57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Hacedor1566]

Wait a second. If you choose destruction, all tech is simply destroyed... Then... All the fleets are completly destroyed, just like comm devices... And the Normandy... Why it survives? It should just blow up... Don't you think?

And, if you choose "control", Why EDI is not there? Is she a Reaper or something?

[JTP117]

Indigo Arcangel wrote...

Thought I'd just leave this here:

https://docs.google....?pli=1&sle=true

This is an excellent summary of the points along with some I had never noticed, well done

[byne]

The more I replay ME3, the less I understand why Bioware would choose to not explain anything in the ending, unless it was a hallucination.

I mean, Cortez just told me to relax he'd turn of his auditory emulators and watch ships fly by in silence.

Bioware really chose to explain why we can hear ships in space, which is something that is just generally accepted as the norm in any space related series, and no one ever really questioned, but didnt choose to explain a single thing about Space Magic and Godchild?

Hard to believe they'd go out of their way to explain even the smallest things, then just explain nothing in the last 10 minutes.

Also, and this isnt really relevant, but Padok Wiks, the salarian who replaces Mordin on the Normandy if you let Mordin die in ME2, is pretty awesome.

Definitely worth letting Mordin die in at least one of your ME2 games just to see Padok Wiks' face while he imagines what krogan sex would look like.

Modifié par byne, 20 mars 2012 - 12:55 .

[Indigo Arcangel]

JTP117 wrote...

Indigo Arcangel wrote...

Thought I'd just leave this here:

https://docs.google....?pli=1&sle=true

This is an excellent summary of the points along with some I had never noticed, well done

Just saying, it's not mine, it came from this - http://www.destructo...ng-224120.phtml

[JTP117]

byne wrote...

The more I replay ME3, the less I understand why Bioware would choose to not explain anything in the ending, unless it was a hallucination.

I mean, Cortez just told me to relax he'd turn of his auditory emulators and watch ships fly by in silence.

Bioware really chose to explain why we can hear ships in space, which is something that is just generally accepted as the norm in any space related series, and no one ever really questioned, but didnt choose to explain a single thing about Space Magic and Godchild?

Hard to believe they'd go out of their way to explain even the smallest things, then just explain nothing in the last 10 minutes.

A very good point. I never even noticed that dialogue with Cortez. That level of detail on such a minute topic shows the didication Bioware has to this series. I seriously doubt that they would let all that work fall apart in the grand finale of one of their best games.

[RorickHuon]

Elp wrote...

Either.Ardrey wrote...

Elp wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Elp wrote...

 I think the biggest problem with Indoctrination Theory is the fact that is doesn't explain why there was a cutscene of the Crucible fireing and showing what happened to the galaxy.If the entire ending is just Sheppard fighting indoctrination, and none of it had any real effect, the Crucible wouldn't have fired. 

You could say the fireing of the Crucible was also a hallucination. But whose hallucination would that be? It certainly isn't shown from the Sheppard perspective.
Also, if you succesfully fight the indoctrination by chosing the Destroy option, the indoctrination ends so there shouldn't be anymore hallucinations. Yet, you still see the Crucible fireing. According to the InDoc Theory, that shouldn't have happened. Which means that the Crucible fireing cannot be a hallucination. It actually fired. If the Crucible fired, it means Sheppard was successfull in fireing it.

Another problem with the Indoctrination Theory is the Stargazer scene. Apparently humanity survived (with advanced space flight capability), that can only be if the Reapers were stopped. This is a second indication that the Crucible was actually used.

I do believe there was some kind of 'hallucination', but it's purpose wasn't to deceive Sheppard and it didn't start when Sheppard was hit by the laser beam. I want to believe that Sheppard passed out on the elevator platform near the control panel and the Child detects this. The Child knows the cycle is no longer a valid Solution because over the years the Organics keep getting closer to completing the Crucible and now they have succeeded. The Child interfaces with the mind of the unconscious Sheppard in order to give him The Choice. This isn't that farfetched when you consider that InDoc works in a similar fashion and apparently the much less advanced Geth have similar technology. 

The symbolism used in The Choice scene shows that this part is NOT real. The Destroy option is triggered by shooting a conduit, that doesn't make any sense from an engineering/mechanical perspective. However, it does make sense when you see the gun as a symbol for destruction. It also explains the Child itself, the Catalyst has entered Sheppard's mind and has chosen a familiar form to represent itself (cliché, I know).
Although the appearance of The Choice isn't real, The Choice itself is and it's effects are. The Crucible fires, Sheppard dies unless he choses the Destroy options, etc. etc. 


It's still a very poor ending, and offers no incentive at all to re-play either ME3 or its predecessors, but to me it's the only way for it to make sense. It's somewhat of a hybrid theory between InDoc Theory, and the uhm.. 'Everything was real' theory. 

