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[ShepGep]

Did anybody else find it weird that your gun had infinite ammo after being knocked out by Harbingers beam? Just more proof in my opinion.

[CLB17]

ShepGep wrote...

Did anybody else find it weird that your gun had infinite ammo after being knocked out by Harbingers beam? Just more proof in my opinion.

Yea i noticed that to. Very strange.

[Arian Dynas]

Dein Justin wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

ShadowTheInsane wrote...

jedsithor wrote...

I think my biggest problem with the Indoctrination Theory is that it forces you to choose Destroy in order to keep playing. And how far does it go? Do you only get to keep playing if you got enough EMS to get the "Shepard lives" scene?

If Bioware do release DLC that makes use of Indoctrination, I don't think it can be just for those who chose Destroy. Imagine downloading this DLC, possibly even paying for it, only to receive a message saying "You failed! Please go back and choose Destroy to keep playing!" It's ridiculous.

For that reason, I believe the theory needs to be looked at again. I've no problem believing the theory as a whole but let's say it's true. It means that if you chose synthesis or control, your Shepard is still alive, just indoctrinated. Right? So I guess you could play through the new endgame as indoctrinated Shepard, fighting for the enemy or struggling to break free of indoctrination.

It's not unprecedented in Bioware games. In KOTOR you can turn to the Dark Side but at the very end, Carth shows up and gives you one last chance to redeem yourself. Something like that could work I guess.

The problem with such a scenario in Mass Effect though is that your choices were never really about right and wrong, good and evil. Shepard was never the "bad" guy. You can make him to some rotten things like shoot Mordin in the back, but Renegade Shepard would say it was for the greater good. The choices were about saving the galaxy and what you would do to achieve that. Even the choices at the end of the game, as poorly thought out as they appear to be, are about saving the galaxy from the Reaper threat. Control them, join them or destroy them. Whichever you choose, the threat is over. It's a matter of deciding which is better for the individual player. As it turns out, they're all terrible and make no sense.

Indoctrination, while a cool idea, takes that away. It suggests that there really is only one choice. Can you really play as an indoctrinated Shepard for the final part of the game? If the player chooses synthesis, is he then punished for wanting an ending where organics and synthetics are the same, thus no more wars? Do you then force the player to start gunning down squad members? You've saved the galaxy a couple of times but now you have to play as the villain? It just feels wrong and it goes against the Mass Effect concept just as much as the current endings do.

Maybe it can work, but Bioware need to be really careful about how they implement it should they choose to. Having 3 poor choices is bad enough. But having 1 "real" choice is arguably worse.

I agree in principle with what you're saying about ME not being about good path/evil path so much as taking the same path but as a nice guy or a bad-ass. But then again in a game that ultimately boils down to "did you save the galaxy or not", does there not have to be a way to fail and lose the war? Otherwise doesn't it make your choice (or your "failure" to see through the indoctrination attempt) artificial? I'd be disappointed if your decision of control/synthesis/destroy didn't bear some kind of consequence in the ending DLC.

That being said, if choosing destroy lets you immediately rejoin the fight, while control/synthesis required you to go through some kind of extra/side plotline in order to fight off the indoctrination and link up with the story at the same point as if you chose destroy, then I think that could work.

*Coughs and points at the ending of Neverwinter Nights 2* *cough*sidewithkingofshadows*cough*

You do have to remember NWN2 is not BioWare's doing..it's Obsidian. Obsidian has tried some complex stuff in many of its games, only to leave most content out and games buggy e.g. KOTOR2, NWN2, Alpha Protocol, Fallout NV..

Get me the writing credits of NWN 2 and I'll agree, to be entirely honest, I forget the extent of Bioware's involvement (and also recall, the expansion was one of the single most complex, human, and straight at your balls/heart RPG storylines of it's time. NWN 2 was intended to be a slightly cheezy slayers-esque romp, and they still gave you the option to say "Screw ya'll, I'm gonna be the bad guy here".)

Also, personally, the single biggest peice of proof from my point of veiw, the guy who did the 3d de-render of the textures of some of the low-rez polygon piles immediately after waking up and found them to be... bodies, intentionally made doll-like, distorted in strange shapes, oh and did I mention, ALL OF THE SAME TWO PEOPLE? Especially considering one should be dead and buried for 3 years, incinerated by a nuclear bomb, while the other was ON THE NORMANDY. There is no way in hell that was unitentional. If they just wanted bodies, they had tons of generic marines, why insert two models that aren't even in the game, featuring Ash and Kaiden, wearing armor neither has worn for more than a year at this point, with their hair sheared off and their eyes glasslike?

