57139 réponses à ce sujet

[aslivewire]

Erethrian wrote...

<snip>

Yeah but I have to agree with other people against this though. I know Shepard's not the normal human but he is, in fact, human. So if he's been indoctrinated, nothing can save him but suicide or someone killing him (Grayson form Retribution is an example of this).

<snip>

Technically speaking, they set up in Mass Effect 1 the possibility (even if it's not likely) of breaking indoctrination. True, it was via being 're-indoctrinated' (the Thorian), but that means it's POSSIBLE. And you even technically revisit her in ME2 and 3 if you didn't execute her.

[greywardencommander]

aslivewire wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

<snip>

Yeah but I have to agree with other people against this though. I know Shepard's not the normal human but he is, in fact, human. So if he's been indoctrinated, nothing can save him but suicide or someone killing him (Grayson form Retribution is an example of this).

<snip>

Technically speaking, they set up in Mass Effect 1 the possibility (even if it's not likely) of breaking indoctrination. True, it was via being 're-indoctrinated' (the Thorian), but that means it's POSSIBLE. And you even technically revisit her in ME2 and 3 if you didn't execute her.

don't forget, i've said it somewhere, he mind-melds with Shiala, that could have inadvertently protected him.

[zakaryzb]

Also, what is the deal with the "Final Hours" app thing? Are we just chalking it up as it was made by a third party and as such they are keeping everything regarding IT or ending DLC under wraps? I'm cool with that but the videos push a lot of things towards the "current ending(s)" as the actual definitive ending that was planned.

[Stigweird85]

I looked at that app I always viewed it as unofficial, just someone trying to cash in. I may be wrong though

[a.m.p]

First of all, you people who dug all this up are amazing. I never believed the IT was planned, but I really think that’s the best way out of the current mess.

So the community has been coming up with ideas how to build an ending from the indoctrination theory. I am a bit late to the party, but thought I might contribute. Had a bigger post with different options, will post just the IT-relevant stuff here.

Let’s say the Crucible is a simple off switch that disables all reapers everywhere and blows up relays as a side effect. TIM was on the citadel but the reapers killed him as soon as he delivered the citadel to them, so we don’t have to deal with him anymore. (that is a personal preference because tim annoys me to no end since me2, I can’t come up with any good ideas on how to deal with him either than just shoot him on sight). Anderson and a few generic soldiers follow you onto the citadel in every option and heroically die there, holding back opposition so you and your team can get to the crucible control panel.

  Three options result in:

1.    Destroy – you wake up in London, in control of yourself, wounded but still capable to fight. Harbinger flew away, because the Normandy and a bunch of ships attacked it. Now it’s about to come back on your head again. Your squad joins you, also burned and wounded. Then you move onto the citadel where you fight through more opposition. But since all you previously saw was a hallucination you are not sure about the whole blowing up relays thing. You share your doubts with squadmates who provide a reasonable assessment just how bad that would be for the galaxy. You get to the crucible, find out it will indeed blow up relays. You choose whether to do it or not.

2.    Synthesis – you wake up partially indoctrinated, tim-eyes and all, but still in control. You have to persuade your squadmates to even follow you. Shortly before the very end, at the console, that just the three of you reached, a cutscene starts where you are about to shoot one of your squadmates in the back. Paragon interrupt to instead shoot yourself. If you don’t take it, the other teammate (never a LI) shoots you instead. Team finishes the job depending on what you did with the collector base. If you blew it up, they blow reapers up. If you kept it, they don’t.

3.    Control. You wake up and you are indoctrinated. Same as synthesis, you persuade the team to trust you, enter the citadel, fight your way to the control room, but it’s easy, because the reaper forces are actually giving you way. Before the console you shoot everyone in a cutscene. You don’t get the interrupt to stop it. You watch them die and that shakes you out of it for a moment. You approach the console and choose whether to push the button or not. Then indoctrination sets back in, and you have to do another interrupt to shoot yourself. If don’t, you sabotage the crucible and outcome depends on EMS.

Cue either a red explosion or a space battle, outcome of which depends on EMS

[UrgentArchengel]

My take on Indoctrination Theory.