The indoctrination theory holds that Shepard's indoctrination only ends AFTER he wakes up in the breath scene. So this is actually after the Crucible supposedly fires. The indoctrination theory never states that Shepard fails to activate the Crucible or stop the Reapers, it states that we just haven't seen it happen yet.

But that can't be. The  hallucination supposedly starts when Sheppard is knocked out by the giant laser beam, he isn't even near the Crucible at that time. So he somehow fired the Crucible while indoctrinated while not even making it to the transporter beam? That doesn't make sense.

Either he truelly made it  to the Citadel and there was no hallucination, or he was knocked out by the giant laser beam and started hallucinating the ending. In that case, there no way he could have fired the Crucible.

I think you might have misunderstood what he/she was trying to say. What the theory is actually trying to say is that the Crucible firing, Mass Relays doing weird stuff, Reapers fleeing or dying, Normandy fleeing with teleported squadmates, etc, up until the ShepAlive clip, is Shepard visualizing his wish for his squadmates safety and survival, so that he can justify his decision, so to speak.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Darn it. At least I hope I explained it a bit more thoroughly.

Hm. But the theory implies that the hallucinations are Indoctrination induced and that they are some sort of representation of the battle for the mind of Sheppard. Green / Blue means you lose, Red means you beat the Reaper InDoc and wake up. What i don't understand is: when you pick the Red ending, you supposedly keep on hallucinating (untill you wake up).

Basically the theory says the choice scene (and TIM scene) is a representation of fighting Indoctrination, but when you pick the Destroy option the theory states that the Indoctrination is broken, right? So the Crucible fireing is nothing more than a pure dream and in essence has nothing to do with Indoctrination, since at that point Sheppard has already defeated InDoc by picking Destroy?

I guess that could have happened, in order to justify his choice like you said. I really don't like the 'dream' solution to such 'plot holes' though. It feels cheap and easy, from a writing perspective. I can only hope BioWare has something magnificent in store for us, because the ending sucks whether it's a dream or not.

I Guess you can say that Shepard didn't wake up right away after choosing destroy was because his mind had to process the regaining of hope in order to finally break out of the control of Harbinger. Seeing his close sqaudmates (especially the ones he takes with him say "I wouldn't want anyone else by my side.") alive on this new planet means life can arise and start anew. Thus breaking him out of the "dream". That my input to this theory  -edit-

Modifié par RorickHuon, 20 mars 2012 - 01:05 .

[MysticFred]

Rifneno wrote...

MysticFred wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

I think I already said this, but if the kid really was real and somebody wanted to find him. Why would they say "Last seen on Earth?" Why not "Last seen in Vancouver?" Last seen on Earth is ridiculously vague... yeah... someone is going to find him looking all over Earth..

That may be because it's in the Citadel. I don't think many residents would know where "Vancouver" is. Now, Earth? Probably 99% of them know where it is.

Does it matter?  People from Palaven haven't seen the kid, so what does it matter if they know where Vancouver is?

Don't really care honestly, just wanted to share why I think it says Last seen on Earth and not Vancouver. 

Modifié par MysticFred, 20 mars 2012 - 01:00 .

[JTP117]

npoqrhgcnpouheprouhncpo wrote...

jakal66 wrote...

npoqrhgcnpouheprouhncpo wrote...

My friends the only Ending is the OLD MAN telling US children to BUY DLC if we want to play more Adventures of THE Shepard, from before he/she died selecting his/her favorite Color Choice.
THE END

The only Hallucination is the acid trip Bioware developers had when they wrote this ending.

see these kind of posts are useless man

but so very true

You have every right to disgree with us, just bring some evidence to the table besides "because i said so"

[ArkkAngel007]

DCYNIGR8 wrote...

Lemonite wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

GriffinXP wrote...

Wait.  Wasn't almost everything from the From Ashes DLC a part of the original game?  I seem to remember that the leaked script had Javik in it.

No, Javik was shipped with ME3, the rest of it wasn't. Bioware stated that shipping the character himself made implementation a lot easier. Typically Bioware starts programming their first DLC after the game has shipped, before the game has been released. That's why we see a fairly rapid release of their first DLC whenever they make a new game nowadays.

Javik seems pretty integrated into the game to be a post-production created character... <_<

Agreed. Did Priority Sur'kesh last night and both Wrex and Kirahee comment on Javik's presence. None of the other post release DLC characters got that level of integration. Javik even has talks over the coms with other squad mates and even moves around the ship, Kaidan/Ash didn't even do that. And that's not mentioning Thessia and the Liara/Javik confrontation afterwards...

If they can go into that much detail on a 'post production' DLC charatcer, I see no reason why they can't do something about the endings.

