57139 réponses à ce sujet

[JTP117]

Terran235 wrote...

What if the whole final act is an expansion pack? Not DLC, but a fullblown expansion pack.

Then I may need to be hospitalized for a full blown nerd-gasm

[Either.Ardrey]

tb350mdx wrote...

Just noticed a few things about the ending again:

1) The magical gun Shepard uses is the one held by Anderson right before the run to the conduit/beam.....coincidence? I think not.

2 Anderson calls FemShep child. A bit odd.

3) When Shep checks her wound, it is the SAME gunshot that Anderson has, when Shep shoots him.

4) When Shep talks to the catalyst, she is DEFINITELY in space. You can see that the arms of the crucible around the sides.

5) Before the paths pop up, synthesis is the only option for Shep. This is what the Reapers wanted all along.

Just a few points to add to the melting pot of ideas. What do you guys think?

For number 2, it's because daughter doesn't have the same applicability as the generic use of son, which he uses for male Shepard. Many people call other younger males son, even it they aren't related biologically, which is the exact same thing Anderson does with male Shepard from time to time. Thus child for femShep.

The other points besides the first and fifth ones (good observation btw on those two observations) were already in the melting pot in some form or another, and are a part of the stronger evidence for IT. 

The backbone of this theory lies on the ShepAlive clip after the optimal Destroy ending. Everything else is either supplementary evidence that strengthens or adds to the original evidence, or optional evidence that is inconsequential to the strength of the theory. As far as I've seen, the only evidence that tried to counter IT that held weight revolved around the optional evidence that is usually overanalyzation.

As far as for 5, are you saying that the scene animation brings up Destroy and Control physically after we regain control, because in the dialogue, Destroy is brought up and shown first, then control, and then synthesis. Also, if your EMS sucks, then Destroy is your only option.

[Terran235]

If that were the case it could get a proper epic ending with a 10 minute CGI like those final fantasy endings lol. I would love if they showed everyone celebrating after the battle, or something positive ffs! give our shepards a happy ending, bioware :'(.

[Vandicus]

Elp wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Elp wrote...

 I think the biggest problem with Indoctrination Theory is the fact that is doesn't explain why there was a cutscene of the Crucible fireing and showing what happened to the galaxy.If the entire ending is just Sheppard fighting indoctrination, and none of it had any real effect, the Crucible wouldn't have fired. 

You could say the fireing of the Crucible was also a hallucination. But whose hallucination would that be? It certainly isn't shown from the Sheppard perspective.
Also, if you succesfully fight the indoctrination by chosing the Destroy option, the indoctrination ends so there shouldn't be anymore hallucinations. Yet, you still see the Crucible fireing. According to the InDoc Theory, that shouldn't have happened. Which means that the Crucible fireing cannot be a hallucination. It actually fired. If the Crucible fired, it means Sheppard was successfull in fireing it.

Another problem with the Indoctrination Theory is the Stargazer scene. Apparently humanity survived (with advanced space flight capability), that can only be if the Reapers were stopped. This is a second indication that the Crucible was actually used.

I do believe there was some kind of 'hallucination', but it's purpose wasn't to deceive Sheppard and it didn't start when Sheppard was hit by the laser beam. I want to believe that Sheppard passed out on the elevator platform near the control panel and the Child detects this. The Child knows the cycle is no longer a valid Solution because over the years the Organics keep getting closer to completing the Crucible and now they have succeeded. The Child interfaces with the mind of the unconscious Sheppard in order to give him The Choice. This isn't that farfetched when you consider that InDoc works in a similar fashion and apparently the much less advanced Geth have similar technology. 

The symbolism used in The Choice scene shows that this part is NOT real. The Destroy option is triggered by shooting a conduit, that doesn't make any sense from an engineering/mechanical perspective. However, it does make sense when you see the gun as a symbol for destruction. It also explains the Child itself, the Catalyst has entered Sheppard's mind and has chosen a familiar form to represent itself (cliché, I know).
Although the appearance of The Choice isn't real, The Choice itself is and it's effects are. The Crucible fires, Sheppard dies unless he choses the Destroy options, etc. etc. 


It's still a very poor ending, and offers no incentive at all to re-play either ME3 or its predecessors, but to me it's the only way for it to make sense. It's somewhat of a hybrid theory between InDoc Theory, and the uhm.. 'Everything was real' theory. 

The indoctrination theory holds that Shepard's indoctrination only ends AFTER he wakes up in the breath scene. So this is actually after the Crucible supposedly fires. The indoctrination theory never states that Shepard fails to activate the Crucible or stop the Reapers, it states that we just haven't seen it happen yet.

But that can't be. The  hallucination supposedly starts when Sheppard is knocked out by the giant laser beam, he isn't even near the Crucible at that time. So he somehow fired the Crucible while indoctrinated while not even making it to the transporter beam? That doesn't make sense.

Either he truelly made it  to the Citadel and there was no hallucination, or he was knocked out by the giant laser beam and started hallucinating the ending. In that case, there no way he could have fired the Crucible.

Let me repeat.

Shepard did not fire the Crucible. He never made it to the Conduit or Citadel. The results of the Crucible are imagined.

The Indoctrination theory DOES NOT SAY that Shepard fails in his mission afterwards. It just says we haven't actually seen him succeed at it yet.

[wantedman dan]

Terran235 wrote...

If that were the case it could get a proper epic ending with a 10 minute CGI like those final fantasy endings lol. I would love if they showed everyone celebrating after the battle, or something positive ffs! give our shepards a happy ending, bioware :'(.

It doesn't even need to be a happy ending.

One that satisfies the plot and the issues at hand is the only thing necessary.

[N7xELITE]

 Even if BioWare do not release a new ending they still have to answer how the hell Shepard survived being blown up by the citadel and being burned to a crisp by the atmosphere and still breathing after.  So this gives me hope :happy:   Keep holding the line 

[Terran235]

Well thats fine for you but i like my happy endings.

[Vandicus]

Either.Ardrey wrote...

tb350mdx wrote...