Let me say this to start, Shepard is NOT immune to indoctrination. Yes, he has been surrounded in Reaper tech throughout the trilogy, but for some reason, he's never gotten indoctrinated. To be truly indoctrinated is to be under the Reapers' influence. Since Shepard is trying to turn those space squids into space dust, he can't be indoctrinated.

Now on to whats up with the Kid. The kid himself is just a illusion created by the Reapers to break down Shepard's strong will. But how can the Reapers influence Shepard like this if his will is so strong? Easy! Remember, Shepard's tried over this Reaper crap, he just wants to just sit, like Anderson at the end. His will is slowly weakening, thinking he may not win and that this would not end good. This leaves his will vulnerable enough to be influence if only a tiny bit, but it was just enough to show the manifestation of the child. Plus, don't forget that even if one doesn't act indoctrinated, a mass Apperance of Reapers like the assault of Earth will cause them to become indoctrinated ala the Asari from Saren's base. Because of this, Shepard was influenced enough to have that illusion of the child manifested. Because of this he begins his slow fall to indoctrination.

Reasons he loses will power:
•Years on the subject.
•Attack on Earth
•Death of the Child
•Worries of Earth and his people
•Fall of Palavaan(sp?)
•Situation of the Citadel-Refugees/Memorial
•Cerberus
•Injured Ashley/Kaiden
•Hearing about the fall of other planets
•Failing to protect Thessia/got his beat by Kai Leng.
•Reports that Earth is not good right now
•Dealing with Batarians over Alpha Relay
•Seeing Sanctuary
•Losing friends
•Dealing with old grudges between races.
•Learning the Reapers have taken the Citadel(lots of death?)
•Seeing Earth being overrun, "doesn't even look the same."
•The last push-Being attacked by Harbinger-Thinking he's gonna die.

Reasons his will is still strong:
•His friends and lovers
•The crucible
•A deep hope for a better future w/out reapers

After being hit by Harby, I believe everything that has came before about it being a fight to free your self. But in Illusive Man, controlling Shepard, yes. Controlling Anderson, no. Even if Shepard knows that TIM he has gotten implants, complete control over Anderson can't be possible for a mere human.

What happens next? No freaking clue. Maybe they go to Ilos, maybe they Actually enter the Earth conduit and blow the Reapers away. Who knows. Remember, this is all my opinion, but feel free to tear my post apart and speculate further.

[Erethrian]

a.m.p wrote...

First of all, you people who dug all this
up are amazing. I never believed the IT was planned, but I really think
that’s the best way out of the current mess.

So the community has
been coming up with ideas how to build an ending from the
indoctrination theory. I am a bit late to the party, but thought I might
contribute. Had a bigger post with different options, will post just
the IT-relevant stuff here.

Let’s say the Crucible is a simple
off switch that disables all reapers everywhere and blows up relays as a
side effect. TIM was on the citadel but the reapers killed him as soon
as he delivered the citadel to them, so we don’t have to deal with him
anymore. (that is a personal preference because tim annoys me to no end
since me2, I can’t come up with any good ideas on how to deal with him
either than just shoot him on sight). Anderson and a few generic
soldiers follow you onto the citadel in every option and heroically die
there, holding back opposition so you and your team can get to the
crucible control panel.

  Three options result in:

1.    Destroy
– you wake up in London, in control of yourself, wounded but still
capable to fight. Harbinger flew away, because the Normandy and a bunch
of ships attacked it. Now it’s about to come back on your head again.
Your squad joins you, also burned and wounded. Then you move onto the
citadel where you fight through more opposition. But since all you
previously saw was a hallucination you are not sure about the whole
blowing up relays thing. You share your doubts with squadmates who
provide a reasonable assessment just how bad that would be for the
galaxy. You get to the crucible, find out it will indeed blow up relays.
You choose whether to do it or not.

