57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Sammuthegreat]

Turbotanden wrote...

Sammuthegreat wrote...

Turbotanden wrote...

Btw
"Nothing's happening, the crucible is not firing. It's gotta be something on your end."
There is no action, no fire up, no sound. But when you come up the big beam is already activated?

Not sure what to make of this. There's certainly no sound, true.

When the cutscene plays, showing the Crucible moving into place and joining the Citadel, is there no beam there? I can't remember how the scene plays out.

EDIT: If the beam isn't there in the cutscene and it's just space magicked into existence despite Hackett saying nothing had happened, then this is a good catch. Unlikely to be the difference between people believe Indoc Theory or not, but a good catch nontheless.

First you get the sequence where the crucible connects. Then Shepard and Anderson talk. Then the "comm" from Hackett comes.

Right - but in the scene where the Crucible connects, is the beam visible or not?

[Vhalkyrie]

The message in Ray's post does seem to suggest that the current ending was intended. I'm not sure what I'm more surprised by - the actual ending, or they thought ending with deus ex machina was a good idea. Given the quality and detail in the rest of the series, the last few minutes is terribly out of sync. I was reaching for tissues when Mordin, Thane, Legion, and Anderson died. But when I Shepard died, I was bewildered, not mournful.  Shepard's death/sacrifice should have been the hardest of all.  Shepard's death should have had me bawling, and yet I was oddly cathartic. The Indoc theory renewed hope in me. With Ray's statement, I'm pretty sure they didn't plan it, but it doesn't mean they can't run with it. Or something like it. Whatever the case, the current ending as it currently stands is not acceptable.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 21 mars 2012 - 05:00 .

[Angmir]

Red Starblazer wrote...

I would just like to say this. I've posted in here several times supporting the Indoc Theory (which it is, no doubts here), and how Bioware is god for it. But I would like to say that they still dropped the ball.

Because the initial emotional orgasm we had throughout that game of happiness, rage and even sorrow (I cried when I lost Mordin and Legion) is gone. I WILL NOT have the same emotional hightness that I did when spending 60 hours straight playthrough on Insanity when I picked it up in stores when I play any future DLC revealing the true ending. It just won't have the same effect. What they should have done was JUST FREAKING INCLUDE THE REAL ENDING IN THE GAME, so the emotional stakes could remain present.

I still feel jipped. While the genius of it all is most definitely acknowledged, I still feel jipped..And that's grounds enough to cry again..

I dissagre - the time you are given after beating the game and playing the new ending would make this experience all the more unforgetable - I mean if Indoc theory will prove true and they planned on this from the start.

I believe in players indoctriantion theory - Bioware intencionally left us with the curent endings to mesure our resolve and dedication. Only thouse who opose the endings and understand that the ending is just an Ilusion have truely Beat the game. it will be all the better when the Ture endings finally come !

April will bring us victory do not falter !

Modifié par Angmir, 21 mars 2012 - 04:59 .

[blueboxblues]

T16skyhopp wrote...

Considering the endings are vague and purposefully open to interpretation, this theory will always be a valid interpretation whether or not Bioware intended it as truth. Art, and its meaning, does not solely rely on artistic intent. The viewpoints, interpretations and meaning of the viewer can be just as valid as that of the artist.

QFT. Honestly even if they flat out say "Shepard was never indoctrinated" I will just ignore it and it will be true in my head. The ending was not so well written, but the rest of the series & lore was SO well written that it's a testimate to the writers that something this insane COULD EVEN BE POSSIBLE.

[Unschuld]

Listen to the words. The current ending was intended. That's a clever way of not stating anything is final, or otherwise. It's ambiguous.

Modifié par Unschuld, 21 mars 2012 - 05:00 .

[Turbotanden]

Sammuthegreat wrote...

Turbotanden wrote...

Sammuthegreat wrote...

Turbotanden wrote...

Btw
"Nothing's happening, the crucible is not firing. It's gotta be something on your end."
There is no action, no fire up, no sound. But when you come up the big beam is already activated?

Not sure what to make of this. There's certainly no sound, true.

When the cutscene plays, showing the Crucible moving into place and joining the Citadel, is there no beam there? I can't remember how the scene plays out.

EDIT: If the beam isn't there in the cutscene and it's just space magicked into existence despite Hackett saying nothing had happened, then this is a good catch. Unlikely to be the difference between people believe Indoc Theory or not, but a good catch nontheless.

First you get the sequence where the crucible connects. Then Shepard and Anderson talk. Then the "comm" from Hackett comes.

Right - but in the scene where the Crucible connects, is the beam visible or not?

