57139 réponses à ce sujet

[thePredator50]

So... I went to sleep at page 30 and now I'm back, any new revelations?

[Phydeaux314]

Couple decent arguments against, some rebuttals to those arguments, and a lot of data in favor.

It's an ad hoc solution, but it IS one that fits the available data and prior trends in game quality.

[Turtlicious]

Check PAge one, I'm working with Byne to keep a comprehensive list.

Also, on the run down the ramp, your squad mates disappear and Anderson get's pwnt by a laser.

[Ellestor]

thePredator50 wrote...

So... I went to sleep at page 30 and now I'm back, any new revelations?

Turtlicious pointed out that halfway through the run toward Harbinger, your squadmates disappear and you're surrounded by faceless soldiers. Not sure what to make of it.

[SomeBug]

Turtlicious wrote...

recap:

Thought on the ending:

1. The endgame scenario is Indoctrination/Manipulation from the Reapers (Harbinger) trying to force you into choosing to let the Reapers live. Shepard is not awake during the final sceens!

2. Choosing to control the Reapers allows them to live. Reapers win. They will still exist.

3. Choosing to combine organic and synthetic life: Reapers win. They will still exist.

4. Choosing to destroy all synthetic life: Reapers loose. Shepard lives. Reapers die.

5. Choosing to destroy all synthetic life option is more Renegade in appearence. Controlling the Reapers is more Paragon in appearence. The Illusive Man's choice should not be Paragon colors, just as Anderson's choice should not be Renegade.

6. Shepard awakes at the end of destroying Reapers. But Shepard is not awaking from the aftermath. He is awaking from either after he is hit by Harbingers lazer attack on Earth or after the scene with Anderson and the Illusive Man.

7. Stating that all sythetic life will be destroyed will give you pause; destroying the Geth can force you to a different conclusion. This choice exists for the illusion of choice; the other choices are ment to sound better.

8. Shepard does not awake in the other 2 "endings" because you are fully indoctrinated by the choices you made to allow the Reapers to win. "Assuming Control!"

9. Never trust any child construct, be it a ghost or artificial intelligence, or heck even human. They are just creepy.

10. Shepard awakes at the end because he has broken hold of the Reaper's control.

11. Shepard has spent alot of time around Reapers. Soveriegn, various Reaper artifacts, the Human Reaper, 2 Reaper destroyers, the Artifact from "The Arrival." Its foolish to assume there is not some level of indoctrination.

12. Bioware not only get more $$$ for DLC for the final battle, but big props for INDOCTRINATING A LOT OF ITS OWN PLAYERS! I do not know of another gaming company that has tried to fool all of its consumers, but they look to be the first and reap all of the attention.

13. Look at these screenshots. I believe the 1m1 is a clue, because of how often it shows up, and how human it is, when the ship is supposedly older then the ancients.

14. Definitions:


Catalyst =1. Chemistry A substance, usually
used in small amounts relative to the reactants, that modifies and
increases the rate of a reaction without being consumed in the process.2. One that precipitates a process or event, especially without being involved in or changed by the consequences[/color][color="#333333"]
Addition information compiled from community and written by:

Crucible=
1. A vessel made of a refractory substance
such as graphite or porcelain, used for melting and calcining materials
at high temperatures.2. A severe test, as of patience or belief; a trial. See Synonyms at trial.3. A place, time, or situation characterized by the confluence of powerful intellectual, social, economic, or political forces:

15. Shepard is not wearing his armor when he wakes up in the Citadel, implying that this is a dream.


Kitten Tactics:

-The endgame scenario is Indoctrination/Manipulation from the Reapers
(Harbinger) trying to force you into choosing to let the Reapers live.
Shepard is not awake during the final scenes.

-Choosing Control - You can not control them, they control you. Shepard says as much to the Illusive Man moments earlier.

-Choosing
Synthesis - Allows everyone in the galaxy to be manipulated by Reaper
code, like they have done to the Geth multiple times now.