Just noticed a few things about the ending again:

1) The magical gun Shepard uses is the one held by Anderson right before the run to the conduit/beam.....coincidence? I think not.

2 Anderson calls FemShep child. A bit odd.

3) When Shep checks her wound, it is the SAME gunshot that Anderson has, when Shep shoots him.

4) When Shep talks to the catalyst, she is DEFINITELY in space. You can see that the arms of the crucible around the sides.

5) Before the paths pop up, synthesis is the only option for Shep. This is what the Reapers wanted all along.

Just a few points to add to the melting pot of ideas. What do you guys think?

For number 2, it's because daughter doesn't have the same applicability as the generic use of son, which he uses for male Shepard. Many people call other younger males son, even it they aren't related biologically, which is the exact same thing Anderson does with male Shepard from time to time. Thus child for femShep.

The other points besides the first and fifth ones (good observation btw on those two observations) were already in the melting pot in some form or another, and are a part of the stronger evidence for IT. 

The backbone of this theory lies on the ShepAlive clip after the optimal Destroy ending. Everything else is either supplementary evidence that strengthens or adds to the original evidence, or optional evidence that is inconsequential to the strength of the theory. As far as I've seen, the only evidence that tried to counter IT that held weight revolved around the optional evidence that is usually overanalyzation.

As far as for 5, are you saying that the scene animation brings up Destroy and Control physically after we regain control, because in the dialogue, Destroy is brought up and shown first, then control, and then synthesis. Also, if your EMS sucks, then Destroy is your only option.

If your EMS sucks Destroy OR Control are your only options. It depends on whether or not Shepard saved the Collector Base. Either way Shepard is believed to have been cut down by enemy forces so it wasn't even necessary to finish Indoctrination.

[Either.Ardrey]

Elp wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Elp wrote...

 I think the biggest problem with Indoctrination Theory is the fact that is doesn't explain why there was a cutscene of the Crucible fireing and showing what happened to the galaxy.If the entire ending is just Sheppard fighting indoctrination, and none of it had any real effect, the Crucible wouldn't have fired. 

You could say the fireing of the Crucible was also a hallucination. But whose hallucination would that be? It certainly isn't shown from the Sheppard perspective.
Also, if you succesfully fight the indoctrination by chosing the Destroy option, the indoctrination ends so there shouldn't be anymore hallucinations. Yet, you still see the Crucible fireing. According to the InDoc Theory, that shouldn't have happened. Which means that the Crucible fireing cannot be a hallucination. It actually fired. If the Crucible fired, it means Sheppard was successfull in fireing it.

Another problem with the Indoctrination Theory is the Stargazer scene. Apparently humanity survived (with advanced space flight capability), that can only be if the Reapers were stopped. This is a second indication that the Crucible was actually used.

I do believe there was some kind of 'hallucination', but it's purpose wasn't to deceive Sheppard and it didn't start when Sheppard was hit by the laser beam. I want to believe that Sheppard passed out on the elevator platform near the control panel and the Child detects this. The Child knows the cycle is no longer a valid Solution because over the years the Organics keep getting closer to completing the Crucible and now they have succeeded. The Child interfaces with the mind of the unconscious Sheppard in order to give him The Choice. This isn't that farfetched when you consider that InDoc works in a similar fashion and apparently the much less advanced Geth have similar technology. 

The symbolism used in The Choice scene shows that this part is NOT real. The Destroy option is triggered by shooting a conduit, that doesn't make any sense from an engineering/mechanical perspective. However, it does make sense when you see the gun as a symbol for destruction. It also explains the Child itself, the Catalyst has entered Sheppard's mind and has chosen a familiar form to represent itself (cliché, I know).
Although the appearance of The Choice isn't real, The Choice itself is and it's effects are. The Crucible fires, Sheppard dies unless he choses the Destroy options, etc. etc. 


It's still a very poor ending, and offers no incentive at all to re-play either ME3 or its predecessors, but to me it's the only way for it to make sense. It's somewhat of a hybrid theory between InDoc Theory, and the uhm.. 'Everything was real' theory. 

The indoctrination theory holds that Shepard's indoctrination only ends AFTER he wakes up in the breath scene. So this is actually after the Crucible supposedly fires. The indoctrination theory never states that Shepard fails to activate the Crucible or stop the Reapers, it states that we just haven't seen it happen yet.

But that can't be. The  hallucination supposedly starts when Sheppard is knocked out by the giant laser beam, he isn't even near the Crucible at that time. So he somehow fired the Crucible while indoctrinated while not even making it to the transporter beam? That doesn't make sense.

Either he truelly made it  to the Citadel and there was no hallucination, or he was knocked out by the giant laser beam and started hallucinating the ending. In that case, there no way he could have fired the Crucible.

I think you might have misunderstood what he/she was trying to say. What the theory is actually trying to say is that the Crucible firing, Mass Relays doing weird stuff, Reapers fleeing or dying, Normandy fleeing with teleported squadmates, etc, up until the ShepAlive clip, is Shepard visualizing his wish for his squadmates safety and survival, so that he can justify his decision, so to speak.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Darn it. At least I hope I explained it a bit more thoroughly.

Modifié par Either.Ardrey, 19 mars 2012 - 10:45 .

[MassEffectFan11]

If I may, and I don't know if this has been mentioned before, I'd also like to point out that, if it was real, why, when Shepard teleports to the Citadel, does that Keeper look directly at Shepard when, as the other games have shown, the Keepers are supposed to completely disregard everyone? They never pay attention to anyone or anything around them other than the Citadel, but that one looks directly at Shepard. Why? I don't think a real Keeper would do that.

[Lemonite]

MassEffectFan11 wrote...

If I may, and I don't know if this has been mentioned before, I'd also like to point out that, if it was real, why, when Shepard teleports to the Citadel, does that Keeper look directly at Shepard when, as the other games have shown, the Keepers are supposed to completely disregard everyone? They never pay attention to anyone or anything around them other than the Citadel, but that one looks directly at Shepard. Why? I don't think a real Keeper would do that.

