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[blueboxblues]

LeRavelle wrote...

Am I missing some information but how did sovereign influence the geth? as the codex states that Indoctrination is the term used for the brainwashing effect the Reapers have on "organic beings". A signal or an energy field surrounds the Reaper, which influences "people's minds"

They weren't really indoctrinated, Soveriegn just offered to exchange data and tech for their help in starting the Reaper invasion. Those geth just seemed to see Soverign as the ultimate "synthetic evolution" and basically worshipped it because Soveriegn was apparently a badass.

[Maegorod]

Rodrigo Galliard wrote...

One thing that keeps bothering me. Why people state that the renegade stuff mens bad stuff? Renegade means "do whatever you need to do, even when others don't have the guts to do so, trying to achieve something good". Shepard is not evil, he wants to save the galaxy, even the renegade Shepard is good, he just put the duty above all things, mostly. The "Anderson Choice" is "Renegade" because military people usually puts duty above all things, this is "Renegade" in the game, mostly. Paragon is a kind of "i want to save everybody", who usually follow his heart, mostly, what is dangerous, but rewarding, in other hand, Renegade people just do what they have to do, and have no concerns about "some" casualties, the goal must be achieved at any cost.

Aye when missions give such outcomes (renegade -> casualties but mission completed) you are correct, but how is hitting a reporter in the face an act of duty?  I can understand not wanting to waste time with a reporter, but hitting one in the face is unnecesarry I think (although hilarious) as you can also just 'normally' end the convo. Several more things seem 'evil/bad' when choosing the renegade option (mostly minor interactions), which makes people associate that with renegade I guess

[Silasqtx]

LeRavelle wrote...

Am I missing some information but how did sovereign influence the geth? as the codex states that Indoctrination is the term used for the brainwashing effect the Reapers have on "organic beings". A signal or an energy field surrounds the Reaper, which influences "people's minds"

He did, but not with indoctrination.

Behold, I am the apex of evolution. I am a nation, independent, free of any weakness.

Geth: omg he's a messiah, we're interdependent! /worship
Some Geth didn't think that way, but their docile nature prevented them to take action against the "heretics"


Edit: Check this out, my alternative endings featuring Indoc. Theory
http://social.biowar...8105/2#10244186 

Modifié par Silasqtx, 19 mars 2012 - 02:55 .

[DarkLordofDevon]

Will be interesting to see how this all turns out. I'm hoping for a better ending but its anyone's guess right now.

Was it planned? Ending changed at the last minute? PR Stunt with the real ending held back? Retcon?

Time will tell, though I wish there was less waiting,

[Chyliss]

In reference to my post last night (if anyone remembers). Here is more to support that Shepard was possibly in a virtual reality environment during the end sequence, not a dream or halucination. Legion essentially explains how it works in this mission:



I urge you to watch it and listen and watch carefully. Shepard is sent in there to essentially "shut down" the geth from inside their own programming. As Shepard enters new nodes in the network, the same white out occurs as when he is at "the Citadel" in the ending sequence. He is supplied with a weapon that has unlimited ammo, Legion guides his path with "shifting" panels, etc.

Also, he could EASILY be still on the ground on earth through all of it because that is how he entered the virtual reality in Project Overlord:

From the wiki: "Destroy the VI: Shepard accesses the panel, but something goes wrong. The virus does something to Shepard’s Omni-tool and cybernetic implants. Shepard’s vision starts to fill up with computer like visions, and Shepard walks out of the room in a daze, then falls to the floor. After getting back up however, the door closes behind Shepard, trapping your squadmates in the room.

Welcome to Virtual Reality, in this mode you are just as deadly as in real life, so are your enemies, but you can understand David. Because you are alone, be sure to look around corners, conserve your ammo, and stay in cover to avoid being killed."

