn't take advantage of a weakened mind? Hackett comes on the com and says "its not working, something is wrong." Shepard reaches up to the console but collapses before he can touch it. The battle rages inside of Shepard's mind. WAKE UP SHEPARD. Shepard lays in the rubble as the gargantuan Harbinger looms over its would be destoyer, boring into his mind, twisting his reality and twisting OUR reality.

"Shepard, I am your salvation through destruction." It has been hammered into us battle after battle game after game. But all of the sudden Harbinger, who knows how the crucible really works through the indoctorinated TIM's interference tells us control is the way to go. To me this is a LIE, it is not the control of the reapers, it is the control of you. To choose to destoy is to "Destroy all synthetics"? HAH. How do we know it doesn't just destroy you, Harbinger. "The peace won't last, your children will make synthetics and the cycle continues." Sounds like trash talk to me.

I refuse to be indoctorinated, you will not influence my decision Harbinger. Even if it did destroy the geth after I previously saved them. I will bring your end, you will no longer kill thousands of civilizations over many millenia. This is MY "Salvation through destruction" and thus the Indoctorination is broken, Harbinger's hold IS BROKEN. Shepard wakes up and takes a breath. The screen falls to black. There IS Unfinished business.

I like what I'm hearing from this o:

HELL YES! I could NOT have said this better myself!

WE'RE WITH YOU SHEPARD!

BREAK FREE! 

HOLD THE LINE!

I agree with that.. I will say again... I hope we have a answer quick. This is killing me TT. I have hope because this is  a opportunity for bioware show how a real indocrination work (or who knows what are they thinking) and elevate this game for something beyond and with a immersion never  saw in the video games. Look this repercussion is phenomenal. Obviously  is phenomenal if there is a plan about all this and a great ending waiting for us ,where the choices really matters. XD

Hold the line

I dont believe in  endings

Modifié par Tairram, 18 mars 2012 - 02:43 .

[AdmiralsJack]

Tairram wrote...

ME2Pilot wrote...

Blackan8 wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

Note: forgive me for the caps I originally posted this in the comments section of a blog so there was no bold and I used caps for emphasis.
Ok people I got an account just to do this, specifically to not remain annonymous. I am going to strip away a lot of the imagery in the endings and I am going to attack this issue at its CORE. That core is the concept of indoctorination as it is concerned in the mass effect universe. I intend to explain how this concept pertains to what happens in the end.

First of all I dislike using the term "dream" or "hallucination" for the mere fact that to me both of these terms make it sound as if it just happened as a result of circumstance. Whereas, indoctorination implies that some outside force or some thing is directly and intentionally attempting to subvert and influence a victim's mind through mental suggestion. Thus, calling it a hallucination or a dream is a fallacy.

The reapers are hundreds of thousands of years old and have become masters of influencing the minds of organic, sapient beings. They can bend your mind from the shroud of darkness over vast spaces. When Paul Grayson gets reaper tech implanted into him by cerberus in the books, he is a red sand addict...he chose to get off the stuff for gillian, so he was extremely difficult to be indoctorinated by sheer will. What does cerberus and TIM do? they inject concentrated red sand into Grayson, it weakens his mind and his resolve and soon, the reapers gain full control of him. Getting to my main point...

When Shepard is running toward the conduit beam, dodging laser after laser blasted upon him by Harbinger, Harbinger is becoming desperate, Shepard is bound and determined to destroy them and then a laser hits at his feet causing an explosion of splash damage, Shepard is knocked unconscious and his body is beaten and bloody. What does that state do? It makes him MORE susceptible to being influenced. Harbinger sees this chance and assumes control, trying its utmost best to bend Shepard to Indoctorinate him.

Revisiting Paul Grayson once again there is a scene in the book in which in order to protect Gillian and not lead Cerberus to her he sets his shuttle to go in the opposite direction. Ah but you see, that was only a trick and it is stated as such in the book. The reaper controlling him made Grayson THINK that he set the coordinates away from Gillian's location and instead makes him set the coordinates TOWARD her position and he doesnt realize it until it is too late. This undeniably prooves that once a reaper indoctorinates you it can make you think and see anything it wants. It will use anything at its disposal to maintain control.

So once again we find ourselves back at Shepard. From the beginning of the game the little boy is a seed planted not only in Shepard's mind but into the minds of the players. You see him get killed and it tugs at your heart strings, it makes you feel remorse, then throughout the game there are the dreams, only you and Shepard knows what he looks like. But then at the end all of the sudden this catalyst ai not only knows of the boy but also knows his form? This does not seem peculiar to you?

