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[cmagallon]

Modifié par cmagallon, 21 mars 2012 - 02:31 .

[chkchkchk]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated.

Here are two things off the top of my head:
1) Shep has dreams full of whispering and ghostly shapes, i.e. symptoms of indoctrination described in the codex.
2) Shep's been inside a Reaper, has fought several, and was zapped by Object Rho.

[JTP117]

chkchkchk wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated.

Here are two things off the top of my head:
1) Shep has dreams full of whispering and ghostly shapes, i.e. symptoms of indoctrination described in the codex.
2) Shep's been inside a Reaper, has fought several, and was zapped by Object Rho.

allow me to assist
3) He hears growls and whispers while talking to TIM
4)His eyes change to TIM's if he chooses control or sythesis

[xsdob]

DuskRose wrote...

I wonder: people keep complaining about how long it took indoc to take effect (if the boy's a hallucination at the beginning). Assuming that from ME2--when MAJOR and REPEATED Reaper tech/Shep contact first took place-- Indoc was already starting to set on Shep, what sort of effect did info-melding with the asari from Feros, the only known survivor of Reaper Indoc do to Shep's brain?

Why doesn't the prothean VI, or javik himself, detect it than?

[Tiax Rules All]

chkchkchk wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated.

Here are two things off the top of my head:
1) Shep has dreams full of whispering and ghostly shapes, i.e. symptoms of indoctrination described in the codex.
2) Shep's been inside a Reaper, has fought several, and was zapped by Object Rho.

busted. Sometimes I wonder if some people even play the game before posting.

[titusrsoooooo1337]

xsdob wrote...

DuskRose wrote...

I wonder: people keep complaining about how long it took indoc to take effect (if the boy's a hallucination at the beginning). Assuming that from ME2--when MAJOR and REPEATED Reaper tech/Shep contact first took place-- Indoc was already starting to set on Shep, what sort of effect did info-melding with the asari from Feros, the only known survivor of Reaper Indoc do to Shep's brain?

Why doesn't the prothean VI, or javik himself, detect it than?

Because you are not yet Indoctrinated. They only detect those who are indoctrinated, not in the process of becoming so. Shep only becomes fully indoctrinated if you chose the Control or Synthesize endings.

[ShepherdofSouls]

 Not sure if this might mean a dream or not,or if its even relevant.But at the endgame sequence,the chasm right before you get to the control panel where TIM is,theres water coming down out of the structure with the dark hallway you just exited.Just tryin to help.Look out to the sides of the structure when you on the catwalk,by the shifting walls.

[titusrsoooooo1337]

Edit: sorry double post

Modifié par titusrsoooooo1337, 21 mars 2012 - 02:40 .

[crazyeye343]

I just thought it should be mentioned that retake mass effect has raised almost 75k for child's play.

[JTP117]

xsdob wrote...

DuskRose wrote...

I wonder: people keep complaining about how long it took indoc to take effect (if the boy's a hallucination at the beginning). Assuming that from ME2--when MAJOR and REPEATED Reaper tech/Shep contact first took place-- Indoc was already starting to set on Shep, what sort of effect did info-melding with the asari from Feros, the only known survivor of Reaper Indoc do to Shep's brain?

Why doesn't the prothean VI, or javik himself, detect it than?

Most likely because the VI is only familliar with Prothian physiology, the only reason it could detect TIM and Kai Leng from so far away is that they had a ton of reaper tech grafted to their bodies

[legaldinho]

titusrsoooooo1337 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

DuskRose wrote...

I wonder: people keep complaining about how long it took indoc to take effect (if the boy's a hallucination at the beginning). Assuming that from ME2--when MAJOR and REPEATED Reaper tech/Shep contact first took place-- Indoc was already starting to set on Shep, what sort of effect did info-melding with the asari from Feros, the only known survivor of Reaper Indoc do to Shep's brain?

Why doesn't the prothean VI, or javik himself, detect it than?

Because you are not yet Indoctrinated. They only detect those who are indoctrinated, not in the process of becoming so. Shep only becomes fully indoctrinated if you chose the Control or Synthesize endings.

I agree. I just posted this elsewhere:

legaldinho wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Only
reason I don't buy the indoctrination theories is because the Prothean
VIs can sense indoctrination. Vigil sensed nothing in ME1. You can
chalk that up to it not having happened yet, or being in early stages.