I don't see why the Prothean continues to be discussed here but again:

Javik and the lines were developed during production due to develop constraints and conveniences.  The mission was developed post-primary development.

So it's a different situation, unfortunantly.

[ArkkAngel007]

Vox Doom wrote...

<- Crucible destroyed.

There's definitely something going on here.

If it's legit, I thank you for this.  I took it without question before, and felt that I should take a step back and see it before I ran with that in any fashion.

[IST]

Indoctrination Theory is the only direction that really requires no retconning of any type, this by itself is half of it's beauty.

The story can continue from the rubble of London's East End.. MP guys can get enhancements too.. a DLC to brighten everyone's day that doesn't make Bioware lose it's creative integrity by changing story material, only adding to it.

I for one will pay for DLC that does this, I know some wont.. but I will.. happily.

[ArkkAngel007]

Space magic, BioWare hires poor writers, and Kai Leng brand crunch are not valid counter-arguments, as the first two are baseless memes, and the last can only be reserved for after midnight.

Seriously though, if you wish to argue a point, or points, as I have, than bring an argument that holds up that is evidenced through the game itself or past instances of the franchise. PR of any sort is not proof for both supporters and doubters unless it is actual confirmation. It can be used to fuel speculation, but should not be a foundation pillar.

Btw Byne, I didn't make the connection between the auditory emulators and the actual sound of the ships. Thank you for that. The more you know...

[JTP117]

npoqrhgcnpouheprouhncpo wrote...

JTP117 wrote...

npoqrhgcnpouheprouhncpo wrote...

jakal66 wrote...

npoqrhgcnpouheprouhncpo wrote...

My friends the only Ending is the OLD MAN telling US children to BUY DLC if we want to play more Adventures of THE Shepard, from before he/she died selecting his/her favorite Color Choice.
THE END

The only Hallucination is the acid trip Bioware developers had when they wrote this ending.

see these kind of posts are useless man

but so very true

You have every right to disgree with us, just bring some evidence to the table besides "because i said so"

get out of this thread and read others too... you are in a bubble up here.

Was The old man and the boy part of this hallucination too?

http://social.biowar...index/9999272/1

http://social.biowar...ndex/10022779/1

As I'm sure it has been said on here before, Bioware has already stated that the "Final hours" segment is not necessarially related to the cannon of ME

as for the second thread, most of it appears to agree with us here that the ending was odd. We are just trying to devise a theory that brings clarity using basic logic. I fail to see why that is such a bad thing.

[byne]

npoqrhgcnpouheprouhncpo wrote...

JTP117 wrote...

npoqrhgcnpouheprouhncpo wrote...

jakal66 wrote...

npoqrhgcnpouheprouhncpo wrote...

My friends the only Ending is the OLD MAN telling US children to BUY DLC if we want to play more Adventures of THE Shepard, from before he/she died selecting his/her favorite Color Choice.
THE END

The only Hallucination is the acid trip Bioware developers had when they wrote this ending.

see these kind of posts are useless man

but so very true

You have every right to disgree with us, just bring some evidence to the table besides "because i said so"

get out of this thread and read others too... you are in a bubble up here.

Was The old man and the boy part of this hallucination too?

http://social.biowar...index/9999272/1

http://social.biowar...ndex/10022779/1

I dont see how the old man and the boy are relevant. For all we know they are just colonists on some random world in the future. Nothing ever actually shows they dont have space travel or anything. The old man even tells the boy he can go to space one day.

He also straight up says he'll tell the boy one more story about Shepard. I dont see why he'd tell the little boy 'So you see Shepard died. Wanna hear a story from a year prior to that?'

If he was going to tell the kid a story relating to anything before the ending, you'd think he'd do it before finishing the story.

[ArkkAngel007]

npoqrhgcnpouheprouhncpo wrote...

JTP117 wrote...

npoqrhgcnpouheprouhncpo wrote...

jakal66 wrote...

npoqrhgcnpouheprouhncpo wrote...

My friends the only Ending is the OLD MAN telling US children to BUY DLC if we want to play more Adventures of THE Shepard, from before he/she died selecting his/her favorite Color Choice.
THE END

The only Hallucination is the acid trip Bioware developers had when they wrote this ending.

see these kind of posts are useless man

but so very true

You have every right to disgree with us, just bring some evidence to the table besides "because i said so"

get out of this thread and read others too... you are in a bubble up here.

Was The old man and the boy part of this hallucination too?

http://social.biowar...index/9999272/1

http://social.biowar...ndex/10022779/1

They aren't.  No one said they are.  It's the epilogue to the story.  It doesn't discount IT.   Mostly it's a nod to the multiple play styles and choices that can be made.

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

BW needs to listen to this thread

[byne]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Space magic, BioWare hires poor writers, and Kai Leng brand crunch are not valid counter-arguments, as the first two are baseless memes, and the last can only be reserved for after midnight.