2.    Synthesis – you
wake up partially indoctrinated, tim-eyes and all, but still in
control. You have to persuade your squadmates to even follow you.
Shortly before the very end, at the console, that just the three of you
reached, a cutscene starts where you are about to shoot one of your
squadmates in the back. Paragon interrupt to instead shoot yourself. If
you don’t take it, the other teammate (never a LI) shoots you instead.
Team finishes the job depending on what you did with the collector base.
If you blew it up, they blow reapers up. If you kept it, they don’t.

3.    Control.
You wake up and you are indoctrinated. Same as synthesis, you persuade
the team to trust you, enter the citadel, fight your way to the control
room, but it’s easy, because the reaper forces are actually giving you
way. Before the console you shoot everyone in a cutscene. You don’t get
the interrupt to stop it. You watch them die and that shakes you out of
it for a moment. You approach the console and choose whether to push the
button or not. Then indoctrination sets back in, and you have to do
another interrupt to shoot yourself. If don’t, you sabotage the crucible
and outcome depends on EMS.

Cue either a red explosion or a space battle, outcome of which depends on EMS

UrgentArchengel wrote...

My take on Indoctrination Theory.

Let me say this to start, Shepard is NOT immune to indoctrination. Yes, he has been surrounded in Reaper tech throughout the trilogy, but for some reason, he's never gotten indoctrinated. To be truly indoctrinated is to be under the Reapers' influence. Since Shepard is trying to turn those space squids into space dust, he can't be indoctrinated.

Now on to whats up with the Kid. The kid himself is just a illusion created by the Reapers to break down Shepard's strong will. But how can the Reapers influence Shepard like this if his will is so strong? Easy! Remember, Shepard's tried over this Reaper crap, he just wants to just sit, like Anderson at the end. His will is slowly weakening, thinking he may not win and that this would not end good. This leaves his will vulnerable enough to be influence if only a tiny bit, but it was just enough to show the manifestation of the child. Plus, don't forget that even if one doesn't act indoctrinated, a mass Apperance of Reapers like the assault of Earth will cause them to become indoctrinated ala the Asari from Saren's base. Because of this, Shepard was influenced enough to have that illusion of the child manifested. Because of this he begins his slow fall to indoctrination.

Reasons he loses will power:
•Years on the subject.
•Attack on Earth
•Death of the Child
•Worries of Earth and his people
•Fall of Palavaan(sp?)
•Situation of the Citadel-Refugees/Memorial
•Cerberus
•Injured Ashley/Kaiden
•Hearing about the fall of other planets
•Failing to protect Thessia/got his beat by Kai Leng.
•Reports that Earth is not good right now
•Dealing with Batarians over Alpha Relay
•Seeing Sanctuary
•Losing friends
•Dealing with old grudges between races.
•Learning the Reapers have taken the Citadel(lots of death?)
•Seeing Earth being overrun, "doesn't even look the same."
•The last push-Being attacked by Harbinger-Thinking he's gonna die.

Reasons his will is still strong:
•His friends and lovers
•The crucible
•A deep hope for a better future w/out reapers

After being hit by Harby, I believe everything that has came before about it being a fight to free your self. But in Illusive Man, controlling Shepard, yes. Controlling Anderson, no. Even if Shepard knows that TIM he has gotten implants, complete control over Anderson can't be possible for a mere human.

What happens next? No freaking clue. Maybe they go to Ilos, maybe they Actually enter the Earth conduit and blow the Reapers away. Who knows. Remember, this is all my opinion, but feel free to tear my post apart and speculate further.

Amazing reads, both! 

[Tiax Rules All]

Glad to see the theory is still holding strong in here. Keep it up guys.

[UrgentArchengel]

Bump!

[greywardencommander]

I have an idea (see my thread in signature) i'm just adding it now

keep the starchild (but it's not actually the starchild) idea as the one who controls the reapers but I personally like the idea that Shepard is the Catalyst.
The starchild in reality in the real ending is an AI that explains the three choices and is left over from whoever designed the reapers in the event that organics and species might someday co-exist peacefully

Thus you can persuade the AI to shut down the reapers by interacting with it, it sees in your mind you're telling the truth re. Geth and shuts them down. If you haven't made them co-exist you shut down the reapers but it also shuts down the geth and AI - how's that for making your choices matter

[Stigweird85]

Interesting addition there, but if I can add Jarvik states and starchild(Godboy) whatever both say that eventual synthetics will overthrow their creators

So the question is who did the synthetic reapers overthrow? This also lends credence to your AI theory as if reapers were servants then they may have been built with a kill switch

[greywardencommander]

bigstig wrote...