But
the VI on Thessia sensed Kai Leng before he even got in the temple, and
sensed nothing on Shepard. It would have had to be substantial at that
point and nothing.

That's the one counter argument there is. One. It is the one inconsistency. But it is not unanswerable.

Kai Leng was fully indoctrinated, as were TIM, Saren, Benezia.

Shepard is fighting against
indoctrination. They're trying to trick you. They haven't yet
succeeded. That's why a lot of people call it hallucination theory,
because unfortunately indoctrination leads some, who don't understand
the theory, to think it states shepard is indoctrinated in the same sense and to the same degree as those people the VIs detect. He's not- that's the entire point.

(the
allegorical, meta point, as it were, is that all action games are
indoctrinations in a sense. They give something a colour, shape the
options. The deeper point they want to make is: we've indoctrinated you,
the player. You chose control. You spent 150 hours fighting to destroy
the reapers. But we shaped things so that at the last minute, you chose
the very thing you fought for so long. It's all the rage now, the whole
meta games thing: Bioshock, Ass Creed II... well Bioware wants in on the
action, I think).

[HairyMadDog1010]

If the Prothiean scaning thing worked all the time, then the protheans would not have been betrayed by there own indoctrinated people.

[Kiara]

Dwailing wrote...

JTP117 wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I've posted it before in other threads but it bares posting again in the main thread. The indoctrination theory makes no sense. Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated. In fact it's the exact opposite with Shepard being assured again and again that they are indeed Shepard and they are fully in control of themselves.

To suddenly come out and say "no Shepard was being mind controlled" is stupid. Shepard's death on the other hand was something that was hinted at numerous times during the game. The ending we got with Shepard dying was clearly the ending BioWare intended.

Now, after all the outcry, BioWare will probably come out with some DLC that says the whole ending was a dream or something but to act like it was something they planned all along is foolish.

You mean besides the fact that he is alive in one ending? Or the fact that he is showing every single symptom of indoctrination stated by the codex itself? You guys who come in here and say we are wrong need to start getting more proof than "this is dumb"

Agreed, counter arguments should be just that, COUNTER ARGUMENTS with evidence to support them.  So yeah, this ties in to what I just posted.  Discuss new ideas, and present evidence that supports them.  Is that so hard?  Of course, in the case of some counter arguments, the reason that other people's evidence is comprised of "this is dumb" is because the evidence points to indoctrination theory rather than horrible writing.

Another thing to point out is the other Indocrinated characters TIM, Saren, Doctor Kenson, none of them believed they were being controled either. Since we play as Shepard we can only share Shepard's POV, what he knows we know. What Shepard believe's we believe.

Shepard isn't heavily indoctrinated, he still seems to have free will of his mind. The control from TIM conroled Shepard body but not the way he thought. That is not like any indoctrination I have seen.

I am Curious though if it does turn out to be ID, wonder how the story would end if a players Shepard chooses the control or Synthesis? Are they just gonna say "to bad your Shepard was taken over by the Reapers" ? and they don't really get anything out of that kinda ending. I mean I can see the Shepard that chooses Destroy, wakes up and contines the fight for real. But what about the others I wonder.. ID shepard wakes convinced the reapers don't need to be destroyed or...? hmm  pure speculation of course lol Hope to hear news of this Ending issue soon.. driving me nuts..

[RorickHuon]

xsdob wrote...

DuskRose wrote...

I wonder: people keep complaining about how long it took indoc to take effect (if the boy's a hallucination at the beginning). Assuming that from ME2--when MAJOR and REPEATED Reaper tech/Shep contact first took place-- Indoc was already starting to set on Shep, what sort of effect did info-melding with the asari from Feros, the only known survivor of Reaper Indoc do to Shep's brain?

Why doesn't the prothean VI, or javik himself, detect it than?

They say in the first Mass Effect that you can not tell who is being indoc'd, the process is subtle and devious. But once you are you will turn on friends and well wont be yourself. The Javik says that even his own people turned on him. Led him into a trap before he realized they were turned. My guess is even the Prothean tech had limitation. They weren't the gods we made them to be, they can make  mistakes.

[Golferguy758]

Kiara wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

JTP117 wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I've posted it before in other threads but it bares posting again in the main thread. The indoctrination theory makes no sense. Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated. In fact it's the exact opposite with Shepard being assured again and again that they are indeed Shepard and they are fully in control of themselves.

