57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Denvian]

greywardencommander wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

Did I seriously just read four or five pages where someone continuously maintains that it is logical for someone to survive a massive explosion, the vaccum of space, cosmic radiation, super hot re-entry (which gets to nearly 5000 degrees farenheit), then survive an impact into concrete at terminal velocity WITHOUT shield generators, full armor, and a helmet?

Nanites and cybernetic implants does not make Shepard turn into Wolverine

you did indeed now he's arguing the fact that destroying synthetic life wouldn't kill Shepard despite Shepard being part synthetic life just like the Reapers. Based on the fact we're not given an alternative but to trust the little brat (why would you if he controls the very thing you're trying to defeat), that's a pretty big thing to just have him wake up when he should be dead by the star child's own logic and hint.

With enough galatic readyness... you can survive anything!!

[Kyzee]

 I just finished my second replay of ME3, and I took note of two things that I think need to be addressed in regards to the theory. Now before anyone shouts, "TROLL!!", I want to make it absolutely clear that I support Indoctrination Theory--there's evidence for it; it's not mere wishful thinking in my view; and it sure as hell makes more sense than the endings given. However, the doesn't mean I'm going to put blinders on. I bring up these two issues for the sake of clarification--maybe someone here sees an explanation that I don't.

#1: On Thessia, the VI remarks that the Protheans believed the pattern of the cycle or some other evidence (forgive my inaccurate memory) indicated that the Reapers were answering to another being who had in fact created the cycle itself. So despite the Star Child's numerous other flaws, his existence is foreshadowed. How, then, does that fit into IT? Just simply Harbinger taking this little nugget of info and playing on it in Shepard's mind? If so, I would have to call "sloppy writing" on that.

#2: As far as TIM's presence in the final scene, it is mentioned that he fled to the Citadel when he informed the Reapers of the Galatic Alliance's plans with the Crucible. So it's not totally unexpected for him to be there. Does it explain why he's in the location he's in with Shepard and Anderson, or his sudden appearance behind Shepard, or his ignoring the control panel after shooting Shepard? Hell, no. But it may indicate that Harbinger's true attempt to indoctrinate Shepard only begins after s/he falls unconscious on the Heavenly Elevator. (In which case, again, I would call everything between the beam attack and said Heavenly Elevator to be sloppy writing.)

Does anyone see a plausible explanation for either of these two issues? (Though I admit, I'm still going with the Destroy option regardless.) 

[Denvian]

Kyzee wrote...

 I just finished my second replay of ME3, and I took note of two things that I think need to be addressed in regards to the theory. Now before anyone shouts, "TROLL!!", I want to make it absolutely clear that I support Indoctrination Theory--there's evidence for it; it's not mere wishful thinking in my view; and it sure as hell makes more sense than the endings given. However, the doesn't mean I'm going to put blinders on. I bring up these two issues for the sake of clarification--maybe someone here sees an explanation that I don't.

#1: On Thessia, the VI remarks that the Protheans believed the pattern of the cycle or some other evidence (forgive my inaccurate memory) indicated that the Reapers were answering to another being who had in fact created the cycle itself. So despite the Star Child's numerous other flaws, his existence is foreshadowed. How, then, does that fit into IT? Just simply Harbinger taking this little nugget of info and playing on it in Shepard's mind? If so, I would have to call "sloppy writing" on that.

#2: As far as TIM's presence in the final scene, it is mentioned that he fled to the Citadel when he informed the Reapers of the Galatic Alliance's plans with the Crucible. So it's not totally unexpected for him to be there. Does it explain why he's in the location he's in with Shepard and Anderson, or his sudden appearance behind Shepard, or his ignoring the control panel after shooting Shepard? Hell, no. But it may indicate that Harbinger's true attempt to indoctrinate Shepard only begins after s/he falls unconscious on the Heavenly Elevator. (In which case, again, I would call everything between the beam attack and said Heavenly Elevator to be sloppy writing.)

Does anyone see a plausible explanation for either of these two issues? (Though I admit, I'm still going with the Destroy option regardless.) 