It seems to be trying to fire up but not succeding, like a tired old engine.

[greywardencommander]

Veggiesofmanycolors wrote...

I think with Ray Muzyka's recent response this whole thread is now invalid and should be closed down.

he says current endings, not endings, he also says they're working with the feedback and how to use it, no reason why the theory can't still be used, intended or not.

[Dwailing]

Streambeck wrote...

So, I just wanted to add something to this. What I'm saying is grasping at straws more than the theory itself, but it potentially works with the theory, so bear with me:

Taking the end sequence at face value, and really the entirety of ME3, you have to really consider something about TIM's motives.

Why is it so important to him that Shepard agrees with him? Why, particularly in the end segment, if the ending is literal, would it be so important for Shepard to see things his way? He's on the cusp of his "control," he appears to have more knowledge about whatever is going on than Shepard or Anderson. Why not just kill them and open the arms himself?

This also goes all the way back to why he would bring Shepard back in the first place, and Harbinger's keen interest in Shepard. If the Reapers were so intent on securing Shepard's body, and TIM had the body, why wouldn't there just be some kind of exchange where TIM would be led to believe it was in humanity's best interest? They give him some Reaper tech in exchange for Shepard's body, or something along those lines.

I think it's possible that Harbinger's goal with Shepard, and what TIM was doing without even being aware of it (considering he's under some level of Reaper control), was fashioning a successor for TIM. The new human voice for the Reapers. TIM was shrewd and resourcefull, a "worthy" agent of the Reapers, but Shepard was "a symbol, a bloody icon." Shepard is able to unite the entirety of the galaxy with his inherent leadership.

I mean, think about it. If the proto-Reaper was the endgoal of the Collectors/Harbinger, why have their agent send the person most likely to be capable of foiling their plan? Why show such interest in preserving Shepard's body when they already had it? Why would TIM have such a keen interest in observing Shepard's leadership skills, his ability to gain loyalty and trust, his ability to repair bridges, his critical thinking, with the resources he has? Maybe the "dirty dozen" were the only ones truely capable of foiling the Collectors, and maybe Shepard was the only one that could unite them, but that not only seems far-fetched, it seems so oddly specific. With what we understand of TIM's means now, it just doesn't seem like Shepard could possibly serve as some kind of lynchpin in stopping the Collectors. It just feels like ME2 was, in a way, more of a test, a trial run for Shepard.

Yeah, sorry, this is way far fetched, just thought I'd share.

Huh, you might be on to something.  Shepard is probably the most recognized and, more importantly, trusted person in the entire galaxy right now, whereas TIM is widely regarded as a terrorist.  If the Reapers could get Shepard, they would have scored the biggest coup in the history of the cycles.  If the Reapers indoctrinate Shepard and make him tell the fleets to stand down, even if they don't stop completely, they will definitely hesitate, giving the Reapers and opening.  And as for the indoctrination itself, the Reapers only need Shepard for a short time, therefore, it doesn't matter if they do accelerated indoctrination that only keeps him cognizent for a few days because they only really need him for a few hours, to distract the galaxy.

[Gernbuster]

Japse wrote...

Hello everyone, I have never posted here and probably I will never post here again, but I just want to say, that many from the "silent majority" support this theory as well. :-) I will never buy any of Bioware or EA products again until the end will be reworked.
I salute you from the Czech republic.
Hold the line!

thx, i am glad to hear that we get united all over the world for a noble goal.
HOLD THE LINE!

[VakarianSpectre]

The only issue I have with the Indoctrination theory is that the Prothean VI would've shut itself off when it sensed the taint on Shephard, the way it did with Kai Leng. Which also raises the question of how The Illusive Man was able to interact with it, since he was supposedly indoctrinated as well.

[Red Starblazer]

Angmir wrote...

Red Starblazer wrote...

I would just like to say this. I've posted in here several times supporting the Indoc Theory (which it is, no doubts here), and how Bioware is god for it. But I would like to say that they still dropped the ball.

Because the initial emotional orgasm we had throughout that game of happiness, rage and even sorrow (I cried when I lost Mordin and Legion) is gone. I WILL NOT have the same emotional hightness that I did when spending 60 hours straight playthrough on Insanity when I picked it up in stores when I play any future DLC revealing the true ending. It just won't have the same effect. What they should have done was JUST FREAKING INCLUDE THE REAL ENDING IN THE GAME, so the emotional stakes could remain present.

I still feel jipped. While the genius of it all is most definitely acknowledged, I still feel jipped..And that's grounds enough to cry again..

I dissagre - the time you are given after beating the game and playing the new ending would make this experience all the more unforgetable - I mean if Indoc theory will prove true and they planned on this from the start.