To suddenly come out and say "no Shepard was being mind controlled" is stupid. Shepard's death on the other hand was something that was hinted at numerous times during the game. The ending we got with Shepard dying was clearly the ending BioWare intended.

Now, after all the outcry, BioWare will probably come out with some DLC that says the whole ending was a dream or something but to act like it was something they planned all along is foolish.

You mean besides the fact that he is alive in one ending? Or the fact that he is showing every single symptom of indoctrination stated by the codex itself? You guys who come in here and say we are wrong need to start getting more proof than "this is dumb"

Agreed, counter arguments should be just that, COUNTER ARGUMENTS with evidence to support them.  So yeah, this ties in to what I just posted.  Discuss new ideas, and present evidence that supports them.  Is that so hard?  Of course, in the case of some counter arguments, the reason that other people's evidence is comprised of "this is dumb" is because the evidence points to indoctrination theory rather than horrible writing.

Another thing to point out is the other Indocrinated characters TIM, Saren, Doctor Kenson, none of them believed they were being controled either. Since we play as Shepard we can only share Shepard's POV, what he knows we know. What Shepard believe's we believe.

Shepard isn't heavily indoctrinated, he still seems to have free will of his mind. The control from TIM conroled Shepard body but not the way he thought. That is not like any indoctrination I have seen.

I am Curious though if it does turn out to be ID, wonder how the story would end if a players Shepard chooses the control or Synthesis? Are they just gonna say "to bad your Shepard was taken over by the Reapers" ? and they don't really get anything out of that kinda ending. I mean I can see the Shepard that chooses Destroy, wakes up and contines the fight for real. But what about the others I wonder.. ID shepard wakes convinced the reapers don't need to be destroyed or...? hmm  pure speculation of course lol Hope to hear news of this Ending issue soon.. driving me nuts..

If they chose control or synth, I can only speculate  (har har see what i did there?) the game can sitll play out to an extent. I.e. you see the undoing of civilization etc. But honestly in ME2 you could kill Shepard in the suicide mission. if you did you were stuck with it and couldn't import. Game over, man. game over. They aren't above forcing you down a certain path when it comes to delivering a story. See also Udina councilor, Council always goes back to Turian Asari, Human, and Salarian. etc

[greywardencommander]

Kiara wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

JTP117 wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I've posted it before in other threads but it bares posting again in the main thread. The indoctrination theory makes no sense. Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated. In fact it's the exact opposite with Shepard being assured again and again that they are indeed Shepard and they are fully in control of themselves.

To suddenly come out and say "no Shepard was being mind controlled" is stupid. Shepard's death on the other hand was something that was hinted at numerous times during the game. The ending we got with Shepard dying was clearly the ending BioWare intended.

Now, after all the outcry, BioWare will probably come out with some DLC that says the whole ending was a dream or something but to act like it was something they planned all along is foolish.

You mean besides the fact that he is alive in one ending? Or the fact that he is showing every single symptom of indoctrination stated by the codex itself? You guys who come in here and say we are wrong need to start getting more proof than "this is dumb"

Agreed, counter arguments should be just that, COUNTER ARGUMENTS with evidence to support them.  So yeah, this ties in to what I just posted.  Discuss new ideas, and present evidence that supports them.  Is that so hard?  Of course, in the case of some counter arguments, the reason that other people's evidence is comprised of "this is dumb" is because the evidence points to indoctrination theory rather than horrible writing.

Another thing to point out is the other Indocrinated characters TIM, Saren, Doctor Kenson, none of them believed they were being controled either. Since we play as Shepard we can only share Shepard's POV, what he knows we know. What Shepard believe's we believe.

Shepard isn't heavily indoctrinated, he still seems to have free will of his mind. The control from TIM conroled Shepard body but not the way he thought. That is not like any indoctrination I have seen.

I am Curious though if it does turn out to be ID, wonder how the story would end if a players Shepard chooses the control or Synthesis? Are they just gonna say "to bad your Shepard was taken over by the Reapers" ? and they don't really get anything out of that kinda ending. I mean I can see the Shepard that chooses Destroy, wakes up and contines the fight for real. But what about the others I wonder.. ID shepard wakes convinced the reapers don't need to be destroyed or...? hmm  pure speculation of course lol Hope to hear news of this Ending issue soon.. driving me nuts..

