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[lex0r11]

JTP117 wrote...

Here's how I've noticed the debate between IT believers and non-believers has been going:

IT Believers:
"We think that Shepard was indoctrinated because of the following evidence: The child, the Paragon/renegade avatar choices (Anderson/TIM), Shepard's state of sudden apathy, the black tendrils in the TIM dialogue, the fact that both Anderson and TIM were able to get to the same room as Shepard without him seeing them when there is only one hallway leading to that room, Shepard's eye resembling TIM's when he chooses anything other than the Destroy option, The weird textures at ground zero, the evidence that supports us from prior games and novels including direct quotes that describe the same things happening to other indoctrinated people, etc etc (hundreds of pages of supporting evidence following initial findings and so on)."

Non-believers:
"well.. yeah but......you guys are dumb...... and wrong...... because I said so!"

Somehow I feel that the non-believers aren't compiling much evidence in their favor beyond stubborn denial.

to be fair, there were users who really discussed with us.

[darkcerb]

angry joe gives a good run down of some of the more blatant plot holes, a good watch.

[JTP117]

lex0r11 wrote...

JTP117 wrote...

Here's how I've noticed the debate between IT believers and non-believers has been going:

IT Believers:
"We think that Shepard was indoctrinated because of the following evidence: The child, the Paragon/renegade avatar choices (Anderson/TIM), Shepard's state of sudden apathy, the black tendrils in the TIM dialogue, the fact that both Anderson and TIM were able to get to the same room as Shepard without him seeing them when there is only one hallway leading to that room, Shepard's eye resembling TIM's when he chooses anything other than the Destroy option, The weird textures at ground zero, the evidence that supports us from prior games and novels including direct quotes that describe the same things happening to other indoctrinated people, etc etc (hundreds of pages of supporting evidence following initial findings and so on)."

Non-believers:
"well.. yeah but......you guys are dumb...... and wrong...... because I said so!"

Somehow I feel that the non-believers aren't compiling much evidence in their favor beyond stubborn denial.

to be fair, there were users who really discussed with us.

Barely. True there were some civil people on THIS thread, willing to compare notes but by a wide margin most people who don't believe the theory have zero evidence in their favor, it's even worse in threads outside of bioware's site.

[BlackFox26]

This opened my eyes, to say the least.

[Jere85]

Dunno if you guys got this vid yet, but this is nice

[nighthawk132651]

MsYutani wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

 According to a post on Reddit you get this if you wait a while. I'm afraid it means that what's happening is real. (Please prove me wrong!)

My guess it's fake, if something wents bad it's ALWAYS Critical Mission Failure, nothing else.

It's not a fake image, I got that message when I walked most of the way to the Destroy side but then changed my mind and tried to turn around and go back.

yha not fake got it to like after 30 mins or so.

[SpectreN1]

To me, the indoctrination theory has some huge plot holes. For one, how does Shepard become a legend by having a hallucination or by becoming indoctrinated? Number two, Shepard wakes up in the destroy ending in a lot more rubble then there was around the conduit to the Citadel. As interesting as this theory is, you have to have a much more convoluted logic to interpret the ending as a hallucination or indoctrination. Simple logic is much more reasonable in showing that everything in the game's ending is actually real life and you can use logic to reason out an outcome for the galaxy after the Reaper War. The very reason the ending was vauge, was so the player could interpret it as he or she wanted to becasue of all the variables in the game, Bioware said there are over 1000 possible was to play ME 3.

[dawtree]

 I just had to

[Rawgrim]

SpectreN1 wrote...

To me, the indoctrination theory has some huge plot holes. For one, how does Shepard become a legend by having a hallucination or by becoming indoctrinated? Number two, Shepard wakes up in the destroy ending in a lot more rubble then there was around the conduit to the Citadel. As interesting as this theory is, you have to have a much more convoluted logic to interpret the ending as a hallucination or indoctrination. Simple logic is much more reasonable in showing that everything in the game's ending is actually real life and you can use logic to reason out an outcome for the galaxy after the Reaper War. The very reason the ending was vauge, was so the player could interpret it as he or she wanted to becasue of all the variables in the game, Bioware said there are over 1000 possible was to play ME 3.

Point 1: It could still be all in his head at that point.

Point 2: This is explained clearly in the indoctrination theory. The rubble is in London, where Shep`s body is laying.

[crimsontotem]

SpectreN1 wrote...

