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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#17726
Kyp

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TheConstantOne wrote...

I've been following indoc theory for a while and, I must say, I'm a supporter. But has anyone considered the possibility that the room with the Reaper child may *not* be the crucial indoctrination moment? That may be the moment when Shepard is preparing to break free of indoctrination and the Reapers are trying to affect how he breaks free? I mention this because I am not satisfied with indoc theory's current explanation of the synthesis option. That choice isn't addressed much and I think there is more going on with that ending than has been noted so far.

I'm thinking that the true indoctrination moment is the Illusive Man confrontation with Anderson. That is the scene where we clearly see the evidence of "oily shadows" (I know this observation has been hit on several times.) Should Shepard survive this scene and defeat the Illusive Man, he begins to break free of Reaper control. Once Shepard starts to come to his senses, the Reapers make a final, desperate attempt to enslave him. We then move to Reaper Child scene.

If we follow the reasoning I just used, the kid could be a construction of not just the Reapers, but of Shepard as well. There is some support for this in that both the male and fem shep voice are components of the child's voice (again, I know this has been discussed.) The kid would have some knowledge of the Reapers and their purpose seeing as they are also part of the child (if this kid is even telling the truth which is anyone's guess) In order to escape indoctrination, Shepard must defeat the Reaper threat in his mind. Depending on his preparation, there can be more than one option with which he can do this. I'm beginning to think the "destroy" and "control" endings are not so much a choice between indoctrination and freedom, but a choice between what part of Shep is sacrificed to the Reapers in order to wake up.

Choosing "Destroy" leads to Shepard choosing to destroy all that is synthetic about him/herself. This leads to his organic components becoming a carrier for Reaper code and still gives them a "hook" from which to try and manipulate him. Conversely, choosing "Control" leads to Shepard sacrificing the organic essence of himself and thus the Reapers take hold of his synthetic components. The surviving components of Shep remain in the room with the child and are consequently "left behind" to the Reapers. With enough preparation, Shepard's mind can conceive of the third option: Synthesis. Synthesis consumes Shepard's entire being and therefore he can escape the indoctrination with the Reapers obtaining no hold of any kind on him. I can see some evidence for this in that the kid remains trapped in the room while he disappears for the destroy and control endings...perhaps because the Reaper entities inside of the kid escape the room with Shepard in those endings?

I don't know if this has been mentioned anywhere before, but synthesis has always seemed like an anomaly in the indoc theory. I know my spin on things seems different from the mainstream idea I've seen announced but I feel that there may be something to what I'm thinking, especially since Synthesis requires more preparation for Shepard to achieve.

Not a perfect ending explanation but what is anymore? haha Anyway, let me know what you all think, I'm eager for some feedback to this.



I like this alot.  That was bothering me as well, though the synthesis option is still somewhat disturbing in itself for what it purports to do to all life.  But this is a very good counter theory

#17727
jackncoke28

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Kyp wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The fact that god child knew what crucible could do, when it had just been completed for the first time in any cycle, still bothers me.


Well, it was kind of clear that one of the bigger underlying themes was that of evolution.  Of course species evolve - we see this largely through Javik's dialogue about the current species in charge and his thoughts on evolution being the only rule of the cosmos.  But also technological evolution - every species builds on top of what species before it did, who passed it along to them.  

So, to perhaps explain how the AI knew what the Crucible would do, it is possible that the technology - like almost all the other technology in the galaxy - came from the same place that the reapers and AI did.  The successful completion of the crucible was, as the name implies, a test to allow for organics to truly evolve to the point of allowing synthesis with synthetics.  (If the endings stand as they are, then I think that synthesis is supposed to be the right answer, despite Shep waking up in the "perfect" ending that I'm PISSED AS HELL is impossible to get without playing multiplayer)

im pissed about the multiplayer situation too. also i dont believe in synthesis being the best or right answer, especially considering the narrative of the importance of free will, and deversity among species. synthesis seems to fall more in line with reaper ideology of order above chaos. i understand god child expecting technological evolution, i just dont understand it knowing the exact workings of something that was finished a couple of hours before.

#17728
Dwailing

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Legion109 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

 I've been watching some of the romance scenes, and all I can say is, we have people to come back to.  Bioware, please, give us new endings and follow the idea outlined in this thread.

(Although, having watched the video of the Traynor romance, all I can say is; Bioware, nudity is not necessary, but please, she's taking a shower in her bra and panties, in what universe do you do that outside of a certain popular passtime for adults? ;))



The preceeding message has been Krogan approved.

- We don't hold lines in Las Vegas we do lines -

Indoception - the belief it was an Indoctrination in a Hallucination caused by the Indoctrination in the Dreams.


Thanks for the support.  Turians holding the line in Louisville.

#17729
Rifneno

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jackncoke28 wrote...

Kyp wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The fact that god child knew what crucible could do, when it had just been completed for the first time in any cycle, still bothers me.


Well, it was kind of clear that one of the bigger underlying themes was that of evolution.  Of course species evolve - we see this largely through Javik's dialogue about the current species in charge and his thoughts on evolution being the only rule of the cosmos.  But also technological evolution - every species builds on top of what species before it did, who passed it along to them.  