Interesting addition there, but if I can add Jarvik states and starchild(Godboy) whatever both say that eventual synthetics will overthrow their creators

So the question is who did the synthetic reapers overthrow? This also lends credence to your AI theory as if reapers were servants then they may have been built with a kill switch

We don't need to know who they overthrew because
a) they can still be created by whoever was at risk of being overthrown or even BE the overthrown races protection of themselves, they're all within the reapers who knows
and in either case there's no problem with some mystery regarding the reapers for future titles

That can be Javik's personal opinion based on his own cycle and Starchild's an embellishment of the truth to convince you not to destroy the Reapers. In reality the Reapers could have been built to protect organics until such a time as peaceful co-existing is possible. Shepard is the 'catalyst' both in activating the crucible and in making peace possible.

I've added this into my thread too re. the reapers

Modifié par greywardencommander, 22 mars 2012 - 10:19 .

[greywardencommander]

gone quiet...something happen?

[UrgentArchengel]

Too quiet.....

[nyrocron]

We know the truth but won't tell you!

Modifié par nyrocron, 22 mars 2012 - 10:27 .

[UrgentArchengel]

nyrocron wrote...

We know the truth but won't tell you!

:lol:

[Fubarman]

My response is to OP, sorry everyone that I won't sift through 800 pages. You're really overthinking this man, and even if shepard was indoctrinated we see the reapers leave earth, we see joker crash on an unknown planet, we also get the stargazers and they look pretty human to me.

Now I'm sorry I don't have names I should google it, but didn't a main writer leave after some endings had been developed and leaked. And didn't bioware change it, but kept some of the material. It's possible that there was an indoctrinated ending planned and some of the subtlies got overlooked.

Also just to argue the indoctrination theory the destroying the reapers (your beating the indoctrination) really doesn't differ from the others. Why would it show them dieing if the whole thing was a dream? And what does it matter if shepards indoctrinated if he's buried in a pile of rubble? How does that help the reapers? None of it makes any sense it all needs to be scraped.

[greywardencommander]

Fubarman wrote...

My response is to OP, sorry everyone that I won't sift through 800 pages. You're really overthinking this man, and even if shepard was indoctrinated we see the reapers leave earth, we see joker crash on an unknown planet, we also get the stargazers and they look pretty human to me.

Now I'm sorry I don't have names I should google it, but didn't a main writer leave after some endings had been developed and leaked. And didn't bioware change it, but kept some of the material. It's possible that there was an indoctrinated ending planned and some of the subtlies got overlooked.

Also just to argue the indoctrination theory the destroying the reapers (your beating the indoctrination) really doesn't differ from the others. Why would it show them dieing if the whole thing was a dream? And what does it matter if shepards indoctrinated if he's buried in a pile of rubble? How does that help the reapers? None of it makes any sense it all needs to be scraped.

That's why the idea is based on the fact it's all in his head and is the fight in his mind, it was scrapped in terms of gameplay mechanic, how could it work being controlled but the player controlling Shepard at the same time, the app doesn't say the whole idea was scrapped, why bring it up at all in the app unless it was a hint?

As for the Joker crashing - his belief, and shown in his mind, they'll always make it no matter what

The stargazers are human - Shepard saves the day in the ending dlc
Here's how i would make it work
http://social.biowar.../index/10350970 

Modifié par greywardencommander, 22 mars 2012 - 10:34 .

[Stigweird85]

Yes fubarman at some point Bioware intended Shep to loose control to the reapers but was scrapped due o issues in the gameplay mechanic

The former headwriter Drew Kerpyshen (I know I have misspelled that) left recently but it wasn't u til after completion of the story(I hope)

[UrgentArchengel]

What those two said

[greywardencommander]

bigstig wrote...