So I think the entire end squence took place in a virtual representation of the Reaper collective. Maybe Shepard entered it and originally they were unaware of his presence? Perhaps they brought him in purposefully to continue attempts to indoctrinate him? I don't know, obviously. But I DO think that what was going on in the end was a combination of this AND indoctrination attempts. The Reapers (specifically Harbinger is my guess) have been unsuccessfully trying to indoctrinate Shepard for a while, I think that is what the dream sequences represent but it wasn't working because Shepard is not 100% organic. He is a hybrid and his synthetic half was preventing complete indoctrination while his organic side was displaying the symptoms of their attempt. The key is that his synthetic half would allow him access to THEIR collective so he could be the first one after a multitude of cycles who could actually stop them. They weren't prepared for that.

And from that point of view, I'm not entirely convinced that the Synthesis ending is a bad one. Even the Control ending could be an option, albeit a risky one, given the scenario above.

Finally, in the Legion quest, it is mentioned early on that "your mind percieves our world as something familiar" and they "must protect the exit port". The high EMS ratings required to get the Shep waking up sequence for destroy could simply be that there is enough firepower in the real world on the ground to protect the area around the conduit which is the likely entry/exit port into the Reaper collective, so Shep's body was protected while he was inside the VR. Also, when Legion shows himself to Shepard inside, he looks oddly familiar to how the Godchild appears to Shep, all silver and sparkly like.

There is plenty more I could add to this but I'll leave it for now. And this is not meant as an alternative to the Indoctrination theory detailed here but more like adding to it. Because I do believe they were attempting to indoctrinate him while he was accessing their programming. I just don't think even Shepard realized what was going on so it seemed more like a dream/hallucination than a virtual reality to the player.

This theory, if correct, definitely contains parallels to The Matrix, lol.

[LeRavelle]

slyko227 wrote...

LeRavelle wrote...

Am I missing some information but how did sovereign influence the geth? as the codex states that Indoctrination is the term used for the brainwashing effect the Reapers have on "organic beings". A signal or an energy field surrounds the Reaper, which influences "people's minds"

Geth are sythetic so he used reaper code to control them, as seen in fighter squadron when you enter the geth consensus

Aha, I missed that part because when you leave rannoch, the cluster dissapears from the galaxy map so coudn't do that mission anymore.

[ValnKmere]

JTP117 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

Kyp wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The fact that god child knew what crucible could do, when it had just been completed for the first time in any cycle, still bothers me.

Well, it was kind of clear that one of the bigger underlying themes was that of evolution.  Of course species evolve - we see this largely through Javik's dialogue about the current species in charge and his thoughts on evolution being the only rule of the cosmos.  But also technological evolution - every species builds on top of what species before it did, who passed it along to them.  

So, to perhaps explain how the AI knew what the Crucible would do, it is possible that the technology - like almost all the other technology in the galaxy - came from the same place that the reapers and AI did.  The successful completion of the crucible was, as the name implies, a test to allow for organics to truly evolve to the point of allowing synthesis with synthetics.  (If the endings stand as they are, then I think that synthesis is supposed to be the right answer, despite Shep waking up in the "perfect" ending that I'm PISSED AS HELL is impossible to get without playing multiplayer)

im pissed about the multiplayer situation too. also i dont believe in synthesis being the best or right answer, especially considering the narrative of the importance of free will, and deversity among species. synthesis seems to fall more in line with reaper ideology of order above chaos. i understand god child expecting technological evolution, i just dont understand it knowing the exact workings of something that was finished a couple of hours before.

Aw man! How much MP do you have to do to get it?

Hours of it, to basically max out EMS and Galactic Readiness.  Your EMS is based on your Galactic Readiness %.  If I recall you need over 5000 EMS to get the "perfect" ending.

By default Galactic Readiness is at 50% so if you have 4000 Readiness your Effective Strength is only 2000.  The highest I could get readiness WITHOUT any MP was 5300 (so 2650) EMS.

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Not much going on here anymore.. I gotta say, even IF Bioware is planning something, it's already a little too late. More and more people start to just accept the ending as bad and move on. I can feel myself starting to care less and less.

[MegumiAzusa]

I've collected over 6600 points in war assets (3300 EMS) and didn't even get the "collect most of the war assets" achievement. There is enough without playing the MP.

[Baelyn]

ValnKmere wrote...

JTP117 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

Kyp wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

The fact that god child knew what crucible could do, when it had just been completed for the first time in any cycle, still bothers me.

