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[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Capeo wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Capeo wrote...

All of you clearly weren't in the PR thread last night, huh? Jessica was talking with us. These ARE the endings people. There is no indoctrination. This cult can disband.

It seems BW is working on something to better explain the ending but this is the ending. It's been her job to collect questions people have about the ending. There's nothing beyond it. You can drop the conspiracy claptrap.

Shes still preaching patience and merely saying to stop jumpng to crazy PR/ Damage Controls speculation. In fact - her conversation was surprising devoid of her commenting on the endings - beyond her commenting she couldn't comment yet.

BS.  She outright said BW thinks most people loved "the ending".  She says after a certain threshhold of players finish the BW will try to clarify "the ending".  She says she disagrees with the movement trying to change "the ending".  She says she's collecting things people didn't understand about "the ending" so the team can clarify "the ending".  And much more.  

Man, the delusion runs deep in this thread.

First of where did she say most people loved "the ending." The best i ahve heard on that is "some people like the ending."

Secondly you ahvent really this thread, have you?

We are not trying to have the ending changed, that is for other threads. In fact most of us beleive the ending should stay in its current form, but with additional parts beeing added to it fully explaining this theory (or another explanation) and giving us proper closure.

Reread what you just wrote, while it speaks of not changing the ending, nothing so far speaks of not adding to the ending and "clarifying" it through that.

[Interslice]

variobunz wrote...

If that is really the ending (wich I still don't believe one bit), BW should have a damn good explanation for this ending!

Well, I mean, this was mentioned earlier, but the whole Mass Effect experience is about player immersion, in which case even the player didn't realize they were being indoctrinated (like any other NPC i.e. Saren). So it would make sense in that context. Also, it's not like people complained about the end of Inception or Newhart because it pulled into question everything that happened and opening the possibility of everything being a dream. But yes, it  would have been nice if there was something in the game a little more noticeable to call into question the endgame.

[Earthborn_Shepard]

All this arguing about whether or not the indoc theory is "true" isn't actually that relevant. Even if they say "no, it's bull****, these are the endings" it's still a very good fan theory and makes a lot more sense. I think it will still be headcanon for many fans.

[chkchkchk]

Here's how ending/epilogue DLC might work.  Sorry if this has been repeated.

Dein Justin wrote...

So, how can somebody be playing the game if they chose synthesis/control?

I propose you wake up no matter what you selected.  Wake up scenarios are below.

- SYNTHESIS:  This choice is like a submissive acceptance of death, so you wake up with LOW WILLPOER.  You've opened yourself to union with the Reapers.  You'll need your squadmates to snap you out of it.  Perhaps Liara's "mindmeld" or the presence of a lover could help.

- CONTROL:  This choice assumes you'll continue to exist as controller of the Reapers, so you wake with STRONGER WILLPOWER in the delusion that you're in control of the Reapers, i.e. saved by egomania.  You have the chance to snap yourself out of it, but friends can help.

- DESTROY:  Wake up with a clear head, ready to hold the line.

And now some possible endings once you're awake.  Perhaps you get a game over instead of "roll credits" if you can't snap out of the indoctrination.

- Reapers win and everyone dies nooooo!!!: synthesis + low EMS
- Reapers defeated, Shep dies, friends die: control + low EMS / synthesis + high EMS
- Reapers defeated, Shep dies, friends live: control + high EMS / destroy + low EMS
- BLUE BABIES UNICORNS ICECREAM : destroy + high EMS

Those are just examples.  There could also be an ending where Shep & friends live, but the galaxy is in ruins.  Basically an ending that implies they bravely hold the line until the Reapers eat them, dying as comrades fighting back-to-back.

Modifié par chkchkchk, 21 mars 2012 - 01:56 .

[Redbelle]

[/quote]

I do apologise props to 
RedBelle then! I'm still getting used to how forums work. I rarely post anything on here but with this ending being so interesting I have ended up living here for the past few days!

I just can't wait any longer hurry up Bioware! 

[/quote]

Aye, that's ok. We're all Shepards here

[CitadelSurfer]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Capeo wrote...

All of you clearly weren't in the PR thread last night, huh? Jessica was talking with us. These ARE the endings people. There is no indoctrination. This cult can disband.