Never thought about that... Interesting. 

[Either.Ardrey]

Vandicus wrote...

Either.Ardrey wrote...

tb350mdx wrote...

Just noticed a few things about the ending again:

1) The magical gun Shepard uses is the one held by Anderson right before the run to the conduit/beam.....coincidence? I think not.

2 Anderson calls FemShep child. A bit odd.

3) When Shep checks her wound, it is the SAME gunshot that Anderson has, when Shep shoots him.

4) When Shep talks to the catalyst, she is DEFINITELY in space. You can see that the arms of the crucible around the sides.

5) Before the paths pop up, synthesis is the only option for Shep. This is what the Reapers wanted all along.

Just a few points to add to the melting pot of ideas. What do you guys think?

For number 2, it's because daughter doesn't have the same applicability as the generic use of son, which he uses for male Shepard. Many people call other younger males son, even it they aren't related biologically, which is the exact same thing Anderson does with male Shepard from time to time. Thus child for femShep.

The other points besides the first and fifth ones (good observation btw on those two observations) were already in the melting pot in some form or another, and are a part of the stronger evidence for IT. 

The backbone of this theory lies on the ShepAlive clip after the optimal Destroy ending. Everything else is either supplementary evidence that strengthens or adds to the original evidence, or optional evidence that is inconsequential to the strength of the theory. As far as I've seen, the only evidence that tried to counter IT that held weight revolved around the optional evidence that is usually overanalyzation.

As far as for 5, are you saying that the scene animation brings up Destroy and Control physically after we regain control, because in the dialogue, Destroy is brought up and shown first, then control, and then synthesis. Also, if your EMS sucks, then Destroy is your only option.

If your EMS sucks Destroy OR Control are your only options. It depends on whether or not Shepard saved the Collector Base. Either way Shepard is believed to have been cut down by enemy forces so it wasn't even necessary to finish Indoctrination.

Oops. Incomplete. My bad. I destroyed the Collector base in all of my ME2 playthroughs, and only looked at those ending options on the IGN article after I had accidently/mistakenly done Synthesis since I wanted to do Destroy, but I couldn't find the Control and Destroy options. I originally thought my EMS locked into that ending, but it turns out I was just looking in the wrong direction.

[RogueFreer]

I've got to say, I do love this theory. The way things are I doubt it was the original idea but there is a satisfying aptness to the theory. As everyone has said, it makes sense, it fills the blanks and would be an incredibly intelligent piece of story writing - hell even if the fanbase hadn't revolted they should definitely have put it in.

More than anything else, it's a credit to the ingenuity of the OP and anyone else who theorized this.

[ChristopherShepard]

Lemonite wrote...

MassEffectFan11 wrote...

If I may, and I don't know if this has been mentioned before, I'd also like to point out that, if it was real, why, when Shepard teleports to the Citadel, does that Keeper look directly at Shepard when, as the other games have shown, the Keepers are supposed to completely disregard everyone? They never pay attention to anyone or anything around them other than the Citadel, but that one looks directly at Shepard. Why? I don't think a real Keeper would do that.

Never thought about that... Interesting. 

..and what are they doing with the dead body's???

[sjrskl]

I feel the need to post some indoctrination goodness with
possible counter arguments and  have to  mention some strange inconsistencies about the
kid followed by mind droppings and strangeness.

The Kid.

When you first see the kid he is on a rooftop with a garden in
front of the alliance compound we can extrapolate where he is when we see Shepard
looking out a window in the front of the building.



when the defense committee gets blown up and Anderson/Shep are going outside to
the front of the building we should be able to see the kid. you can confirm
this by looking to your right and seeing the window where Shepard was looking
out from but there is no kid to be found. then we go left and walk a while and
then suddenly the kid is in front of us. on a the building across which has no
garden and is in fact not located in front of the alliance compound.



we see the boy walking inside after which the building gets blown up by a
reaper beam. we then walk to the room with the vent, next to the vent is a
warning sign with danger of electrocution or some-such. and we have the rather
strange dialogue with the kid first he says "everyone is dying" and
then he says "you can't help me" both of which I can't imagine a real
kid saying but still isn't outside the realm of bad writing.



we hear Anderson and suddenly the child is gone we also hear strange growls.
after the fight with the cannibals we see the kid again going towards the
shuttle always accompanied by a caution and danger sign in the background
(slight visual cue). no one interacts with the kid or tries to help him aboard
the shuttle. then we finally see him conclusively shot dead by the reapers.



now can you explain to me how PTSD can cause hallucinations to this extent
?  or if this child is real how does he get from one building-top to the
other in the time of the opening sequence ? or how does he survive in a
building getting blasted by a reaper ? seems to me the kid isn't real and PTSD
isn't a catch all for all of it. the dreams can be PTSD or it can be
indoctrination if you've listened to the Rachni queen you hear her mention oily
shadows and a sour yellow note. in the dreams we see more and more shadows appear
and hear voices these are clear and obvious signs of either PTSD or
indoctrination. the shadows also converge around the boy and in the ending we
see the boy burn every time. also www.youtube.com/watch comes to mind when talking about the voices and shadows etc.



my Shep did not lose anyone except for the Virmire'd squad mate and of course
our dear mister Jenkins  and had not shown any signs of trauma before mass
effect 3. why does it suddenly affect him now and because of a boy of all things ? if
anything I would imagine Shep to dream about lost squad mates but fine the boy
can be an artistic example of the thing Shepard can't save, but the shadows are
strange as well; they can of course represent all the countless people that
have died in the war and are now weighing heavily on Sheps mind.