See the indoctrination process is more passive.  The reapers and harbinger are not actually hacking shepards mind it is more subtle than that. Shepard mind constucted that part of the citadel like a person would in a dream. And then added a little boy that he saw back in Canada and has been having dreams about.

It also explains why that part of the citadel looks like the inside of the Reaper, the mars base, and the shadow brokers ship.

It is all part of a construct that shepards mind made up just like when he went into the geth computer and had only familiar items and settings to work with.

Modifié par Denvian, 23 mars 2012 - 03:34 .

[Rob Psyence]

greywardencommander wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

Did I seriously just read four or five pages where someone continuously maintains that it is logical for someone to survive a massive explosion, the vaccum of space, cosmic radiation, super hot re-entry (which gets to nearly 5000 degrees farenheit), then survive an impact into concrete at terminal velocity WITHOUT shield generators, full armor, and a helmet?

Nanites and cybernetic implants does not make Shepard turn into Wolverine

you did indeed now he's arguing the fact that destroying synthetic life wouldn't kill Shepard despite Shepard being part synthetic life just like the Reapers. Based on the fact we're not given an alternative but to trust the little brat (why would you if he controls the very thing you're trying to defeat), that's a pretty big thing to just have him wake up when he should be dead by the star child's own logic and hint.

To me the child/catalyst/reaper ai is just saying picking destroy woud destroy all synthetic life because it knows that shepard, at least paragon shepard, is attached to EDI and the Geth  to the point of friendship/admitting they are life to prey upon Shepard's sympathy. It's kind of one of the reasons I chose destroy, it rubs me wrong when it feels like someone is trying to deceive and manipulate me lol telling me Anderson is renegade doesnt help either

Anyway the last time I checked nanites constitute synthetic life because nanites are bio-synthetic machines that act much like anti-bodies except they repair tissue. But that repair in ME2 takes years, not minutes. And for all we know it may be reaper tech which would bolster the IT more than anything lol

Modifié par Rob Psyence, 23 mars 2012 - 03:30 .

[DarthSyphilis59]

Kyzee wrote...

 I just finished my second replay of ME3, and I took note of two things that I think need to be addressed in regards to the theory. Now before anyone shouts, "TROLL!!", I want to make it absolutely clear that I support Indoctrination Theory--there's evidence for it; it's not mere wishful thinking in my view; and it sure as hell makes more sense than the endings given. However, the doesn't mean I'm going to put blinders on. I bring up these two issues for the sake of clarification--maybe someone here sees an explanation that I don't.

#1: On Thessia, the VI remarks that the Protheans believed the pattern of the cycle or some other evidence (forgive my inaccurate memory) indicated that the Reapers were answering to another being who had in fact created the cycle itself. So despite the Star Child's numerous other flaws, his existence is foreshadowed. How, then, does that fit into IT? Just simply Harbinger taking this little nugget of info and playing on it in Shepard's mind? If so, I would have to call "sloppy writing" on that.

#2: As far as TIM's presence in the final scene, it is mentioned that he fled to the Citadel when he informed the Reapers of the Galatic Alliance's plans with the Crucible. So it's not totally unexpected for him to be there. Does it explain why he's in the location he's in with Shepard and Anderson, or his sudden appearance behind Shepard, or his ignoring the control panel after shooting Shepard? Hell, no. But it may indicate that Harbinger's true attempt to indoctrinate Shepard only begins after s/he falls unconscious on the Heavenly Elevator. (In which case, again, I would call everything between the beam attack and said Heavenly Elevator to be sloppy writing.)

Does anyone see a plausible explanation for either of these two issues? (Though I admit, I'm still going with the Destroy option regardless.) 

Good input. I agree that there is lots of compelling evidence. Enough evidence to give me hope that something better is coming. I love the indoctrination theory because its the only thing that makes sense. People who say they don't like it, generally don't understand the basic concept of it.

[Denvian]

sorry double post 

Modifié par Denvian, 23 mars 2012 - 03:32 .

[brad_blacksmith]

So i psyched myself up and went though the ending again today and noticed some things i didn't in my 1st run, that might sugest that the endings are  Shepard getting indocrinated or in the very least going bonkers. I dunno if anyone have already pointed these out, but it's kind of a big thread so...well bear with it :innocent:.