It seems BW is working on something to better explain the ending but this is the ending. It's been her job to collect questions people have about the ending. There's nothing beyond it. You can drop the conspiracy claptrap.

Shes still preaching patience and merely saying to stop jumpng to crazy PR/ Damage Controls speculation. In fact - her conversation was surprising devoid of her commenting on the endings - beyond her commenting she couldn't comment yet.

BS.  She outright said BW thinks most people loved "the ending".  She says after a certain threshhold of players finish the BW will try to clarify "the ending".  She says she disagrees with the movement trying to change "the ending".  She says she's collecting things people didn't understand about "the ending" so the team can clarify "the ending".  And much more.  

Man, the delusion runs deep in this thread.

First of where did she say most people loved "the ending." The best i ahve heard on that is "some people like the ending."

Secondly you ahvent really this thread, have you?

We are not trying to have the ending changed, that is for other threads. In fact most of us beleive the ending should stay in its current form, but with additional parts beeing added to it fully explaining this theory (or another explanation) and giving us proper closure.

Reread what you just wrote, while it speaks of not changing the ending, nothing so far speaks of not adding to the ending and "clarifying" it through that.

Couldn't of said it better myself. 

[Rifneno]

MrFob wrote...

I absolutely agree with you there. Unfortunately BW seems to REALLY like TIM and Cerberus. IMO they should never have had the role they had in ME2 not to mention ME3 or the novels but hey, seems they do so there is nothing we can do about it.

Glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. Cerberus gets far, far too much attention. It's like they're the only indoctrinated bad guys. The only enemies we even get are Reaperized organics, geth (thank you very frickin' much, quarians!), and Cerberus. It's just silly. There's indoctrinated people in all sorts of positions of power but it's all about Cerberus. I heard Allers talking about a story once where she was saying that militaries on Earth are bombing their own people. While granted we can't go back to Earth until the final assault it does go to show how widespread indoctrination problems are. Instead what do we get? One side quest with a jellyfish trying to upload a virus that would totally neuter the hanar homeworld's defenses. Right, because the Reapers couldn't perform whatever hack that stupid box jellyfish was doing. All's safe now. Gah.

There is no evidence. There are indications and lots of those but there is no proof. I was also making clear in my post that the video is very cleverly cut to get the point across and does cut out some parts of the TIM conversation and always interjects quotes from Harbinger to make it's point. That is fair enough and it is a beautiful video but if you have the conversation in game, it is much less clear cut.

Yes, there's a great deal of evidence. If you don't think there is any, then you probably wouldn't take anything except an encrypted text file on the original discs that says "Yes, we planned the indoctrination thing from the start. Signed, Bioware". People have been sent to death row on less evidence than what we have here.
I haven't seen the Youtube videos. But I'm sure that you're right and it's cutting specific, especially damning portions of the conversation. But the thing is, even taking in the whole picture it's still far more indicative of it being Shepard's subconscious than it being real.

Now having said that, I do absolutely hope the theory is true and I would be thrilled to see BW come out and admit it (I put the damn banner in my sig after all) but there are also counter indications and it wouldn't be the first time a writing team has fallen flat of expectations in the last stride of a story. If they planned it all the way, they were extremely subtle about it, more so than BW ever was. So you'll excuse me if I say: I will believe it when I see it.

There's counter indications but not many. And they tend to be weak. The only one that held much weight was the stargazer scene, which they later told us was an easter egg about Buzz Aldrin, aka the worst voice actor in the history of sound. Meaning it's pretty much meaningless. It's a game of weighing the likelihoods. There's clearly far more indications of IT than of this being real. There's a mountain of things that point to IT. A mountain. If you took that pile of evidence back to ancient Greece, they'd assume that the gods lived on top of it.
And no, BW and specifically the ME team has been far more subtle in the past. The Klendagon story, TIM's location, they even slipped the fate of Joker's family in right under our noses. Remember that asari commando getting counseling in the hospital at the Citadel? ... Now I'm depressed. *sigh*

Tiny5th wrote...

Not sure if this has been raised but on playing through the first game again I reached the conduit last night. Right after you go through it and reach the citadel, taking the elevator up the council tower where it is stopped, shep distinctly tells the team to put their helmets on before shooting out the glass. Proving there is no tech on the surface of the tower to give breathable air, and so I doubt there would be in the final scene of 3 either.