-Choosing Destroy - Breaks the hold the reapers have on Shepard's mind.

-Choosing
to destroy all synthetic life option is more Renegade in appearence.
Controlling the Reapers is more Paragon in appearence. The Illusive
Man's choice should not be Paragon colors, just as Anderson's choice
should not be Renegade. The reapers are saying that Destroy is the
worst, Control is worse, and Synthesis is the best. They want you to
fail.

-Stating that all sythetic life will be destroyed will
give you pause; destroying the Geth can force you to a different
conclusion. This choice exists for the illusion of choice; the other
choices are ment to sound better.

-Shepard wakes up after
Destroy, because the Reaper's hold is diminished. Shepard does not
awake in the other 2 "endings" because you are fully indoctrinated by
the choices you made to allow the Reapers to win. "Assuming Control!"

-The
child does not actually exist. He is an attempt to indoctrinate
Shepard. Nobody but Shepard ever sees or interacts with the child.

-When
Anderson calls for Shepard at the beginning of the game, when Shepard
is talking to the child, Shepard turns back and the child is gone.
Shepard has been "snapped out of it".

-When Shepard turns towards
Anderson after being "snapped out of it", a growl is heard. In the
third novel, when Greyson resisted the reapers they would make a
growling noise once they realized they didn't have him under complete
control.

-During Shepard's final dream with the child, chatter
can be heard over the radio about nobody making it to the beam. Shepard
is still in London.

-When Shepard catches the child in the final
dream, they are both engulfed in flame. Going with the child (the
reapers) means Shepard's destruction.

-Shepard has spent alot of
time around Reapers. Soveriegn, various Reaper artifacts, the Human
Reaper, 2 Reaper destroyers, the Artifact from "The Arrival." Its
foolish to assume there is not some level of indoctrination.

-When Shepard wakes up at the end of Destroy, he/she is waking up in London, after being hit with the laser.

Never going to happen. But a good attempt.

[GBGriffin]

Phydeaux314 wrote...

Couple decent arguments against, some rebuttals to those arguments, and a lot of data in favor.

It's an ad hoc solution, but it IS one that fits the available data and prior trends in game quality.

Heh, just thought I'd check back for updates. The end dialogue on the data pad after the epilogue (where you hit A and it mentions defeating the Reaper threat and such) has me a little worried, but really, I still like this theory.

At the very worst, it's still worth holding on to  for good headcanon

[Phydeaux314]

I dunno. It probably won't. But if it does... it would be the single most amazing stunt in the history of video games, ever.

[thePredator50]

The last bit of concrete evidence I know was the growling sound that's heard when Shepard turns away from the child at the start.

Anyhow, I want to bring up this one more time -

At 6:17, the soldiers fight what almost look like Geth... or is it just a Cannibal from a very funny angle?

[thePredator50]

GBGriffin wrote...

Phydeaux314 wrote...

Couple decent arguments against, some rebuttals to those arguments, and a lot of data in favor.

It's an ad hoc solution, but it IS one that fits the available data and prior trends in game quality.

Heh, just thought I'd check back for updates. The end dialogue on the data pad after the epilogue (where you hit A and it mentions defeating the Reaper threat and such) has me a little worried, but really, I still like this theory.

At the very worst, it's still worth holding on to  for good headcanon

"End dialogue on the data pad"?


EDIT: DAMN IT, double post. Sorry...

Modifié par thePredator50, 11 mars 2012 - 12:02 .

[GBGriffin]

thePredator50 wrote...



"End dialogue on the data pad"?

When you beat the game and it tells you on the green data pad that Shepard has now become a legend for defeating the Reaper threat, but you should look forward to DLC or something.

When you hit A, it brings you back to the main menu, I believe.

Modifié par GBGriffin, 11 mars 2012 - 12:03 .

