57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Serp86]

kylecouch wrote...

Welp...one more reason to hate the ending we've got...

Who the hell cut that out much dialogue ? Or do you only get that family part when you don't haven an LI ?

[hismastersvoice]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Welp...one more reason to hate the ending we've got...

Good lord, the tears, they won't stop.

Someone, hand me a tissue....

Modifié par hismastersvoice, 11 mars 2012 - 04:14 .

[TheRevanchist]

Also Bioware told us we would have a big reveal about Shepards identity in this game.....did I miss something? or was this is another lie?

[SomeBug]

From Ashes was known well before release because Microsoft certification is a sponge of loose lips.

If there was ANY dlc planned for release in the next 2 months we'd know.

[Tourgasm]

kylecouch wrote...

Also Bioware told us we would have a big reveal about Shepards identity in this game.....did I miss something? or was this is another lie?

It was hinted that Shep might be prohean or indoctrinated by the ammount of exposure to reaper/prohean tech he had.

[Kveki]

SomeBug wrote...

From Ashes was known well before release because Microsoft certification is a sponge of loose lips.

If there was ANY dlc planned for release in the next 2 months we'd know.

It was common knowledge that CE will have a prothean character right after it was announced...DLC happend because CE has been sold out....That is why...There is still hop for this theory to be true

[thePredator50]

lookingglassmind wrote...

In defense of the Hallucination/Indoctrination theory: the BioWare/Player Indoctrination Theory

With the assistance of my peers throughout the rest of this thread, I have collated a series of facts that I would like to present to the community as being evidence for a a priori intention for the endings of ME3. Some of this information will not be new to a lot of you, and it may seem downright strange to a lot of you. It does require a strong and disorienting amount of suspension of disbelief, so if you cannot engage in this type of thought process, I encourage you to skip over this post. It will hurt your brain. Or make you think that I'm crazy. Likely both. (I'm okay with either.)

With the assistance of countless others' highly important observations in this thread, I sumbit to you that possibility the endings of ME3 represent the highest form of the metagaming experience. The highest form of BioWare's "giving the player choice that matters, from ME1 to ME3". The highest form of player interaction that we have yet seen from a video game. This has never before been attempted by a company, and it represents the ballsiest dedication to story and lore that may exist.

I believe that the endings may be indicative of BioWare attempting to allow the player the real-time experience of what indoctrination would be like. This theory explains (in a highly weird, impossible, and completely insane way) all of the missing pieces in the hallucination sequence, and also explains BioWare's real-world actions (such as complete silence since the fan sh*tstorm broke in response to the endings).

If you have not been keeping up with the thread, or if you have not read Byne's/Kitten Tactics/Turtlicious' amalgamation of all of the evidence we have accumulated for the originial hallucination theory on page 1, then I would urge you to do so before you read any more of this post. Due to time constraints, I won't be posting all of the evidences that we have located in this post to confirm or contradict this theory: I leave it in your capable and self-aware hands to attain this information yourself. I am posting this as an add-on to page 1, as I don't think it was properly represented there in its entire grand scope.

So, to the meat of the issue:

We have already established as much evidence as we can that 'proves' that Shepard is either hallucinating/dreaming just prior to/immediately after he runs into Harbinger's beam/Conduit. The hallucination/dream sequence has been quite well fleshed out, with a lot of compelling environmental evidence to support it (again, please see page 1 for further analysis). I am going to use this particular vehicle of suspension of disbelief to propose that BioWare's intention during this sequence is to flag the player with as many markers as they can: This current reality playing before your eyes (the Citadel, the Catalyst, TIM, Anderson) is a reflection of Shepard. It is the product of his/her mind. The meeting with the Catalyst may or may not be rooted in reality; they may meet in some metalphysical dimension, or Shepard may just hallucinate the entire thing. Either way, this theory would argue that it essentially doesn't matter, because what truly matters is the role of the player in this sequence. Your role. The scene is set in a way that urges the player to become aware of things just not being right, of being a place that mirrors (literally) Shepard's experiences throughout the game. The reality presented on the Citadel is an amalgamation of archetypes of every thing Shepard has seen in the series, which this theory challenges the player to understand as being a direct prompt from BioWare to understand that what is truly happening during this scene is all within Shepard's mind. His/her reality. Under her/his control.