Stuff that has been said a million times before (maybe a bit less but you get the point)



then we get the fatalistic talks right before the conduit absolutely no one
really thinks they can make it and even Shepard sounds less than convinced that
they will win. and lo and behold right before we get to the conduit we get blown
up. harbinger flies off and Shep gets up. we hear on the radio that everyone
has been wiped out and the entire force is decimated. but Shep defies the odds
and gets up with a busted up armor and helmet blown off but miraculously his
face is still intact (except for some bruising).

he then has to face down our greatest defender of hope
Marauder Shields the hero we need. but there are some things to note about the environment
that are either sloppy texturing or deliberate sloppy texturing. the piles of
corpses all wear Phoenix armor and have shaved heads like dolls. the
surroundings are very blurry and the trees seem similar to the ones we see in
the dreams (this does not prove anything by and of itself but it can be a
visual clue as to the reality of the situation).

on a low EMS we can see the squad mates we took with us
lying dead on the ground but on a higher EMS this is not the case (this can
imply that with higher EMS comes better prepared squad mates or with higher EMS
you have a better morale). we walk up and into the beam and suddenly we are in
a part of the citadel no one has been before.

we stand in a hall of corpses and keepers (the keepers are
perhaps harvesting the corpses or appear to be groping the bodies). and we hear
Anderson somehow the mere fact that somehow your radio has survived the blast
and we don't even see an Omni tool is strange to say the least. Anderson remarks
on how he got in behind Shepard and is in some corridor with corpses  that somehow reminds him of Shepard's
description of the collector base.  Shepard
agrees with this for some reason even when we can clearly see that is not the
case (but all right let's roll with it and say this is just bad level design).

we don't see Shepard interacting with either his ear or his
arm (what we see him do throughout the game when he tries to contact someone)
but somehow Anderson can hear him. he then asks if you are all right and again
we see the paragon option is i feel like death and the renegade option is not
entirely happy either.  

Anderson asks if they are making a reaper here and Shepard
agrees. then Anderson says the tubes don't go on forever. we can see some tubes
hanging around  but it is a strange
comment to make. all of it alludes to the end of mass effect 2 when we get to fight
the terminator. which is interesting in and of itself. then Anderson says wow
(ala matrix) one of the walls here just realigned itself, the place is shifting  (this can either mean nothing at all or it
can be a callback to the strange things the scientists on the dead reaper were
seeing)

Shepard hobbles on over the chasm and Anderson remarks on
how he sees something in front of him Shepard says don't get to far ahead of
me. the chasm uses the floor texture of the shadow broker base from the DLC in
mass effect 2 and on either side we see the walls changing and we see and hear
a lot of sparks around. even more strikingly we see the antennae from the ship
on either side of the ramp upwards with the 1m1 on them.

he then sees Anderson hunched over the console and turning
around strangely whilst TIM appears behind Shepard seemingly out of nowhere. we
then see those strange black oily things on the sides of the screen whilst TIM
starts rambling away about the almighty control option. then Anderson grunts
and says they're controlling you (whilst looking directly at the player not Shepard
and not TIM).

you can then talk TIM into killing himself or you can try
the renegade interrupt (if you didn't have that option). we then possibly see Anderson
saying goodbye to Shepard and when he is dead suddenly Shepard touches his
chest to find blood on the exact point where he shot Anderson.

 we then hear Hackett
somehow aware of Shepard's presence on the citadel say to him that the crucible
isn't firing and as Shep tries to reach to console he blacks out. then he gets
uplifted by a magical space elevator to the most godly of godly spacebrat. on
low EMS he says "What are you doing here ?" on high EMS he says "wake
up" (strangely whilst Shep is clearly already awake at that point (this
can of course be explained as horrible animation/story correlation but does not
have to be)).

on low EMS the spacebrat is dismissive and Shep readily
gives in to the options presented by the kid.on higher EMS the third option
becomes available and on the 4000/5000 EMS threshold the destroy option has a
clip of Shepard inhaling under a pile of rubble and Shepard is less convinced
of the choices. seeing a post on Reddit referring to the degree in psychology
that Mac Walters apparently has I kind of find this whole ending curious to say
the least.

everything at this point has been chewed up and regurgitated
many times on the interwebs but I have yet to hear a possible explanation as to
why we hear both Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale on the background when the spacebrat
speaks. the only viable reason as to why is something about Shep's
own consciousness working against him and trying to influence him. the video
that comes closest to what my interpretation is
(also tl;dr)  www.youtube.com/watch

MIND DROPPINGS


Some thoughts about the part that came before it are also
noteworthy the scene originally refers back to the ending of Mass Effect 2 this
helps both the player get into the mindset of an/the ending and also refers to the
terminator/reaper baby. What it could also refer to is Cerberus
base were we find the remains of that reaper. And the walk up to TIM's room is
very similar to the ramp up to the console. Also the room around the console
looks very much like TIM's room even coinciding with the battle outside (or the
lights from the apparently still alive people on the citadel). this is not just
coincidence in my opinion this is very clever level design implying that all of
it is fabricated from Shepard's memories.

also  I would like to
note something very compelling (IMO).when we approach the thought of shepard as
an avatar of the player we can also see the idea were we (the player) are
representative of the willpower that shepard has. we make Shep's choices we
choose the people he talks to the things he says and we kick alien ass by the
pounds. in Mass Effect 1 we have the most control over shepard it gets a bit
tedious at times but we are in full control. in Mass Effect 2 many people
complained that they had less control the RPG elements were reduced Shep
sometimes talks more than one sentence after picking an option and in general
we have less RPG and more pew pew.  finally
in Mass Effect 3 Shep talks even more and we have a hell of a lot less choice in how we
react to things.

what this shows is that we the player get less and less
control and sheps resolve gets worse and worse it's as if Shep is starting to
get separated from the player this coincides with shepard loosing hope in winning this war in the game. our characters somehow all develop PTSD and get
those dreams and when we get to our last choices in the game we have only two
dialogue options and then of course the pick-your-color-magical-rainbow-space-
magic-of-genocidal-doom-choice. what does this leave the player with ? 



we feel betrayed "this isn't how my shep would
react", "this is Bullsh*t", "we want a different
ending" "this is an OUTRAGE !!", "I can't play anymore
nothing matters with this ending" and "where are the shifty looking
space cows ?" so my interpretation is this : it's all a big **** mindf*ck
of epic proportions getting from a game with absolute control and choices to
having three ****ty choices. it's meant to affect the player we see character
growth in Shep's because he becomes more of an individual not a schyzo like we
could play him before, but with that comes loss of control, he gets emotional he
says more than you direct him to.

now of course this ending could also be simple
**** going horribly wrong and backfiring on the evil EA and their poor slaves
at Bioware (or Bioware is just as evil ) I get that and sometimes feel that
same way. but it's fun to speculate and I feel like there is more to it than
people care to admit also what is the ultimate loss of control in Mass Effect:
INDOCTRINATION. for anyone who has made it this far you are awesome for reading my ramblings and please discuss.

