57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Silhouett3]

Rob Psyence wrote...

I'd also like to add that in my second playthrough I just got to the second dream and the boy suddenly says "Are you here to kill me?" and imediately after Mordin's voice pops up and says something like "you need to do what you must." I think it was from the genophage mission, if anyone can quote it exactly please do. I just thought that was odd.

Yes. You will hear various quotes from supporting characters if you stand still and don't try to reach the boy in those dream sequences. Nobody paid much attention to those, even me.  

Modifié par Silhouett3, 21 mars 2012 - 03:15 .

[titusrsoooooo1337]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

chkchkchk wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated.

Here are two things off the top of my head:
1) Shep has dreams full of whispering and ghostly shapes, i.e. symptoms of indoctrination described in the codex.
2) Shep's been inside a Reaper, has fought several, and was zapped by Object Rho.

Bad dreams after witnessing a bunch of horrors and failing to save a child. Yeah, that totally means Shepard's being mind controlled. It's not like BioWare came out and said they want to make Shepard seem more human and emotional and this is one of the ways they're doing it.

My companions have also been inside and fought Reapers. Are they indoctrinated too? At this point most of the universe has fought Reapers. Are they also being controlled?

Seriously guys you're clutching at straws here.

 

Indoctrination in the codex CLEARLY explains that indoc involves whispers and clouded visions or thoughts that are used to influence the indoctrinated. This would explain why the dreams have whispers, voices of those shepard had lost or knew were at stake, and the spitting image of those he cannot save (the child). 

and your squad mates didn't have contact with Shiala (an indoctrinated asari), nor were unconcious for 2 days in the same building as the exposed Object Rho. 

[Rob Psyence]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

chkchkchk wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated.

Here are two things off the top of my head:
1) Shep has dreams full of whispering and ghostly shapes, i.e. symptoms of indoctrination described in the codex.
2) Shep's been inside a Reaper, has fought several, and was zapped by Object Rho.

Bad dreams after witnessing a bunch of horrors and failing to save a child. Yeah, that totally means Shepard's being mind controlled. It's not like BioWare came out and said they want to make Shepard seem more human and emotional and this is one of the ways they're doing it.

My companions have also been inside and fought Reapers. Are they indoctrinated too? At this point most of the universe has fought Reapers. Are they also being controlled?

Seriously guys you're clutching at straws here.

Are your companions as important as Shepard? Have they been having conversations with reapers? Other than just standing there. Are you ignoring the facts that in the ending scenes Shepard is forced to shoot anderson and has tendrils of oily shadow at the fringes of his mind/the screen? Why does he hold his head in pain a few times? Why is TIM bathed in blue light of paragon and Anderson in the red light of renegade? This is an intentional attempt by BioWare to make the player subconsciously want to side with TIM who is PROVEN to be Indoctorinated and to avoid siding with Anderson even though doing so results in Shepard being alive...think about that for a second...hmm

[Terran235]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

chkchkchk wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Not once during the entire game or series is it hinted at that Shepard is indoctrinated.

Here are two things off the top of my head:
1) Shep has dreams full of whispering and ghostly shapes, i.e. symptoms of indoctrination described in the codex.
2) Shep's been inside a Reaper, has fought several, and was zapped by Object Rho.

Bad dreams after witnessing a bunch of horrors and failing to save a child. Yeah, that totally means Shepard's being mind controlled. It's not like BioWare came out and said they want to make Shepard seem more human and emotional and this is one of the ways they're doing it.

My companions have also been inside and fought Reapers. Are they indoctrinated too? At this point most of the universe has fought Reapers. Are they also being controlled?

Seriously guys you're clutching at straws here.

Read the op before you post. Otherwise your going to go in circles, it has been stated why the indoc theory holds water. If you accept the ending at face value, you are just a conformist. The codex on indoctrination states the symptoms clearly.

Modifié par Terran235, 21 mars 2012 - 03:30 .

[greywardencommander]

Having seen a few points that synthesis/control might be legitimately wanted by some I have updated the post and also include the crucible still having the three options but destroy is essentially an off button for the Reapers and nothing more

Here is my post:
http://social.biowar.../index/10350970

In my opinion the only way it would work in terms of the out
of game if Indoctrination Theory is true is for the DLC to have always been
intended to be free (or at least very cheap).

 

Also like it or not technically DLC is part of 'ME3' so when
they say ME3 will give an ACTUAL ending, they COULD be including the DLC in
that. I think they could very well have intended it to 'be obvious' what they
were doing, breaking the 4th wall and carrying it on with DLC, but it was
poorly executed. MAYBE. After all Casey Hudson said in the app that
indoctrination was considered but the gameplay mechanic made that aspect very
difficult in terms of controlling Shep but also being controlled by the
Reapers. This breaking down the 4th wall and having it like I suggest below,
could make it work as Bioware intended.

