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[policenauts]

the codex states following in the indoctrination entry:

"as time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences."

the ghostly part is the one that /could/ be a hint regarding the ghostly star child.

[greywardencommander]

Dein Justin wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Dein Justin wrote...

I argued this before, but since there were too many posts that was not about discussion, it got buried. The argument was not featured in the OP, so here goes:

As much as I want to believe the indoctrination theory, in gameplay-wise how does someone continue writing for the three endings? We all do believe that somewhere along the storyline, a singularity should happen whereby the Reapers should be dealt with post-indoctrination. However, given the three endings, only Destroy is the only viable solution that provides post-indoctrination gameplay. Unless BW wants to patch up the ending with pre-rendered cutscenes catering to all solutions and variables..

So, how can somebody be playing the game if they chose synthesis/control? By being the enemy ala DA:Origins DLC that made you be the darkspawn?

I accounted for that in my thread (and in my post which pasted it), I'm of the idea of the last 10 mins being a mental representation of your internal struggle at the end against Harbinger's control
 social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9727423
basically they could have your indoctrinated Shepard still carrying on with some aspect of perceived free will (to enable you to get to the end) but add in certain dialogue etc and crucially an extra 'saren-like' break of indoctrination cutscene to temporarily fight harbinger and/or sacrifice yourself to save the galaxy - the ultimate bittersweet ending - sacrifice but the galaxy lives on. This extra saren-like scene can be based on your EMS & Paragon/Renegade/Charm/Intimidate/Persuade or whatever. If you don't have it high enough you can't break free - Reapers Win because they destroy your fleet as well. If it is high enough, you break free destroy the Reapers and commit suicide or sacrifice yourself in some other way Bioware sees fit. If you have a high enough EMS you get to the crucible which still has the same three functions as presented in the dream (it was based on reality), you can choose any of them (some claimed they thought synthesis was beautiful, and others might like the ultimate Renegade option, there can be an AI starchild or whatever, maybe not) and destroy is either shut down the Reapers completely or (i think) let down their defences making it possible to destroy them more effectively - your High or Low EMS affects how many casualties you get, your crew surviving etc and if its way too low Reapers still win so if higher but still low win the war but lose Shepard and other key characters etc. 

My idea also includes having ME2 style end tactics where you choose what all the fleets do etc either prior to the crucible or 'in the final battle' having disarmed the Reapers defences. You can also have scenes of your crew members just being sheer awesome, in their own little cutscene, similar to ME2 where you show the other team covering you etc. Then at the end you see the aftermath, maybe even see your Shep and the crew and other key characters in a cutscene. Heck even have a DA:O type aftermath ending where you can up to each character and hear them talk about what happened, as well as what they intend to do. Then have an epilogue with cutscenes (with dialogue or text underneath the scenes) showing the consequences of all your actions, the Geth-Quarians, the Krogans, what happens to each of your crew (Tali becoming an Admiral of the fleet or the new leader of the Quarians on their homeworld or something etc)

Have updated my insights on this issue on your thread. Personally, as endings go, I'm okay with ME3. Yes, I'm invested emotionally to my Shep, but they did say it is the end of the Shepard saga. Will hate it if they pull a Halo and do an ME4 with Shepard as main character because we all know that the ME universe should be huge and there should be other characters worth mentioning (Major Coats looks like a good character tie-in). But I also do like the possibility of the ID theory holding true, only am skeptical on how the game could end gameplay-wise. If you're gonna be indoctrinated, then what's the purpose of playing without dealing with the Reapers? (Heck, they also did a Halo by introducing a more master-force behind the Reapers, kinda like Halo with the Flood and Forerunners..and more unsolved tales of the dark-energied sun near Haelstrom)....maybe that's what they meant when they said they tried incorporating indoctrination in the game before, but it could not be done due to player not having control..but then again..they could pull it off.  the waiting is killing me...

Thanks to your first post I realised I wasn't clarifying enough so I did at the end by putting a if you have this this happens etc. I also cut out where I repeated myself. I also pointed out that possibly having Shiala meld with you gives you extra resistance because of Thorian influence, something we might have been expected to pick up on...just a thought.