Modifié par sjrskl, 19 mars 2012 - 10:51 .

[bkp360]

This is the worst kind of Fan fiction. It's like desperation fan fiction. But BioWare is likely desperate and thinking about how to salvage this and this crappy idea is as good as any other I guess.

[jackncoke28]

Plus I discount low ems ending, to me its the same as no loyalty in me2. Everybody dies and Shepard's story ends there since you can't import a dead Shepard to ME3. The indoctrination is pointless with low ems because the battle is lost before shepard even gets the point of making a "choice"
edit: so its basically shepard mentally finishing what he set out to do, without reaper intervention to convince him otherwise

Modifié par jackncoke28, 19 mars 2012 - 11:00 .

[The Ponderer]

Sounds great!

[wantedman dan]

bkp360 wrote...

This is the worst kind of Fan fiction. It's like desperation fan fiction. But BioWare is likely desperate and thinking about how to salvage this and this crappy idea is as good as any other I guess.

I see you've fully completed the conversion to cynicism.

[HairyMadDog1010]

bkp360 wrote...

This is the worst kind of Fan fiction. It's like desperation fan fiction. But BioWare is likely desperate and thinking about how to salvage this and this crappy idea is as good as any other I guess.

Just how is it desperate and crappy? We have pleanty of evidence, please argue aginst it if you have a differing opinion instead of saying it is crap.

[JTP117]

bkp360 wrote...

This is the worst kind of Fan fiction. It's like desperation fan fiction. But BioWare is likely desperate and thinking about how to salvage this and this crappy idea is as good as any other I guess.

Thanks for that, you can go now.

[tb350mdx]

Either.Ardrey wrote...

tb350mdx wrote...

Just noticed a few things about the ending again:

1) The magical gun Shepard uses is the one held by Anderson right before the run to the conduit/beam.....coincidence? I think not.

2 Anderson calls FemShep child. A bit odd.

3) When Shep checks her wound, it is the SAME gunshot that Anderson has, when Shep shoots him.

4) When Shep talks to the catalyst, she is DEFINITELY in space. You can see that the arms of the crucible around the sides.

5) Before the paths pop up, synthesis is the only option for Shep. This is what the Reapers wanted all along.

Just a few points to add to the melting pot of ideas. What do you guys think?

For number 2, it's because daughter doesn't have the same applicability as the generic use of son, which he uses for male Shepard. Many people call other younger males son, even it they aren't related biologically, which is the exact same thing Anderson does with male Shepard from time to time. Thus child for femShep.

The other points besides the first and fifth ones (good observation btw on those two observations) were already in the melting pot in some form or another, and are a part of the stronger evidence for IT. 

The backbone of this theory lies on the ShepAlive clip after the optimal Destroy ending. Everything else is either supplementary evidence that strengthens or adds to the original evidence, or optional evidence that is inconsequential to the strength of the theory. As far as I've seen, the only evidence that tried to counter IT that held weight revolved around the optional evidence that is usually overanalyzation.

As far as for 5, are you saying that the scene animation brings up Destroy and Control physically after we regain control, because in the dialogue, Destroy is brought up and shown first, then control, and then synthesis. Also, if your EMS sucks, then Destroy is your only option.

Yeah sorry, I didn't think about that number 2 one until now *derp*. Sorry I didn't see the other ones; I sifted through the first and last hundred pages but didn't catch those 

[JTP117]

sjrskl wrote...

I feel the need to post some indoctrination goodness with
possible counter arguments and  have to  mention some strange inconsistencies about the
kid followed by mind droppings and strangeness.

The Kid.

When you first see the kid he is on a rooftop with a garden in
front of the alliance compound we can extrapolate where he is when we see Shepard
looking out a window in the front of the building.



when the defense committee gets blown up and Anderson/Shep are going outside to
the front of the building we should be able to see the kid. you can confirm
this by looking to your right and seeing the window where Shepard was looking
out from but there is no kid to be found. then we go left and walk a while and
then suddenly the kid is in front of us. on a the building across which has no
garden and is in fact not located in front of the alliance compound.



we see the boy walking inside after which the building gets blown up by a
reaper beam. we then walk to the room with the vent, next to the vent is a
warning sign with danger of electrocution or some-such. and we have the rather
strange dialogue with the kid first he says "everyone is dying" and
then he says "you can't help me" both of which I can't imagine a real
kid saying but still isn't outside the realm of bad writing.



we hear Anderson and suddenly the child is gone we also hear strange growls.
after the fight with the cannibals we see the kid again going towards the
shuttle always accompanied by a caution and danger sign in the background
(slight visual cue). no one interacts with the kid or tries to help him aboard
the shuttle. then we finally see him conclusively shot dead by the reapers.



now can you explain to me how PTSD can cause hallucinations to this extent
?  or if this child is real how does he get from one building-top to the
other in the time of the opening sequence ? or how does he survive in a
building getting blasted by a reaper ? seems to me the kid isn't real and PTSD
isn't a catch all for all of it. the dreams can be PTSD or it can be
indoctrination if you've listened to the Rachni queen you hear her mention oily
shadows and a sour yellow note. in the dreams we see more and more shadows appear
and hear voices these are clear and obvious signs of either PTSD or
indoctrination. the shadows also converge around the boy and in the ending we
see the boy burn every time. also www.youtube.com/watch comes to mind when talking about the voices and shadows etc.



my Shep did not lose anyone except for the Virmire'd squad mate and of course
our dear mister Jenkins  and had not shown any signs of trauma before mass
effect 3. why does it suddenly affect him now and because of a boy of all things ? if
anything I would imagine Shep to dream about lost squad mates but fine the boy
can be an artistic example of the thing Shepard can't save, but the shadows are
strange as well; they can of course represent all the countless people that
have died in the war and are now weighing heavily on Sheps mind.