I believe in players indoctriantion theory - Bioware intencionally left us with the curent endings to mesure our resolve and dedication. Only thouse who opose the endings and understand that the ending is just an Ilusion have truely Beat the game. it will be all the better when the Ture endings finally come !

April will bring us victory do not falter !

Yeah I suppose your right. I mean after all, what other company or franchise has been able to bring the community together like this?

Bioware, always pioneering the industry. That's their M.O.

Holding the Line.

[Erethrian]

Someone asked for this.

[Dwailing]

VakarianSpectre wrote...

The only issue I have with the Indoctrination theory is that the Prothean VI would've shut itself off when it sensed the taint on Shephard, the way it did with Kai Leng. Which also raises the question of how The Illusive Man was able to interact with it, since he was supposedly indoctrinated as well.

Well, it did say that its security measures were disabled when it was with TIM, and part of the theory is that Shepard only gets truly indoctrinated if he makes the wrong choice at the end.

[Sammuthegreat]

Turbotanden wrote...

Sammuthegreat wrote...

Turbotanden wrote...

Sammuthegreat wrote...

Turbotanden wrote...

Btw
"Nothing's happening, the crucible is not firing. It's gotta be something on your end."
There is no action, no fire up, no sound. But when you come up the big beam is already activated?

Not sure what to make of this. There's certainly no sound, true.

When the cutscene plays, showing the Crucible moving into place and joining the Citadel, is there no beam there? I can't remember how the scene plays out.

EDIT: If the beam isn't there in the cutscene and it's just space magicked into existence despite Hackett saying nothing had happened, then this is a good catch. Unlikely to be the difference between people believe Indoc Theory or not, but a good catch nontheless.

First you get the sequence where the crucible connects. Then Shepard and Anderson talk. Then the "comm" from Hackett comes.

Right - but in the scene where the Crucible connects, is the beam visible or not?

It seems to be trying to fire up but not succeding, like a tired old engine.

Hmm. Still not quite sure what to make of it, but thinking about it it's a bit weird that after all the build-up, right the way through the game, surrounding this world-saving Doomsday-esque device, we don't actually get any sort of chance to see it firing up. Seems a bit anticlimactic somehow...

Someone else pointed this out earlier, but it's worth bringing to people's attention again - in the breathing bonus scene, it definitely sounds like wind in the background. Where on the Citadel would wind be howling like that...?

[Henioo]

I think what's going to happen is that whatever happened Shepard, either blue, red or green explosion, changed his/her body, transforming the commander into genderless "the shepard". The shepard becomes the antagonist in the style of Saren in the next installment of the game, or a spin off. We get a new protagonist and the money keeps pouring in. Oh, I think EA prematurely heard the "ca-ching".

Modifié par Henioo, 21 mars 2012 - 05:03 .

[Vhalkyrie]

VakarianSpectre wrote...

The only issue I have with the Indoctrination theory is that the Prothean VI would've shut itself off when it sensed the taint on Shephard, the way it did with Kai Leng. Which also raises the question of how The Illusive Man was able to interact with it, since he was supposedly indoctrinated as well.

The Illusive Man was able to interact with it because he hacked its security protection.  When Shepard activates the VI it says, "Security protocols overridden.  I can comply."

Also, the Prothean VI's are not perfect at detecting indoctrination.  This is explained in the "From Ashes" DLC.  Javik's entire crew fell to indoctrination.  He also explains that the Protheans ultimately unraveled due to sleeper agents.  The VI's cannot detect sleeper agents.

[blueboxblues]

Also, of course the current endings were "intended." It's not like they accidentally put this ending on all the copies of the games they made. No one at Bioware on the night of March 6 went OH **** WE SHIPPED OUT THE WRONG END MY BAD.

[greywardencommander]

VakarianSpectre wrote...

The only issue I have with the Indoctrination theory is that the Prothean VI would've shut itself off when it sensed the taint on Shephard, the way it did with Kai Leng. Which also raises the question of how The Illusive Man was able to interact with it, since he was supposedly indoctrinated as well.

dealt with, he's not been fully indoctrinated yet or reached the 'appropriate level of indoctrination' to be recognised, the process is subtle after all. Also Javic points out that the VI failed to recognise any of the Prothean indoctrinated (those wanting to control the reapers) until the last minute so it's not like the VI worked in the grand scheme anyway.

[greywardencommander]

blueboxblues wrote...

Also, of course the current endings were "intended." It's not like they accidentally put this ending on all the copies of the games they made. No one at Bioware on the night of March 6 went OH **** WE SHIPPED OUT THE WRONG END MY BAD.

