57139 réponses à ce sujet

[MRedfield]

Deklan_Caine wrote...

I have a couple of observations to contribute to the theory that it doesn't seem like others have caught (apologies if someone else caught these already and I missed it...):

1) As soon as Shepherd "wakes up" after being blasted by the Reaper laser, he's limping. If, as you're playing, you try to look/aim down at Shep's feet, you can't. The view angle get's blocked so that you can't see below his/her knees. If you watch the pace of the legs moving, though, it becomes really obvious that Shepherd is moving considerably faster than he is actually walking, almost floating as it were. At first when I noticed this in the my second play-though I just figured it was designed that way because making Shepherds speed the same as his walk would make the last moments in the game take 3 times longer (and it already seemed to take forever). But if we're rolling with the hallucination/indoctrination theory, then the fact that he's practically floating on his feet just adds more fuel to the fire...

2) When the "Catalyst" child starts listing the three options, he goes out of his way to make destruction sound like a terrible idea. "If you do this you'll kill all the Geth you've helped, not to mention that your kids will just make more robots farther down the road and nothing will really be solved." The kid also very pointedly avoids claiming that Shepard will die outright if he chooses that option, merely dropping a hint that Shep "might" die. Shepard also expresses doubts in the child's judgment by saying "Maybe." This is in direct contrast with the other two options (control and synthesis), where the kid goes out of his way to make them sound much more appealing, says clearly that either option will kill Shepard, and Shepard expresses zero doubts about either of the propositions. Then there's the fact that, all of the sudden, a character (Anderson) that would typically be associated with the paragon color (blue) is represented by the renegade color (red/orange), and the Illusive Man, the embodiment of pure renegade, is given the paragon color. Everything about the scene is slanted to make the most obvious choice (destroy the Reapers) the least appealing, and turns the rest of the game (and the previous 2 games) on it's head. Not 30 seconds ago back by the console TIM was obviously the clear-cut indoctrinated villain (shooting Anderson) , but now the god-kid tries to snooker Shep into believing TIM was a tragic hero who would do the right thing. On the other hand, Anderson, who was making a heroic stand with Shep against the villainous Illusive Man, gets relegated to the role of murdering maniac who would choose the "bad" option and blow the Reapers to kingdom come. If that's not a clear attempt to indoctrinate Shepard, what is?

The line Harbinger repeated over and over in ME2 was that the Reapers would be "your salvation through destruction." Well, the synthesis and control options are literally salvation for the galaxy through Shep's destruction, buying into a compliance mindset. The only option that leaves Shep breathing is to destroy the Reapers, which has been the point since ME1. All the evidence points to the last sequence being a battle for Shepards mind that is only won when Shep chooses the path that the god-kid tries to convince him not to take.

What we then see (when we choose the RIGHT option) is Shepard waking up from the nightmare after having beaten the Reapers' last ditch attempt to stop him within his own mind. The fact that the god-kid just looks like a ghost version of the exact kid that has been haunting Shep's dreams since the beginning of the game makes it seem all the more plausible. I, for one, will assume that since Shep wakes up, victory is assured: he beams to the Citadel, blows away TIM with a REAL gun, punches the button on the console, and watches the Crucible-powered Citadel wipe the Reapers off the galactic map just like it was supposed to do.

This should be stapled to the top of every page in this thread.

I wish the 'report' button had an option for 'the best post on BSN, ever.'

[TheRealQueen]

thePredator50 wrote...

TheRealQueen wrote...

SomeBug wrote...

Turtlicious wrote...

SomeBug wrote...

This is reaching new levels of desperation.

Occam's Razor, gentlemen.

Is the ending so convoluted because they had a grand scheme to convince everyone it was a bad ending as a real-world manifestation of the in-game concept of indoctrination.

Or did they simply write a bad ending so ambiguous and vague that you can fit any theory to the hooks that are there?

Guys, give it up. It's not going to happen. They're good but not that good. It's just bad. You've got to accept it or you'll never have the satisfaction of closure. It will linger and fester and we'll all be here in six months still theorycrafting and still trying to come up with our own ideas and plotlines.

It's just bad. Sorry to say. It's just bad.

Yes but it's a bigger stretch to say that writers who normally produce amazing writing decided to say **** it and railroad some piece of crap anything through. Hell, the simplest solution is that they wrote something good. Because they are good writers.

No. No that's simply not true. They are good writers but there are only two that are still there from ME1. It's been a revolving door the writer's room. The lead writer on ME3 is not the same person who wrote ME1 or 2.

The simplest explanation is that they had a framework of narrative in place. A story bible left over from ME1 that had all the good parts of the game. And then they couldn't write an ending.