• In the few pages of the thread i've read some people mension the 1m1 stamped everywhere in th final area. Dunno if anybody noticed but those are stamped in what looks to be the part of Aliance cruiser or dreadnaught main gun, wich doesn't sound possible because when the Citadel was built, Earth wasnt more than dust in the wind probably;
• Also after Shepard rides the beam to the Citadel, Anderson says the place reminds him of Shepards description of the Collector homeworld, but if you think about it why should it? It's not like the Collectors lived or went around slumming in the Citadel;
• On the way to the chamber with the console, you can also see lots of those fan like things that the Shadow Broker ship had; the main chamber is also surrounded by those and if you bother to look up it possible to see a skylight like the one Liara kills the previous Broker with. That is also implausible unless the previous Broker decorated the place...where in theory no organic has ever set foot (like a nun's pants maybe?) Also about the main chamber, Anderson tells you he ended up somewhere else and followed a path till the chamber, but when you get there and look around there's only your path (this is possibly just a oversight, i dunno);

Theres some other stuff like some tubes that resemble a geth ship or the round stuff that looks like a Mako's wheels, but that probably my brain working to hard to find stuff


So that coupled with all the other stuff poited in the OP, seems to point that the "ending" sequence is more like a alucination/ Harbinger mind screwing with Shepards head, with his subconcious using events and place that are familiar to him to make sense of whats happening around him, like Legion points out when Shepard goes into the geth consensus or whatnot. At least that's what i think...or hope. Yes, let's go with hope

[lordofdogtown19]

Of all the evidence I think the most damning is Shepard's eyes. In the Control and the Synthesis ending Shepard's eyes look like TIM's while he's being disintegrated, but in Destroy they stay normal.

I really want this theory to be true but I just can't shake the thought why Bioware would do this and subject themselves to the reaction they've gotten?

[greywardencommander]

Kyzee wrote...

 I just finished my second replay of ME3, and I took note of two things that I think need to be addressed in regards to the theory. Now before anyone shouts, "TROLL!!", I want to make it absolutely clear that I support Indoctrination Theory--there's evidence for it; it's not mere wishful thinking in my view; and it sure as hell makes more sense than the endings given. However, the doesn't mean I'm going to put blinders on. I bring up these two issues for the sake of clarification--maybe someone here sees an explanation that I don't.

#1: On Thessia, the VI remarks that the Protheans believed the pattern of the cycle or some other evidence (forgive my inaccurate memory) indicated that the Reapers were answering to another being who had in fact created the cycle itself. So despite the Star Child's numerous other flaws, his existence is foreshadowed. How, then, does that fit into IT? Just simply Harbinger taking this little nugget of info and playing on it in Shepard's mind? If so, I would have to call "sloppy writing" on that.

#2: As far as TIM's presence in the final scene, it is mentioned that he fled to the Citadel when he informed the Reapers of the Galatic Alliance's plans with the Crucible. So it's not totally unexpected for him to be there. Does it explain why he's in the location he's in with Shepard and Anderson, or his sudden appearance behind Shepard, or his ignoring the control panel after shooting Shepard? Hell, no. But it may indicate that Harbinger's true attempt to indoctrinate Shepard only begins after s/he falls unconscious on the Heavenly Elevator. (In which case, again, I would call everything between the beam attack and said Heavenly Elevator to be sloppy writing.)

Does anyone see a plausible explanation for either of these two issues? (Though I admit, I'm still going with the Destroy option regardless.) 

explained already (firstly Harbinger doesn't need to plant Prothean idea in his mind because the rest of the game is happening in reality, just not the 10 minutes at the end this is the 'longest and most important dreamn following on from the others' starting from being knocked out by Harbinger's beam) He is trying to make Shepard think he won so plants the image of him getting to the beam, facing down TIM etc.

The prothean VI can only detect indoctrinated people, not those undergoing indoctrinated people as this is too subtle, this is referenced by Javik saying that it failed to recognise any of the protheans screaming for control (another clue?) until it was too late. Thus in either case it is not flawless.