TBH human error causing that would still be better lol

[Thornquist]

blueboxblues wrote...
 Honestly even if they flat out say "Shepard was never indoctrinated" I will just ignore it and it will be true in my head. .

I believe you.

I really, really do.

[noobcannon]

VakarianSpectre wrote...

The only issue I have with the Indoctrination theory is that the Prothean VI would've shut itself off when it sensed the taint on Shephard, the way it did with Kai Leng. Which also raises the question of how The Illusive Man was able to interact with it, since he was supposedly indoctrinated as well.

this has been brought up before. i think it's because shepard isn't indoctrinated. the reapers have been trying to indoctrinate him for awhile, and they are making their strongest effort after you get hit from harbinger's blast, but you only become indoctrinated if you choose the blue or green ending.

[Erethrian]

greywardencommander wrote...

VakarianSpectre wrote...

The only issue I have with the Indoctrination theory is that the Prothean VI would've shut itself off when it sensed the taint on Shephard, the way it did with Kai Leng. Which also raises the question of how The Illusive Man was able to interact with it, since he was supposedly indoctrinated as well.

dealt with, he's not been fully indoctrinated yet or reached the 'appropriate level of indoctrination' to be recognised, the process is subtle after all. Also Javic points out that the VI failed to recognise any of the Prothean indoctrinated (those wanting to control the reapers) until the last minute so it's not like the VI worked in the grand scheme anyway.

Think about this. I think the Prothean VI (and this is why Protheans failed) can only detect individuals using reaper tech.

This also explains why it says "Security Protocols overridden" it's not talking about Shepard at that moment, but about EDI, a body made with reaper tech.


EDIT: Also, I'm sure someone asked for an image about this, so in case you missed it:



"Someone asked for this."

Modifié par Erethrian, 21 mars 2012 - 05:08 .

[Henioo]

Erethrian wrote...



Someone asked for this.

Well, that's just absurd. Just like the reception of Dragon Age 2 surprised them. I wonder how much EA is paying for that kind of talk.

[Erethrian]

Henioo wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

...

Well, that's just absurd. Just like the reception of Dragon Age 2 surprised them. I wonder how much EA is paying for that kind of talk.

I already expected some kind of PR damage control at this time. Look, they're dealing with refunds, FTC complaints, and fans' rage. So I don't think this is bad. If the IT is true, we'll know on April. If not, I want to know what they have to say. We'll have to wait for that.


Edit: Even if they had all of this planned, and the indoctrination theory is true, I'm sure they didn't expect this outrage from us.

Modifié par Erethrian, 21 mars 2012 - 05:12 .

[Redbelle]

Lets hope our melting pot of story events can be made into something that gives the proper closure to the mass effect trilogy. I've read so many good ideas on the forums that Bioware can give the spit and polish too.

In many ways the mass effect endings are similar to the Deus Ex HR endings. Not to snub Deus Ex but those endings were pretty poor compared to the rest of the game when you realise it's the same video montage with a different voice over.

ME however has been epic, described as epic by many and brought so many ppl into its universe that an official and final ending to commander Shepards story can not be considered to be an option but a necessity. The discussions around the net have revealed such large gaps in what has been brilliently consistent story boarding that the ending feels like a child scrawled plot points on a napkin with crayon instead of the experts who brought us everything from before the Anderson TIM encounter back to ME1. Where is the closure?

I'm thinking specifically of the gasp in London/citadel and the old man and child where one more story about the Shepard will be told. <groan> I must have missed something because ME3 has been described as the final chapter of Shepard

On a personal note I don't want Bioware to think I'm getting at them with all this feedback on their forums. They gave us one of the best gaming experiences and raised the bar of immersive fps/rpg. I just want them to hit the ending that frames what Mass Effect has represent's and ME can represent alot of things depending on how you play it. And despite what many in Bioware are indicating with their statements I am ready to say goodbye to Shep. Since ME2 Death has become a viable option to the character. but if Shepard has to die I'd prefer it to be as a consequence of my choice's, just as I'd want to have Shep live based on the choices I make. Shep's fate should be up in the air come the ending. Live or die depending on what the player who controls him decides. Not knowing which choices are the right ones until the choices played out made the final mission of ME2 an edge of your seat experience and while BW might not want to repeat the same trick twice it would still be better than what they gave us.

I figure I'll stay hopeful. Let BW do it's thing and hope that what they have in store validates the faith of those who still believe they have a plan.

But please Bioware. Whatever you decide, don't let it be another kick in the Quads

Modifié par Redbelle, 21 mars 2012 - 05:13 .