[Deklan_Caine]

I have a couple of observations to contribute to the theory that it doesn't seem like others have caught (apologies if someone else caught these already and I missed it...):

1) As soon as Shepherd "wakes up" after being blasted by the Reaper laser, he's limping. If, as you're playing, you try to look/aim down at Shep's feet, you can't. The view angle get's blocked so that you can't see below his/her knees. If you watch the pace of the legs moving, though, it becomes really obvious that Shepherd is moving considerably faster than he is actually walking, almost floating as it were. At first when I noticed this in the my second play-though I just figured it was designed that way because making Shepherds speed the same as his walk would make the last moments in the game take 3 times longer (and it already seemed to take forever). But if we're rolling with the hallucination/indoctrination theory, then the fact that he's practically floating on his feet just adds more fuel to the fire...

2) When the "Catalyst" child starts listing the three options, he goes out of his way to make destruction sound like a terrible idea. "If you do this you'll kill all the Geth you've helped, not to mention that your kids will just make more robots farther down the road and nothing will really be solved." The kid also very pointedly avoids claiming that Shepard will die outright if he chooses that option, merely dropping a hint that Shep "might" die. Shepard also expresses doubts in the child's judgment by saying "Maybe." This is in direct contrast with the other two options (control and synthesis), where the kid goes out of his way to make them sound much more appealing, says clearly that either option will kill Shepard, and Shepard expresses zero doubts about either of the propositions. Then there's the fact that, all of the sudden, a character (Anderson) that would typically be associated with the paragon color (blue) is represented by the renegade color (red/orange), and the Illusive Man, the embodiment of pure renegade, is given the paragon color. Everything about the scene is slanted to make the most obvious choice (destroy the Reapers) the least appealing, and turns the rest of the game (and the previous 2 games) on it's head. Not 30 seconds ago back by the console TIM was obviously the clear-cut indoctrinated villain (shooting Anderson) , but now the god-kid tries to snooker Shep into believing TIM was a tragic hero who would do the right thing. On the other hand, Anderson, who was making a heroic stand with Shep against the villainous Illusive Man, gets relegated to the role of murdering maniac who would choose the "bad" option and blow the Reapers to kingdom come. If that's not a clear attempt to indoctrinate Shepard, what is?

The line Harbinger repeated over and over in ME2 was that the Reapers would be "your salvation through destruction." Well, the synthesis and control options are literally salvation for the galaxy through Shep's destruction, buying into a compliance mindset. The only option that leaves Shep breathing is to destroy the Reapers, which has been the point since ME1. All the evidence points to the last sequence being a battle for Shepards mind that is only won when Shep chooses the path that the god-kid tries to convince him not to take.

What we then see (when we choose the RIGHT option) is Shepard waking up from the nightmare after having beaten the Reapers' last ditch attempt to stop him within his own mind. The fact that the god-kid just looks like a ghost version of the exact kid that has been haunting Shep's dreams since the beginning of the game makes it seem all the more plausible. I, for one, will assume that since Shep wakes up, victory is assured: he beams to the Citadel, blows away TIM with a REAL gun, punches the button on the console, and watches the Crucible-powered Citadel wipe the Reapers off the galactic map just like it was supposed to do.

[Ellestor]

thePredator50 wrote...

The last bit of concrete evidence I know was the growling sound that's heard when Shepard turns away from the child at the start.

Anyhow, I want to bring up this one more time -

At 6:17, the soldiers fight what almost look like Geth... or is it just a Cannibal from a very funny angle?

I can see how you might think it's a Prime, but you can see the Cannibal lumps on its back.

[Goddy10]

Deklan_Caine wrote...

I have a couple of observations to contribute to the theory that it doesn't seem like others have caught (apologies if someone else caught these already and I missed it...):

1) As soon as Shepherd "wakes up" after being blasted by the Reaper laser, he's limping. If, as you're playing, you try to look/aim down at Shep's feet, you can't. The view angle get's blocked so that you can't see below his/her knees. If you watch the pace of the legs moving, though, it becomes really obvious that Shepherd is moving considerably faster than he is actually walking, almost floating as it were. At first when I noticed this in the my second play-though I just figured it was designed that way because making Shepherds speed the same as his walk would make the last moments in the game take 3 times longer (and it already seemed to take forever). But if we're rolling with the hallucination/indoctrination theory, then the fact that he's practically floating on his feet just adds more fuel to the fire...

