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[Doug M]

Regarding the Indoctrination Theory (IDT), it works for several reasons, and we can let BioWare (BW) work out the specifics:

• Even if it isn't intentional, IDT give BW an opportunity to have created the most immersive experience ever created in any entertainment medium.
• "You are Commander Shepard" is the premise of the trilogy.  The ultimate incarnation of this is for players to experience indoctrination the same way Shepard does, and then to reject this and embrace a heroic determination to fight against an outcome that is unacceptable, and to fight for all we hold dear in the ME universe.  Exactly as Shepard does.  By experiencing these emotions, you have become Commander Shepard in the truest way that a vehicle of interactive entertainment can provide.
• The Red/Green/Blue choices can segue into either an ending or a climactic confrontation in several ways: A) Green or Blue shows that you were indoctrinated, and the end is determined by how much Effective Military Strength (EMS) you have.  Not enough EMS, and the Reapers wipe out the fleet and the cycle continues.  Just barely enough EMS creates a lose-lose scenario where the both sides suffer heavy losses, but neither side can force a victory, and the galaxy spends the next several thousand years at war.  Enough EMS means the fleet barely wins a victory through attrition, and the galactic civilization spends the next several decades pushing the Reapers back out to Dark Space.  Any way you slice it, the cycle continues.  The Red choice shows that Shepard broke free from indoctrination, and the backlash weakens Harbinger in the same way that Saren's death weakened Sovereign.  Shepard is found by the LI (if there is one) or other squadmates (if any are left alive) or other ground forces (if there's enough EMS), saved, gets back on her/his feet to finish the fight.  S/he has a dramatic final controntation with Harbinger (to be addressed in Point 4 below), after which EMS determines if there is enough firepower to destroy Harbinger, or if Shepard is only able to cripple Harbinger.  If there is enough EMS to destroy Harbinger, the other Reapers are weakened, which lowers the EMS threshhold for a fleet victory and opens up the possibility of a high enough EMS giving an ending where the Reapers are all destoryed in a decisive victory, and the cycle is broken.  If Harbinger is only crippled, it escapes and the rest of the Reapers are destoryed or defeated.  Harbinger goes into hiding, creating a looming unknown threat at some unknown point in the future.
• The final confrontation with Harbinger can take a couple of different shapes: A) A thrilling action setpiece where your combat skills are put to the ultimate test, or The Red/Green/Blue Choice was the final struggle, and your EMS determines the fate of the galaxy.  There are ultimately two ways to create a climactic challenge for the player; either using the game's combat system for the challenge, or use the game's choice system for the challenge.  Both are equally prevalent throughout the trilogy, and a strong argument could be made for either one.  For combat, it's the more vicerally satisfying vehicle to use for the final challenge.  There's more adrenaline and excitement, which, when successful, leaves the player with the greater sense of accomplishment and pride in their player skill.  On the other hand, it's also what every other shooter does for their final challenges.  For choice, it's more cognitively demanding challenge, where the player must pay attention to and think about what's happening, what they've seen, and grapple with the consequences of their choice.  It's a departure from other game fanchises and their final challenges, and stands out as a final result whose outcome has been determined by your choices throughout the entire game, not just by how good your aim is.  Then again, after the first playthrough, the thrill of making the "right" choice isn't there anymore, and making a choice doesn't scale with difficulty level.  Also, successive playthroughs can turn into boring grinds just to get the "best" ending if your combat skill isn't a factor in the final challenge.
• Perhaps there's a way to mesh combat and choice into the final challenge.  I don't know how that could be done, but it's an interesting thought.
• Another interesting thought: Being that Shepard is so strong willed, perhaps it is possible for her/him to be the first person who could be permanently indoctrinated, thus becoming a permanent agent of Harbinger, like a lieutenant.  This would be a very Darth Vader-y thing to do, and a terrifying ending.

[Dwailing]

titusrsoooooo1337 wrote...

ManznPain wrote...

That sad feeling when you realize that after getting hit by Harbys beam:
Reapers playing with the mind of everyone that ran to the beam. The three husks that come your way are fleeing marines of the Hammer unit.
Marauder Shields is Anderson.
:'(

Yeah, doesn't really make sense but you know... Lots of speculation from everyone!

This holds no water. People don't magically become husks within minutes...It takes days or more of sitting on the reaper "spike" to become a husk. 