Woot. Great catch, congrats.
Speaking of catches, anyone feel that mass relay thing I mentioned earlier has any merit? It seems like a pretty big thing for them to forget about when making the FMV but I'm kind of biased.

[Renew81]

Well if someone believes in the indoctrination theory thats there right and i wont judge
over it , eventough its tempting to believe it it would not make sence why create
the whole ending debacle ? , Why advertise the game with things like , Wildly different
endings ? if there pretty much is not ending assuming the indoctrination theory is true and
its all a dream wich pretty much is no ending at all , i have not seen a statement from bioware
where they say : Wildly different dlc endings.

Some people returned there game ^^ , we all know what the " ending " had brought forward
i also dont see any business advantage in this.. maybe iam wrong , ( i hope i am )
but it seems this has done more harm then good and like i said although its tempting
the whole indoctrination theory , in my humble opinion that pretty much means no ending for me 3.

but at this point ile swallow pretty much everything from bw if it mean ile get to see a
real conclusion that gives answers and closure... ( i know its sad )

[Icinix]

Capeo wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Capeo wrote...

All of you clearly weren't in the PR thread last night, huh? Jessica was talking with us. These ARE the endings people. There is no indoctrination. This cult can disband.

It seems BW is working on something to better explain the ending but this is the ending. It's been her job to collect questions people have about the ending. There's nothing beyond it. You can drop the conspiracy claptrap.

Shes still preaching patience and merely saying to stop jumpng to crazy PR/ Damage Controls speculation. In fact - her conversation was surprising devoid of her commenting on the endings - beyond her commenting she couldn't comment yet.

BS.  She outright said BW thinks most people loved "the ending".  She says after a certain threshhold of players finish the BW will try to clarify "the ending".  She says she disagrees with the movement trying to change "the ending".  She says she's collecting things people didn't understand about "the ending" so the team can clarify "the ending".  And much more.  

Man, the delusion runs deep in this thread.

No - she states that shes getting a lot of commentary from people who love the ending - although if you throw in indoctrination theory fans who claim its awesome - thats a lot of love.

Also - indoctrination theory aren't asking for a 'change the ending' they're waiting for the ending reveal.

As for collecting information for clarifying the ending - seems pretty straight forward and keeps in line with the idea that the ending will be revealed. You can't just throw a new ending out there if most of the player base doesn't realise its an indoctrination experience. They'll be more confused than gamers are now.

You can call it delusion if you want, you can believe that one of the most hyped release of a game in a long time, that was very polished throughout - totally dropped the ball at the end if you want. No-one is saying you can't.

We're just saying we don't believe that - and so far no-one has come in here or anywhere on the internet and said "Sorry guys, you weren't indoctrinated. Thats all there is. There isn't anymore." More so not one person from BioWare has done ANYTHING to clarify any of the statements about the ending made prior to release. ESPECIALLY Caseys ABC comment that was so soon before release - when literally weeks later we got...and ABC ending.

But hey whatever floats your boat - I'll more than happily eat my words if I'm wrong. But I'm yet to see that I am.

[greywardencommander]

chkchkchk wrote...

Here's how ending/epilogue DLC might work.  Sorry if this has been repeated.

Dein Justin wrote...

So, how can somebody be playing the game if they chose synthesis/control?

I propose you wake up no matter what you selected.  Wake up scenarios are below.

- SYNTHESIS:  This choice is like a submissive acceptance of death, so you wake up with LOW WILLPOER.  You've opened yourself to union with the Reapers.  You'll need your squadmates to snap you out of it.  Perhaps Liara's "mindmeld" or the presence of a lover could help.

- CONTROL:  This choice assumes you'll continue to exist as controller of the Reapers, so you wake with STRONGER WILLPOWER in the delusion that you're in control of the Reapers, i.e. saved by egomania.  You have the chance to snap yourself out of it, but friends can help.

- DESTROY:  Wake up with a clear head, ready to hold the line.

And now some possible endings once you're awake.  Perhaps you get a game over instead of "roll credits" if you can't snap out of the indoctrination.