Even the best writers the world has ever seen have had trouble writing good endings. It happens. It's a part of the writing world. Bad endings simply do happen and happen often.

Seriously, if you don't accept this you'll never be able to let it go. 

I understand where you are coming from, and what you say does have some truth in it, but really, what does it matter to you what we believe? You are free to disagree, but we are also free to believe there is something more to this as well, and I simply request that you respect this (not that you aren't being respectful, because you are). If you have actual evidence from the game that would disprove what we are hypothysizing, if you can debunk some of our evidence, please do so. It isn't pure naivite and desperation that is causing us to believe this, and if there are hard facts that disprove this theory I will willingly believe them, but until then, please, understand.

Thank you 

 

Stop being so insecure that you require everyone who disagrees to show respect to your beliefs, it makes us look bad. Let the man say whatever he wants.

Yuzna75 wrote...

Another thing that really speaks against this entire theory is that the script that was leaked in November had pretty much the same ending, but with a little bit more closure if shepard survived. If this is indeed the case then we are most likely stuck with what we got, unless they all of a sudden went haywire with the ending.

 

Actually, this lends MORE credibility to this. The ending to their most ambitious epic got leaked... What better way to handle that than to change the ending and have it explode in everyone's face?

Thank you for reminding me why I tend to avoid Message Boards. It's because I tend to be insecure and take things in ways that I shouldn't. I apologize for this. You are right though, I felt that perhaps he was talking down to us because we believed this, but upon rereading I realize I was just being sensitive. I have participated in this thread more than I wanted, so I'll just be quiet now. Or at least I'll try to.

Thank you

[Lugaidster]

Yuzna75 wrote...

Another thing that really speaks against this entire theory is that the script that was leaked in November had pretty much the same ending, but with a little bit more closure if shepard survived. If this is indeed the case then we are most likely stuck with what we got, unless they all of a sudden went haywire with the ending.

Evidence? I wanna read that leak.

[thePredator50]

TheRealQueen wrote...

Thank you for reminding me why I tend to avoid Message Boards. It's because I tend to be insecure and take things in ways that I shouldn't. I apologize for this. You are right though, I felt that perhaps he was talking down to us because we believed this, but upon rereading I realize I was just being sensitive. I have participated in this thread more than I wanted, so I'll just be quiet now. Or at least I'll try to.

Thank you

Just don't want us to look like religious fanatics.

[Yuzna75]

I am still digging around, but as soon as I can find it I'll post it. I just read another thread about the leak and they said the endings were the same, the major difference was that if shepard lived anderson and your LI would be there to get you out of the rubble and there would be a summary of how the war went and what will happen now

Bascially this thread http://social.biowar...index/9735600/1

Still trying to find the actual leaked script though,

http://pastebin.com/KYJNWGug

Basically line 1658 and forward, still digging through it though

Modifié par Yuzna75, 11 mars 2012 - 01:08 .

[CDHarrisUSF]

Yuzna75 wrote...

the major difference was that if shepard lived anderson and your LI would be there to get you out of the rubble and there would be a summary of how the war went and what will happen now

Why would they get rid of the only good parts and keep the cheesy space magic crap?! That just makes me hate the ending we got even more...

Modifié par CDHarrisUSF, 11 mars 2012 - 01:04 .

[heretica]

 I really hope you are right, Byne. However I can't help to feel silly thinking about this, like I can't deal with the fact that the game and Shepard's story is done. 
Also, guys, If you have the CE, please check the art book, page 16.
"One child would be the face of the people on Earth whom Shepard could not save"

Next to it, picture of the "kid". I don't know, I think I'm looking too much into it now? Is he even real?

[thePredator50]

Gonna have to throw a wrench in the theory - you can still die on the walk to the beam... The 3 husks and the Marauder can kill you.

[CenturyCrow]

The truth will emerge on April 1st.

Occum's Razor would suggest that you already got what you're going to get.

[SomeBug]

Ellestor wrote...

SomeBug wrote...

This is reaching new levels of desperation.

Occam's Razor, gentlemen.

Is the ending so convoluted because they had a grand scheme to convince everyone it was a bad ending as a real-world manifestation of the in-game concept of indoctrination.

Or did they simply write a bad ending so ambiguous and vague that you can fit any theory to the hooks that are there?

Guys, give it up. It's not going to happen. They're good but not that good. It's just bad. You've got to accept it or you'll never have the satisfaction of closure. It will linger and fester and we'll all be here in six months still theorycrafting and still trying to come up with our own ideas and plotlines.

It's just bad. Sorry to say. It's just bad.

Careful not to misunderstand Occam's razor.