[CitadelSurfer]

Ms_Alison_Gunn wrote...

If Bioware intentionally wrote the game with this IT in mind then they scored a win at Shakespearian proportions. If not, then they would be fools to ignore this and attempt something else. Everything fits too perfectly for them to blatantly ignore IT.

Couldn't agree more. They would be stupid to not roll with this if the IT theory was not what they went for at all. If they went with it they would put themselves at first place for story writing and their reputation (which hasn't been too great recently with bioware being gunned down with the whole DLC thing) . Also if they release the continued ending as DLC and they do it well, they could well be crowned DLC kings! Rather than having DLC painted on their foreheads as a bad thing. 

Either way it was a brilliant game, brilliant ending (if IT is true!) and If they wanted to extend it a little bit with some DLC I will most likely pay for it. However if your listening Bioware, it should really be free!

Think about it if they continued the ending in DLC which was free they would get so much good feedback from this. Literally it would shove the "from ashes" dlc controversy right under the rug.

Holding the line here! 

[Dein Justin]

sunnie7699 wrote...

darkcerb wrote...

Dein Justin wrote...

I argued this before, but since there were too many posts that was not about discussion, it got buried. The argument was not featured in the OP, so here goes:

As much as I want to believe the indoctrination theory, in gameplay-wise how does someone continue writing for the three endings? We all do believe that somewhere along the storyline, a singularity should happen whereby the Reapers should be dealt with post-indoctrination. However, given the three endings, only Destroy is the only viable solution that provides post-indoctrination gameplay. Unless BW wants to patch up the ending with pre-rendered cutscenes catering to all solutions and variables..

So, how can somebody be playing the game if they chose synthesis/control? By being the enemy ala DA:Origins DLC that made you be the darkspawn?

What happens if your commander dies in me2?

Exactly.

Oh snap!

Haha....that would make it simple for the coders then..put up a "Critical Mission Failure" right after the end of credit roll..at least a cutscene ending ala KOTOR would actually do if it comes to it for synthesis/control...not a stargazer cutscene please..Buzz's VA is just...so disappointing.

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Any news since yesterday?

[greywardencommander]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Any news since yesterday?

What news was yesterday? But no nothing from Bioware on the ending fix (if any) or an explanation of the endings if we didn't get how great it was or even on those affected by the import fix (gave up and ran a distorted shep instead) which hasn't been since the 9th meaning a lot still are yet to play/can't play because they can't import their faces or in worse cases their saves are wrong.

[Lucypo0n]

ShepherdofSouls wrote...

 Not sure if this might mean a dream or not,or if its even relevant.But at the endgame sequence,the chasm right before you get to the control panel where TIM is,theres water coming down out of the structure with the dark hallway you just exited.Just tryin to help.Look out to the sides of the structure when you on the catwalk,by the shifting walls.

I noticed that, too. I thought it had a slightly reddish tint so I thought perhaps it was blood seeping down from all the dead bodies, but I wasn't sure.

[greywardencommander]

I really hope they're not planning on waiting until the 6th April regarding the ending or if they are TELL us they'll make a proper announcement then regarding the ending, then at the event maybe they'll even show DLC to prove the doubters wrong or even just say the fans are right it was indoctrination and that DLC will expand on it. Or even that the DLC they're releasing will explain the endings in more context ANYTHING

[Vahilor]

I hope they'll do anything and the 6th of April is not too ling to wait.. better they make somthing worth it instead of somthing quick and unsatisfieing... like the actual ending with no explanations...

[RyanHensley2010]

policenauts wrote...

the codex states following in the indoctrination entry:

"as time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences."

the ghostly part is the one that /could/ be a hint regarding the ghostly star child.

Also, in the dream sequences there are not only ghostly figures, but shep hears voices, another tell-tale sign of indoctrination according to in-game events. (This is mentioned on the derelict reaper in ME2)

[greywardencommander]

Vahilor wrote...

I hope they'll do anything and the 6th of April is not too ling to wait.. better they make somthing worth it instead of somthing quick and unsatisfieing... like the actual ending with no explanations...