Seriously though, if you wish to argue a point, or points, as I have, than bring an argument that holds up that is evidenced through the game itself or past instances of the franchise. PR of any sort is not proof for both supporters and doubters unless it is actual confirmation. It can be used to fuel speculation, but should not be a foundation pillar.

Btw Byne, I didn't make the connection between the auditory emulators and the actual sound of the ships. Thank you for that. The more you know...

You didnt make the connection because hearing space ships in Sci-Fi is just something you take for granted.

Bioware didnt need to explain it, but they chose to, which doesnt fit well with the whole 'lets not explain the biggest parts of the game' endings we got.

[Swordknight]

Was I the only one who got major deja vu with the husk-wedged-in-a-door in London?  You know, the same exact thing that happened right before Shepard met the child? These are the only two instances of husks in doors that I recall.

[lilOphelia]

byne wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Space magic, BioWare hires poor writers, and Kai Leng brand crunch are not valid counter-arguments, as the first two are baseless memes, and the last can only be reserved for after midnight.

Seriously though, if you wish to argue a point, or points, as I have, than bring an argument that holds up that is evidenced through the game itself or past instances of the franchise. PR of any sort is not proof for both supporters and doubters unless it is actual confirmation. It can be used to fuel speculation, but should not be a foundation pillar.

Btw Byne, I didn't make the connection between the auditory emulators and the actual sound of the ships. Thank you for that. The more you know...

You didnt make the connection because hearing space ships in Sci-Fi is just something you take for granted.

Bioware didnt need to explain it, but they chose to, which doesnt fit well with the whole 'lets not explain the biggest parts of the game' endings we got.

You do have to appreciate how they described hearing ships in space, though. Most sci-fi series of any kind just add the sounds in as though it were taking place on, say, the freeway. I can only think of one that doesn't use any space noises at all (Firefly/Serenity) .

As for not explaining... They aren't really explaining much of anything right now, sadly ~frownieface~ If they really are waiting until April, we have more time to sort of emergency induction ports instead of just grabbing at them.

[LadyWench]

I still strongly agree with the indoc theory evidence (which for the sake of how long this thread already is, I will not rehash here). Let me sum up my hopes thusly:

People are/were invested in ME3. Even (or maybe especially) those who LOVED the rest of the game, other than the last 10 minutes, as well as the first two in the series, agree it is because they have been fully engaged in the story and the characters because of the great writing so far.

So...Bioware suddenly forgot how to craft a well-rounded tale at the last second? Really? Why are we so convinced that the very story-telling skills that made us fall in love with the series could be so conspicuously absent at the most crucial moment?

I know there is the question of much influence EA has had over what was/was not included story and DLC-wise with the game release, but I keep hoping the playing coy thing is just a PR way to drum up suspense and hype before they lay down the rest of the game they were planning to release all along. If they try to charge us for it, that will make me sad, but it sounds like people might be willing to put up a reasonable price to come away from the series feeling satisfied.

I've been a Bioware fan for a looooong time and I just...can't believe that the end they first gave us is all there is. Hope is what makes us human, right?

[GraveNemesis393]

Its just like Shepard said in the very beginning of ME3, "We either fight, or we die!"

Hmm, Shepard stopped fighting at the end and gave into star child reason... so he died

[KujaTheDarkOne2]

byne wrote...

The more I replay ME3, the less I understand why Bioware would choose to not explain anything in the ending, unless it was a hallucination.

I mean, Cortez just told me to relax he'd turn of his auditory emulators and watch ships fly by in silence.

Bioware really chose to explain why we can hear ships in space, which is something that is just generally accepted as the norm in any space related series, and no one ever really questioned, but didnt choose to explain a single thing about Space Magic and Godchild?

Hard to believe they'd go out of their way to explain even the smallest things, then just explain nothing in the last 10 minutes.

Also, and this isnt really relevant, but Padok Wiks, the salarian who replaces Mordin on the Normandy if you let Mordin die in ME2, is pretty awesome.

Definitely worth letting Mordin die in at least one of your ME2 games just to see Padok Wiks' face while he imagines what krogan sex would look like.

Woah, I missed that line from Cortez. That's awesome.

My hope is that Bioware always did intend Indoctrination theory as an easy means to adding more to the end. But they also were perhaps not entirely sure what to add, and thus they are giving us time to voice our opinion so they know what to add to make the ending perfection. Fingers crossed, anyway. Believing they somehow actually thought these current endings would do is just too depressing.

OMG, that Youtube clip was amazing. Sorry Mordin, but you pretty much have to die now.

[darkcerb]

One of the biggest problems for me is the citadel having the power to shutdown without destroying the mass relays...did the reapers feel this wasn't fair? did they forget they could do it?