It does not stipulate that the simplest hypothesis (the one involving the fewest assumptions) will be right, simply that it is more likely to be right, or at least easier to prove or disprove. It's a principle used to encourage covering the basics first. More often than not, the simplest explanation isn't the correct one—because most of the time you don't have all the data needed to form a complete explanation—but it's more efficient to start from that point.

Nope. Occam's Razor means that without any definitive, conclusive fact to support any theory, you should assume the simplest one is true. Not only because it is far, far more likely to be true, thus avoiding yet more disappointment down the road, but that you will never be satisfied if you are willing to believe a complicated solution.

Because what if that complicated solution turns out to be false. Unless you abide by Occam's Razor, you'll invent an even more complicated solution instead of accepting that you were wrong all along.

There is a small chance that all this hallucination/indoctrination theory is true. I guess it would be pretty awesome if it was true. But it isn't true. There is no 'evidence' that supports it. Just co-incidence.

You've invented a story that fits some of the facts rather than a story that fits ALL of the facts. That's the definition of religious delusion. It is illogical, flawed thinking.

[Doctor Quinn]

I have come around to Shepherd being indoctrinated.

1. When we first meet ghost kid he suddenly disappears down the shaft when we turn to Anderson without a sound.

2. When Ghost kid enters the shuttle that is destroyed no one in the shuttle acknowledges the boy. He struggles to climb in and everyone in the shuttle stands there without even lending a hand out. No one even steps. He isn't real.

3. As the game gets closer to it's denouement Shepherd's dreams get flooded with ghostly voices.

4. Each time Shepherd wakes from them he holds his head with pain.

5. Shepherd has been exposed to Reaper tech for the entire duration of the game.

6. Everyone has been exposed to Reaper tech since they found their first relay. As Sovereign said, "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life." Their technology is a prison that preps its victims for harvesting. As we're told indoctrination is a subtle process and through it the Reapers have been puppeteering since the first alien set foot on the citadel. The Asari had the information about the catalyst for centuries, but they sat on it. Why? Was it their own reasoning that lead them to sit on it for a technological edge over the other races, or was it a subtle suggestion/temptation by the Reaper tech that surrounds everyone's civilization? The Reapers are order. They are determinism in its purest form. They pose the illusion of free will only to disappoint you that you made the choice they intended. Evidence of subtle indoctrination on the Citadel itself is there in ME1 with all those rules about staying away from the keepers. How can it be that no one has ever studied the entirety of the citadel in all those thousands of years? Simple they are persuaded by the Citadel itself not to. It was more than a trap in the sense that it was a mass relay for the reapers. It was also the method of subtle control to insure that the interstellar community functions as they prefer.

7. Shepherd is not at all himself in the final scene. He mutters weak I don't know's like some dolt. He's at the end of his will and the joke is on him. He is about to do precisely what the reapers want him to do. Indoctrination seems to function on the illusion of choice. And given the ending that may be precisely what we saw. Saren for example convinces himself that the best way to save the galaxy is to appeal organic life's usefulness to the Reapers. Whereas the Cerberus head was tempted by the power to control Reapers. All of them felt like they were making a choice, but the reality was indoctrination had taken away their free will. They had no choice other than to do the whims of the Reaper intelligence.

8. In this reading of it Catalyst at the end is feeding Shepherd a line of bull. At this point Shepherd is worn down. Catalyst does not need to explain himself to him. Throughout the series Shepherd is consumed with preserving life in the galaxy. The catalyst plays on that desire. Appeals that his people (the Reapers) have the same interest. Makes up some nonsense that they are the vanguard that enables life to live on through its harvesting. He calmly accepts this despite Mordin's own observation in ME2 that Reaper tech displays utter disdain for organic life in its very design.  This is all said to create the illusion of choice for Shepherd. That he is listening to someone trustworthy who is giving him options.

9. The Prothean VI on Thessia insists constantly it is too late and Shepherd never takes the option to listen as to why it thinks so.

Modifié par Doctor Quinn, 11 mars 2012 - 01:16 .

[ShdwFox7]

SomeBug wrote...

Nope. Occam's Razor means that without any definitive, conclusive fact to support any theory, you should assume the simplest one is true. Not only because it is far, far more likely to be true, thus avoiding yet more disappointment down the road, but that you will never be satisfied if you are willing to believe a complicated solution.

Because what if that complicated solution turns out to be false. Unless you abide by Occam's Razor, you'll invent an even more complicated solution instead of accepting that you were wrong all along.

There is a small chance that all this hallucination/indoctrination theory is true. I guess it would be pretty awesome if it was true. But it isn't true. There is no 'evidence' that supports it. Just co-incidence.