That points to something digging into your mind and you must realize that the reapers, Harbinger will use deception and deceit if that means bending you to its will. The boy in the beginning could be real but that doesn't stop Harbinger from using his memory as a tool. This boys memory causes Shepard to want to trust him so there is no argument at all.

Its not like the conversation with the Illusive man where you can argue as the tendrils of inky shadow tear at your consciousness. The illusive man tries to convince you to control the reapers but you see that is irrelevant because TIM is already being controlled and thus Harbinger KNOWS what the Crucible does.

Is it so farfetched to believe that Harbinger would lie and distort the truth of the crucible's true functionality in order to ensure its survival because moments ago Shepard and the player was bent on its destruction?
Control over the reapers is a lie. Perhaps the method in which to choose "control" is really an emergency abort. To choose "destroy" is perhaps a contengency to ensure it cannot be stopped. Perhaps Synthesis is to do neither and to THROW yourself at the mercy of the cosmos.

Control is not the reapers ideal choice because it would "Delay the inevitible." But eventually Harbinger will wear down your mind and Indoctorinate you fully. But to me there is something more likely at the core of these decisions and that is the "CONTROL" of Shepard's mind.

To choose "control" is to choose the complete submission to the reaper's control, for his mind to be consumed just as the energy CONSUMES his body. To choose Synthesis is to choose your mind to become merged and soon be CONSUMED by the reaper's programming. To choose "destroy" is to choose free will, to break the control and to FIGHT Indoctorination.

TIM is "already under our control." And yet what does the image show? TIM choosing control...he CHOSE his own submission and is bathed in the color of Paragon, this is the choice you are compelled to choose Shepard...Player, for THREE games you attributed blue to good, to right. "You wish to destroy us." What does it show Anderson doing? Anderson choosing to break control as he is bathed in the color of Renegade...this is the choice you are compelled to not choose Shepard...Player for THREE games you attributed red to bad, to wrong.
TIM represents the control the reapers have over organics. Anderson represents the conviction to break control. TIM has been the antagonist for the entire game and showed fear of the reapers .

WHY would you choose to side with him and why is he paragon now? Anderson has heart and conviction, he cares for Shepard and he cares for Humanity, he has been in the trenches fighting the reapers the entire game. Why would you not side with him and why is he now renegade all of the sudden?

Ladies and gentlemen of the ME community I show to you that the desperate Harbinger is the worst evil of them all. Harbinger is the evil of deception, Harbinger is the embodiment of dominance and has been for the entire series. Is it so foolish to think that it wouldn't take advantage of a weakened mind? Hackett comes on the com and says "its not working, something is wrong." Shepard reaches up to the console but collapses before he can touch it. The battle rages inside of Shepard's mind. WAKE UP SHEPARD. Shepard lays in the rubble as the gargantuan Harbinger looms over its would be destoyer, boring into his mind, twisting his reality and twisting OUR reality.

"Shepard, I am your salvation through destruction." It has been hammered into us battle after battle game after game. But all of the sudden Harbinger, who knows how the crucible really works through the indoctorinated TIM's interference tells us control is the way to go. To me this is a LIE, it is not the control of the reapers, it is the control of you. To choose to destoy is to "Destroy all synthetics"? HAH. How do we know it doesn't just destroy you, Harbinger. "The peace won't last, your children will make synthetics and the cycle continues." Sounds like trash talk to me.

I refuse to be indoctorinated, you will not influence my decision Harbinger. Even if it did destroy the geth after I previously saved them. I will bring your end, you will no longer kill thousands of civilizations over many millenia. This is MY "Salvation through destruction" and thus the Indoctorination is broken, Harbinger's hold IS BROKEN. Shepard wakes up and takes a breath. The screen falls to black. There IS Unfinished business.

I like what I'm hearing from this o:

HELL YES! I could NOT have said this better myself!

WE'RE WITH YOU SHEPARD!

BREAK FREE! 

HOLD THE LINE!

I agree with that.. I will say again... I hope we have a answer quick. This is killing me TT. I have hope because this is  a opportunity for bioware show how a real indocrination work (or who knows what are they thinking) and elevate this game for something beyond and with a immersion never  saw in the video games. Look this repercussion is phenomenal. Obviously  is phenomenal if there is a plan about all this and a great ending waiting for us ,where the choices really matters. XD

Hold the line

I dont believe in  endings

i hope they tell us soon every day without an answer makes it harder to hold the line but i will not believe in space magic...never

[Kanon777]

I strongly sugest everyone here post on the feed back thread, even if it wasnt intended this is a great way to give more content AND use the assets they already worked for, any other alternative involves removing content/retcon of the entire last part of the game

[Tr0n01d]

Thanks to the German Asari support the situation in France has been contained.
those biotics skills are really something !
We are evacuating our wounded right now but because of the huge casualties I'm asking for more reinforcements.