It's possible the ending is just completely garbage and they
thought it was great, the following outlines how, either way, they can make DLC
fix the ending without changing anything about the current game (those who love
the ending as it is can just not download it if they want surely)

 

If they did it like this Bioware WOULD NOT have to change
the current ending at all, and can claim it was always their intention and most
people will be pretty happy and remember it as the biggest twist and breaking
the 4th wall in the history of not just gaming, but entertainment. Bioware come
across as a company that listens, in a year from now all will be forgiven.

 

Either way whether intended or not Bioware can make this
theory work and save face without also saying uh guys you needed to choose
destroy otherwise your Shep is indoctrinated and doesn't appear in the end,
here's how.

 

People point out the flaws in the theory, there are a few of
course, but no more, and i'd argue less, than in the sudden space magic ending
which was poorly executed with gaping plot holes.

 

That is UNLESS those seemingly awful flaws were deliberately
done to make you realise it wasn't happening anywhere but as a mental
representation of Shepard's willpower and fight against the attempted
indoctrination after being hit by Harbinger's beam. People also argue that
indoctrination doesn't happen like that, so to counter that

a) we don't know what happens in the brain when fighting it

the codex mentions dreams and hallucinations so it's
possible and

c) my outline below accounts for the possibility that other
than the Rachni Queen noone has ever bested indoctrination thus in theory
Shepard can't break it other than temporarily like Saren etc.

although by the same vein his exposure to their technology,
the thorian etc may all add up to his already amazing strength of will and make
him the first known person to fully resist

 

They also point that there's nothing to suggest that Shepard
was indoctrinated during the series, that's true in ME1 and ME2. That's
because, the only possible start of the indoctrination process is after Arrival,
2 days of lying there exposed to a Reaper artifact. After this there are little
nods, the dreams, the ocassional growl, the humming etc. However it is not
saying that he is fully indoctrinated, more the groundwork has begun (it takes
Saren and TIM years to be funny indoctrinated). Also the starchild appears to
smirk when you select control, he's won the battle for your mind.

 

I think you could still have the Indoctrination Theory work
regardless of choice (if they decided regardless of whether they intended to or
not) by having ending dlc where control and synthesis have you submit to
indoctrination (destroy breaking out of it) so you wake up alive and
indoctrinated but then at the last minute in a Saren way you are able to
temporarily resist it and end the fight and win but the bittersweet part is
that your Shepard can be indoctrinated and/or dies, still allowing for a happy
ending. Though the happy ending isn't the part people are bothered about, it's
the sense of closure and something that MAKES sense, rather than a huge plot
device deus ex machine thrown into the end for no apparent reason. In fact it
could be possible that without a high enough EMS
or Paragon/Renegade/Charm etc you can't break the indoctrination so the Reapers
can still win, or you beat Harbinger but the fleet gets wiped out. You could
still have the Crucible and the three options can remain control, synthesis and
destroy (maybe with this option being a massive off switch essentially for the
Reapers alone, or shutting down their defences allowing them to be destroyed,
thus HIGH EMS is needed). That way anyone who genuinely likes the idea of
control (perhaps a real Renegade) or synthesis (the ultimate solution to
prevent geth-quarian like wars perhaps) can still have that.

 

Wishful thinking maybe but that way the ending DLC could
still be fundamentally the same regardless of final choice at current ending,
and showing all your squad mates and forces you have in the epic battle, with
cutscenes or seeing them fight (like in the DA:O battle) and even having ME2
style tactics that ultimately you can screw up and lose. The exception can be
that in the case of carrying over the other two ending scenarios (control and
destroy) you can throw off the indoctrination right at the end near Harbinger
(maybe the Reapers were intending you to get somewhere and then you resist)
like Saren and blow up Harbinger or fight him or something.

 

THEN you can have the cutscenes with dialogue/text of all
that you've saved, showing how your decisions have impacted, the Quarians, the
Geth, the Krogan etc as well as if your Shepard survived seeing them as well
with your squad mates etc. Or if say the Reapers won have cutscenes showing
that etc.

Modifié par greywardencommander, 21 mars 2012 - 04:10 .

[Legion109]

I don't really believe that Bioware planned the IT but I do think Bioware would be fools not to roll with it now that so much of ME3 lines up with it and I wanted to thank you Mass Effectors for giving me hope that ME3 can be fixed.

- We don't hold lines in Las Vegas we do lines -

Indoception - the belief it was an Indoctrination in a Hallucination caused by the Indoctrination in the Dreams.

[Terran235]

You live in vegas?! ME TOO HAHA awesome, Holding the line with my fellow desert casino brothers. haha

[Rob Psyence]

Legion109 wrote...

I don't really believe that Bioware planned the IT but I do think Bioware would be fools not to roll with it now that so much of ME3 lines up with it and I wanted to thank you Mass Effectors for giving me hope that ME3 can be fixed.