You've invented a story that fits some of the facts rather than a story that fits ALL of the facts. That's the definition of religious delusion. It is illogical, flawed thinking.

We're getting to that part. Just sit back and watch

[Turtlicious]

thePredator50 wrote...

Gonna have to throw a wrench in the theory - you can still die on the walk to the beam... The 3 husks and the Marauder can kill you.

I like to think that as another way Harbinger tries to break into your mind, and that it's more metaphysical. Why does the pistol do so much damage to these creatures? Because they're not real.  Also, Harbinger still knows shepard is alive, so why doesn't he open fire again?

[Aanlen]

I'm reading a lot of parrallels to religion. Come on. We're just grasping at straws and are trying to make ourself feel better, after getting our favorite franchise just... Destroyed in the last 10 minutes of the game.

And anyway, this feels very plausable, seing Bioware is known for engame plot twists. Maybe they're doing this as the ultimate plot twist, and will release a dlc that will mindf**ck everyone hard. Not a nice thing to do, but it would be... Rather amazing and unbelievable if they did.

I'm expecting some sort of twist of epic proportions. I can't imagine they would let it end this open, and this full of derps. And I can't believe they would use that kid dream over and over again, if it has no significance.

[Turtlicious]

SomeBug wrote...

Ellestor wrote...

SomeBug wrote...

This is reaching new levels of desperation.

Occam's Razor, gentlemen.

Is the ending so convoluted because they had a grand scheme to convince everyone it was a bad ending as a real-world manifestation of the in-game concept of indoctrination.

Or did they simply write a bad ending so ambiguous and vague that you can fit any theory to the hooks that are there?

Guys, give it up. It's not going to happen. They're good but not that good. It's just bad. You've got to accept it or you'll never have the satisfaction of closure. It will linger and fester and we'll all be here in six months still theorycrafting and still trying to come up with our own ideas and plotlines.

It's just bad. Sorry to say. It's just bad.

Careful not to misunderstand Occam's razor.

It does not stipulate that the simplest hypothesis (the one involving the fewest assumptions) will be right, simply that it is more likely to be right, or at least easier to prove or disprove. It's a principle used to encourage covering the basics first. More often than not, the simplest explanation isn't the correct one—because most of the time you don't have all the data needed to form a complete explanation—but it's more efficient to start from that point.

Nope. Occam's Razor means that without any definitive, conclusive fact to support any theory, you should assume the simplest one is true. Not only because it is far, far more likely to be true, thus avoiding yet more disappointment down the road, but that you will never be satisfied if you are willing to believe a complicated solution.

Because what if that complicated solution turns out to be false. Unless you abide by Occam's Razor, you'll invent an even more complicated solution instead of accepting that you were wrong all along.

There is a small chance that all this hallucination/indoctrination theory is true. I guess it would be pretty awesome if it was true. But it isn't true. There is no 'evidence' that supports it. Just co-incidence.

You've invented a story that fits some of the facts rather than a story that fits ALL of the facts. That's the definition of religious delusion. It is illogical, flawed thinking.

I have been pleading for SOMEONE to point out a fact that this doesn't fit with? because everything I look at points to this. If you have something, please tell me, because I may be too close to see it.

[Mixon]

Why Bioware? :*( What we done to you? :**(

[SomeBug]

ShdwFox7 wrote...

SomeBug wrote...

Nope. Occam's Razor means that without any definitive, conclusive fact to support any theory, you should assume the simplest one is true. Not only because it is far, far more likely to be true, thus avoiding yet more disappointment down the road, but that you will never be satisfied if you are willing to believe a complicated solution.

Because what if that complicated solution turns out to be false. Unless you abide by Occam's Razor, you'll invent an even more complicated solution instead of accepting that you were wrong all along.

There is a small chance that all this hallucination/indoctrination theory is true. I guess it would be pretty awesome if it was true. But it isn't true. There is no 'evidence' that supports it. Just co-incidence.

You've invented a story that fits some of the facts rather than a story that fits ALL of the facts. That's the definition of religious delusion. It is illogical, flawed thinking.

We're getting to that part. Just sit back and watch

So you're willing to believe something that is categorically untrue based upon what we DO know, because you believe that it will make sense later on by what we WILL know?

I mean, do you really not see what you're doing here.

'Don't worry, once the Messiah has his second coming I'll be proven right'.

Logical thinking dictates that you believe something based upon facts presented to you. Then modify that belief if new facts emerge. You don't believe something that might happen because you want it to.

I'm just trying to temper your hopes. You are setting yourself up for disappointment.