My idea accounts for people who choose Synthesis or Control by having them wake up as they would in destroy but indoctrinated and some small amount of perceived free will (like Saren) with the chance if EMS, Paragon/Renegade/Charm/Persuade etc is high enough to do a Saren and throw it off temporarily and sacrifice yourself to save everyone/have a boss fight with Harbinger etc. This would be the 'bittersweet ending' (as well as Shep possibly dying if not indoctrinated but not a high enough EMS/Charm/Persuade etc)
http://social.biowar.../index/10350970 

[wathc me tyep]

Doug M wrote...

Regarding the Indoctrination Theory (IDT), it works for several reasons, and we can let BioWare (BW) work out the specifics:

• Even if it isn't intentional, IDT give BW an opportunity to have created the most immersive experience ever created in any entertainment medium.
• "You are Commander Shepard" is the premise of the trilogy.  The ultimate incarnation of this is for players to experience indoctrination the same way Shepard does, and then to reject this and embrace a heroic determination to fight against an outcome that is unacceptable, and to fight for all we hold dear in the ME universe.  Exactly as Shepard does.  By experiencing these emotions, you have become Commander Shepard in the truest way that a vehicle of interactive entertainment can provide.
• The Red/Green/Blue choices can segue into either an ending or a climactic confrontation in several ways: A) Green or Blue shows that you were indoctrinated, and the end is determined by how much Effective Military Strength (EMS) you have.  Not enough EMS, and the Reapers wipe out the fleet and the cycle continues.  Just barely enough EMS creates a lose-lose scenario where the both sides suffer heavy losses, but neither side can force a victory, and the galaxy spends the next several thousand years at war.  Enough EMS means the fleet barely wins a victory through attrition, and the galactic civilization spends the next several decades pushing the Reapers back out to Dark Space.  Any way you slice it, the cycle continues.  The Red choice shows that Shepard broke free from indoctrination, and the backlash weakens Harbinger in the same way that Saren's death weakened Sovereign.  Shepard is found by the LI (if there is one) or other squadmates (if any are left alive) or other ground forces (if there's enough EMS), saved, gets back on her/his feet to finish the fight.  S/he has a dramatic final controntation with Harbinger (to be addressed in Point 4 below), after which EMS determines if there is enough firepower to destroy Harbinger, or if Shepard is only able to cripple Harbinger.  If there is enough EMS to destroy Harbinger, the other Reapers are weakened, which lowers the EMS threshhold for a fleet victory and opens up the possibility of a high enough EMS giving an ending where the Reapers are all destoryed in a decisive victory, and the cycle is broken.  If Harbinger is only crippled, it escapes and the rest of the Reapers are destoryed or defeated.  Harbinger goes into hiding, creating a looming unknown threat at some unknown point in the future.
• The final confrontation with Harbinger can take a couple of different shapes: A) A thrilling action setpiece where your combat skills are put to the ultimate test, or The Red/Green/Blue Choice was the final struggle, and your EMS determines the fate of the galaxy.  There are ultimately two ways to create a climactic challenge for the player; either using the game's combat system for the challenge, or use the game's choice system for the challenge.  Both are equally prevalent throughout the trilogy, and a strong argument could be made for either one.  For combat, it's the more vicerally satisfying vehicle to use for the final challenge.  There's more adrenaline and excitement, which, when successful, leaves the player with the greater sense of accomplishment and pride in their player skill.  On the other hand, it's also what every other shooter does for their final challenges.  For choice, it's more cognitively demanding challenge, where the player must pay attention to and think about what's happening, what they've seen, and grapple with the consequences of their choice.  It's a departure from other game fanchises and their final challenges, and stands out as a final result whose outcome has been determined by your choices throughout the entire game, not just by how good your aim is.  Then again, after the first playthrough, the thrill of making the "right" choice isn't there anymore, and making a choice doesn't scale with difficulty level.  Also, successive playthroughs can turn into boring grinds just to get the "best" ending if your combat skill isn't a factor in the final challenge.
• Perhaps there's a way to mesh combat and choice into the final challenge.  I don't know how that could be done, but it's an interesting thought.
• Another interesting thought: Being that Shepard is so strong willed, perhaps it is possible for her/him to be the first person who could be permanently indoctrinated, thus becoming a permanent agent of Harbinger, like a lieutenant.  This would be a very Darth Vader-y thing to do, and a terrifying ending.