To me, the indoctrination theory has some huge plot holes. For one, how does Shepard become a legend by having a hallucination or by becoming indoctrinated? Number two, Shepard wakes up in the destroy ending in a lot more rubble then there was around the conduit to the Citadel. As interesting as this theory is, you have to have a much more convoluted logic to interpret the ending as a hallucination or indoctrination. Simple logic is much more reasonable in showing that everything in the game's ending is actually real life and you can use logic to reason out an outcome for the galaxy after the Reaper War. The very reason the ending was vauge, was so the player could interpret it as he or she wanted to becasue of all the variables in the game, Bioware said there are over 1000 possible was to play ME 3.

1. that Stargazer scene is after the ending, we are speculating whatever he do at the ending, this last moment with that god kid is not an ending where Shepard become a legend.

2. yeah... u gotta realize that game floor design and the CG floor design is kinda different, also to put into more simple logic, Harbinger lazer just swooped the ground, which will be a reasonable answer for the rubbles.

[JTP117]

SpectreN1 wrote...

To me, the indoctrination theory has some huge plot holes. For one, how does Shepard become a legend by having a hallucination or by becoming indoctrinated? Number two, Shepard wakes up in the destroy ending in a lot more rubble then there was around the conduit to the Citadel. As interesting as this theory is, you have to have a much more convoluted logic to interpret the ending as a hallucination or indoctrination. Simple logic is much more reasonable in showing that everything in the game's ending is actually real life and you can use logic to reason out an outcome for the galaxy after the Reaper War. The very reason the ending was vauge, was so the player could interpret it as he or she wanted to becasue of all the variables in the game, Bioware said there are over 1000 possible was to play ME 3.

I see what you mean about the data pad messae, but basically I see that as "mose stuff with shepard on DLC coming soon" and the problem people have with shepard living after the destroy ending is that all the rubble is stone and not metal, suggesting that the entire citadel burned up in atmosphere and he fell into stone rubble and was fine. If his armor said "117" rather than "N7" I'd be more inclined to believe he survived that fall. lol

[darkcerb]

SpectreN1 wrote...

To me, the indoctrination theory has some huge plot holes. For one, how does Shepard become a legend by having a hallucination or by becoming indoctrinated? Number two, Shepard wakes up in the destroy ending in a lot more rubble then there was around the conduit to the Citadel. As interesting as this theory is, you have to have a much more convoluted logic to interpret the ending as a hallucination or indoctrination. Simple logic is much more reasonable in showing that everything in the game's ending is actually real life and you can use logic to reason out an outcome for the galaxy after the Reaper War. The very reason the ending was vauge, was so the player could interpret it as he or she wanted to becasue of all the variables in the game, Bioware said there are over 1000 possible was to play ME 3.

Vague is one thing buddy but plot holes, personal charecter teleportation and flying in the face of how our sheperds have behaved throughout+all our efforts up to that point.

You might think the indoctrination theory is bogus but if you think the endings are perfect as is...well you're easily pleased.

Personally the only evidence I needed for indoctrination was the kid at the begining miraculousy escapeing an exploding building, it helped that anderson TIM and my crew teleported around like a star trek crew.

Even if the ending is gospel and we all have to shut our faces? screw that my sheperd refuses. We'll reverse engineer the crucible to generate the energy we know it can and turn it into a cannon and take our chances, that's my sheperds choice.

[Ghrelt]

"They're feeling threatened and want immediate solutions, not theories." -Shepard, to Admiral Hackett, Mass Effect 3

[JTP117]

Ellythe wrote...

"They're feeling threatened and want immediate solutions, not theories." -Shepard, to Admiral Hackett, Mass Effect 3

Oh dude, that's a burn! That is like a cruel irony shakespearian BURN! Excellent use of direct quote, Ellythe

[rexx1888]

has anyone noticed the time stamps on saves after you finish the final mission, it seems to save before you start the final mission... i was to angry to see if the final mission was replayable but my point is, why save it there if theyr only likely to release dlc that doesn't change the ending, why not just give it a new game + or encourage players to start from the start when dlc is released...

i dunno, just something random i noticed while i was trying to justify the uncharacteristically bad end

[lex0r11]

Ellythe wrote...

"They're feeling threatened and want immediate solutions, not theories." -Shepard, to Admiral Hackett, Mass Effect 3

[Rifneno]

You know, I just realized something. People have said that no one has beaten indoctrination before. I think someone has. The rachni queen. She's trapped by Reaper forces on that planet in ME3, complains about the sour notes and all... then she says in the end the machines cannot control her. And they can't. If you saved the original queen on Noveria, her rachni will be loyal in helping with the crucible. Only if you killed her and there's a cloned queen do they betray allied forces.