Stuff that has been said a million times before (maybe a bit less but you get the point)



then we get the fatalistic talks right before the conduit absolutely no one
really thinks they can make it and even Shepard sounds less than convinced that
they will win. and lo and behold right before we get to the conduit we get blown
up. harbinger flies off and Shep gets up. we hear on the radio that everyone
has been wiped out and the entire force is decimated. but Shep defies the odds
and gets up with a busted up armor and helmet blown off but miraculously his
face is still intact (except for some bruising).

he then has to face down our greatest defender of hope
Marauder Shields the hero we need. but there are some things to note about the environment
that are either sloppy texturing or deliberate sloppy texturing. the piles of
corpses all wear Phoenix armor and have shaved heads like dolls. the
surroundings are very blurry and the trees seem similar to the ones we see in
the dreams (this does not prove anything by and of itself but it can be a
visual clue as to the reality of the situation).

on a low EMS we can see the squad mates we took with us
lying dead on the ground but on a higher EMS this is not the case (this can
imply that with higher EMS comes better prepared squad mates or with higher EMS
you have a better morale). we walk up and into the beam and suddenly we are in
a part of the citadel no one has been before.

we stand in a hall of corpses and keepers (the keepers are
perhaps harvesting the corpses or appear to be groping the bodies). and we hear
Anderson somehow the mere fact that somehow your radio has survived the blast
and we don't even see an Omni tool is strange to say the least. Anderson remarks
on how he got in behind Shepard and is in some corridor with corpses  that somehow reminds him of Shepard's
description of the collector base.  Shepard
agrees with this for some reason even when we can clearly see that is not the
case (but all right let's roll with it and say this is just bad level design).

we don't see Shepard interacting with either his ear or his
arm (what we see him do throughout the game when he tries to contact someone)
but somehow Anderson can hear him. he then asks if you are all right and again
we see the paragon option is i feel like death and the renegade option is not
entirely happy either.  

Anderson asks if they are making a reaper here and Shepard
agrees. then Anderson says the tubes don't go on forever. we can see some tubes
hanging around  but it is a strange
comment to make. all of it alludes to the end of mass effect 2 when we get to fight
the terminator. which is interesting in and of itself. then Anderson says wow
(ala matrix) one of the walls here just realigned itself, the place is shifting  (this can either mean nothing at all or it
can be a callback to the strange things the scientists on the dead reaper were
seeing)

Shepard hobbles on over the chasm and Anderson remarks on
how he sees something in front of him Shepard says don't get to far ahead of
me. the chasm uses the floor texture of the shadow broker base from the DLC in
mass effect 2 and on either side we see the walls changing and we see and hear
a lot of sparks around. even more strikingly we see the antennae from the ship
on either side of the ramp upwards with the 1m1 on them.

he then sees Anderson hunched over the console and turning
around strangely whilst TIM appears behind Shepard seemingly out of nowhere. we
then see those strange black oily things on the sides of the screen whilst TIM
starts rambling away about the almighty control option. then Anderson grunts
and says they're controlling you (whilst looking directly at the player not Shepard
and not TIM).

you can then talk TIM into killing himself or you can try
the renegade interrupt (if you didn't have that option). we then possibly see Anderson
saying goodbye to Shepard and when he is dead suddenly Shepard touches his
chest to find blood on the exact point where he shot Anderson.

 we then hear Hackett
somehow aware of Shepard's presence on the citadel say to him that the crucible
isn't firing and as Shep tries to reach to console he blacks out. then he gets
uplifted by a magical space elevator to the most godly of godly spacebrat. on
low EMS he says "What are you doing here ?" on high EMS he says "wake
up" (strangely whilst Shep is clearly already awake at that point (this
can of course be explained as horrible animation/story correlation but does not
have to be)).

on low EMS the spacebrat is dismissive and Shep readily
gives in to the options presented by the kid.on higher EMS the third option
becomes available and on the 4000/5000 EMS threshold the destroy option has a
clip of Shepard inhaling under a pile of rubble and Shepard is less convinced
of the choices. seeing a post on Reddit referring to the degree in psychology
that Mac Walters apparently has I kind of find this whole ending curious to say
the least.

everything at this point has been chewed up and regurgitated
many times on the interwebs but I have yet to hear a possible explanation as to
why we hear both Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale on the background when the spacebrat
speaks. the only viable reason as to why is something about Shep's
own consciousness working against him and trying to influence him. the video
that comes closest to what my interpretation is
(also tl;dr)  www.youtube.com/watch

MIND DROPPINGS


Some thoughts about the part that came before it are also
noteworthy the scene originally refers back to the ending of Mass Effect 2 this
helps both the player get into the mindset of an/the ending and also refers to the
terminator/reaper baby. What it could also refer to is Cerberus
base were we find the remains of that reaper. And the walk up to TIM's room is
very similar to the ramp up to the console. Also the room around the console
looks very much like TIM's room even coinciding with the battle outside (or the
lights from the apparently still alive people on the citadel). this is not just
coincidence in my opinion this is very clever level design implying that all of
it is fabricated from Shepard's memories.

also  I would like to
note something very compelling (IMO).when we approach the thought of shepard as
an avatar of the player we can also see the idea were we (the player) are
representative of the willpower that shepard has. we make Shep's choices we
choose the people he talks to the things he says and we kick alien ass by the
pounds. in Mass Effect 1 we have the most control over shepard it gets a bit
tedious at times but we are in full control. in Mass Effect 2 many people
complained that they had less control the RPG elements were reduced Shep
sometimes talks more than one sentence after picking an option and in general
we have less RPG and more pew pew.  finally
in Mass Effect 3 Shep talks even more and we have a hell of a lot less choice in how we
react to things.