[*]This is neat and prety much exactly how I imagine the events to unfold.

[Rob Psyence]

There is some confusion a couple people are having regarding th effects of indoctorination. (a couple pages back). I point to the books and at Paul Grayson. There is a point in the ascenion book I think where Grayson wants to protect Gillian so he sets the coordinates on his shuttle to get as far away as possible in the opposite direction. However, unknown to him, the reaper indoctorinating him forces Grayson to set the coordinates TOWARD Gillian and intentionally makes Grayson think and see otherwise.

This was before the reaper has full control of him and when Grayson still had the will to fight back. Meaning that Harbinger could have an influence on Shepard's mind even a small bit to make him see a boy perhaps. Let alone the final battle where Shepard is severely susceptible as a result of the trauma sustained from the splash damage of Harbinger's laser.

Before hand, its asked "how come the prothean vi or javik can't sense it?" It could be argued that a reaper released its influence at that time. The dreams happen only three times, these could be the only times bar the beginning and end of the game that a reaper was forcing its influence on Shepard. They weren't influencing Grayson constantly, sometimes they held back to bide its time. Indoctorination happened faster for Grayson as a result of being injected with reaper nanites.

But shepard has had contact with reaper tech over a more spread out amount of time and has a stronger will, so naturally a reaper would have to bide its time until Shepard became more susceptible and only use mental suggestions in the mean time.

I'd also like to add that in my second playthrough I just got to the second dream and the boy suddenly says "Are you here to kill me?" and imediately after Mordin's voice pops up and says something like "you need to do what you must." I think it was from the genophage mission, if anyone can quote it exactly please do. I just thought that was odd.

Modifié par Rob Psyence, 21 mars 2012 - 03:08 .

[MasterDracoStoc]

I like the Immunizing effect with Shiala (The asari you can save from the Thorian). In the game you can get a message from Shiala saying that she is indoctrinated, but is being held together by the colonist. Shepard's squadmates could be the reason Shepard resists all the Indoc. stuff he should have gone through, and being close to Harby could be what causes the endings.

[Direwolf0294]

chkchkchk wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated.

Here are two things off the top of my head:
1) Shep has dreams full of whispering and ghostly shapes, i.e. symptoms of indoctrination described in the codex.
2) Shep's been inside a Reaper, has fought several, and was zapped by Object Rho.

Bad dreams after witnessing a bunch of horrors and failing to save a child. Yeah, that totally means Shepard's being mind controlled. It's not like BioWare came out and said they want to make Shepard seem more human and emotional and this is one of the ways they're doing it.

My companions have also been inside and fought Reapers. Are they indoctrinated too? At this point most of the universe has fought Reapers. Are they also being controlled?

Seriously guys you're clutching at straws here.

[WebFoo]

FemaleTengu wrote...

- As the game progresses, you can understand what the Reapers say. I swear I heard a few Marauders mutter "Shepard" as I shot them dead, in London. 

So I'm not crazy.... I was totally thinking I heard that too!  But just dismissed it.  And it seemed like it was only in London.

[Golferguy758]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

chkchkchk wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated.

Here are two things off the top of my head:
1) Shep has dreams full of whispering and ghostly shapes, i.e. symptoms of indoctrination described in the codex.
2) Shep's been inside a Reaper, has fought several, and was zapped by Object Rho.

Bad dreams after witnessing a bunch of horrors and failing to save a child. Yeah, that totally means Shepard's being mind controlled. It's not like BioWare came out and said they want to make Shepard seem more human and emotional and this is one of the ways they're doing it.

My companions have also been inside and fought Reapers. Are they indoctrinated too? At this point most of the universe has fought Reapers. Are they also being controlled?

Seriously guys you're clutching at straws here.

None of them were hit by Object Rho, They haven't fought as many reapers or come into as close contact with them as Shepard. Nor been hounded as much as he has by the Big Bad 9 Wonder fi anyone will get this reference...)

They may be clutching at emerrrgencyyy indoctrination ports, but it's seriously the only way this mess of an "ending" could really happen. Beyond space magic, anyways.

Worst case, they're wrong. Best case. They put together the pieces  that only people who have really really paid attention to the lore of ME throughout the games together.