Yes fubarman at some point Bioware intended Shep to loose control to the reapers but was scrapped due o issues in the gameplay mechanic

The former headwriter Drew Kerpyshen (I know I have misspelled that) left recently but it wasn't u til after completion of the story(I hope)

He wasn't involved in ME3 at all really so it wouldn't matter even if he did he was too busy doing his novels

[KILLER SQUIDZ]

a.m.p wrote...

First of all, you people who dug all this up are amazing. I never believed the IT was planned, but I really think that’s the best way out of the current mess.

So the community has been coming up with ideas how to build an ending from the indoctrination theory. I am a bit late to the party, but thought I might contribute. Had a bigger post with different options, will post just the IT-relevant stuff here.

Let’s say the Crucible is a simple off switch that disables all reapers everywhere and blows up relays as a side effect. TIM was on the citadel but the reapers killed him as soon as he delivered the citadel to them, so we don’t have to deal with him anymore. (that is a personal preference because tim annoys me to no end since me2, I can’t come up with any good ideas on how to deal with him either than just shoot him on sight). Anderson and a few generic soldiers follow you onto the citadel in every option and heroically die there, holding back opposition so you and your team can get to the crucible control panel.

  Three options result in:

1.    Destroy – you wake up in London, in control of yourself, wounded but still capable to fight. Harbinger flew away, because the Normandy and a bunch of ships attacked it. Now it’s about to come back on your head again. Your squad joins you, also burned and wounded. Then you move onto the citadel where you fight through more opposition. But since all you previously saw was a hallucination you are not sure about the whole blowing up relays thing. You share your doubts with squadmates who provide a reasonable assessment just how bad that would be for the galaxy. You get to the crucible, find out it will indeed blow up relays. You choose whether to do it or not.

2.    Synthesis – you wake up partially indoctrinated, tim-eyes and all, but still in control. You have to persuade your squadmates to even follow you. Shortly before the very end, at the console, that just the three of you reached, a cutscene starts where you are about to shoot one of your squadmates in the back. Paragon interrupt to instead shoot yourself. If you don’t take it, the other teammate (never a LI) shoots you instead. Team finishes the job depending on what you did with the collector base. If you blew it up, they blow reapers up. If you kept it, they don’t.

3.    Control. You wake up and you are indoctrinated. Same as synthesis, you persuade the team to trust you, enter the citadel, fight your way to the control room, but it’s easy, because the reaper forces are actually giving you way. Before the console you shoot everyone in a cutscene. You don’t get the interrupt to stop it. You watch them die and that shakes you out of it for a moment. You approach the console and choose whether to push the button or not. Then indoctrination sets back in, and you have to do another interrupt to shoot yourself. If don’t, you sabotage the crucible and outcome depends on EMS.

Cue either a red explosion or a space battle, outcome of which depends on EMS

Aside from the destruction of the relays, these are awesome ideas. My only problem with relay destruction is that they've settled that relay explosions take out entire systems... so unless they make up some bs excuse (like the current one does... except there is no excuse, just space magic ) then it would make more sense for them to either stay intact, or to be destroyed but also kill everyone else... which would suck.

[Cpt_Hook]

Just wondering if someone has noticed that before.
When Shepard sits beside Anderson on the Citadel he is starting to bleed from nose and mouth and at the belly where he has shot Anderson, his arm becomes soaked in blood. But when he is on the Crucible this additional blood is gone from his arm and face.

[N7xELITE]

Cpt_Hook wrote...

Just wondering if someone has noticed that before.
When Shepard sits beside Anderson on the Citadel he is starting to bleed from nose and mouth and at the belly where he has shot Anderson, his arm becomes soaked in blood. But when he is on the Crucible this additional blood is gone from his arm and face.

Space magic 

[Cpt_Hook]

N7xELITE wrote...

Cpt_Hook wrote...

Just wondering if someone has noticed that before.
When Shepard sits beside Anderson on the Citadel he is starting to bleed from nose and mouth and at the belly where he has shot Anderson, his arm becomes soaked in blood. But when he is on the Crucible this additional blood is gone from his arm and face.

Space magic 

Perhaps there was a yellow light to get you clean again...