what this shows is that we the player get less and less
control and sheps resolve gets worse and worse it's as if Shep is starting to
get separated from the player this coincides with shepard loosing hope in winning this war in the game. our characters somehow all develop PTSD and get
those dreams and when we get to our last choices in the game we have only two
dialogue options and then of course the pick-your-color-magical-rainbow-space-
magic-of-genocidal-doom-choice. what does this leave the player with ? 



we feel betrayed "this isn't how my shep would
react", "this is Bullsh*t", "we want a different
ending" "this is an OUTRAGE !!", "I can't play anymore
nothing matters with this ending" and "where are the shifty looking
space cows ?" so my interpretation is this : it's all a big **** mindf*ck
of epic proportions getting from a game with absolute control and choices to
having three ****ty choices. it's meant to affect the player we see character
growth in Shep's because he becomes more of an individual not a schyzo like we
could play him before, but with that comes loss of control, he gets emotional he
says more than you direct him to.

now of course this ending could also be simple
**** going horribly wrong and backfiring on the evil EA and their poor slaves
at Bioware (or Bioware is just as evil ) I get that and sometimes feel that
same way. but it's fun to speculate and I feel like there is more to it than
people care to admit also what is the ultimate loss of control in Mass Effect:
INDOCTRINATION. for anyone who has made it this far you are awesome for reading my ramblings and please discuss.

Well as far as the delusions, they aren't PTSD, they are the product of indoctrination. Read the codex entry in the game on it, it will explain a lot

[ArkkAngel007]

JTP117 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

JTP117 wrote...

Balteus wrote...

A quick question if you choose destroy do you see EDI on the paradise planet?

Yes, she has been seen several times by several people

In destroy?  Can I get a link please?  This is news to me.

It was earlier in this thread that we were talking about it, back in the 600's. I have no idea how far back tho lol sorry, let me see if I can find something

Basically the initial reasoning is that her body was the only synthetic thing about her, the bulk of what she was was on the normandy, and shepard, being held together by synthetics ala project lazarus, survived when it should have killed him too. Basically from people seeing EDI and the scene where shep is breathing kinda confirms that the godchild was bluffing

But then the Normandy crash was real.  Shepard's mind wouldn't be like "HA! I gotcha you little ****!".

So then the ending really happened with that train of thought.

[sjrskl]

JTP117 wrote...

sjrskl wrote...

I feel the need to post some indoctrination goodness with
possible counter arguments and  have to  mention some strange inconsistencies about the
kid followed by mind droppings and strangeness.

The Kid.

When you first see the kid he is on a rooftop with a garden in
front of the alliance compound we can extrapolate where he is when we see Shepard
looking out a window in the front of the building.



when the defense committee gets blown up and Anderson/Shep are going outside to
the front of the building we should be able to see the kid. you can confirm
this by looking to your right and seeing the window where Shepard was looking
out from but there is no kid to be found. then we go left and walk a while and
then suddenly the kid is in front of us. on a the building across which has no
garden and is in fact not located in front of the alliance compound.



we see the boy walking inside after which the building gets blown up by a
reaper beam. we then walk to the room with the vent, next to the vent is a
warning sign with danger of electrocution or some-such. and we have the rather
strange dialogue with the kid first he says "everyone is dying" and
then he says "you can't help me" both of which I can't imagine a real
kid saying but still isn't outside the realm of bad writing.



we hear Anderson and suddenly the child is gone we also hear strange growls.
after the fight with the cannibals we see the kid again going towards the
shuttle always accompanied by a caution and danger sign in the background
(slight visual cue). no one interacts with the kid or tries to help him aboard
the shuttle. then we finally see him conclusively shot dead by the reapers.



now can you explain to me how PTSD can cause hallucinations to this extent
?  or if this child is real how does he get from one building-top to the
other in the time of the opening sequence ? or how does he survive in a
building getting blasted by a reaper ? seems to me the kid isn't real and PTSD
isn't a catch all for all of it. the dreams can be PTSD or it can be
indoctrination if you've listened to the Rachni queen you hear her mention oily
shadows and a sour yellow note. in the dreams we see more and more shadows appear
and hear voices these are clear and obvious signs of either PTSD or
indoctrination. the shadows also converge around the boy and in the ending we
see the boy burn every time. also www.youtube.com/watch comes to mind when talking about the voices and shadows etc.



my Shep did not lose anyone except for the Virmire'd squad mate and of course
our dear mister Jenkins  and had not shown any signs of trauma before mass
effect 3. why does it suddenly affect him now and because of a boy of all things ? if
anything I would imagine Shep to dream about lost squad mates but fine the boy
can be an artistic example of the thing Shepard can't save, but the shadows are
strange as well; they can of course represent all the countless people that
have died in the war and are now weighing heavily on Sheps mind.

Stuff that has been said a million times before (maybe a bit less but you get the point)



then we get the fatalistic talks right before the conduit absolutely no one
really thinks they can make it and even Shepard sounds less than convinced that
they will win. and lo and behold right before we get to the conduit we get blown
up. harbinger flies off and Shep gets up. we hear on the radio that everyone
has been wiped out and the entire force is decimated. but Shep defies the odds
and gets up with a busted up armor and helmet blown off but miraculously his
face is still intact (except for some bruising).

he then has to face down our greatest defender of hope
Marauder Shields the hero we need. but there are some things to note about the environment
that are either sloppy texturing or deliberate sloppy texturing. the piles of
corpses all wear Phoenix armor and have shaved heads like dolls. the
surroundings are very blurry and the trees seem similar to the ones we see in
the dreams (this does not prove anything by and of itself but it can be a
visual clue as to the reality of the situation).

on a low EMS we can see the squad mates we took with us
lying dead on the ground but on a higher EMS this is not the case (this can
imply that with higher EMS comes better prepared squad mates or with higher EMS
you have a better morale). we walk up and into the beam and suddenly we are in
a part of the citadel no one has been before.

we stand in a hall of corpses and keepers (the keepers are
perhaps harvesting the corpses or appear to be groping the bodies). and we hear
Anderson somehow the mere fact that somehow your radio has survived the blast
and we don't even see an Omni tool is strange to say the least. Anderson remarks
on how he got in behind Shepard and is in some corridor with corpses  that somehow reminds him of Shepard's
description of the collector base.  Shepard
agrees with this for some reason even when we can clearly see that is not the
case (but all right let's roll with it and say this is just bad level design).

we don't see Shepard interacting with either his ear or his
arm (what we see him do throughout the game when he tries to contact someone)
but somehow Anderson can hear him. he then asks if you are all right and again
we see the paragon option is i feel like death and the renegade option is not
entirely happy either.  