So, to perhaps explain how the AI knew what the Crucible would do, it is possible that the technology - like almost all the other technology in the galaxy - came from the same place that the reapers and AI did.  The successful completion of the crucible was, as the name implies, a test to allow for organics to truly evolve to the point of allowing synthesis with synthetics.  (If the endings stand as they are, then I think that synthesis is supposed to be the right answer, despite Shep waking up in the "perfect" ending that I'm PISSED AS HELL is impossible to get without playing multiplayer)

im pissed about the multiplayer situation too. also i dont believe in synthesis being the best or right answer, especially considering the narrative of the importance of free will, and deversity among species. synthesis seems to fall more in line with reaper ideology of order above chaos. i understand god child expecting technological evolution, i just dont understand it knowing the exact workings of something that was finished a couple of hours before.


The best part is how you have to struggle with absolute garbage equipment and regardless of skill you'll be nearly worthless to your teams for quite a while even on bronze...  unless you give BW RL money, then they'll hook you up with the good stuff right away. <_<

#17730
Nizzemancer

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No.

/Thread.

Bioware needs to come up with their own poor excuses, you're not allowed to help them.

#17731
Rifneno

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Nizzemancer wrote...

No.

/Thread.

Bioware needs to come up with their own poor excuses, you're not allowed to help them.


Worst post ever.

#17732
jackncoke28

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I see the final "choices" as ideological choices not literal ones, its about Shepard's beliefs on what is best for the galaxy. It's why I always choose destruction of reapers. Control compromises Shepard, basically negating the entire conflict with TIM, but not the galaxy, it and all it's species are allowed to continue on their path. Synthesis compromises the importance of species diversity, it's an acceptance of reaper idea of evolved order.

#17733
HairyMadDog1010

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Nizzemancer wrote...

No.

/Thread.

Bioware needs to come up with their own poor excuses, you're not allowed to help them.


Please read the OP and then come back ready to have an intelligant dicussion where both party's produce evidence for each differing opinion.

#17734
Stumpykins

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hasn't the behind the scenes ipad app proved that this theory is untrue. im sure i read that they toyed with the idea of shepard becoming under full reaper control (indoctrination) but dropped it due to the fact they couldnt get it to work right with dialogue options

://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9999272/1
heres the link

#17735
Rob Psyence

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jackncoke28 wrote...

I see the final "choices" as ideological choices not literal ones, its about Shepard's beliefs on what is best for the galaxy. It's why I always choose destruction of reapers. Control compromises Shepard, basically negating the entire conflict with TIM, but not the galaxy, it and all it's species are allowed to continue on their path. Synthesis compromises the importance of species diversity, it's an acceptance of reaper idea of evolved order.


Thats what ultimately drove my choice also, the idea of letting the reapers live just rubs me the wrong way lol

#17736
Dwailing

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OK guys, is past midnight here and I have to get up at 7:30ish tomorrow so I have to say goodnight. I will leave with a bit of humor to brighten up everyone's spirits. I mentioned Turians holding the line in Louisville earlier, so I'll leave with a fact about everyone's favorite Turian: the Reapers only tried indoctrinating Commander Shepard because they knew that if they tried to indoctrinate Garrus Vakarian his resistance in the halucination would be enough to destroy them in the real world without needing a Prothean super weapon. :)

#17737
The Rezonator

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One item that wasnt covered here (as far as i can tell) is that the Control choice is the only one that saves the Citadel as well.

Synthesis and Destruction both destroy the Citadel, yet the Contol option distinctly shows the Citadel closing after the blast.

Not sure how that relates, though maybe it has to do with the Reapers being certain of having such control over Shepard that they dont want to destroy the Citadel to facilitate the next cycle?

Does sabotage the Synthesis thoery a bit, but still. I did think it was odd that the Control ending didnt destroy the Citadel.

#17738
Rob Psyence

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Stumpykins wrote...

hasn't the behind the scenes ipad app proved that this theory is untrue. im sure i read that they toyed with the idea of shepard becoming under full reaper control (indoctrination) but dropped it due to the fact they couldnt get it to work right with dialogue options

://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9999272/1
heres the link


That's referring to the character model being literally controlled.

#17739
MegumiAzusa

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SpectreN1 wrote...

To me, the indoctrination theory has some huge plot holes. For one, how does Shepard become a legend by having a hallucination or by becoming indoctrinated?

It also could mean the cycle has ended and humans have been harvested. That would make the Stargazer and Child some other alien that looks similar. Shep became a legend because of Liara's seeded storage devices.

#17740
kyg_20X6

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Stumpykins wrote...

hasn't the behind the scenes ipad app proved that this theory is untrue. im sure i read that they toyed with the idea of shepard becoming under full reaper control (indoctrination) but dropped it due to the fact they couldnt get it to work right with dialogue options

://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9999272/1
heres the link


If you were fully controlled by Reapers you wouldn't be able to play. What is the next step down? A hallucinatory indoctrination dream sequence where Shepard is given some control. What did we get?