The second case is that it's still going on in his mind so TIM being there makes sense to Shepard because he was told such. However TIM is at the real Crucible not the one that's only in Shepard's mind

[Rhyth]

http://i214.photobuc...ux/0688283a.jpg

Modifié par Rhyth, 23 mars 2012 - 03:55 .

[greywardencommander]

brad_blacksmith wrote...

So i psyched myself up and went though the ending again today and noticed some things i didn't in my 1st run, that might sugest that the endings are  Shepard getting indocrinated or in the very least going bonkers. I dunno if anyone have already pointed these out, but it's kind of a big thread so...well bear with it :innocent:.

• In the few pages of the thread i've read some people mension the 1m1 stamped everywhere in th final area. Dunno if anybody noticed but those are stamped in what looks to be the part of Aliance cruiser or dreadnaught main gun, wich doesn't sound possible because when the Citadel was built, Earth wasnt more than dust in the wind probably;
• Also after Shepard rides the beam to the Citadel, Anderson says the place reminds him of Shepards description of the Collector homeworld, but if you think about it why should it? It's not like the Collectors lived or went around slumming in the Citadel;
• On the way to the chamber with the console, you can also see lots of those fan like things that the Shadow Broker ship had; the main chamber is also surrounded by those and if you bother to look up it possible to see a skylight like the one Liara kills the previous Broker with. That is also implausible unless the previous Broker decorated the place...where in theory no organic has ever set foot (like a nun's pants maybe?) Also about the main chamber, Anderson tells you he ended up somewhere else and followed a path till the chamber, but when you get there and look around there's only your path (this is possibly just a oversight, i dunno);

Theres some other stuff like some tubes that resemble a geth ship or the round stuff that looks like a Mako's wheels, but that probably my brain working to hard to find stuff


So that coupled with all the other stuff poited in the OP, seems to point that the "ending" sequence is more like a alucination/ Harbinger mind screwing with Shepards head, with his subconcious using events and place that are familiar to him to make sense of whats happening around him, like Legion points out when Shepard goes into the geth consensus or whatnot. At least that's what i think...or hope. Yes, let's go with hope

[*]Walk to the beam - his mind's forming it based on the drive to the Conduit Relay in ME1 even the Mako[*]Reminds of collector's base because it's formed from his memory of the suicide run in ME and the Shadow broker's lair[*]The 1M1 stuff is again pointing to the fact that is's all in Shepard's mind and forming the idea of the area of the crucible based on his memories
[*]The Legion thing just adds more weight to it good work buddy you're one of us

Modifié par greywardencommander, 23 mars 2012 - 03:53 .

[Denvian]

Does anybody think that maybe the prothean VI lied? I mean it only tell you that the citadel is the catalyst after it has already been hacked by TIM... soooo isn't it reasonable to think that the whole earth London thing is all just a big trap?

They even asked why London?

Modifié par Denvian, 23 mars 2012 - 03:46 .

[TheGRITTY]

Great analysis, everyone. I believe that one of the best pieces of "evidence" in support of this theory is that the Control option (i.e., letting the Reapers live and having Shepard on the same side as the Reapers) is the perfect Paragon color of blue. Despite all of my Good-Guy-Shepard's intentions and efforts throughout the three games towards DESTROYING THE REAPERS, the option to let them live suddenly seemed like the "right" choice (i.e., looked blue).

I COULD have chosen the Destroy option, but it no longer seemed/felt right; that is, it appeared Renegade Red to me, and thus to Shepard.

I thought about my decision for a while. I doubted my memory of the three options. I remembered TIM grabbing onto two handles when trying to control the Reapers, but I told myself that I must be wrong because it was bluish, and thus good. It took me well over 5 minutes to finally decide, and I chose to control the Reapers during my paragon run. Bioware even used some classic social psychology on us: Shepard's obscenely slow walking MAKES us commit to our decisions wholeheartedly. This final decision is not one you can make by choosing a dialog wheel option. On the contrary, which ever path you choose, you are forced to own it by walking slowly towards your fate. You will convince yourself that you agree with the choice you made because you have to; how could you not believe in your choice when you've been walking in the same direction for well over 30 seconds. Why don't you turn around? Have you walked too far? Walked for too long.