2) When the "Catalyst" child starts listing the three options, he goes out of his way to make destruction sound like a terrible idea. "If you do this you'll kill all the Geth you've helped, not to mention that your kids will just make more robots farther down the road and nothing will really be solved." The kid also very pointedly avoids claiming that Shepard will die outright if he chooses that option, merely dropping a hint that Shep "might" die. Shepard also expresses doubts in the child's judgment by saying "Maybe." This is in direct contrast with the other two options (control and synthesis), where the kid goes out of his way to make them sound much more appealing, says clearly that either option will kill Shepard, and Shepard expresses zero doubts about either of the propositions. Then there's the fact that, all of the sudden, a character (Anderson) that would typically be associated with the paragon color (blue) is represented by the renegade color (red/orange), and the Illusive Man, the embodiment of pure renegade, is given the paragon color. Everything about the scene is slanted to make the most obvious choice (destroy the Reapers) the least appealing, and turns the rest of the game (and the previous 2 games) on it's head. Not 30 seconds ago back by the console TIM was obviously the clear-cut indoctrinated villain (shooting Anderson) , but now the god-kid tries to snooker Shep into believing TIM was a tragic hero who would do the right thing. On the other hand, Anderson, who was making a heroic stand with Shep against the villainous Illusive Man, gets relegated to the role of murdering maniac who would choose the "bad" option and blow the Reapers to kingdom come. If that's not a clear attempt to indoctrinate Shepard, what is?

The line Harbinger repeated over and over in ME2 was that the Reapers would be "your salvation through destruction." Well, the synthesis and control options are literally salvation for the galaxy through Shep's destruction, buying into a compliance mindset. The only option that leaves Shep breathing is to destroy the Reapers, which has been the point since ME1. All the evidence points to the last sequence being a battle for Shepards mind that is only won when Shep chooses the path that the god-kid tries to convince him not to take.

What we then see (when we choose the RIGHT option) is Shepard waking up from the nightmare after having beaten the Reapers' last ditch attempt to stop him within his own mind. The fact that the god-kid just looks like a ghost version of the exact kid that has been haunting Shep's dreams since the beginning of the game makes it seem all the more plausible. I, for one, will assume that since Shep wakes up, victory is assured: he beams to the Citadel, blows away TIM with a REAL gun, punches the button on the console, and watches the Crucible-powered Citadel wipe the Reapers off the galactic map just like it was supposed to do.

Nailed it. There's literally no other reason why the God Kid would look anything like the kid from Sheps nightmares. It was done on purpose.

[Turtlicious]

Deklan_Caine wrote...

I have a couple of observations to contribute to the theory that it doesn't seem like others have caught (apologies if someone else caught these already and I missed it...):

1) As soon as Shepherd "wakes up" after being blasted by the Reaper laser, he's limping. If, as you're playing, you try to look/aim down at Shep's feet, you can't. The view angle get's blocked so that you can't see below his/her knees. If you watch the pace of the legs moving, though, it becomes really obvious that Shepherd is moving considerably faster than he is actually walking, almost floating as it were. At first when I noticed this in the my second play-though I just figured it was designed that way because making Shepherds speed the same as his walk would make the last moments in the game take 3 times longer (and it already seemed to take forever). But if we're rolling with the hallucination/indoctrination theory, then the fact that he's practically floating on his feet just adds more fuel to the fire...

2) The line Harbinger repeated over and over in ME2 was that the Reapers would be "your salvation through destruction." Well, the synthesis and control options are literally salvation for the galaxy through Shep's destruction, buying into a compliance mindset. The only option that leaves Shep breathing is to destroy the Reapers, which has been the point since ME1. All the evidence points to the last sequence being a battle for Shepards mind that is only won when Shep chooses the path that the god-kid tries to convince him not to take.

What we then see (when we choose the RIGHT option) is Shepard waking up from the nightmare after having beaten the Reapers' last ditch attempt to stop him within his own mind. The fact that the god-kid just looks like a ghost version of the exact kid that has been haunting Shep's dreams since the beginning of the game makes it seem all the more plausible. I, for one, will assume that since Shep wakes up, victory is assured: he beams to the Citadel, blows away TIM with a REAL gun, punches the button on the console, and watches the Crucible-powered Citadel wipe the Reapers off the galactic map just like it was supposed to do.

I'm gonna PM this to Byne with your name on it.

[SomeBug]

Counterpoint: Anyone who has seen the movie Contact understands that the God-child could easily be the Catalysts attempt to make its image more accessible to Shepard.

[Phydeaux314]

Point granted. But why a child that's been haunting Shepard's nightmares? Why not "a face you are familiar with" - like, say, perhaps that of your LI?

[Lugaidster]

BTW, this is the ending that leads us to believe what we believe:

I wonder though, is there any other possible explanation?

[Ellestor]

SomeBug wrote...

Counterpoint: Anyone who has seen the movie Contact understands that the God-child could easily be the Catalysts attempt to make its image more accessible to Shepard.

Though it's pretty dubious for it to choose the embodiment of Shepard's anxiety about Earth.

Lugaidster wrote...

BTW, this is the ending that leads us to believe what we believe:

I wonder though, is there any other possible explanation?

 I don't know how to explain it without invoking a hallucination, but I can think of another reason that the Destroy option is the one that leads to it.

Modifié par Ellestor, 11 mars 2012 - 12:17 .

[Gowienczyk]

3. Choosing to combine organic and synthetic life: Reapers win. They will still exist.

I find this to be what happened to the protheans; or alludes to the "merge" with the reaper construct and become what the collectors were.

[lex0r11]

Phydeaux314 wrote...

Point granted. But why a child that's been haunting Shepard's nightmares? Why not "a face you are familiar with" - like, say, perhaps that of your LI?

that could maybe give away that it is an attempt to manipulate him. he doesn't know dead vent-boy, but he is familiar enough.

[thePredator50]

Well, one more thing that no one seems to question that gives credibility to this - just HOW did TIM get up to the Citadel in the first place?

Also, in the artbook that comes with the collector's edition, you can find this:

http://i.imgur.com/DA3ic.jpg

With the text:

"This is what the final room
might have looked like
if Shepard fought him in
this space. The concept is
meant to show the moment
right before the confrontation,
during which Shepard
is walking past the bodies of
the last of the Illusive Man’s
Cerberus troops."

Given that previously it describes TIM's room where you fight Leng, I think that is supposed to represent the corridor leading up to that, in the Cerberus base...

Furthermore, there's an image of a grotesquely deformed TIM, clearly "Sarenified", with the text

One of the plans on the drawing board
was to have the Illusive Man turn into
a Reaper creature for the final battle.
Eventually, this plan was scrapped,
since we wanted to give players the
satisfaction of fighting a character they
know rather than a random creature.
The design implies that the Illusive
Man’s weapon is his intelligence, not
his physical strength.

When exactly do we FIGHT TIM at all?

[Goddy10]

Taken from the Indoctrination codex:

"As time passes, they have feelings of being watched and hallucinations of "Ghostly" presences."

"Manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind."

Someone please explain to me how the God kid DOESN'T fit this description perfectly.

[joe1852]

they chose these endings so bioware can make a new trilogy set thousands of years in the future, there are no hidden messages.

[Lugaidster]

Goddy10 wrote...


Taken from the Indoctrination codex:

"As time passes, they have feelings of being watched and hallucinations of "Ghostly" presences."

"Manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind."

Someone please explain to me how the God kid DOESN'T fit this description perfectly.

Multiply that by two when you consider the nightmares.

[death2sarge]

Bioware could of given us this ending simply because they ran out of time to complete the real endings. That would fit with the "dream" endings