Buuuuuut, if Shepard was being indoctrinated maybe he saw those marines as husks.  Wait, when do these guys show up?

[JTP117]

Dwailing wrote...

titusrsoooooo1337 wrote...

ManznPain wrote...

That sad feeling when you realize that after getting hit by Harbys beam:
Reapers playing with the mind of everyone that ran to the beam. The three husks that come your way are fleeing marines of the Hammer unit.
Marauder Shields is Anderson.
:'(

Yeah, doesn't really make sense but you know... Lots of speculation from everyone!

This holds no water. People don't magically become husks within minutes...It takes days or more of sitting on the reaper "spike" to become a husk. 

Buuuuuut, if Shepard was being indoctrinated maybe he saw those marines as husks.  Wait, when do these guys show up?

Even if shepard was seeing things and people looked like husks, why would these "Alliance marines" try to beat the crap out of shepard, and why would "anderson" shoot him in the shoulder the second he saw him?

[Bubalo]

I may be missing something but does the indoc theory account for the Normandy and the Stargazer thing at the end? Im looking through various videos/articles talking about the theory but havnt seen anything relating these besides questions.

[ManznPain]

Dwailing wrote...

titusrsoooooo1337 wrote...

ManznPain wrote...

That sad feeling when you realize that after getting hit by Harbys beam:
Reapers playing with the mind of everyone that ran to the beam. The three husks that come your way are fleeing marines of the Hammer unit.
Marauder Shields is Anderson.
:'(

Yeah, doesn't really make sense but you know... Lots of speculation from everyone!

This holds no water. People don't magically become husks within minutes...It takes days or more of sitting on the reaper "spike" to become a husk. 

Buuuuuut, if Shepard was being indoctrinated maybe he saw those marines as husks.  Wait, when do these guys show up?

everyone would just be instant-indoctrinated. and everyone sees everybody as husks. and those that look human are husks in reality 

[greywardencommander]

 http://social.biowar.../index/10350970 
I have a way that indoctrination theory (if presented as the internal battle of the mind against control) can work in ending dlc whilst still enabling those who chose synthesis or control to play it (i.e. not only destroy) and have the final showdown, me2 type tactics where your decisions effect the losses, the EMS effecting the possibilities, the reapers still able to win (this should be an option) a potential happy ending, a few bittersweet ending - your shep dies/indoctrinated but final battle won and a and a potential HAPPY ending where you see your Shep with his crew.An epilogue of cutscenes and text/dialogue showing how what your dead impacted on the geth, quarians, the salarians, the krogan, what happens to your squad mates etc

[RyanHensley2010]

Ingenious...except for option 6, that don't make no sense...

[JTP117]

Bubalo wrote...

I may be missing something but does the indoc theory account for the Normandy and the Stargazer thing at the end? Im looking through various videos/articles talking about the theory but havnt seen anything relating these besides questions.

It does, by chronology, the stargazer scene takes place after shepard wakes up, so that is an ACTUAL look into the future with the old man about to tell one more story about Shepard vis-a-vi, the rumored DLC that expands on the ending

[natalZ]

Hello guys, this topic has so many posts that i cant read them all. But sorry if im goint to be repetitive now.

I was playing ME2 again, and reached the scout mission on Collector's Ship.. blablabla and you have to fight your way out there.

But Harbinger starts his yells ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL in every wave, but sometime he says "Commander Shepard cannot be controled" (or something like that).

WAIT A MINUTE... why not say that to Garrus/Tali/Grunt/Thane or who else is with me? Why only and specific to Shepard?

Can it be another proof that Harbinger already detect that Shepard's Mind is in conflict with the Reaper's Indocrination and could be controled or at least, try it?

[Direwolf0294]

I've posted it before in other threads but it bares posting again in the main thread. The indoctrination theory makes no sense. Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated. In fact it's the exact opposite with Shepard being assured again and again that they are indeed Shepard and they are fully in control of themselves.

To suddenly come out and say "no Shepard was being mind controlled" is stupid. Shepard's death on the other hand was something that was hinted at numerous times during the game. The ending we got with Shepard dying was clearly the ending BioWare intended.

Now, after all the outcry, BioWare will probably come out with some DLC that says the whole ending was a dream or something but to act like it was something they planned all along is foolish.

[JTP117]

ManznPain wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

titusrsoooooo1337 wrote...

ManznPain wrote...

That sad feeling when you realize that after getting hit by Harbys beam:
Reapers playing with the mind of everyone that ran to the beam. The three husks that come your way are fleeing marines of the Hammer unit.
Marauder Shields is Anderson.
:'(

Yeah, doesn't really make sense but you know... Lots of speculation from everyone!

This holds no water. People don't magically become husks within minutes...It takes days or more of sitting on the reaper "spike" to become a husk. 

Buuuuuut, if Shepard was being indoctrinated maybe he saw those marines as husks.  Wait, when do these guys show up?

everyone would just be instant-indoctrinated. and everyone sees everybody as husks. and those that look human are husks in reality 

That wouldnt follow the IT since shepard is laying down unconscious as all that is happening. Him staggering about shooting alledged marines doesnt explain how he ended up on his back unconscious

[Dwailing]

JTP117 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

titusrsoooooo1337 wrote...

ManznPain wrote...

That sad feeling when you realize that after getting hit by Harbys beam:
Reapers playing with the mind of everyone that ran to the beam. The three husks that come your way are fleeing marines of the Hammer unit.
Marauder Shields is Anderson.
:'(

Yeah, doesn't really make sense but you know... Lots of speculation from everyone!

This holds no water. People don't magically become husks within minutes...It takes days or more of sitting on the reaper "spike" to become a husk. 

Buuuuuut, if Shepard was being indoctrinated maybe he saw those marines as husks.  Wait, when do these guys show up?

Even if shepard was seeing things and people looked like husks, why would these "Alliance marines" try to beat the crap out of shepard, and why would "anderson" shoot him in the shoulder the second he saw him?

Yeah, it's not perfect, I was just trying to point out that it would make a good twist.  Whether it is accurate or not is another question.  And yeah, after reading the counter arguments, it's probably not true, but like the OP said, lots of speculation, and it was worth getting other opinions.

[JTP117]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I've posted it before in other threads but it bares posting again in the main thread. The indoctrination theory makes no sense. Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated. In fact it's the exact opposite with Shepard being assured again and again that they are indeed Shepard and they are fully in control of themselves.

To suddenly come out and say "no Shepard was being mind controlled" is stupid. Shepard's death on the other hand was something that was hinted at numerous times during the game. The ending we got with Shepard dying was clearly the ending BioWare intended.

Now, after all the outcry, BioWare will probably come out with some DLC that says the whole ending was a dream or something but to act like it was something they planned all along is foolish.

You mean besides the fact that he is alive in one ending? Or the fact that he is showing every single symptom of indoctrination stated by the codex itself? You guys who come in here and say we are wrong need to start getting more proof than "this is dumb"

[cmagallon]

JTP117 wrote...

Bubalo wrote...

I may be missing something but does the indoc theory account for the Normandy and the Stargazer thing at the end? Im looking through various videos/articles talking about the theory but havnt seen anything relating these besides questions.

It does, by chronology, the stargazer scene takes place after shepard wakes up, so that is an ACTUAL look into the future with the old man about to tell one more story about Shepard vis-a-vi, the rumored DLC that expands on the ending

That would be an awesome segue, Shep wakes up and finally finishes the fight.

[RyanHensley2010]

Bubalo wrote...

I may be missing something but does the indoc theory account for the Normandy and the Stargazer thing at the end? Im looking through various videos/articles talking about the theory but havnt seen anything relating these besides questions.

Well, the way I see it, shep is envisioning his closest friends, and/or LI as escaping unharmed from the fighting. There's no way this could have actually happened, mainly for me I had Garrus and Tali with me during the run to the beam, and both of them were on the Normandy at the end. Not possible.

[balance5050]

If you guys haven''t seen this Indoctrination video you need to NOW!!11111!!!!

[Doug M]

Bubalo wrote...

I may be missing something but does the indoc theory account for the Normandy and the Stargazer thing at the end? Im looking through various videos/articles talking about the theory but havnt seen anything relating these besides questions.

IDT does account for the Normandy and the Stargeezer (c wut i did thar?).

Because everything that happened after Shepard was hit by Harbinger's beam was an indoctrinated-influenced hallucination, what we see with the Normandy didn't actually happen.  It was Shepar's mind creating some kind of closure.