[Martukis]

The Thorian minions on Feros also seem to successfully fight indoctrination - it is mentioned in an email. That, and they become awesome soldiers.

[Ghrelt]

JTP117 wrote...

Ellythe wrote...

"They're feeling threatened and want immediate solutions, not theories." -Shepard, to Admiral Hackett, Mass Effect 3

Oh dude, that's a burn! That is like a cruel irony shakespearian BURN! Excellent use of direct quote, Ellythe

Believe it or not I'm playing ME3 on my Xbox while following the thread on my laptop.  I just heard her say that as I was reading.  Seemed perfect for the situation.

[Dwailing]

lex0r11 wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

Let's analyse the meaning behind some of the words we come across, as I believe most of the plots clues will lie behind the name's of key plot components. These are the only things I feel needed to be deliberately hand picked, as they would need to make sense, so they should hold the most truth.

1) Crucible: http://thinkexist.co...aning/crucible/
(n.) A test of the most decisive kind; a severe trial; as, the crucible of affliction.
Also: The word crucible means a trial or test of ones beliefs. We all have gone through crucibles in our lives, usually tests of our moral beliefs.

(With this one, it's safe to assume that it actually flies with our indoctrination theory. This whole thing didn't have a real time effect on the galaxy, it was likely another trial for Shepard to overcome. Most likely so that he may re-affirm his convictions, and not stray from the path he had been set on. Conviction is needed to defeat The Reapers, this is why you only wake up in the destroy ending.)

2) Catalyst: http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/catalyst
(n)One that precipitates a process or event, especially without being involved in or changed by the consequences

(This would pretty much conclude that The Catalyst is not affected when you take any route, He's just there to push you through the process. I would assume that The Reapers aren't affected, either. He is supposedly part of them, after all.)

These are the two main plot devices that aren't properly explained come end game, yet they both have names that make the end game even more suspect toward indoctrination.

very good, give blackmind1 internet points, folks.

may i call you mr. jelly?

+1

Well, it's certainly a better nickname than Big Stupid Jellyfish. 

[Emperor_Ike]

Dwailing wrote:

Well, it's certainly a better nickname than Big Stupid Jellyfish.

Oh I don't know...

"This one was given his name by Commander Shepard himself!"
"He called you a big, stupid jellyfish."
"That matters not. The Commander is known to travel in the company of an Enkindler. This one could hope for no greater boon!"

Modifié par Emperor_Ike, 19 mars 2012 - 02:19 .

[Dwailing]

Emperor_Ike wrote...

Dwailing wrote:

Well, it's certainly a better nickname than Big Stupid Jellyfish. smilie

Oh I don't know...

"This one was given his name by Commander Shepard himself!"
"He called you a big, stupid jellyfish."
"That matters not. The Commander is known to travel in the company of an Enkindler. This one could hope for no greater boon!"

LOL, brilliant!

[jackncoke28]

Emperor_Ike wrote...

Dwailing wrote:

Well, it's certainly a better nickname than Big Stupid Jellyfish.

Oh I don't know...

"This one was given his name by Commander Shepard himself!"
"He called you a big, stupid jellyfish."
"That matters not. The Commander is known to travel in the company of an Enkindler. This one could hope for no greater boon!"

I dont think i laughed as hard through the whole game as i did with the big stupid jelly fish scene lol

[Dwailing]

jackncoke28 wrote...

Emperor_Ike wrote...

Dwailing wrote:

Well, it's certainly a better nickname than Big Stupid Jellyfish.

Oh I don't know...

"This one was given his name by Commander Shepard himself!"
"He called you a big, stupid jellyfish."
"That matters not. The Commander is known to travel in the company of an Enkindler. This one could hope for no greater boon!"

I dont think i laughed as hard through the whole game as i did with the big stupid jelly fish scene lol

It was great how they referenced the line in ME3 wasn't it?  And of course it was really funny in ME1, although I don't have any playthroughs where I used that line since I am a Paragon.

[kewnsty]

list of those that fought the indoctornation
in the end saren. with interupt.
lairas mom the matriarc at the end fought it .
the rachni queen.
those feros colonists
heck even the illusive man did with a near perfect play tho of mass effect 3