Understanding that the reality on the Citadel as being a cerebral concoction that is entirely of Shepard's creation is important when we arrive upon the Crucible. It becomes a vital understanding when we are faced with these three, seemingly bizarre and unexpected choices that the Catalyst gives us. This theory submits that BioWare is asking the player to actively question EVERYTHING that happens once Shepard runs into Harbinger's beam. The cost of not questioning, or making the right choice even if you do?

Real-time player indoctrination. Shepard's literal death.

Think about it carefully. We arrive on the Crucible, and are faced with an archetype of manipulation, the Catalyst. Taking the form of a child that has come to represent everything that is horrendous about the Reapers to Shepard, the Catalyst/Harbinger provides Shepard with three strange and disorienting choices. He first presents Shepard with the option of Destroy, making swift and empty assertations about how it is the wrong choice because it would kill all synthetic life and Shepard herself/himself. At its surface, this seems like the renegade/chaos option, and is even insidiously portrayed in Renegade Red, a direct nod to the Player himself/herself. Directly appealing to your experiences with how the game works. He then goes on at great length about the Control and Synthesis options, portraying Control as the blue paragon/order option. Again, directly appealing to the Player. He argues that Control is the best option, implies that Shepard is the new Catalyst, and leaves us to contemplate the possibility that we could use it to try and save the people we love; after all, we are Shepard, and we would never become like TIM. Synthesis is the last option explored, and it is portrayed as a compromise or as being the Brave New Hope for the galaxy. I have a suspicion that Synthesis may actually  be the 'perfect' choice, but that is for another theory. (If you're curious, read about the tech-singularity lore within the game, and research humes spork's posts about the singularity within this thread.) Either way, Synthesis smacks of strangeness because it seems so inherently Reaper-oriented. As though it were servicing the Reapers' philosophy more strongly than the other two options.

This moment, when you are standing there, agonizing over your choice? This is your indoctrination moment. This is where, it could be (fantastically and insanely) argued that this is the moment when indoctrination and all of its insidious power becomes as real as it possibly CAN be to the Player. Think about it! We stand there. We agonize. We freak out about the ridiculous choices, and we wonder (like Shepard would) why we just can't ARUGE with the Catalyst (like Shepard would). And then, as this reality seems to be the only way forward (much like how indoctrination presents a version of reality to the indoctrinated that he/she sees as being the ONLY REAL OPTION -- echoes of TIM, Kai Leng, Saren here), we begin to accept it. Tremulously, we start to make our choice.

If you choose Control, then you, the player -- the one who moves through the game though Shepard's eyes; every choice s/he has ever made in the game has been directly because of you -- have been indoctrinated. It may have been because you thought you could save your crew, your LI, or that you really could gain perfect Control over the Reapers because you are Shepard. Regardless, you have been duped. Indoctrinated by the game. Your slow exposure to the Reapers in 2007 culminates to this final choice -- complete and free player agency and determination.

If you choose Synthesis, you face a fate similar to that of Control. It's debatable to me at this point as to whether or not you have chosen to fulfill the Reapers' purpose, but indoctrination is still a heavy possibility with this one. The only reason that I state this with any certainty is because, like the ending we see with Control, Shepard is dead at the final credits.

If you choose Destroy, then the Player Indoctrination Theory submits that this is you, the player, deciding whether or not Shepard overcomes the indoctrination attempt being rained upon him/her by Harbinger/the Catalyst. If you decide this option, and if you have enough EMS to ensure that Shepard has enough real-world time to get through the indoctrination attempt/hallucination -- Shepard lives. We see him/her breathing in the rubble of London streets at the end of the game. Shepard has defied indoctrination. You, yourself, have defied indoctrination.