Well, it was kind of clear that one of the bigger underlying themes was that of evolution.  Of course species evolve - we see this largely through Javik's dialogue about the current species in charge and his thoughts on evolution being the only rule of the cosmos.  But also technological evolution - every species builds on top of what species before it did, who passed it along to them.  

So, to perhaps explain how the AI knew what the Crucible would do, it is possible that the technology - like almost all the other technology in the galaxy - came from the same place that the reapers and AI did.  The successful completion of the crucible was, as the name implies, a test to allow for organics to truly evolve to the point of allowing synthesis with synthetics.  (If the endings stand as they are, then I think that synthesis is supposed to be the right answer, despite Shep waking up in the "perfect" ending that I'm PISSED AS HELL is impossible to get without playing multiplayer)

im pissed about the multiplayer situation too. also i dont believe in synthesis being the best or right answer, especially considering the narrative of the importance of free will, and deversity among species. synthesis seems to fall more in line with reaper ideology of order above chaos. i understand god child expecting technological evolution, i just dont understand it knowing the exact workings of something that was finished a couple of hours before.

Aw man! How much MP do you have to do to get it?

Hours of it, to basically max out EMS and Galactic Readiness.  Your EMS is based on your Galactic Readiness %.  If I recall you need over 5000 EMS to get the "perfect" ending.

By default Galactic Readiness is at 50% so if you have 4000 Readiness your Effective Strength is only 2000.  The highest I could get readiness WITHOUT any MP was 5300 (so 2650) EMS.

You must have been doing something very wrong then. On my first playthrough I was able to get 4500 EMS without any multiplayer at all. I did 3 matches (alittle over an hour) and got it to 5300. Its not difficult whatsoever. You just need to make sure you complete all side quests and speak to people often when you are out in the Citadel.

[Terran235]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Not much going on here anymore.. I gotta say, even IF Bioware is planning something, it's already a little too late. More and more people start to just accept the ending as bad and move on. I can feel myself starting to care less and less.

I can understand what you mean. The way i look at it, they wont ever get my money again. Especially not for some bs multiplayer dlc. Crappy ending to an amazing trilogy. Oh mass effect is going on even after shepards story? Cool, i wont be buying it. I'm done with biowares bs. I was planning on buying all the dragon age 2 dlc to finish it 100% but now with this games ending, i just feel the need to avoid everything created by Bioware.


They are just a shadow of their former self. It's like EA is a god damn virus. Destroys every company it touches. Indoctrinates everything it comes in contact with.

[nyrocron]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Not much going on here anymore.. I gotta say, even IF Bioware is planning something, it's already a little too late. More and more people start to just accept the ending as bad and move on. I can feel myself starting to care less and less.

I think they will at least wait two weeks for all people to play it, actually PAX would fit pretty well.

[Earthborn_Shepard]

nyrocron wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Not much going on here anymore.. I gotta say, even IF Bioware is planning something, it's already a little too late. More and more people start to just accept the ending as bad and move on. I can feel myself starting to care less and less.

I think they will at least wait two weeks for all people to play it, actually PAX would fit pretty well.

Yeah, maybe, and that's much too late. The tension is gone, and they have lost their image as impeccable story writers.

[Terran235]

And gained a new image, as liars and deceivers. :'(

[kyg_20X6]

There's other threads for straight up complaining.

[GriffinXP]

Terran235 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Not much going on here anymore.. I gotta say, even IF Bioware is planning something, it's already a little too late. More and more people start to just accept the ending as bad and move on. I can feel myself starting to care less and less.

I can understand what you mean. The way i look at it, they wont ever get my money again. Especially not for some bs multiplayer dlc. Crappy ending to an amazing trilogy. Oh mass effect is going on even after shepards story? Cool, i wont be buying it. I'm done with biowares bs. I was planning on buying all the dragon age 2 dlc to finish it 100% but now with this games ending, i just feel the need to avoid everything created by Bioware.


They are just a shadow of their former self. It's like EA is a god damn virus. Destroys every company it touches. Indoctrinates everything it comes in contact with.

It's necessary for them to harvest gaming studios and store them in EA form.  If they didn't, we'd create other companies, like Activision, who would inevitably grow to kill off all organic life.

Modifié par GriffinXP, 19 mars 2012 - 03:38 .

[Earthborn_Shepard]

GriffinXP wrote...

Terran235 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Not much going on here anymore.. I gotta say, even IF Bioware is planning something, it's already a little too late. More and more people start to just accept the ending as bad and move on. I can feel myself starting to care less and less.

I can understand what you mean. The way i look at it, they wont ever get my money again. Especially not for some bs multiplayer dlc. Crappy ending to an amazing trilogy. Oh mass effect is going on even after shepards story? Cool, i wont be buying it. I'm done with biowares bs. I was planning on buying all the dragon age 2 dlc to finish it 100% but now with this games ending, i just feel the need to avoid everything created by Bioware.


They are just a shadow of their former self. It's like EA is a god damn virus. Destroys every company it touches. Indoctrinates everything it comes in contact with.

It's necessary for them to harvest gaming studios and store them in EA form.  If they didn't, we'd create other companies, like Activision, who would inevitably grow to kill off all organic life.

...that made more sense than the actual ending.

[T16skyhopp]

Re: The App. I can't remember where, but I think BW confirmed it was developed by a 3rd party and not involved in the writing process at all. The messages do not accurately reflect BW's intentions.

[nicotr23]

T16skyhopp wrote...

Re: The App. I can't remember where, but I think BW confirmed it was developed by a 3rd party and not involved in the writing process at all. The messages do not accurately reflect BW's intentions.

You mean Mass Effect 3: datapad ?

[lilOphelia]

T16skyhopp wrote...

Re: The App. I can't remember where, but I think BW confirmed it was developed by a 3rd party and not involved in the writing process at all. The messages do not accurately reflect BW's intentions.

Most likely, if that's true, it's a 3rd party under EA. I have it and it has EA all over it. Sadly, it doesn't say if it was the Bioware division or not. Might be too much to hope for that it's something they snuck in to keep us talking.

[Tailen]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Not much going on here anymore.. I gotta say, even IF Bioware is planning something, it's already a little too late. More and more people start to just accept the ending as bad and move on. I can feel myself starting to care less and less.

I think they will at least wait two weeks for all people to play it, actually PAX would fit pretty well.

Yeah, maybe, and that's much too late. The tension is gone, and they have lost their image as impeccable story writers.

It amazes me that even among those who support this theory there are such strongly divergent opinions.

I found the ending both satisfying and thought-provoking, and this theory proved I wasn't the only one fitting together all the missing pieces.  The clues discovered by everyone here gave the ending a haunting and chilling truth that took me from being satisfied with the ending to utterly astounded.

And yet others simply "hold the line", using the evidence here as a ray of hope that BioWare will continue Shepard's journey.  Somehow, whether this theory is right or wrong, if it doesn't lead to a continuation it was all for naught.  This beautifully symbolic and bittersweet ending won't stand on its own merits as impeccable storytelling without -- and I realize this sounds slightly haughty -- being spoon-fed a resolution.

Personally, while I'm anxious to see confirmation of this theory -- or rather, the truth behind it from the brilliant minds who left us all the clues to get this far -- I don't require any further hand-held conclusions.  Would I like to see a final, epic battle?  Sure, the part of me that doesn't completely despise Michael Bay would like that.  Do I absolutely require it?  Not at all.

I'm not saying one side of the fence is wrong, I just think it's strange that people use this theory to reaffirm such differing beliefs.

I have to wonder: how many people who didn't find satisfaction in the end chose synthesis or control the first time through?  I know that between my brother and I, he chose 'synthesis' and felt sick about the ending immediately -- utterly disgusted with it, and only after much discussion is he even accepting of this theory while still holding out that the ending lacks closure.  I, on the other hand, chose 'destroy' my first time through and have been nothing but happy with how it played out.

Pattern?  Proof that BioWare's player-indoctrination worked -- caused us to feel Shepard's choice, just as they had hoped?

[T16skyhopp]

nicotr23 wrote...

T16skyhopp wrote...

Re: The App. I can't remember where, but I think BW confirmed it was developed by a 3rd party and not involved in the writing process at all. The messages do not accurately reflect BW's intentions.

You mean Mass Effect 3: datapad ?

Yeah, the datapad.

[Sylvanfeather]

I just read through the whole Google document outlining Indoctrination Theory (link in the OP) and the one point that is not addressed is that Shepard doesn't communicate that she can still make it to the conduit?

She can overhear the comms saying that the team is decimated but doesn't make any response. It can't even be argued that her comm was broken because she uses it to talk to Anderson on the Citadel.

You'd think Shepard would be all like "I got this!".

[Macross]

Here's a question. If the indoctrination sequence is made up of Shepard's memories/made to resemble Shepard's memories, could the fact that the Illusive Man shot himself the same way Saren did not just be a simple call back by Bioware but Shepard imprinting his memory of Saren's death and defeat onto the indoctrinated part of his psyche?

Cause if you look, it's not that the Illusive man just shoots himself, but he shoot's himself in much the same way. Same hand, the gun's on a similar angle. Only real difference is that the Illusive man shot through his temple while Saren did it through the cheek.

Although I guess a problem with that would be how a person could get the Illusive man to shoot himself when Shepard ended up doing the boss fight with Saren. So I'm probably grasping at Emergency Induction Ports

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Tailen wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Not much going on here anymore.. I gotta say, even IF Bioware is planning something, it's already a little too late. More and more people start to just accept the ending as bad and move on. I can feel myself starting to care less and less.

I think they will at least wait two weeks for all people to play it, actually PAX would fit pretty well.

Yeah, maybe, and that's much too late. The tension is gone, and they have lost their image as impeccable story writers.

It amazes me that even among those who support this theory there are such strongly divergent opinions.

I found the ending both satisfying and thought-provoking, and this theory proved I wasn't the only one fitting together all the missing pieces.  The clues discovered by everyone here gave the ending a haunting and chilling truth that took me from being satisfied with the ending to utterly astounded.

And yet others simply "hold the line", using the evidence here as a ray of hope that BioWare will continue Shepard's journey.  Somehow, whether this theory is right or wrong, if it doesn't lead to a continuation it was all for naught.  This beautifully symbolic and bittersweet ending won't stand on its own merits as impeccable storytelling without -- and I realize this sounds slightly haughty -- being spoon-fed a resolution.

Personally, while I'm anxious to see confirmation of this theory -- or rather, the truth behind it from the brilliant minds who left us all the clues to get this far -- I don't require any further hand-held conclusions.  Would I like to see a final, epic battle?  Sure, the part of me that doesn't completely despise Michael Bay would like that.  Do I absolutely require it?  Not at all.

I'm not saying one side of the fence is wrong, I just think it's strange that people use this theory to reaffirm such differing beliefs.

I have to wonder: how many people who didn't find satisfaction in the end chose synthesis or control the first time through?  I know that between my brother and I, he chose 'synthesis' and felt sick about the ending immediately -- utterly disgusted with it, and only after much discussion is he even accepting of this theory while still holding out that the ending lacks closure.  I, on the other hand, chose 'destroy' my first time through and have been nothing but happy with how it played out.

Pattern?  Proof that BioWare's player-indoctrination worked -- caused us to feel Shepard's choice, just as they had hoped?

Exactly, from the moment I spoke to the Catalyst I felt something was wrong, completely and utterly wrong with everything around me. For a good ten minutes or so i did nothing but go over each choice and what I knew trying to make my decision and slowly everything started to come together.

Even if i did not see all the clues then I choose Destruction with a complete certianty that it could be the only proper way to end it based upon everything i had been through. And the breathing at the end was the final nail that sealed my certainty in the theory and my choice.

Do i want closure? Yes. I want to know know what happens. But with this theory, the knowledge that my choice was well taught out i can live with the ending.

And even if the theory was wrong, even if these endings are to be taken a face value the commitment i have been part of in this thread is unlike any other gaming experience ever, it is something that goes deeper than the game itself which is amazing.

But until we get a final answer, I hold the line alongside all of you.

Salarian STG out.