I let the Reapers live. So much for the perfect paragon ending. I was indoctrinated.

[7egion]

Denvian wrote...

Does anybody think that maybe the prothean VI lied? I mean it only tell you that the citadel is the catalyst after it has already been hacked by TIM... soooo isn't it reasonable to think that the whole earth London thing is all just a big trap?

Especially since the VI originally offered to help them build the thingy rather than tell them what it is. (I think at least)

[Kyzee]

greywardencommander wrote...

Kyzee wrote...

 I just finished my second replay of ME3, and I took note of two things that I think need to be addressed in regards to the theory. Now before anyone shouts, "TROLL!!", I want to make it absolutely clear that I support Indoctrination Theory--there's evidence for it; it's not mere wishful thinking in my view; and it sure as hell makes more sense than the endings given. However, the doesn't mean I'm going to put blinders on. I bring up these two issues for the sake of clarification--maybe someone here sees an explanation that I don't.

#1: On Thessia, the VI remarks that the Protheans believed the pattern of the cycle or some other evidence (forgive my inaccurate memory) indicated that the Reapers were answering to another being who had in fact created the cycle itself. So despite the Star Child's numerous other flaws, his existence is foreshadowed. How, then, does that fit into IT? Just simply Harbinger taking this little nugget of info and playing on it in Shepard's mind? If so, I would have to call "sloppy writing" on that.

#2: As far as TIM's presence in the final scene, it is mentioned that he fled to the Citadel when he informed the Reapers of the Galatic Alliance's plans with the Crucible. So it's not totally unexpected for him to be there. Does it explain why he's in the location he's in with Shepard and Anderson, or his sudden appearance behind Shepard, or his ignoring the control panel after shooting Shepard? Hell, no. But it may indicate that Harbinger's true attempt to indoctrinate Shepard only begins after s/he falls unconscious on the Heavenly Elevator. (In which case, again, I would call everything between the beam attack and said Heavenly Elevator to be sloppy writing.)

Does anyone see a plausible explanation for either of these two issues? (Though I admit, I'm still going with the Destroy option regardless.) 

explained already (firstly Harbinger doesn't need to plant Prothean idea in his mind because the rest of the game is happening in reality, just not the 10 minutes at the end this is the 'longest and most important dreamn following on from the others' starting from being knocked out by Harbinger's beam) He is trying to make Shepard think he won so plants the image of him getting to the beam, facing down TIM etc.

The prothean VI can only detect indoctrinated people, not those undergoing indoctrinated people as this is too subtle, this is referenced by Javik saying that it failed to recognise any of the protheans screaming for control (another clue?) until it was too late. Thus in either case it is not flawless.

The second case is that it's still going on in his mind so TIM being there makes sense to Shepard because he was told such. However TIM is at the real Crucible not the one that's only in Shepard's mind

Okay, your answer as far as TIM and the Citadel makes sense. As far as my question about the VI on Thessia, I am not talking about the "Why didn't it know that Shepard was indoctrinated?" issue that people have brought up. (I know; s/he wasn't indoctrinated at this point.) I am speaking in terms of narrative. The Star Child's existence was hinted at in the story from the conversation with the VI. Ergo his existence doesn't come out of left field (though it doesn't fit the rest of ME's story, his "logic" leaves a lot to be desired, et cetera, et cetera.) Why would the writer's drop such a hint, and then drop it with Shepard being indoctrinated? Again, if this is just something that Harbinger's uses as part of his attempt to indoctrinate Shepard, then that means that was the sole purpose for the VI to mention the evidence of the Reapers answering to another being: to be a tool for Harbinger to indoctrinate Shepard. That is bad writing.

[7egion]

Denvian wrote...

Does anybody think that maybe the prothean VI lied? I mean it only tell you that the citadel is the catalyst after it has already been hacked by TIM... soooo isn't it reasonable to think that the whole earth London thing is all just a big trap?

They even asked why London?

For tea and krumpets. duh?

[ZerebusPrime]

Rhyth wrote...

http://i214.photobuc...x/0688283a.jpg

So the 1M1 was in Mass Effect 1?