Anderson asks if they are making a reaper here and Shepard
agrees. then Anderson says the tubes don't go on forever. we can see some tubes
hanging around  but it is a strange
comment to make. all of it alludes to the end of mass effect 2 when we get to fight
the terminator. which is interesting in and of itself. then Anderson says wow
(ala matrix) one of the walls here just realigned itself, the place is shifting  (this can either mean nothing at all or it
can be a callback to the strange things the scientists on the dead reaper were
seeing)

Shepard hobbles on over the chasm and Anderson remarks on
how he sees something in front of him Shepard says don't get to far ahead of
me. the chasm uses the floor texture of the shadow broker base from the DLC in
mass effect 2 and on either side we see the walls changing and we see and hear
a lot of sparks around. even more strikingly we see the antennae from the ship
on either side of the ramp upwards with the 1m1 on them.

he then sees Anderson hunched over the console and turning
around strangely whilst TIM appears behind Shepard seemingly out of nowhere. we
then see those strange black oily things on the sides of the screen whilst TIM
starts rambling away about the almighty control option. then Anderson grunts
and says they're controlling you (whilst looking directly at the player not Shepard
and not TIM).

you can then talk TIM into killing himself or you can try
the renegade interrupt (if you didn't have that option). we then possibly see Anderson
saying goodbye to Shepard and when he is dead suddenly Shepard touches his
chest to find blood on the exact point where he shot Anderson.

 we then hear Hackett
somehow aware of Shepard's presence on the citadel say to him that the crucible
isn't firing and as Shep tries to reach to console he blacks out. then he gets
uplifted by a magical space elevator to the most godly of godly spacebrat. on
low EMS he says "What are you doing here ?" on high EMS he says "wake
up" (strangely whilst Shep is clearly already awake at that point (this
can of course be explained as horrible animation/story correlation but does not
have to be)).

on low EMS the spacebrat is dismissive and Shep readily
gives in to the options presented by the kid.on higher EMS the third option
becomes available and on the 4000/5000 EMS threshold the destroy option has a
clip of Shepard inhaling under a pile of rubble and Shepard is less convinced
of the choices. seeing a post on Reddit referring to the degree in psychology
that Mac Walters apparently has I kind of find this whole ending curious to say
the least.

everything at this point has been chewed up and regurgitated
many times on the interwebs but I have yet to hear a possible explanation as to
why we hear both Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale on the background when the spacebrat
speaks. the only viable reason as to why is something about Shep's
own consciousness working against him and trying to influence him. the video
that comes closest to what my interpretation is
(also tl;dr)  www.youtube.com/watch

MIND DROPPINGS


Some thoughts about the part that came before it are also
noteworthy the scene originally refers back to the ending of Mass Effect 2 this
helps both the player get into the mindset of an/the ending and also refers to the
terminator/reaper baby. What it could also refer to is Cerberus
base were we find the remains of that reaper. And the walk up to TIM's room is
very similar to the ramp up to the console. Also the room around the console
looks very much like TIM's room even coinciding with the battle outside (or the
lights from the apparently still alive people on the citadel). this is not just
coincidence in my opinion this is very clever level design implying that all of
it is fabricated from Shepard's memories.

also  I would like to
note something very compelling (IMO).when we approach the thought of shepard as
an avatar of the player we can also see the idea were we (the player) are
representative of the willpower that shepard has. we make Shep's choices we
choose the people he talks to the things he says and we kick alien ass by the
pounds. in Mass Effect 1 we have the most control over shepard it gets a bit
tedious at times but we are in full control. in Mass Effect 2 many people
complained that they had less control the RPG elements were reduced Shep
sometimes talks more than one sentence after picking an option and in general
we have less RPG and more pew pew.  finally
in Mass Effect 3 Shep talks even more and we have a hell of a lot less choice in how we
react to things.

what this shows is that we the player get less and less
control and sheps resolve gets worse and worse it's as if Shep is starting to
get separated from the player this coincides with shepard loosing hope in winning this war in the game. our characters somehow all develop PTSD and get
those dreams and when we get to our last choices in the game we have only two
dialogue options and then of course the pick-your-color-magical-rainbow-space-
magic-of-genocidal-doom-choice. what does this leave the player with ? 



we feel betrayed "this isn't how my shep would
react", "this is Bullsh*t", "we want a different
ending" "this is an OUTRAGE !!", "I can't play anymore
nothing matters with this ending" and "where are the shifty looking
space cows ?" so my interpretation is this : it's all a big **** mindf*ck
of epic proportions getting from a game with absolute control and choices to
having three ****ty choices. it's meant to affect the player we see character
growth in Shep's because he becomes more of an individual not a schyzo like we
could play him before, but with that comes loss of control, he gets emotional he
says more than you direct him to.

now of course this ending could also be simple
**** going horribly wrong and backfiring on the evil EA and their poor slaves
at Bioware (or Bioware is just as evil ) I get that and sometimes feel that
same way. but it's fun to speculate and I feel like there is more to it than
people care to admit also what is the ultimate loss of control in Mass Effect:
INDOCTRINATION. for anyone who has made it this far you are awesome for reading my ramblings and please discuss.

Well as far as the delusions, they aren't PTSD, they are the product of indoctrination. Read the codex entry in the game on it, it will explain a lot

i know read on dear reader i was originaly going to reply to someone who claimed that was the case and yes i do tend to ramble a bit.