I've seen a destroyer reaper approaching from the south, where's the Quarian fleet when you need it ?

A squad of Brutes are making a full offensive from the east, requesting Krogan support !

By the spirits, I WILL HOLD THE LINE !

VICTORY OR NOTHING !

[AdmiralsJack]

Tr0n01d wrote...


Thanks to the German Asari support the situation in France has been contained.
those biotics skills are really something !
We are evacuating our wounded right now but because of the huge casualties I'm asking for more reinforcements.

I've seen a destroyer reaper approaching from the south, where's the Quarian fleet when you need it ?

A squad of Brutes are making a full offensive from the east, requesting Krogan support !

By the spirits, I WILL HOLD THE LINE !

VICTORY OR NOTHING !

you are welcome hold the line against space kid and his space magic

[Dwailing]

Tr0n01d wrote...


Thanks to the German Asari support the situation in France has been contained.
those biotics skills are really something !
We are evacuating our wounded right now but because of the huge casualties I'm asking for more reinforcements.

I've seen a destroyer reaper approaching from the south, where's the Quarian fleet when you need it ?

A squad of Brutes are making a full offensive from the east, requesting Krogan support !

By the spirits, I WILL HOLD THE LINE !

VICTORY OR NOTHING !

I can't bring Krogan or Quarian support, but some American Turian support can't hurt.  And I think I might be able to get Garrus Vakarian to come with me.  If he's not callibrating that is. <_<  Hold the Line!

[Adoree]

Pathero wrote...

I've taken that the colour swap on the options was a kind of meta game on the player. The player is ocnditioned to choose blue for paragon, red for renegade.

Blue is best
Blue is best
Blue is best

All through the game. Through all the games. Then we get to the end and they flip the colours. I bet there are some people who will pick control because it is blue and for no other reason.

I literally sat there for 10 minutes starring at the choices going "... damnit this cant be it, I dont want to die, I dont want anyone to die, but are the reapers right ? " Its not the first time humanity was supposed to be united in one entity in a game or series... but in the end i took heart said goddamn you all and went to blow the damn thing up! And I was SO confused with what happened after but then she took a breath as if waking up and i was like YAY!"

And yeah you are right the colors confused me a lot... I was like why red?

It did feel a lot like the dreams she had before but it wasnt until I read this thread that I figured "damn straight it must be indoctrination Shepard fought" and now I only hope i made the right choice while bioware lets me sit on the coals!

[MegumiAzusa]

I did some better pictures for the eyes, should be really clear then:
IM
Control
Synthesis

[AdmiralsJack]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I did some better pictures for the eyes, should be really clear then:
IM
Control
Synthesis

they look the same in my opinion...yay for indoctrination theory

hold the line!

[Golferguy758]

Slightly off topic. i was looking at my favorite pages bar at the top of chrome. I look like a conspiracy theorist. Me3 endings is indoctrination youtube, was the ending a hallucination?, Indoctrination theory, The endings explained, so on so forth.

[Byakuren2009]

I always supported the endoctrination theory

[MDT1]

simfamSP wrote...

AdmiralsJack wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I did some better pictures for the eyes, should be really clear then:
IM
Control
Synthesis

they look the same in my opinion...yay for indoctrination theory

hold the line!

The Illusive man has always had those strange eyes, how long has he been indocrtinated then?

According to comics first contact war, same time as saren I think.

Modifié par MDT1, 18 mars 2012 - 03:23 .

[AdmiralsJack]

simfamSP wrote...

AdmiralsJack wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I did some better pictures for the eyes, should be really clear then:
IM
Control
Synthesis

they look the same in my opinion...yay for indoctrination theory

hold the line!

The Illusive man has always had those strange eyes, how long has he been indocrtinated then?

i think it is mentioned in one of the books that he was nearly indoctinated during first contact war from a reaper artifact but i dont know which book it was

[dannii2]

Was hoping it was. Caused by the enormous quantity of coffee I'd consumed in order to keep playing. Came here and found it it wasn't...

Oh you mean Sheps hallucination? Oh....

Seriously though, I like this theory.

x

Modifié par dannii2, 18 mars 2012 - 03:24 .

[kyg_20X6]

Priss Blackbur

Has it been mentioned that it's possible that while Hacking the VI the Illusive man could have altered it's data for what the Catalyst is?

He allready knew Shepard would be coming and set a trap for him. So it makes sense he would be prepared for if Shepard survived.