Also, this means either this is as the theory points out, a f*ked up hallucination, or the Systems Alliance has a SEVERE problem with cloning, in which event, I think we have bigger problems than the Reapers.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 22 mars 2012 - 04:22 .

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

It's not strange it's SPACE MAGIC

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

Can you stop quoting entire books please?

[lookingglassmind]

Totally Not Swaggacide wrote...

Can you stop quoting entire books please?

Swagga: it's annoying, yeah, but it's how people have conversations appropriately. Unfortunately, due to the speed of this thread, it hinders communication. But telling people to stop is taking what small amount of information saturation there is to be had in this thread. Removing complete thoughts, which is what you're doing if you "stop quoting entire books", decreases the ability for understanding and allowing others to follow the train of thought.

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

0____0

[mghjr6]

CLB17 wrote...

ShepGep wrote...

Did anybody else find it weird that your gun had infinite ammo after being knocked out by Harbingers beam? Just more proof in my opinion.

Yea i noticed that to. Very strange.

TBH, I took it as a simplification of the gameplay mechanics. New animations would have been needed for reload, etc. I've heard it mentioned many time, but don't consider it one of the stronger points in the theory's favor.

[Arian Dynas]

Totally Not Swaggacide wrote...

0____0

I think you broke her head.

[llbountyhunter]

llbountyhunter wrote...

 Ok, so I finished a replay of the game, looking out for indoctrination signals. And I hit gold...maybe


Now I think the indoctrination starts as soon as the shuttle "crashes," because here the game cuts of abruptly (a little too abruptly)and as soon as the black fades your suddenly outside safely with the shuttle mangled on its side. (I realize this sounds completely normal, but the game makes it feel really awkward and weird, especially when you’re looking for clues....)


But the biggest thing (really big) was the reaper that came down to protect the beam. It has anyone noticed it was harbinger? it didnt have the typical red reaper eye, but harbingers eye.

 Now here I’m speculating but I think you can also see his eyes when your first arrive at the citadel, you’re walking
out of the dark room and the door shifts, you get blinded by some rays of light (that are really part of the citadel) but also kind of look like eyes, and you hear whispers at this point (though I may be stretching it on this one).

 
Of course “the run” could have been real, and the reaper was actually THE harbinger (I don’t think we ever saw him), and those “beams” were in fact “indoctrination rays” or something like that…. 

nvermind, it is harbinger, didnt know- havent played the Arival dlc.... damn thought i found something. 

on another note have any of you all noticed the music when walking toward the destroy or merge/control options? for destroy its sounds hopefull and victory, while for the others its sounds sinister and dark? (its only lasts a few seconds though)

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 22 mars 2012 - 04:22 .

[Icinix]

mghjr6 wrote...

CLB17 wrote...

ShepGep wrote...

Did anybody else find it weird that your gun had infinite ammo after being knocked out by Harbingers beam? Just more proof in my opinion.

Yea i noticed that to. Very strange.

TBH, I took it as a simplification of the gameplay mechanics. New animations would have been needed for reload, etc. I've heard it mentioned many time, but don't consider it one of the stronger points in the theory's favor.

The reload animation is still there though - it just doesn't need to be used.  After playing the game for 40 hours, I was automatically reloading for a while before I realised there was no ammo limit.

[Golferguy758]

ShepGep wrote...

Did anybody else find it weird that your gun had infinite ammo after being knocked out by Harbingers beam? Just more proof in my opinion.

gameplay mechanic

[Icinix]

Totally Not Swaggacide wrote...

0____0

^^^ SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE MAGIC.

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

@Arian Dynes
No the ending of ME3 did that

[lookingglassmind]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Totally Not Swaggacide wrote...

0____0

I think you broke her head.

I shouldn't be laughing. But that was hilarious.

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

@Icinix
That explains everything!
I don't need college when there is SPAAAAAACE MAAAAAGIC!!!!!!

[Legion109]

Totally Not Swaggacide wrote...

It's not strange it's SPACE MAGIC

Noooooo no more please I beg you.


- We dont hold lines in Las Vegas we do lines -

Indoception - the belief it was an Indoctrination in a Hallucination caused by the Indoctrination in the Dreams.

[ArkkAngel007]

You guys should check my post on 796. It's not a debate on evidence, but it gives not only a well put argument on the issues of IT if BioWare were to add to the endings and how players may be alienated. I also gave my response to that thread, which offered a compromise that our stalwart opponant, GBGriffin, found satisfying.

Sorry about the shameless self promotion, but it's something new to this thread instead of the same discussions over the same evidence again and again.