Does this theory make sense? Maybe not. When we consider BioWare's real-world motivations and risks (profit, losing a large fanbase over the disgusting wretchedness of the endings as they currently exist), then the theory is hard to support. But if, for just one moment, we can let ourselves believe that BioWare may just have lived up to their celebrated philiosophy of Player Choice and Player Acutalization, then this theory becomes awe-inspiring. Is it possible? Could BioWare have sacrificed the potential for safe profits in order to bring the most insane and beautiful gaming experience of all time to its fans? The most unprecedented example of player immersion of our times? Would BioWare have truly allowed the risk for profit and angering a serious amount of their fan population in pure deference to the story, and its lore?

It may explain BioWare's silence on the matter, until "more people have played the game", or until all regions have the game. It may explain Jess M.'s twitter about fans "reacting before having all of the facts". It may.... just may explain these super sh*tty endings in a way that would make BioWare the God of RPGs.

Is it likely? No. Am I reaching, insanely? Yes.

But is it possible?

Yes.

I choose to believe in Bioware. It might be my undoing, but I trust that they have something more planned.

[tuzem2]

lookingglassmind wrote...

In defense of the Hallucination/Indoctrination theory: the BioWare/Player Indoctrination Theory

With the assistance of my peers throughout the rest of this thread, I have collated a series of facts that I would like to present to the community as being evidence for a a priori intention for the endings of ME3. Some of this information will not be new to a lot of you, and it may seem downright strange to a lot of you. It does require a strong and disorienting amount of suspension of disbelief, so if you cannot engage in this type of thought process, I encourage you to skip over this post. It will hurt your brain. Or make you think that I'm crazy. Likely both. (I'm okay with either.)

With the assistance of countless others' highly important observations in this thread, I sumbit to you that possibility the endings of ME3 represent the highest form of the metagaming experience. The highest form of BioWare's "giving the player choice that matters, from ME1 to ME3". The highest form of player interaction that we have yet seen from a video game. This has never before been attempted by a company, and it represents the ballsiest dedication to story and lore that may exist.

I believe that the endings may be indicative of BioWare attempting to allow the player the real-time experience of what indoctrination would be like. This theory explains (in a highly weird, impossible, and completely insane way) all of the missing pieces in the hallucination sequence, and also explains BioWare's real-world actions (such as complete silence since the fan sh*tstorm broke in response to the endings).

If you have not been keeping up with the thread, or if you have not read Byne's/Kitten Tactics/Turtlicious' amalgamation of all of the evidence we have accumulated for the originial hallucination theory on page 1, then I would urge you to do so before you read any more of this post. Due to time constraints, I won't be posting all of the evidences that we have located in this post to confirm or contradict this theory: I leave it in your capable and self-aware hands to attain this information yourself. I am posting this as an add-on to page 1, as I don't think it was properly represented there in its entire grand scope.

So, to the meat of the issue:

We have already established as much evidence as we can that 'proves' that Shepard is either hallucinating/dreaming just prior to/immediately after he runs into Harbinger's beam/Conduit. The hallucination/dream sequence has been quite well fleshed out, with a lot of compelling environmental evidence to support it (again, please see page 1 for further analysis). I am going to use this particular vehicle of suspension of disbelief to propose that BioWare's intention during this sequence is to flag the player with as many markers as they can: This current reality playing before your eyes (the Citadel, the Catalyst, TIM, Anderson) is a reflection of Shepard. It is the product of his/her mind. The meeting with the Catalyst may or may not be rooted in reality; they may meet in some metalphysical dimension, or Shepard may just hallucinate the entire thing. Either way, this theory would argue that it essentially doesn't matter, because what truly matters is the role of the player in this sequence. Your role. The scene is set in a way that urges the player to become aware of things just not being right, of being a place that mirrors (literally) Shepard's experiences throughout the game. The reality presented on the Citadel is an amalgamation of archetypes of every thing Shepard has seen in the series, which this theory challenges the player to understand as being a direct prompt from BioWare to understand that what is truly happening during this scene is all within Shepard's mind. His/her reality. Under her/his control.

Understanding that the reality on the Citadel as being a cerebral concoction that is entirely of Shepard's creation is important when we arrive upon the Crucible. It becomes a vital understanding when we are faced with these three, seemingly bizarre and unexpected choices that the Catalyst gives us. This theory submits that BioWare is asking the player to actively question EVERYTHING that happens once Shepard runs into Harbinger's beam. The cost of not questioning, or making the right choice even if you do?

Real-time player indoctrination. Shepard's literal death.

Think about it carefully. We arrive on the Crucible, and are faced with an archetype of manipulation, the Catalyst. Taking the form of a child that has come to represent everything that is horrendous about the Reapers to Shepard, the Catalyst/Harbinger provides Shepard with three strange and disorienting choices. He first presents Shepard with the option of Destroy, making swift and empty assertations about how it is the wrong choice because it would kill all synthetic life and Shepard herself/himself. At its surface, this seems like the renegade/chaos option, and is even insidiously portrayed in Renegade Red, a direct nod to the Player himself/herself. Directly appealing to your experiences with how the game works. He then goes on at great length about the Control and Synthesis options, portraying Control as the blue paragon/order option. Again, directly appealing to the Player. He argues that Control is the best option, implies that Shepard is the new Catalyst, and leaves us to contemplate the possibility that we could use it to try and save the people we love; after all, we are Shepard, and we would never become like TIM. Synthesis is the last option explored, and it is portrayed as a compromise or as being the Brave New Hope for the galaxy. I have a suspicion that Synthesis may actually  be the 'perfect' choice, but that is for another theory. (If you're curious, read about the tech-singularity lore within the game, and research humes spork's posts about the singularity within this thread.) Either way, Synthesis smacks of strangeness because it seems so inherently Reaper-oriented. As though it were servicing the Reapers' philosophy more strongly than the other two options.

This moment, when you are standing there, agonizing over your choice? This is your indoctrination moment. This is where, it could be (fantastically and insanely) argued that this is the moment when indoctrination and all of its insidious power becomes as real as it possibly CAN be to the Player. Think about it! We stand there. We agonize. We freak out about the ridiculous choices, and we wonder (like Shepard would) why we just can't ARUGE with the Catalyst (like Shepard would). And then, as this reality seems to be the only way forward (much like how indoctrination presents a version of reality to the indoctrinated that he/she sees as being the ONLY REAL OPTION -- echoes of TIM, Kai Leng, Saren here), we begin to accept it. Tremulously, we start to make our choice.

If you choose Control, then you, the player -- the one who moves through the game though Shepard's eyes; every choice s/he has ever made in the game has been directly because of you -- have been indoctrinated. It may have been because you thought you could save your crew, your LI, or that you really could gain perfect Control over the Reapers because you are Shepard. Regardless, you have been duped. Indoctrinated by the game. Your slow exposure to the Reapers in 2007 culminates to this final choice -- complete and free player agency and determination.

If you choose Synthesis, you face a fate similar to that of Control. It's debatable to me at this point as to whether or not you have chosen to fulfill the Reapers' purpose, but indoctrination is still a heavy possibility with this one. The only reason that I state this with any certainty is because, like the ending we see with Control, Shepard is dead at the final credits.

If you choose Destroy, then the Player Indoctrination Theory submits that this is you, the player, deciding whether or not Shepard overcomes the indoctrination attempt being rained upon him/her by Harbinger/the Catalyst. If you decide this option, and if you have enough EMS to ensure that Shepard has enough real-world time to get through the indoctrination attempt/hallucination -- Shepard lives. We see him/her breathing in the rubble of London streets at the end of the game. Shepard has defied indoctrination. You, yourself, have defied indoctrination.

Does this theory make sense? Maybe not. When we consider BioWare's real-world motivations and risks (profit, losing a large fanbase over the disgusting wretchedness of the endings as they currently exist), then the theory is hard to support. But if, for just one moment, we can let ourselves believe that BioWare may just have lived up to their celebrated philiosophy of Player Choice and Player Acutalization, then this theory becomes awe-inspiring. Is it possible? Could BioWare have sacrificed the potential for safe profits in order to bring the most insane and beautiful gaming experience of all time to its fans? The most unprecedented example of player immersion of our times? Would BioWare have truly allowed the risk for profit and angering a serious amount of their fan population in pure deference to the story, and its lore?