I just mean in terms of an announcement, obviously game content I wouldn't want rushed. Their excuse at the minute is that it's to allow as many to play as possible which is an odd choice of words perhaps supporting the theory (admittedly it could be so as not to spoil it), why not just keep with the 'we're listening to feedback line' as they had done and are still doing.

Modifié par greywardencommander, 21 mars 2012 - 08:57 .

[Vahilor]

greywardencommander wrote...

Vahilor wrote...

I hope they'll do anything and the 6th of April is not too ling to wait.. better they make somthing worth it instead of somthing quick and unsatisfieing... like the actual ending with no explanations...

I just mean in terms of an announcement, obviously game content I wouldn't want rushed. Their excuse at the minute is that it's to allow as many to play as possible which is an odd choice of words perhaps supporting the theory (admittedly it could be so as not to spoil it), why not just keep with the 'we're listening to feedback line' as they had done and are still doing.

Ah ok =)

[Martukis]

So I've been thinking about an interesting dynamic in regard to this theory - assuming the EMS impact on the end choices represents Shep's will versus the indoctrination, why would merely cleansing the Collector base reduce this? Unless, of course, Shep has some hope of TIM using it to hurt the reapers, or perhaps TIM is using technology and such recovered to weaken the Reaper's indoctrination capabilities. Then again, maybe TIM became a bit higher priority in possession of such technology, and thus the Reapers split their efforts. Of course, there could be a dozen other reasons, I just thought this was interesting.

[nyrocron]

Thies worries me: https://twitter.com/...188923588579329

I mean, if IT is true I'm also fine with the ending and only expanding (not changing) it, but this could lead to them not doing anything.

Modifié par nyrocron, 21 mars 2012 - 09:45 .

[Pezza360]

I am 99% convinced that the indoctrination theory is right. There are so many things which point to it.

I haven't really seen anyone mention these particular details yet, but I'm not really prepared to sift through 768 pages of incredible fan theories.

I had some deja vus during the ending sequence.

Of course there are many more obvious bits of evidence in favour of the IT but these are some interesting things to note that I hven't seen (At least not all strung together) :

The final charge - You are running towards the beam in London which will get you onto the citadel - Remember that final charge in ME1? The one in the Mako, charging to the conduit - in principle, the same thing. (For a recap, watch from 5:35-6.20  )
So basically near the end of both games you are charging towards a back door to the citadel, with one or more Mako's being destryoed in the process.

After this of course Shepard appears to be hit by Harbingers beam and whites out (Supposedly momentarily).

Up on the citadel, there are bodies piled up everywhere (I still can't figure out what that Keeper is doing, but it cant be killed). Anderson mentions it looks like the Collector Base (He actually mentions it reminds him of the descriptions of it, this may be the whole 'shared memory' effect of indoctrination). The resemblence is there in some form, with the piles of bodies which were on the collector ships in ME2.

Anderson then mentions he sees a wall shift, "re-arranging itself", more or less exactly what one of the indoctrinated scientists says on the Derelict Reaper in ME2. Although the 1M1 numbers you see later on are attachements from the Crucible, here they appear on a ramp in a supposedly ancient, locked out area of the citadel.

He then mentions the chasm, when Shepard gets here he/she too mentions "I'm at the chasm you mentioned", not "I see those shifting walls you mentioned". Here there are the stange moving metal plate things which bear a striking resemblance to the ones on the Shadow Broker ship.

The next room looks almost identical to the Illusive Man's room on Cronos Station. The Illusive Man can end up shooting him in almost the exact same way Saren does, and after this you open the Citadels arms, just like in ME1.

The Catalyst room looks strikingly similar to where (if the indoctrination theory is correct) Shepard is currently lying unconcious. The beam in the center, the two 'options' look like other chunks of reaper tech around the conduit, the structure resembling the Mako (see OP).

My theory here is that the indoctrination can only draw what shepard has in his/her mind. The kid at the beggining WAS real when Shepard saw him playing with the ship (There werent any reapers there yet), but after that was just an illusion, hence everyone else ignoring him and the growling noises.