[Exicuren]

Uhmm, i don't know if this has already being commented, but about the whole dream thing, i have thought about it well, could harbinger be the one indoctrinating shepard since the begining? If i remember correctly, harbinger is the only one who can indoctrinate from a distance (a very long distance considering he could control the collectors from unknown space), i remeber the moment shep destroys/cleans the collector base, harbinger stops the control.
My point is that in the invasion to earth, harbinger already knew that shep was there, so his first try to indoctrinate shep was the kid, but when shep leaves earth, harby already knows he fleed from the planet, so he did "long distance" indoc manipulating his dreams. The reason of this hypothesis was the second dream, i saw how the shadows started to gather in one place, exactly where the kid was, so it coud mean that following the kid in the dreams leads shep more and more to be indoctrinated.

[FellishBeast]

Not to bash, but GBGriffin just seems to be butthurt that he made the wrong choice or something. At least from what I read. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[JimboAdams]

May as well throw this is in here, not sure if it was already posted, but I don't want to go through near 800 pages to find out. Did anyone else notice the scars on Shepard's face magically reappearing during the ending? I got mine healed and I sort of put it together with the IT and I speculate that the lazarus project was an early test of reaper tech from cerberus, and that the reaper tech could have activated with object rho, this could amplify the indoctrination just as Saren was with sovereign. I'm wondering if the scars are more of a physical appearance of the possible indoctrination, also at the end when Shepard takes a breath in concrete and everyone assumes it's from the citadel or he was never on the citadel, the citadel crashed into the earth, right above london , which has concrete... just sayin

[FellishBeast]

Has anyone experimented with the dreams? Like going the opposite way of the kid? Or just staying still? What happens?

[LadyVakarian]

 I just wanted to post this again from a previous page in the forum for those of you just comming into the thread. While we are on the topic of dreams that is...

LadyVakarian wrote...
 I agree completely with the indoc/hallucination theory but I wanted to touch on the subjects of the dreams for a little bit. If it WASN'T supposed to be an indoctrination attempt, I would have liked to see the dreams a little more along these lines: 
1st Dream: Shepard wakes up to see she is on Virmire. She can see Ashley/Kaiden on their comm talking to you from ME1. You can hear everything, but no matter what you do, they don't acknowledge you. UNTIL they are done talking. *cue scary music* They look at you and start verbally assaulting you, asking you why you left her and then you wake up in a cold sweat (thoughts? I had a more in depth idea, but can't quite describe it.) 

2nd Dream: Shepard finds herself in the Collector Ship, but things are different, like she is looking through glass. Then the screen pans out to find that Shep is in one of the melting tubes that the reapers used to refine the humans into genetic matter. As you struggle to get out, all of the people that died in the suicide mission (or if no one did, a combo of husks and collectors) come out of the darkness and begin to watch and laugh, not helping you. Some of them ask you why you left them behind, how you could live with yourself knowing that you left them to rot. You hear the sound of grinding below your feet and see the blades (or whatever the pods use) begin to turn. Your Shep screams and wakes up right before you get melted. 

3rd Dream: Shepard is in that dark forest, looking around. Out from behind the trees comes Mordin, Thane, Legion, and all of your loved ones (crew) that have died along the way. They all look so happy to see you, and your Shepard begins to think that s/he is having a good dream for once. As your Shepard runs to them they surround her. After a quick pause, you realise the smiles on the faces of your fallen comrades is not relief to see you, rather they are sinister, like they know something you don't. The screen pans to Shepards face only to see that s/he is mortified. Her friends' faces begin to darken and mutate into Husks. The huskified friends part and in walks your romance (if you never had one, it's Yourself or Anderson) character. They grab you in their arms (if LI) and smile. Your Shep looks up to them (or down if it's a he) with tears in their eyes. Shep says, "Why are they all husks, why are they like this?" (Or something like that) All they do is smile back and say something like, "You failed. Everyone around you is dead... you just don't know it yet." Your LI begins to morph into a husk. Your Shep desperately tries to fight to get out of their arms and the LI is still smiling at you. (Liara or Samara turn into a banshee and screams or something; Garrus begins to turn into a brute or Marauder; Tali takes off her mask to reveil a mutilated husk-like face; Ashley, Traynor, Cortez, Jacob, Miranda, Diana, Jack and Kaidan turn into husks(Same with Anderson or your own Shep); Thane morphs into something truly revolting) Instead of waking up like they do, your Shep wakes up kicking and screaming and your LI is fighting to wake you up. If you don't have a LI, EDI attempts to wake you. 

 Now tell me these wouldn't be cooler dreams? They would shake me to my core, I know that for a fact!

 

Modifié par LadyVakarian, 22 mars 2012 - 04:39 .