The Stargeezer could be a totally separate scene where, regardless of what Shepard does, galactic civilization, and Shepard's story, lives on.  When the child asks for one more story, the old man's response is a signal to us players that there's more game left to play.  Which was probably intended to be a nod towards DLC later on, but could also be used as a signal to us (if we chose Destory), that Shepard isn't done yet, and that there's still a bit more fight left in her/him.

[Tiax Rules All]

cmagallon wrote...

That would be an awesome segue, Shep wakes up and finally finishes the fight.

yeah thats the idea

[Tiax Rules All]

balance5050 wrote...

If you guys haven''t seen this Indoctrination video you need to NOW!!11111!!!!

heh, yeah, im sure most of the people in here have. its pretty amazing, been in my sig for a while.

[Dwailing]

JTP117 wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I've posted it before in other threads but it bares posting again in the main thread. The indoctrination theory makes no sense. Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated. In fact it's the exact opposite with Shepard being assured again and again that they are indeed Shepard and they are fully in control of themselves.

To suddenly come out and say "no Shepard was being mind controlled" is stupid. Shepard's death on the other hand was something that was hinted at numerous times during the game. The ending we got with Shepard dying was clearly the ending BioWare intended.

Now, after all the outcry, BioWare will probably come out with some DLC that says the whole ending was a dream or something but to act like it was something they planned all along is foolish.

You mean besides the fact that he is alive in one ending? Or the fact that he is showing every single symptom of indoctrination stated by the codex itself? You guys who come in here and say we are wrong need to start getting more proof than "this is dumb"

Agreed, counter arguments should be just that, COUNTER ARGUMENTS with evidence to support them.  So yeah, this ties in to what I just posted.  Discuss new ideas, and present evidence that supports them.  Is that so hard?  Of course, in the case of some counter arguments, the reason that other people's evidence is comprised of "this is dumb" is because the evidence points to indoctrination theory rather than horrible writing.

[titusrsoooooo1337]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I've posted it before in other threads but it bares posting again in the main thread. The indoctrination theory makes no sense. Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated. In fact it's the exact opposite with Shepard being assured again and again that they are indeed Shepard and they are fully in control of themselves.

To suddenly come out and say "no Shepard was being mind controlled" is stupid. Shepard's death on the other hand was something that was hinted at numerous times during the game. The ending we got with Shepard dying was clearly the ending BioWare intended.

Now, after all the outcry, BioWare will probably come out with some DLC that says the whole ending was a dream or something but to act like it was something they planned all along is foolish.

[ManznPain]

Yeah, it's not perfect, I was just trying to point out that it would make a good twist.  Whether it is accurate or not is another question.  And yeah, after reading the counter arguments, it's probably not true, but like the OP said, lots of speculation, and it was worth getting other opinions.

I know it wouldn't make any sense when i typed that. I was already about to delete my post but then i thought "well... it doesn't need to make sense, because the ending we got doesn't make sense either" 

[JTP117]

titusrsoooooo1337 wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I've posted it before in other threads but it bares posting again in the main thread. The indoctrination theory makes no sense. Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated. In fact it's the exact opposite with Shepard being assured again and again that they are indeed Shepard and they are fully in control of themselves.

To suddenly come out and say "no Shepard was being mind controlled" is stupid. Shepard's death on the other hand was something that was hinted at numerous times during the game. The ending we got with Shepard dying was clearly the ending BioWare intended.

Now, after all the outcry, BioWare will probably come out with some DLC that says the whole ending was a dream or something but to act like it was something they planned all along is foolish.

I lol'd

[Dwailing]

ManznPain wrote...

Yeah, it's not perfect, I was just trying to point out that it would make a good twist.  Whether it is accurate or not is another question.  And yeah, after reading the counter arguments, it's probably not true, but like the OP said, lots of speculation, and it was worth getting other opinions.

I know it wouldn't make any sense when i typed that. I was already about to delete my post but then i thought "well... it doesn't need to make sense, because the ending we got doesn't make sense either" 

Glad you're a good sport about it.  Keep holding the line, we need all the troops we can get.

[Tiax Rules All]

man the wait to find out if IDT is gonna be true or not is killer.

The worst part about it is that it is hurting my replayability till i know, and this cant be what Bioware intended.