Everything after the white-out is an indoctrination (I must be the millionth person to say that). And everything here seems to be familiar. The final cutscenes towards the end, Joker escaping the blast wave, ala ME2 (again no sense made, perhaps a surreal aspect of the hallucionation/indoctrination), crash landing on a planet which looks very similar to Virmire from ME1. Whatever planet it is it has 2 moons.

The final cutscene with the Kid and the old man - The planet has two moons, now this cutscene is one of the only things that I feel goes against the IT. Perhaps Shepards indoctrination goes as far to show the consequences of his/her sacrifice? Showing that his crew/close friends escape, live, get busy and populate this planet 
 (Remember the final speech, the bonds between them stronger than reapers etc - the crew/squad is obviously Shepards most valued asset)  .

Anyway I am pretty sure the ending is an ID. How EAware are going to implement closure? I don't know. If its paid DLC i'll be pretty dissappointed.

[Vahilor]

Martukis wrote...

So I've been thinking about an interesting dynamic in regard to this theory - assuming the EMS impact on the end choices represents Shep's will versus the indoctrination, why would merely cleansing the Collector base reduce this? Unless, of course, Shep has some hope of TIM using it to hurt the reapers, or perhaps TIM is using technology and such recovered to weaken the Reaper's indoctrination capabilities. Then again, maybe TIM became a bit higher priority in possession of such technology, and thus the Reapers split their efforts. Of course, there could be a dozen other reasons, I just thought this was interesting.

The TMI implantes Reaper Tech in all his soldiers and IMO they get indoctrinated pretty fast or controlled by the TMI to a certain degree. The TMI still thinks he is in control of himself and his soldiers, but he isn't. The reapers do not have any reason to interfere in his plans, cause the TMI is more occupied in weaken the Alliance and Sheppard and with all the stuff  he plays right into the repars hands. So why stop him ?

[Martukis]

Vahilor wrote...

Martukis wrote...

So I've been thinking about an interesting dynamic in regard to this theory - assuming the EMS impact on the end choices represents Shep's will versus the indoctrination, why would merely cleansing the Collector base reduce this? Unless, of course, Shep has some hope of TIM using it to hurt the reapers, or perhaps TIM is using technology and such recovered to weaken the Reaper's indoctrination capabilities. Then again, maybe TIM became a bit higher priority in possession of such technology, and thus the Reapers split their efforts. Of course, there could be a dozen other reasons, I just thought this was interesting.

The TMI implantes Reaper Tech in all his soldiers and IMO they get indoctrinated pretty fast or controlled by the TMI to a certain degree. The TMI still thinks he is in control of himself and his soldiers, but he isn't. The reapers do not have any reason to interfere in his plans, cause the TMI is more occupied in weaken the Alliance and Sheppard and with all the stuff  he plays right into the repars hands. So why stop him ?

 From the events in Sanctuary, he was seemingly close to developing some form of control over husks - though how much of this was indoctrination playing with their minds is uncertain. I'm also not entirely certain he isn't in control of himself or his soldiers - he may well have sent forces against reapers and they were not seen. I wouldn't be surprised if the forces at the "Cerberus base" were a token fleet, and the real thing was camped out at Omega. Of course this is speculation, but if everything after the charge to the conduit is a hallucination/dream/etc it may not be the case that TIM is completely indoc'd as of yet. Though I imagine he was well on the way - and the willingness to attack human colonies and such may have been an indicator, but to an extent that, too, could serve the greater good in his eyes. After all, many of those places would likely have been like the Citadel before the coup attempt.

[sunnie7699]

Dein Justin wrote...

sunnie7699 wrote...

darkcerb wrote...

Dein Justin wrote...

I argued this before, but since there were too many posts that was not about discussion, it got buried. The argument was not featured in the OP, so here goes:

As much as I want to believe the indoctrination theory, in gameplay-wise how does someone continue writing for the three endings? We all do believe that somewhere along the storyline, a singularity should happen whereby the Reapers should be dealt with post-indoctrination. However, given the three endings, only Destroy is the only viable solution that provides post-indoctrination gameplay. Unless BW wants to patch up the ending with pre-rendered cutscenes catering to all solutions and variables..

So, how can somebody be playing the game if they chose synthesis/control? By being the enemy ala DA:Origins DLC that made you be the darkspawn?

What happens if your commander dies in me2?

Exactly.

Oh snap!

Haha....that would make it simple for the coders then..put up a "Critical Mission Failure" right after the end of credit roll..at least a cutscene ending ala KOTOR would actually do if it comes to it for synthesis/control...not a stargazer cutscene please..Buzz's VA is just...so disappointing.

I agree, if they do end up making an ending DLC (that followed the IT), it would be the easiest option for them to add the 'critical mission failure' screens for synthesis/control and then continue on from the destroy ending after Shep wakes up.
I mean, if they really were planning to have an ending DLC from the start, then this whole stunt could have just been to get us thinking about the weirdness of the ending instead of us just being like 'oh, i died' *reloads from the last save and picks destroy instead of control/synthesis* and not really thinking about it (I think this idea has been proposed before a few hundred pages back).
But what doesn't make sense is, why are they waiting so long to tell us that this was all a stunt (if it was a stunt)? Maybe they thought we would just be satisfied once we figured out the IT and satisfied with knowing that shepard woke up at the end of 'destroy' - that we would just be content to imagine the events from then on for our own Shepard. In that case they weren't planning to have ending DLC at all, but I can't even imagine why they thought we wouldn't want to know what really happened with the crucible and with Anderson and with our squadmates.

Unless they didn't intend for the IT at all, and the endings actually were just the endings, but I think there is just too much evidence for the ending being indoctrination...

OR maybe they did intend for the endings to be longer and more satisfying but they ran out of time after they decided to change the initial script and ARE actually working on ending DLC. I don't knowwww  I just need answers soon because I am practically living on this thread and getting absolutely no uni work done at all haha

[CitadelSurfer]

I am still praying that they have something locked on the disc ready to go. Or there is a secret button prompt that will carry on the game :') I know the probability of that is extremely low but it would be so freaking awesome if it happened!

Either way, like a few people have already said. If Bioware don't roll with this theory I will be disappointed, BUT it has been a right blast discussing this on this thread. Has been the most friendliest thread I have ever seen and have enjoyed taking part in it! Lets pray Bioware stick with this and expand upon it!

Remember they said they wouldn't do any post ME3 DLC but past or present. And they could well have DLC which is happening whilst you are in the hallucination/dream state. I mean how cool would it be to control your LI and your other team member (Garrus ftw) and for the two of you to finish the job and defeat the reapers instead of Shepard?! I think that would be absolutely awesome. Shepard lives and because you kept your team safe for god knows how many years and how loyal they are, they finish the fight for you.

Modifié par CitadelSurfer, 21 mars 2012 - 10:10 .

[michal9o90]

I'm Inviting particularly Bioware workers and ofcourse all gamers to my topic about FTL speed, and joker escaping. I did some calculations for prove that ending is illogical. I hope you will enyoj this

http://social.biowar...ndex/10338578/1

And read post from @rinoe on the 6 page!

[Martukis]

Just to point out, they said it was likely that any DLC would be before or during the events of ME3, not after - but this would a concrete "certainly." With the exception of the retracted facebook post, of course. It may end up being semantics, but I hope they are truly considering feedback and might be willing to change it.

[RyanHensley2010]

Okay so kind of offtopic, but has anyone checked up on news lately? The ending of this game is making headlines worldwide, both online and not. This is incredible...

[greywardencommander]

Martukis wrote...

Just to point out, they said it was likely that any DLC would be before or during the events of ME3, not after - but this would a concrete "certainly." With the exception of the retracted facebook post, of course. It may end up being semantics, but I hope they are truly considering feedback and might be willing to change it.

You could take it as 'post-end' dlc so nothing after 'ending dlc' too maybe 

[CitadelSurfer]

michal9o90 wrote...


I'm Inviting particularly Bioware workers and ofcourse all gamers to my topic about FTL speed, and joker escaping. I did some calculations for prove that ending is illogical. I hope you will enyoj this

http://social.biowar...ndex/10338578/1

And read post from @rinoe on the 6 page!

Amazing Maths work there mate. Good job. We all thought it was fishy and you have just slapped Bioware with a Maths book!

Keep up the good work.