[Denvian]

Kyzee wrote...

Okay, your answer as far as TIM and the Citadel makes sense. As far as my question about the VI on Thessia, I am not talking about the "Why didn't it know that Shepard was indoctrinated?" issue that people have brought up. (I know; s/he wasn't indoctrinated at this point.) I am speaking in terms of narrative. The Star Child's existence was hinted at in the story from the conversation with the VI. Ergo his existence doesn't come out of left field (though it doesn't fit the rest of ME's story, his "logic" leaves a lot to be desired, et cetera, et cetera.) Why would the writer's drop such a hint, and then drop it with Shepard being indoctrinated? Again, if this is just something that Harbinger's uses as part of his attempt to indoctrinate Shepard, then that means that was the sole purpose for the VI to mention the evidence of the Reapers answering to another being: to be a tool for Harbinger to indoctrinate Shepard. That is bad writing.

Becuase Shepard remembered that conversation with the VI and made up the StarChild in is head to explain who made the reapers.  Why else would it take the shape of the little boy back on earth other than some serious space magic.


really I always thought that the little boy was the best evidence for IT other than the "breathing in london" scene

Modifié par Denvian, 23 mars 2012 - 03:55 .

[lex0r11]

Hey guys, just checking up on this bunch of crazys i so much love.

Kind of intrigued by the person with his 'implants saving Shepard' thing. I think that is the first time someone explaining why he is alive other than with Indoc Theory.

But surviving that whole citadel business because you have the best bots and cybernatics? I mean there is space magic but that is kind of hard to wrap your head around.

[beank]

So this is my opinion.... (My Shepard is a guy, so i use he instead of she.... sorry if this offends...)


IT makes sense. A lot of sense. It is also something that should happen. Could Shepard achieve a grand victory without overcoming the Reapers greatest weapon? Sure he could win, but this is a grand space opera, so the idea is to overcome the greatest odds to be the hero of all time.


So even before you compare evidence, at least to me, this is an obvious (albeit devious) way to close the
game without closing it.


Did I drink the Kool-aid? Its more like i have been sniffing it to see if there is anything wrong with it
before I drink it....


That sniffing has lead me to multiple articles (and an 800+ page post) comparing what happens and has given me questions to ask....



1. Why assume that the Kid is part of the Reapers? That seems like a make or break posit for IT. Could the
Kid be an EDI-esq AI? Could the Kid be an actual life energy life form that predated the Reapers?


2. The appearance of the 3rd option, when all we have had up till that point was 2, gave me pause. Why offer the harmony option at all? Murder your friends or don't..... or make life happy till the end of time. It just seems weird that the option exists. People have equated the choice to Sarren, but why omit his image after TIM and Anderson? Wasn't Sarren favoring becoming what the Reapers wanted? The Kid made the option of creating new DNA not just altering right?


3. Isn't the difference between the Breath Ending and Not Breath ending the same as Dying or Not Dying in
ME2? The Story ends for the dead Shepard (Blue and Green) and it continues for the living Shepard (Red). Could something as simple as that be true? And if IT is true doesn't that mean that Bioware is telling us how to play the game?


4. Large one for me.... Can Indoctrination be permanently broken? Resisted yes (Sarren offing
himself and Benezia giving information), but completely fighting it off?


My attempts at counter explanations:


1. Radio: In a war zone things can be over looked. Hyperbole is also common place (“they're all gone”).
With all the destruction going on it would be possible to miss Shep and Anderson reaching the beam. Hackett (my favorite name in the game) radioing Shepard is not abnormal either. It would be like Master Control trying to radio a space shuttle that they lost contact with. “Shepard. Commander!” especially with the exclamation point sounds more desperate to believe that he is there rather than knowing that he is there.


2. The gun: I thought the ammo was left out intentionally to make the seen more cinematic. Not needed to pay attention to game mechanics give you more freedom to pay attention to the beauty of the story.