I also noticed that he wants you to hear what the VI has to say (that Catalyst is the citadel and TIM is there). Then, once you've heard, Kai Leng shows up and says 'that's enough'. I wonder why TIM was so content to let you know all that and why Kai Leng didn't attack earlier. 

Modifié par kyg_20X6, 18 mars 2012 - 03:29 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Also as the codex says: if the indoctrination is slow the thrall can last for many years.

[MsYutani]

AdmiralsJack wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

S Atomeha wrote...

 when you assault the cerberus base the prothean vi says  "you are here to recover me from indoctrinated forces?" but when you ask him about the catalyst he says "All security protocols have been overriden.  I will comply"

It also says that it's been programmed not to reveal the catalyst until the crucible is complete.  I'd imagine that's why it's mentioning security protocols have been hacked.

Has it been mentioned that it's possible that while Hacking the VI the Illusive man could have altered it's data for what the Catalyst is?

He allready knew Shepard would be coming and set a trap for him. So it makes sense he would be prepared for if Shepard survived.

then there is the quetion what is the catalyst?

Catalyst:
1. Chemistry . a substance that causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected.
2. something that causes activity between two or more persons or forces without itself being affected.
3. a person or thing that precipitates an event or change: "His imprisonment by the government served as the catalyst that helped transform social unrest into revolution"
4. a person whose talk, enthusiasm, or energy causes others to be more friendly, enthusiastic, or energetic.


I was under the impression that Shepard is the Catalyst. If the boy at the end is the Catalyst like it says it is, why doesn't it just get on with it?
Plus, in the definition: "Without itself being affected". You gotta stick to your guns to make this thing work. Don't be swayed.

Just my thoughts on that one.

Modifié par MsYutani, 18 mars 2012 - 03:25 .

[Tairram]

MDT1 wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

AdmiralsJack wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I did some better pictures for the eyes, should be really clear then:
IM
Control
Synthesis

they look the same in my opinion...yay for indoctrination theory

hold the line!

The Illusive man has always had those strange eyes, how long has he been indocrtinated then?

According to comics first contact war, same time as saren I think.

Cool!!The events from me2 become more dark,because illusive men indocrinated revive shepard for a dark purpose. Imagine all our acts was orchestrated for a reaper purpose . God damn u TIm

[AdmiralsJack]

MsYutani wrote...

AdmiralsJack wrote...

Priss Blackburne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

S Atomeha wrote...

 when you assault the cerberus base the prothean vi says  "you are here to recover me from indoctrinated forces?" but when you ask him about the catalyst he says "All security protocols have been overriden.  I will comply"

It also says that it's been programmed not to reveal the catalyst until the crucible is complete.  I'd imagine that's why it's mentioning security protocols have been hacked.

Has it been mentioned that it's possible that while Hacking the VI the Illusive man could have altered it's data for what the Catalyst is?

He allready knew Shepard would be coming and set a trap for him. So it makes sense he would be prepared for if Shepard survived.

then there is the quetion what is the catalyst?

Catalyst:
1. Chemistry . a substance that causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected.
2. something that causes activity between two or more persons or forces without itself being affected.
3. a person or thing that precipitates an event or change: "His imprisonment by the government served as the catalyst that helped transform social unrest into revolution"
4. a person whose talk, enthusiasm, or energy causes others to be more friendly, enthusiastic, or energetic.


I was under the impression that Shepard is the Catalyst. If the boy at the end is the Catalyst like it says it is, why doesn't it just get on with it?
Plus, in the definition: "Without itself being affected". You gotta stick to your guns to make this thing work. Don't be swayed.

Just my thoughts on that one.

I thought about shep being the catalyst too but I'm not sure, maybe it is just the citadel...well everything is better than space child and his

[kyg_20X6]

I wonder if we should be making ourselves more heard to EA, since they decide what BW do/don't do. I mean, we should make sure BioWare know what we want but we should also be making sure EA knows how big this is and pressure them to go through with this.

[AdmiralsJack]

Tairram wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

AdmiralsJack wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I did some better pictures for the eyes, should be really clear then:
IM
Control
Synthesis

they look the same in my opinion...yay for indoctrination theory

hold the line!

The Illusive man has always had those strange eyes, how long has he been indocrtinated then?

According to comics first contact war, same time as saren I think.

Cool!!The events from me2 become more dark,because illusive men indocrinated revive shepard for a dark purpose. Imagine all our acts was orchestrated for a reaper purpose . God damn u TIm

i dont know if he is under reaper control during me2 or if he falls under it between 2&3...i never read Mass Effect: Evolution, just what is said in mass effect wiki...