It may explain BioWare's silence on the matter, until "more people have played the game", or until all regions have the game. It may explain Jess M.'s twitter about fans "reacting before having all of the facts". It may.... just may explain these super sh*tty endings in a way that would make BioWare the God of RPGs.

Is it likely? No. Am I reaching, insanely? Yes.

But is it possible?

Yes.

Support, hope and believe!

[thePredator50]

Pcmag1 wrote...

Hello, I am following the thread, I can't contribute to thread but i think I found another evidence. I am re-watching the final video and there are contradictions God-Boy he/it is inconsistent:
When he approaches:

1)Child: Why are you here? (It seems he is confused. But check 6))

2)Shepard: Who are you? 
Child: I am the Catalyst. (fair enough)
Child: The reapers are mine, I control them they are my solution.
Later:
Child: But we found a way to stop that from happening.
(so suddenly it goes from I to we. (We as in a reaper or reapers?))
and finally:
Child: No. We harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the younger ones alone. (So there, he admitted to be the harvester)

3)Sheppard: We would like to keep our old form.
Child: No, you can't. (Well here he is outright lying and at the same time confirming that he offers only
destruction. You cannot keep your form, at least 2 of three choices are lies)
Child: Without us to stop it, the synthetic would destroy all organic ... (again this time he is admits he takes active part in the process)

4)Shepard: when talking about hope : Without that we might as well be machines just like you. 
Child: You have a choice. (He does nothing to disprove that he in fact is a machine, so he either is a reaper or is a machine that created reapers.) 

5)Child: You have a choice more than you deserve. (So even though he is helping them he doesn't find humans a least bit respectable) 

6)Child: What you came here to do. You came here to destroy us. (Reapers) + check 1) even his introduction was insincere)

There is more but I believe that was already summed up. 

Just got this over PM. I'd like to add that if you're a Paragon the child wakes you up with "Wake up", not "Why are you here".

[revo76]

we got our answer:

https://twitter.com/...692740471721985

[GHernandez18]

kylecouch wrote...

Welp...one more reason to hate the ending we've got...

Had this been put in the game it wouldve made an ending I imagined possible.

Shepard & Ashley have a kid after destroying the reapers. (Whether he lives/dies) Baby Shepard continues Mass Effect in a new trilogy.

[Ainyan42]

revo76 wrote...

we got our answer:

https://twitter.com/...692740471721985

She tweeted that last night and she does make a point to remind us that she's not a dev, she's "just" the CM. And as CMs love to remind us - they only know what the devs tell them.

[AlCord]

Ok Jessica Merizan also thinks it is some sort of hallucination.

Also I have found this on the German forums. There are some mirrir-inverted signs in the Citadel

http://www.globalgam...23&d=1331451986

2nd

oi41.tinypic.com/2nvgso4.jpg

Or it is just bad texturing

Modifié par DerNix, 11 mars 2012 - 04:36 .

[KroganBillie]

revo76 wrote...

we got our answer:

https://twitter.com/...692740471721985

There may be hope after all...

[legion999]

kylecouch wrote...

Welp...one more reason to hate the ending we've got...

... How? How did we get heart wrenching scenes with Thane, Mordin, Legion and Anderson but two minutes afterwards get what we got?

The ending has to be a hallucination otherwise... I don't even know what I'd do.

PS: If you do create ending DLC put this scene in.

[I_Jedi]

There's also caulk problems if you go back to the "elevator." They didn't even create the place right.

[tuzem2]

Where is Mordin when we need a solution for a complicated problem

[Lugaidster]

To be perfectly honest, I truly believe this is the true part. But I just don't see a dlc/ending extension coming... I honest-to-god hope I'm wrong in the latter.

[GreenSoda]

DerNix wrote...

Ok Jessica Merizan also thinks it is some sort of hallucination.

Also I have found this on the German forums. There are some mirrir-inverted signs in the Citadel

http://www.globalgam...23&d=1331451986

2nd

oi41.tinypic.com/2nvgso4.jpg

Or it is just bad texturing

Those two pictures are from this very thread -10, 20 pages back.