- Reapers win and everyone dies nooooo!!!: synthesis + low EMS
- Reapers defeated, Shep dies, friends die: control + low EMS / synthesis + high EMS
- Reapers defeated, Shep dies, friends live: control + high EMS / destroy + low EMS
- BLUE BABIES UNICORNS ICECREAM : destroy + high EMS

Those are just examples.

http://social.biowar.../index/10350970 
I even added (after a suggestion) a fight your squadmates at the end if indoctrinated, do you 'win' and condemn the galaxy or 'lose' and make the ultimate sacrifice...talk about emotional turmoil and the old switcharoo (like with Anderson vs TIM)

[Iwillbeback]

God I hope so......if not lazy writers.

[Prudii Aden]

Just thinking about the Indoctrination Theory, and the mission to Thessia - has anyone taken Javik/Prothy along with them on that mission? There's a chunk of extra dialogue that (I think) blows a hole in the theory. The VI talks to Javik, who tells the VI that Shepard is sufficiently worthy to at least be granted the chance to try, at which point the VI starts talking to Shepard until it does the Indoctrination alert, which preceeds Kai Leng's arrival.

[Icinix]

CitadelSurfer wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Capeo wrote...

All of you clearly weren't in the PR thread last night, huh? Jessica was talking with us. These ARE the endings people. There is no indoctrination. This cult can disband.

It seems BW is working on something to better explain the ending but this is the ending. It's been her job to collect questions people have about the ending. There's nothing beyond it. You can drop the conspiracy claptrap.

Shes still preaching patience and merely saying to stop jumpng to crazy PR/ Damage Controls speculation. In fact - her conversation was surprising devoid of her commenting on the endings - beyond her commenting she couldn't comment yet.

BS.  She outright said BW thinks most people loved "the ending".  She says after a certain threshhold of players finish the BW will try to clarify "the ending".  She says she disagrees with the movement trying to change "the ending".  She says she's collecting things people didn't understand about "the ending" so the team can clarify "the ending".  And much more.  

Man, the delusion runs deep in this thread.

First of where did she say most people loved "the ending." The best i ahve heard on that is "some people like the ending."

Secondly you ahvent really this thread, have you?

We are not trying to have the ending changed, that is for other threads. In fact most of us beleive the ending should stay in its current form, but with additional parts beeing added to it fully explaining this theory (or another explanation) and giving us proper closure.

Reread what you just wrote, while it speaks of not changing the ending, nothing so far speaks of not adding to the ending and "clarifying" it through that.

Couldn't of said it better myself. 

I tried - and still couldn't  Nail - Head.

[greywardencommander]

Prudii Aden wrote...

Just thinking about the Indoctrination Theory, and the mission to Thessia - has anyone taken Javik/Prothy along with them on that mission? There's a chunk of extra dialogue that (I think) blows a hole in the theory. The VI talks to Javik, who tells the VI that Shepard is sufficiently worthy to at least be granted the chance to try, at which point the VI starts talking to Shepard until it does the Indoctrination alert, which preceeds Kai Leng's arrival.

that's already been accounted for, Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated (i.e. he hasn't succumbed to it yet, which this theory states the final 10 mins is the last stage of and can still beat the attempted control) so it wouldn't flag up. Javik also says that it failed to realise all the Protheans supporting 'control' as indoctrinated (which actually supports the theory, because control is an option obviously) until it was too late

Modifié par greywardencommander, 21 mars 2012 - 02:01 .

[redBadger14]

Prudii Aden wrote...

Just thinking about the Indoctrination Theory, and the mission to Thessia - has anyone taken Javik/Prothy along with them on that mission? There's a chunk of extra dialogue that (I think) blows a hole in the theory. The VI talks to Javik, who tells the VI that Shepard is sufficiently worthy to at least be granted the chance to try, at which point the VI starts talking to Shepard until it does the Indoctrination alert, which preceeds Kai Leng's arrival.

I don't think so. The indoctrination hasn't fully taken hold over Shepard's mind so it would go largely undetected by Javik or the Prothean VI.

Modifié par redBadger14, 21 mars 2012 - 02:00 .

[nyrocron]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

All this arguing about whether or not the indoc theory is "true" isn't actually that relevant. Even if they say "no, it's bull****, these are the endings" it's still a very good fan theory and makes a lot more sense. I think it will still be headcanon for many fans.