Modifié par kyg_20X6, 19 mars 2012 - 04:25 .


#17741
crimsontotem

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wow that was a great show, lol both fb comment and tweeter statement got deleted.... someone is getting fired tonight... lol

#17742
Stumpykins

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kyg_20X6 wrote...

Stumpykins wrote...

hasn't the behind the scenes ipad app proved that this theory is untrue. im sure i read that they toyed with the idea of shepard becoming under full reaper control (indoctrination) but dropped it due to the fact they couldnt get it to work right with dialogue options

://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9999272/1
heres the link


If you were fully controlled by Reapers you wouldn't be able to play. What is the next step down? A hallucinatory indoctrination dream sequence where Shepard is given some control. What did we get?


good point didnt think of that, then i guess this theory still has merit, thank god,
Posted Image

#17743
fieryace

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Dwailing wrote...

OK guys, is past midnight here and I have to get up at 7:30ish tomorrow so I have to say goodnight. I will leave with a bit of humor to brighten up everyone's spirits. I mentioned Turians holding the line in Louisville earlier, so I'll leave with a fact about everyone's favorite Turian: the Reapers only tried indoctrinating Commander Shepard because they knew that if they tried to indoctrinate Garrus Vakarian his resistance in the halucination would be enough to destroy them in the real world without needing a Prothean super weapon. :)


Garrus doesn't call the wrong number, you answer the wrong phone.
Garrus threw a grenade and killed 50 people. And then the grenade went off.
Ghosts sit around campfires and tell stories about Garrus.
Garrus is the reason Waldo is in hiding.

Modifié par fieryace, 19 mars 2012 - 04:31 .


#17744
kyg_20X6

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Something that hit me on my recent playthrough was how similar the ramp leading to TIM's office looks just like the one leading to the Citadel control panel. Proportions, chasms on the sides.. very similar. Not to mention how TIM's curved, red-lit room, looking out on space looks just like the area on the Citadel: rounded platform, console at front, lighting, view, etc.

Hit me like a ton of bricks as soon as I reached the bottom of that ramp at Cerberus HQ. I just went 'wow!'. The room at the end clinched it.

#17745
Martukis

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crimsontotem wrote...

wow that was a great show, lol both fb comment and tweeter statement got deleted.... someone is getting fired tonight... lol


 Huh?

#17746
jackncoke28

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kyg_20X6 wrote...

Something that hit me on my recent playthrough was how similar the ramp leading to TIM's office looks just like the one leading to the Citadel control panel. Proportions, chasms on the sides.. very similar. Not to mention how TIM's curved, red-lit room, looking out on space looks just like the area on the Citadel: rounded platform, console at front, lighting, view, etc.

Hit me like a ton of bricks as soon as I reached the bottom of that ramp at Cerberus HQ. I just went 'wow!'. The room at the end clinched it.

even battle going on outside the window seems the same

#17747
Nizzemancer

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HairyMadDog1010 wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

No.

/Thread.

Bioware needs to come up with their own poor excuses, you're not allowed to help them.


Please read the OP and then come back ready to have an intelligant dicussion where both party's produce evidence for each differing opinion.


You mean all the groundless speculations that are basicly overanalyzation of oversights Bioware made? Yeah, I read that post. My answer is still no - Shepard isn't indoctrinated.

now good night/morning, kind sir/madame!

Modifié par Nizzemancer, 19 mars 2012 - 04:45 .


#17748
MegumiAzusa

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Rifneno wrote...

The best part is how you have to struggle with absolute garbage equipment and regardless of skill you'll be nearly worthless to your teams for quite a while even on bronze...  unless you give BW RL money, then they'll hook you up with the good stuff right away. <_<

You can do Silver right away with only your skills and a pistol. Especially as an Adept you just go for biotic explosions, else maybe Overload. Never played Bronze since the Demo.

#17749
JTP117

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Nizzemancer wrote...

HairyMadDog1010 wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

No.

/Thread.

Bioware needs to come up with their own poor excuses, you're not allowed to help them.


Please read the OP and then come back ready to have an intelligant dicussion where both party's produce evidence for each differing opinion.


You mean all the groundless speculations that are basicly overanalyzation of oversights Bioware made? Yeah, I read that post. My answer is still no - Shepard isn't indoctrinated.



And you waited until 710 pages into this thread to say that?

Modifié par JTP117, 19 mars 2012 - 04:46 .


#17750
Nizzemancer

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JTP117 wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

HairyMadDog1010 wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

No.

/Thread.

Bioware needs to come up with their own poor excuses, you're not allowed to help them.


Please read the OP and then come back ready to have an intelligant dicussion where both party's produce evidence for each differing opinion.


You mean all the groundless speculations that are basicly overanalyzation of oversights Bioware made? Yeah, I read that post. My answer is still no - Shepard isn't indoctrinated.



And you waited until 710 pages into this thread to say that?

No, that would imply that I knew about this thread earlier. I did however decide to post in the thread when it was already 710 pages into the discussion...so terribly sorry for breaking the chronology-rules of this thread.