[AlCord]

GreenSoda wrote...

DerNix wrote...

Ok Jessica Merizan also thinks it is some sort of hallucination.

Also I have found this on the German forums. There are some mirrir-inverted signs in the Citadel

http://www.globalgam...23&d=1331451986

2nd

oi41.tinypic.com/2nvgso4.jpg

Or it is just bad texturing

Those two pictures are from this very thread -10, 20 pages back.

Damn. I have to sleep less I think

[Yuzna75]

The really sad part is that they got a lot of feedback after the script was leaked in November, obviously they didn't really listen. I am not too happy with bioware right now, sure Swtor wasn't terrible but DA 2 was not good and the ending here was horrible. The fact that the rest of ME 3 was good gets overshadowed by the nonchalant ending.

[rogueagent6]

@ SomeBug

Why do you care so much that we believe this theory fits? Is it hurting you in any way? All throughout the games, novels, etc., indoctrination has been a huge issue. As I've stated before, ANY reaper tech has been discovered to capable of indoctrination. How much reaper tech has Shepard been around throughout the game? How much do you think is on Earth leading up to Harbinger blasting you? Again on Sanctuary Cerberus discovered that adrenaline and it's alien equivalents are much better at speeding up the process than red sand that they initially used due to the data they had from Grayson. How often is Shepard under adrenaline's affects?

In reality, the hallucination theory is the only one that explains the endings. The reapers want you to try and control them as they are all about control. They want you to try and combine all life through synthesis, what do you think they are doing every time they harvest every advanced race in the galaxy? Lastly, why is it that the only way you see Shepard burred in rubble inhale sharply, seemingly after just having the wind knocked out of him is after choosing destroy? The rubble is not of the Citadel. There is no way Shepard would have survived the explosion and reentry into Earth's atmosphere.

Lastly, as evidenced by the end of arrival, the destruction of ONE mass relay is enough to destroy an entire system. Two mass relays were destroyed in the Sol system, one directly above Earth.

The only way any of it works is if it is a battle in Shepard's mind. Control and synthesis represent you succumbing to indoctrination, destruction represents Shepard winning the battle for his mind.

In closing if you don't agree, then you really should agree to disagree and leave it at that. You have to realize that most of the people in this thread have poured countless hours into the story, fallen in love with it's characters, and are willing to fight for what they believe is right. Myself included. Sounds kinda like Shepard doesn't it?

Modifié par rogueagent6, 11 mars 2012 - 04:49 .

[ynh]

 @lookingglassmind: I was super upset about the endings but I think you just healed me in one post.

It makes a lot of sense now. What you are saying is, we were knocked out by the laser and flung into rubble. During that period of unconsciousness, we were attacked by the Catalyst (or Reapers) who tried to indoctrinate us. So the fact that the endings had different color lights really didn't matter. Those choices weren't paragon or renegade. Those choices were us subconsciously (or consciously) choosing to fight the indoctrination.

Which in this case, means that the destroy ending is really the correct ending! It implies that Bioware is going to add content that picks up right after Shepard wakes up.

[MPSai]

Thing is, the only problem with it all is if they did intend it to be a dying hallucination or indoctrination, the series still has no real conclusion. A writer also defended the destruction of the Mass Relays didn't he? There better be a really good idea behind that.

It's hard to believe Bioware would just drop the ball so hard at the end. I still worry that someone just thought they were being really deep with the end. But as people have said the indoctrination theory is so plausible it's an easy out to continue the game with DLC and/or provide a more satisfying ending if they're willing.

[Ainyan42]

I still like to believe that the real ending will be unlocked (via AN) as a form of piracy control once all regions have their copies of the game, and that this is an elaborate (if mildly annoying) attempt to combat illegal sharing and downloading as well as try to tamp down on leaks and spoilers until /everyone/ has had a chance to enjoy the game.

This makes me feel a lot better about Bioware than the thought that they might come back and charge us for the endings. I mean - if this is the case, then I am absolutely STOKED by the idea that I just experienced indoctrination first hand.