Yes. I think most people here just want an explanation of the ending (which BioWare most likely will provide) and, in the mean time, use what we already got to explain it in it's current form. The ultimate goal ofc is to get them to create a DLC (/Patch/Expansion/...) to do that - if they did not plan to do that all the time.

In my opionion their reactions would also fit if they planned something like this theory to be the explanation but are overwhelmed by the reactions and are currently figuring out how to present their explanation.

[magica87]

I think the problem is not to abandon or not BioWare,but rather that in front of so much dissatisfaction with the final ME3 is logical that they ask themselves if perhaps they have forgotten something, it fits the theory of indoctrination and I think it was questionable but a good idea at the end, this is where you should start to get the REAL ending or endings. Without erasing all the work done you need only add a piece that gives justice to all the wonderful saga of ME.
(sorry if my english sucks )

[greywardencommander]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

All this arguing about whether or not the indoc theory is "true" isn't actually that relevant. Even if they say "no, it's bull****, these are the endings" it's still a very good fan theory and makes a lot more sense. I think it will still be headcanon for many fans.

This

[Icinix]

Iwillbeback wrote...

God I hope so......if not lazy writers.

Another point why I don't believe this is it.

They had more writers for ME3 than previous games - and I find it hard to believe that the whole ending was based on Mac Walters sitting in his room scribbling some notes "Lots of speculation for everyone!" and they ran with it.

This is one of the deepest, most intricate, most passionate gaming series of all time - and thats is how the ending came about from a team of experienced professional writers?

Nope. It is definitely deeper than that.

[chkchkchk]

What do we think of this video that argues Shep wakes up on the Citadel instead of Earth?  It worries me.  It seems weird that Shep would survive the exploding Citadel, but maybe he/she is inside a little sealed-off chunk of it?  Can we find any clues that show the rubble is definitely on Earth?

[greywardencommander]

I don't care if the endings are as intended I just want them to come out and admit they f****d up no matter what this will be my head canon because so much of the theory makes sense (they even said they wanted indoctrination but gameplay mechanic made it too difficult) so it could be that all the stuff we see and want to point to it is what was meant to point to it and was left in but the endings are still the end.

Throw in the fact DLC is technically the game, so technically is the complete game thus DLC can still technically be the ending.

If you think about it ME2 Arrival happened in the game, i.e. beginning of ME3, that was a DLC and should have been optional BUT HAPPENED even in games of people who never played it, thus you can argue it's the end of ME2 because it's SUPPOSED to be played after ME2 (they even said so)

[greywardencommander]

Icinix wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

God I hope so......if not lazy writers.

Another point why I don't believe this is it.

They had more writers for ME3 than previous games - and I find it hard to believe that the whole ending was based on Mac Walters sitting in his room scribbling some notes "Lots of speculation for everyone!" and they ran with it.

This is one of the deepest, most intricate, most passionate gaming series of all time - and thats is how the ending came about from a team of experienced professional writers?

Nope. It is definitely deeper than that.

He also wrote Garrus in ME1 (and Wrex) probably the most widely loved of all the characters (hence their decision to include romancing). He certainly has the prowess to make the ending writing be like WTF that's not what to expect

[S Atomeha]

chkchkchk wrote...

What do we think of this video that argues Shep wakes up on the Citadel instead of Earth?  It worries me.  It seems weird that Shep would survive the exploding Citadel, but maybe he/she is inside a little sealed-off chunk of it?  Can we find any clues that show the rubble is definitely on Earth?

it's stretching it, but if we want the background pic in here shows the same rubble as endgame.
http://masseffect.bi...about/gameplay/

[Rifneno]

chkchkchk wrote...

What do we think of this video that argues Shep wakes up on the Citadel instead of Earth?  It worries me.  It seems weird that Shep would survive the exploding Citadel, but maybe he/she is inside a little sealed-off chunk of it?  Can we find any clues that show the rubble is definitely on Earth?

Well mostly everyone points to the fact that it's concrete, which is not found anywhere on the Citadel.  But personally I prefer to the point to the fact that the Citadel blew up.  In outer space.  Really the only way that a human would have a harder time surviving is if they teleported him into the core of the damn sun.

[streamlock]

Well, for now the indoc theory makes more sense then anything else I've heard, in or outside the game. Even if it turns out to be 'space magic', my Sheppard will always know he died fighting off Harbingers influence.