[HantaVirus34a]

 I posted this on the feedback page just now; And i like how you guys are doing the ending, and it makes perfect sense. So i think it would be good if i shared this with you.
ME staff.

I've been discussing ME3 ending with multi friends and have come to realize we do not hate the ending we just feel it could be written better. Thus I have been "volunteered" to write this.

In this post I am not going into too much detail of the verbiage or dialogue of these ideas. What I am going to post here is give a general outline of what my friends and I brainstormed would be a better more full-filling ending for the ME universe.

1: We'll go with the indoctrination of commander shepard. My friend brought forth data that really supports these claims, which you can find in your codex.. and I think there is a cool youtube video of this out there...

The story continues all the way through, we don’t change any of the ending. What is changed is the end game. As we know commander shepard was blasted on earth. And is still there during this "dream sequence" aka indoct.
During the dream sequence you play out the entire ending. You choose the choices and everything like that.

The differences in reality are the endings. As it is assumed that your are knocked out and Harbinger has over time tried to convert or indoctrinate shepard.
The Choice options that are laid out are green, red and blue. (standard paragon, renegade and Saren choice)

• Green-Reps that you decided and thought that (like Saren) the only hope for saving the universe was to combine the two and achieve peace.
• Blue- *which in fact is the actual renegade option but made to fool shepard* (see youtube video of the kid smirking at you when you choose this).. This IS what the reapers want you to choose so they can cont. the cycle, by in fact (which will be later told) ending shepard.
• Red- *which is the paragon ending* Shows that no matter the cost you will always defeat the reapers and end he cycle.

More information to come on this.

2: War Assets: End sequence, would be base on this. If your going for renegade option (and want to be bad) it would actually to be better to have less War assets to achieve the 100% renegade/ total evil ending. 
If you went GREEN (neutral option) than it would be the same and you want the most assets you can get. Also this will fall in line with the paragon endings as well. [more on this later as to how those war assets play in] 

IN short Evil = Don’t get assets; Neutral/Good = get assets. Think about it.

OH BTW roll beginning END CREDITS here, with the original game ending so you think its over. than proceed to 3.

BTW crucible docking as not happen yet in REAL TIME.

3: So based on what you choose in that dream sequence (indoct) you reawaken to Anderson yelling and saying get up.. etc.. etc.. says we got to get to the citadel. .etc etc. So both you guys and your squad go to up to the citadel (oh btw you still lost a ton of people in the charge).

So you teleport into the citadel and on a new level have to fight your way to the end platform. BUT base on your quests that you did for WAR assets for the Citadel, you either enter a OMG this is a hard to get through level. Or its a simple smash and grab level because your Citadel Assets are holding the line in hope of Commander Shepard saving the day for them. More dialogue here and there, see certain ppl in citadel dead or alive based on what you did.. etc etc... moving on.

• During this time though based on your choices from the indoct sequence you will see certain changes happen to shepard (if any) based on your choice.
• Blue you starting turning into a lil bit like a husk.
• Green you start glowing green and have the green outline ending effect.
• Red nothing. (you will see why soon) [ppl prob see where I am going with this]

4: So you make it up to the platform area, you bust through see some dead bodies piled up and make your way up to the final stage platform from the earlier ending. And low and behold you see TIM there standing all proud but its not TIM its in fact Harbinger because he has taken over TIM's body to talk to you. More dialogue ensues  etc etc...
Now heres why you keep the endings:

-If you chose GREEN, Anderson pulls you aside and see's the green glow on your skin and is like "dude you alright?" etc etc..

• Shepard's like yah ima good lets kill Harbinger and End this. More dialogue.. Harbinger tells shepard Not so fast! I controller you now like I controlled Saren! Shepard like oh yeah?. More dialogue.. SKIPPING to END
• So Enter War Assets: If War asset count is high you get a option to tell the fleet to kill Harbinger in space. If Fleet asset is low you tell the remaining fleet to protect the Crucible Or something along those lines. So well assume you have high assets (for writing sakes). BAM! Harbinger dies out there! And your like hell yeah we did it. But than Harbinger Takes full control of TIM more dialogue.. Fight scene.

• So Green ending: As you talk to Anderson you start hearing Harbinger's voice, saying its not over and that im in control. You tell Anderson this... more dialogue.. etc. 

[So than base on your War Assets] 

• Higher: You proceed to have conflicts and say I know what I have to do.. Than just like TIM and Saren you blow your brains out to save the day and end the reaper threat. Anderson and your squad mates cry, in disbelief etc etc... Squad mates than activate and kill remaining Reapers.
• Lower: You start arguing that we shouldn’t fire the Crucible and that the reapers are dead. Anderson says why are you more green.. You say its nothing. Squad mates question you. You either lie or tell them truth your indoc by harbinger. Base on choice either you kill Anderson for lying to them and than squad mates kill you and activate Crucible. Or you told truth and your losing control and one of your squad mates’ mercy kill you and Anderson actives ring. 