[Stalker]

I came across a flaw in the theory:
Why would Harbinger let Shepard hallucinate about all that? The best way to ensure the Reapers' success would be to simply let Shepard die.

[hismastersvoice]

While the general line or reasoning presented here looks sound and resonates with my attempts at making sense of the endings, that still leaves the issue of a game left with no closure and pretty much no actual ending as such, or rather half an ending - you either give in to indoctrination, die and lose, or resist, live and never know if you succeeded or not.

So while Bioware might have come up with the greatest plot twist in gaming history, they still managed to botch it by not going all the way through...

Mr Massakka wrote...

I came across a flaw in the theory:
Why
would Harbinger let Shepard hallucinate about all that? The best way to
ensure the Reapers' success would be to simply let Shepard die.

By the same token, why didn't he just zap him again anyway?

Perhaps he thought he got Shepard. Reapers aren't really built to sift trhough rubble in search for bodies to confirm a kill.

Modifié par hismastersvoice, 11 mars 2012 - 01:22 .

[Doctor Quinn]

To be honest how do we know that those choices didn't actually kill shepherd while at the same time destroying the crucible. Without a way to win the races would resort to hiding and fighting guerilla style. By dangling a possible way to win they force the galaxy to stand in a decisive battle they can't win, because their ace in the hole is actually a deuce.

Modifié par Doctor Quinn, 11 mars 2012 - 01:24 .

[Turtlicious]

Mr Massakka wrote...

I came across a flaw in the theory:
Why would Harbinger let Shepard hallucinate about all that? The best way to ensure the Reapers' success would be to simply let Shepard die.

Why did he need the Illusive Man or Saren?

Shepard is Harbinger's Mortal Enemy, and Harbinger would like nothing more then to break Shepard's mind and have him sucumb to indoctrination, That's what the enemies you fight in the beginning are, an assault for your mind, then you blow'em away with your thought pistol, and then go into the light, Your subconscious battles with Harbinger and creates the scene described on the first page. This is not actually happening, but just a mental representation of the fight in your mind.

I do admit this is a stretch, and I'm willing to concede this point, but I believe the Reaper's for what ever reason want Shepard Alive. That's why you can "die" for waiting too long in the endingtron 9000 room. Harbinger has been battering away at your mental defenses and finally you succum.

[Turtlicious]

SomeBug wrote...

So you're willing to believe something that is categorically untrue based upon what we DO know, because you believe that it will make sense later on by what we WILL know?

I mean, do you really not see what you're doing here.

'Don't worry, once the Messiah has his second coming I'll be proven right'.

Logical thinking dictates that you believe something based upon facts presented to you. Then modify that belief if new facts emerge. You don't believe something that might happen because you want it to.

I'm just trying to temper your hopes. You are setting yourself up for disappointment.

That's now what he said, we're still collecting facts. OJ Simpson wasn't arrested in a day, you need to allow us time to disect the game more, look at screenshots and vids see if there is anything we missed. We will change our theory as new information comes up, or completely throw it away and start again if it doesn't fit, but honestly, it's not religious fanatacism, and to be frank, I find you constantly comparing us to religious people rude and insulting.

I'm not burning the Qu'ran, I'm not preaching against gays. I'm trying to see if there's a hidden meaning in the video game because I'm bored and dissappointed, and it seemed like fun.

[Direwolf1618]

Personally I don't believe that Bioware intended it to be a hallucination/indoctrination thing. I think they had some artistic vision, of the inside of their colons but yea.

That being said I think it does offer them a convenient out of this uproar about the ending.

[Lugaidster]

By the way, reading the script I don't see anything that completely disproves the endings here. There are similarities but there's also mention of a dream before the conduit. There's enough differences in other parts of the story to allow for a small but important difference here.

However, that being said, I'm not sure about anything yet.

Cheers

[Turtlicious]

Preliatus wrote...

Being unable to post because I watched my friend beat the game, and I don't own it yet.

After looking up the perfect ending on Youtube. Indoctrination/Hallucination makes sense. You don't see rubble from the Citadel when Shepard gasps for breath. You see destroyed cemet, a Mako tire, a city skyline.

This is the best ending to Mass Effect 3 that could be brought, and everyone is still on earth, or atleast I think. The surprise that TIM was indoctrinated was not a surprise because he shared the same eyes as Saren back in Mass Effect.

So, with the end being a final dream, or hallucination. How did shepard defeat the reapers without firing off the crucible?

To note, the added screen blur from getting up made it apparent it was a dream. Same effects used in the dream sequences earlier on.

He couldn't post so I will be posting for him, and I did miss the screen blur thing, he is right about that, and should be added to the board, I also want to create a con list, so people don't think we're being unbiased.