- We don't hold lines in Las Vegas we do lines -

Indoception - the belief it was an Indoctrination in a Hallucination caused by the Indoctrination in the Dreams.

I'm kind of in between, i'm not sure if bioware planned indoctorination to the point of specifically not including a true end. But I do think that they were definitely implying an indoc attempt lol and at this point I'd like them to make a dlc buttoning up the end, originally planned or not

[aryaproudmoore]

This theory is the one that make the most sense to me. Also the one who gives Bioware an opportunity to continue with the story and fix the endings. I wrote an ending based on this.

http://social.biowar.../index/10359624

Hope some of you check it out!

[Ms_Alison_Gunn]

If Bioware intentionally wrote the game with this IT in mind then they scored a win at Shakespearian proportions. If not, then they would be fools to ignore this and attempt something else. Everything fits too perfectly for them to blatantly ignore IT.

[cmagallon]

Ms_Alison_Gunn wrote...

If Bioware intentionally wrote the game with this IT in mind then they scored a win at Shakespearian proportions. If not, then they would be fools to ignore this and attempt something else. Everything fits too perfectly for them to blatantly ignore IT.

Even if it was totally serendipitous and they had no intention of doing so in the first place, I agree the setup is perfect.

[zakaryzb]

So I was reading the codex entry on the Crucible and it states that the only thing the Alliance knows about it, is that it some how uses the power of mass relays. This means that when the crucible fires, the mass relays WILL be used in some way to defeat the Reapers. One could take this to mean that the end was real and since the relays were in fact used in the ending cinematic as it said they would be from an early point in the game.

Or, the ending played out how Shepard "thought" it would as so IT suggests. Either way, this piece of evidence seems like it could go both ways...

[Legion109]

zakaryzb wrote...

So I was reading the codex entry on the Crucible and it states that the only thing the Alliance knows about it, is that it some how uses the power of mass relays. This means that when the crucible fires, the mass relays WILL be used in some way to defeat the Reapers. One could take this to mean that the end was real and since the relays were in fact used in the ending cinematic as it said they would be from an early point in the game.

Or, the ending played out how Shepard "thought" it would as so IT suggests. Either way, this piece of evidence seems like it could go both ways...

Its hard for me to imagine a writer saying I got the ending for this  There all done.

- We don't hold lines in Las Vegas we do lines -

Indoception - the belief it was an Indoctrination in a Hallucination caused by the Indoctrination in the Dreams.

[RADIUMEYEZ]

Check this out it was updated www.youtube.com/watch

[Bawbtheepic]

Oh hey its Radium

[RADIUMEYEZ]

Bawbtheepic wrote...

Oh hey its Radium

Hello

[streamlock]

I tell you what-I had been holding out hope that the shipped ending was bunk for no other reason that it was totally whacked. The thought of indoct. had crossed my mind (evidence for it) but I brushed it off as just the illusive man using his newly found tech.

After watching one of those videos on Youtube-(that 21:30 minute one), my hope that this was all intended just went from a sliver to a quater pie.

That is a whole lot of compelling evidence. I'm a data driven person by nature-so there you have it. I don't fully subscribe to it yet-but it would make sense.....

Hmmm-You remember Martin Sheen's interview "I'm not through yet" or something of the sort....Maybe-just maybe.

[RorickHuon]

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

Check this out it was updated www.youtube.com/watch

James Vega segment -dead- I am in tears!!!

[Bawbtheepic]

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

Bawbtheepic wrote...

Oh hey its Radium

Hello

What have you been up to?


Got 10 new boxes for my Wall 

[Bawbtheepic]

I believe that BioWare is Indoctrinated and the Reapers are on their way now

[Abram730]

Well if you are not indoctrinated then then there would need to be somebody in Shepard's place and TIM fits that.

[RADIUMEYEZ]

Bawbtheepic wrote...

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

Bawbtheepic wrote...

Oh hey its Radium

Hello

What have you been up to?


Got 10 new boxes for my Wall 

Oh nothing just been lurking through the forum randomly today

[Bawbtheepic]

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

Bawbtheepic wrote...

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

Bawbtheepic wrote...

Oh hey its Radium

Hello

What have you been up to?


Got 10 new boxes for my Wall 

Oh nothing just been lurking through the forum randomly today

You believe they are indoctrinated?

Modifié par Bawbtheepic, 21 mars 2012 - 04:31 .

[RADIUMEYEZ]

Bawbtheepic wrote...

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

Bawbtheepic wrote...

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

Bawbtheepic wrote...

Oh hey its Radium

Hello

What have you been up to?


Got 10 new boxes for my Wall 

Oh nothing just been lurking through the forum randomly today

You believe they are indoctrinated?

Yes and I really hope Bioware uses this for an ending extension.