Than on earth you see all your squad mates crying, laughing, cheering shows your decisions of what you did through out game in cinematic fashion.. Shows an ending GOLD statue of your shepard on the either the citadel or earth. And it pans out and you hear Admiral Hackett telling how great of a hero you are and a legend you became. Roll credits.. Play the end cut scene. 

[Of course there could be more options here to decide how to kill or protect using war assets, like I said earlier ima just giving an outline of these endings.]

Now Blue (which is the hardest one to figure out): SAME THING AS GREEN expect it stops here;  Shepard like oh yeah?. More dialogue.. SKIPPING to END.

• War Assets: (remember this is the renegade option so war assets counts are different) I.E. lower Assets you have better Rene ending.
• Low Assets: You interrupt Harbinger and tell him that I deserve the power that you have and ill control YOU! Anderson is in disbelief. Argue ensues with Anderson and squad mates. You quick time rene option to kill Anderson and say he been holding humanity back! Harbinger is like excellent.. Squad mates try and tell fleet to destroy harbinger in space, but Reapers killed the fleets.
• High Assets: Same thing starting out, Expect the fleet is alive and kills harbinger in space. (you will see where I am going with this).

• Blue Ending: At this time you look at your squad mates and tell them they either follow you and will remain alive while you control the reapers and bring humanity to forefront. Dialogue.. possible kill off squad mates, some join you.. etc etc. Than battle with harbinger begins (TIM) you kill him. Harbinger says you can control me! Shepard says I already am in control! and uses his new powers to blow up TIM into bits.

• If War Assets are Low: You can choose to die and have your Mental side transfer into harbingers body. Or You can choose to stay in human form and have the Citadel as your flag ship. And choose to save humanity and destroy the others or wipe out everyone. And OR destroy the mass effect relays.
• If War Assets are High: You turn into a flow blown reaper (like TIM) and start following the original program. At this time you can choose to kill your squad mates and start building a reaper inside the Citadel to replace Harbinger thus a stand still has occurred. For now…

AKA YOU DECIDED HOW TO SHAPE THE GALAXY FROM HERE ON OUT.

RED ENDING: (PARAGON) Same thing for GREEN happens 'More dialogue.. Harbinger tells shepard Not so fast, I controller you now like I controlled Saren! Shepard like oh yeah?. More dialogue.. SKIPPING to END'
SAME AS GREEN:
So Enter War Assets:

• If War asset count is high you get a option to tell the fleet to kill Harbinger in space.
• If Fleet asset is low you tell the remaining fleet to protect the Crucible.

• So well assume you have high assets (for writing sakes). Harbinger dies in space. And your like hell yeah we did it. But than Harbinger Takes full control of TIM more dialogue.. Fight scene.

• Final RED: So after your fight scene you like Anderson we did it! Squad mates happy…You hear Hacket call in and say start activation of the Crucible. You walk up and than given a choice to either kill reapers and all AI life...  OR just kill the reapers and secure peace for now... More dialogue..

• Fast forward to Earth: Normady lands, you walk out with your squad mates everyone cheers, see your decisions of the races cheering or not there for you! Say a cool speech to the crowd. Roll black. 

• 1 YEAR (earth year) later. Open back to beach scene or maybe on your house that you won from ME1. Shep is with your LI next to you. And ALL squad mates around fire place having a good time talking, drinking and remembering good times. Show kids maybe?? enter the sappy stuff dialogue ending such as walking around and talking to your squad mates to see where their at now, interactive things (like with Garrus on citadel shooting bottles). 

• Leave with pan out and hear Shepard say "Ima thinking about retiring... than again maybe not."

Ok I know its a lot of TEXT I know, I know; But if you take the time to read it. I think you can understand how this indoc theory for BW could work. It always does not crap on the original endings at all. It helps makes sense of it and adds more choices and closure of what you did in ME franchise.

Overall this is grand idea that my friends and I had when we would play multi or be drinking and thinking about it. Also allows bioware to achieve a "way out" option to help their game.

Ima not going to put a TL;DR in this for I took the time to write this, you should take the time if your in this forum to READ IT. like 7 mins.

[HantaVirus34a]

FellishBeast wrote...

Has anyone experimented with the dreams? Like going the opposite way of the kid? Or just staying still? What happens?

i did it just makes you run back to the center:bandit: