57139 réponses à ce sujet

[sjrskl]

how about this interpretation TIM is Shepard's ID his ideals they are twisted into wanting to help the reapers. Anderson represents the Super Ego or subconscious who is totally aware that you are being indoctrinated and is trying to explain to the Ego or the aware self what is happening represented by Shepard. also www.youtube.com/watch this is a great interpretation of the ending (an updated version of a previous video)

[Vahilor]

I think nobody is talking of complete indoctrination.... only Harbinger trying to indoctrinate Sheppard toally what he is able to when you don't chose "Destroy"

[Armalas85]

I am utterly confused about this, there is an ending with Shepard waking up after the choice is made?
Sorry I am a little late to the party here, how do you get that ending then?

[Vahilor]

Armalas85 wrote...

I am utterly confused about this, there is an ending with Shepard waking up after the choice is made?
Sorry I am a little late to the party here, how do you get that ending then?

You have to chose the "Destroy" ending and you need a pretty high War Asset... 5000+

[Ona Demonie]

Armalas85 wrote...

I am utterly confused about this, there is an ending with Shepard waking up after the choice is made?
Sorry I am a little late to the party here, how do you get that ending then?

-4k + Saving Anderson or 5K and your choice to save Anderson
-Pick Destroy
-Imported ME2 save or 2nd playthrough

[MrFob]

So I just replayed the ending.
I was very hopeful after watching the indoctrination theory video. It's a great video but it adds a lot of stuff that really makes you think this theory is true. However, the real thing is much more ambiguous. While I still think the theory is solid, it is hardly really supported in game. There are some parts of TIM's dialogue that don't really fit that well if he is just an incarnation of Shep's mind. Also, a lot of points like the whispers, the tentacles, the shifting walls, etc. could just be game design. The fact that the star child has male and female shep's voices in the background could just be an issue with the VO hours they had or some other logistical stuff. The fact that Shep "bleeds from Anderson's wound" could be coincidence since Shep already holds his hand there before he shoots Anderson or bleeds. The fact that Anderson is at the panels despite the fact that there is no other way then Shep's to get there could either be a design oversight (a minor one given all the other stuff) or attributed to the shifting surroundings (which in itself are not necessarily evidence either).
There is also the point that in the case that it is a reaper induced hallucination, what's the destruction of the mass relays all about? If they wanted to convince Shep, why not use that as further argument for their cause? E.g. the mass relays only get destroyed if Shep chooses destruction? It doesn't really fit IMO.

The only point that really makes me wonder is the tree-stumps around the conduit that appear after you've been hit. They are clearly a reference to the earlier dreams and indicate that something here is unreal.

In any case, IMO, the theory is solid and it is my favourite one at the moment. I really hope that was BWs intention or that they'll adapt it somehow but I am not really convinced that we are looking at some ingenious piece of writing here instead of complete crap. I'd of course love to be pleasantly surprised but I'll only believe it when I see it.

And in any case, we need a DLC one way or the other to wrap this up. In the end, I'd just like to thank the people who came up with this to give us desperate players who are looking for straws something to speculate about that goes beyond "how screwed are we now". Cheers for that.

Modifié par MrFob, 20 mars 2012 - 11:34 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Bama wrote...

Ok so, if the endings are in fact 'real' and to be taken at face value.. How does Shepard waking up make any contextual sense? I'm not buying that the citadel blows up and he somehow survives the whole thing and ends up in a pile of rubble. Is there any other explanation?

It reminds me of the Halo 3 legendary ending, which I'm sure everybody has at least seen. That at least made some sense. That was supposed to be the ending to the trilogy, but now there's a Halo 4 in the works. Is Bioware just leaving the door open for an ME4 down the road?

This is different from Halo 3 and for that matter Metroid Prime 3 ending, both of which you see a short glimpse of something new (A ship following Samus in Metroid Prime 3) just before it cuts away. But in both those cases the story of the trilogy is over, there are no (or few) loose ends and anything happening after the credits is just potential setup for new games.

This however is not an ending for the Trilogy (unless you take it face value in which case you would not be in this thread) as it leaves an enormous amounts of questions unanswered.

[sjrskl]

Armalas85 wrote...

I am utterly confused about this, there is an ending with Shepard waking up after the choice is made?
Sorry I am a little late to the party here, how do you get that ending then?

the only way to get that scene is to first have 4000 EMS that is the totall assets times the procentage of galactic readiness. you have to save anderson from being shot by TIM by either convincing him to shoot himself or by doing de renegade interrupt on time. then you have to choose the destroy ending. you can also get it when anderson is shot if you have an EMS of 5000.

[Vahilor]

@But the save Anderson Paragon part is only avaiable if you gave the right answers to the TIM in the whole third game.. to unlock the Paragon option, so the TMI shoots himself.
I don't know if the Renegade save option, shooting the illusive man works as well.

[Bama]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Bama wrote...

Ok so, if the endings are in fact 'real' and to be taken at face value.. How does Shepard waking up make any contextual sense? I'm not buying that the citadel blows up and he somehow survives the whole thing and ends up in a pile of rubble. Is there any other explanation?

It reminds me of the Halo 3 legendary ending, which I'm sure everybody has at least seen. That at least made some sense. That was supposed to be the ending to the trilogy, but now there's a Halo 4 in the works. Is Bioware just leaving the door open for an ME4 down the road?

This is different from Halo 3 and for that matter Metroid Prime 3 ending, both of which you see a short glimpse of something new (A ship following Samus in Metroid Prime 3) just before it cuts away. But in both those cases the story of the trilogy is over, there are no (or few) loose ends and anything happening after the credits is just potential setup for new games.

This however is not an ending for the Trilogy (unless you take it face value in which case you would not be in this thread) as it leaves an enormous amounts of questions unanswered.

Right but in both of those games, the final reveal is plausible. Even if you take the ending at face value (which I think is relevant to this topic since they're two sides of the same coin) the reveal at the end is that Shepard is alive beneath a pile of stoney rubble, which goes against the previous 15 minutes of action because both the location is different and the outcome (him/her CLEARLY sacrificing themselves).

Just interested what the argument is to how that COULD make sense.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Bama wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Bama wrote...

Ok so, if the endings are in fact 'real' and to be taken at face value.. How does Shepard waking up make any contextual sense? I'm not buying that the citadel blows up and he somehow survives the whole thing and ends up in a pile of rubble. Is there any other explanation?

It reminds me of the Halo 3 legendary ending, which I'm sure everybody has at least seen. That at least made some sense. That was supposed to be the ending to the trilogy, but now there's a Halo 4 in the works. Is Bioware just leaving the door open for an ME4 down the road?

This is different from Halo 3 and for that matter Metroid Prime 3 ending, both of which you see a short glimpse of something new (A ship following Samus in Metroid Prime 3) just before it cuts away. But in both those cases the story of the trilogy is over, there are no (or few) loose ends and anything happening after the credits is just potential setup for new games.

This however is not an ending for the Trilogy (unless you take it face value in which case you would not be in this thread) as it leaves an enormous amounts of questions unanswered.

Right but in both of those games, the final reveal is plausible. Even if you take the ending at face value (which I think is relevant to this topic since they're two sides of the same coin) the reveal at the end is that Shepard is alive beneath a pile of stoney rubble, which goes against the previous 15 minutes of action because both the location is different and the outcome (him/her CLEARLY sacrificing themselves).

Just interested what the argument is to how that COULD make sense.

Lets see...

If we take the ending at face value then Shepard beeing in the rubble would mean he survived the exploding Citadel (business as usual for any hero, really) then Orbital reentry without his helmet and then he was still alive after hitting the ground (considering he did not even survive that the first time, not really plausible)

Really the secret, Sheaprd survives ending makes no sense in the context of the ending we saw, simple as that.

[Red Starblazer]

Erethrian wrote...

Nice read.

https://docs.google....?pli=1&sle=true

This proves we were right. That or Bioware let Goerge Lucas right the ending..

[ChristopherShepard]

Does anyone recognized that if you choose the control option
(blue ending) the mass relays doesn't be destroyed? I saw this!
The Beam hits the relay but it doesn't exlopde!!

[MrFob]

Although, we don't know if that the rubble is in London, right? I mean, could be a part of the citadel that got blown off but is till pressurised or god knows what (especially considering all the other plot holes if you take the ending at face value).

Don't get me wrong, I do think the theory is the best explanation but as I tried to state in my earlier post, if you just look at what is there, it might really just be the BW writers either rushing a job or getting caught up in their own hubris. I hope it's not the case but apart from the tree-stumps in London, there is not really much there to specifically indicate otherwise and there are a couple of strange things about the ending too if the theory were true.

Modifié par MrFob, 20 mars 2012 - 11:56 .

[Kamagawa]

I have a few questions regarding the indoctrination theory.
Why didn't Javik detect that shep is/was indoctrinated
and was the VI on thessia (asari homeworld) just a little slow
to detect that shep is indoctrinated and kai leng's appearance is merely coincidence?

We know indoctrination can take a long time to become obvious.
So was shep's indoctrinated start at the end of ME1, as a result of the lazerus project, on the derelict reaper, on the battlefield while making the final push?

The main question is, what really happened?
Are the reapers destroyed?
is 'space magic' really gone?

i feel that the bit after the credits is either telling us that the reapers were somehow destroyed (with or without shep's help) or it is the moment before shep wakes up to find the reapers destroyed.

[Legion109]

Red Starblazer wrote...

So if we hit 1,000 pages...do we get like a box of cookies or something?

I want a cookie.

- We don't hold lines in Las Vegas we do lines -


Indoception - the belief it was an Indoctrination in a Hallucination caused by the Indoctrination in the Dreams.

[T16skyhopp]

The gravity on the Citadel is caused by its rotation, so if for some reason the "alive" ending is supposed to be Shepard on a half-exploded Citadel in Citadel rubble he shouldn't be in a pile because there should be no gravity.

[Spectre-61]

ChristopherShepard wrote...

Does anyone recognized that if you choose the control option
(blue ending) the mass relays doesn't be destroyed? I saw this!
The Beam hits the relay but it doesn't exlopde!!

www.youtube.com/watch

2:15

Yes, mass relays get destroyed.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

MrFob wrote...

Although, we don't know if that the rubble is in London, right? I mean, could be a part of the citadel that got blown off but is till pressurised or god knows what (especially considering all the other plot holes if you take the ending at face value).

Don't get me wrong, I do think the theory is the best explanation but as I tried to state in my earlier post, if you just look at what is there, it might really just be the BW writers either rushing a job or getting caught up in their own hubris. I hope it's not the case but apart from the tree-stumps in London, there is not really much there to specifically indicate otherwise and there are a couple of strange things about the ending too if the theory were true.

The rubble is clearly concrete and not metal  with the textures matching those found in London as well as the lighting.

[ChristopherShepard]

variobunz wrote...

ChristopherShepard wrote...

Does anyone recognized that if you choose the control option
(blue ending) the mass relays doesn't be destroyed? I saw this!
The Beam hits the relay but it doesn't exlopde!!

www.youtube.com/watch

2:15

Yes, mass relays get destroyed.

thanks for the link, that is exactly what i meant. the rings from therelay just stop. at the red ending the rings blows apart

[MrFob]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
The rubble is clearly concrete and not metal  with the textures matching those found in London as well as the lighting.

All I am saying is that while the indoctrination theory makes perfect sense to me, if you just look at what is there in the game, the "evidence" or even the indications are very thin. If BW really wanted to implement it that way, they used an extremely subtle approach. I think that is great if they did it but IMO it might just as well be a case of bad writing with a lot of plot holes.

[Spectre-61]

^The mass relays blow up in every ending!

Modifié par variobunz, 20 mars 2012 - 12:16 .

[Vahilor]

Yes and the Star Child even says, that in every path Shepard will chose the Mass Relays will be destroyed.. the only difference is the color they blwo up ...red, green or blue.

[MrFob]

Vahilor wrote...

Yes and the Star Child even says, that in every path Shepard will chose the Mass Relays will be destroyed.. the only difference is the color they blwo up ...red, green or blue.

As I said earlier, that is one of my major gripes with the theory. If the star child represents the reapers last ditch effort of indoctrination, wouldn't it try to "sweeten the deal" such that only destruction would cause the relay network to explode? Or what is the point of that even in the hallucination?

EDIT: Oh something else, I just listened to the cut Anderson dialogue (beautiful piece of writing and VO btw). If the indoctrination theory would turn out to have been the plan all along and Anderson just represents some part of Shep's mind, it would make perfect sense to cut the whole part about settling down and keep it as abstract as possible. If the ending is the real ending, it is a damn shame they cut that.

Modifié par MrFob, 20 mars 2012 - 12:32 .

[Vodic]

Well, didn't see anything written about it in the summary in the first page, and I can't be bothered to read through 750 pages of comments,
but did anyone else notice how Shepard has his N7 Tag on his armor if he survives as he lies in the rubble? There's clearly no such thing present on his armor when on the Crucible.