3 Anderson Dialogue: Anderson really could be in a different spot, a lot of beam tech has discrepancies in
landing areas. So talking to Shep about surrounding would not be that uncommon. The configuration of the citadel could be changing in response to being set up for its catalyst purpose. (“the place is shifting”)


4. TIM: Controlling Shepard is not that much of a stretch, with all the tech that Shepard has in him. Just
because TIM didn't want to control Shepard's mind, doesn't mean that he wouldn't need some kind of fail safe if Shepard pointed a gun at his face. “Look at the power THEY wield” is a statement that is open to interpretation. In IT it means that he is the Reapers pushing Shepard, outside of IT it is just TIM expressing his awe of the power that the Reapers (and now he himself) wields. Talking about the crucible as if he knows what it can do is would not be unusual for a man who's entire life had been based around control. His statement is just self-reinforcement rather than fact. Depending on the products of the research, his appearance might not be that strange.


5. The Wound (I personally did not notice this until I read about it): Shepard was grazed by a Reaper
blast. A blast that in my opinion should have killed him (like it did so many times on the Quarian planet). If Shepard did not have any bleeding wounds, then something would be up. As a Devil's Advocate, ill call this a coincidence.


6. Position in the Citadel: We don't know where Shepard is. He might be in the little tower, be might not be. That is all I have to say on that one till I can find an uninterrupted play through to pause and study.


The Kid and the Choices seem like the key to this whole puzzle. Way too much can be interpreted from what transpires between “Wake up” and the actual selection. Things the kid says depends on what the Kid is.


The choices are also a big point of discussion. Good and Evil are harder pressed in this game then they
were in the past. The color switch could just be a relaxing of Right (Paragon) and Wrong (Renegade) and changed to optimal (Blue) and not optimal (Red) with the addition of Untested (Green or whatever shade
it is). Could the switch of colors be based on the moral values of the Kid?


Also a pet peeve of mine, Why assume that “because the Bad Man does it” it must be bad and “because
the Good Man Does it” it must be good?


As a final question.....



If not IT, then what? Other than just saying its a bad ending, without IT what would the ending have accomplished?



What ever the case this is a game who's journey is far from over. 800+ pages and another 1000+ topics all over the internet are a testament to that. Maybe in the end the final choice for this trilogy is “What do you believe?”

Modifié par beank, 23 mars 2012 - 04:03 .

[Rhyth]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

Rhyth wrote...

http://i214.photobuc...x/0688283a.jpg

So the 1M1 was in Mass Effect 1?

Yep


Also, can someone post this picture using [img]... I have a new account, so I can't post images yet.

Modifié par Rhyth, 23 mars 2012 - 03:59 .

[Denvian]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

Rhyth wrote...

http://i214.photobuc...x/0688283a.jpg

So the 1M1 was in Mass Effect 1?

Modifié par Denvian, 23 mars 2012 - 04:35 .

[Rob Psyence]

Denvian wrote...

Kyzee wrote...

Okay, your answer as far as TIM and the Citadel makes sense. As far as my question about the VI on Thessia, I am not talking about the "Why didn't it know that Shepard was indoctrinated?" issue that people have brought up. (I know; s/he wasn't indoctrinated at this point.) I am speaking in terms of narrative. The Star Child's existence was hinted at in the story from the conversation with the VI. Ergo his existence doesn't come out of left field (though it doesn't fit the rest of ME's story, his "logic" leaves a lot to be desired, et cetera, et cetera.) Why would the writer's drop such a hint, and then drop it with Shepard being indoctrinated? Again, if this is just something that Harbinger's uses as part of his attempt to indoctrinate Shepard, then that means that was the sole purpose for the VI to mention the evidence of the Reapers answering to another being: to be a tool for Harbinger to indoctrinate Shepard. That is bad writing.

Becuase Shepard remembered that conversation with the VI and made up the StarChild in is head to explain who made the reapers.  Why else would it take the shape of the little boy back on earth other than some serious space magic.


really I always thought that the little boy was the best evidence for IT other than the "breathing in london" scene

I personally think that Harbinger intentionally gives the vi the form of the child, after all if we think that the boy is some indication of influence at the duct and shuttle then of course they'd keep up the display to "reap" the benifits

[greywardencommander]

Kyzee wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Kyzee wrote...

 I just finished my second replay of ME3, and I took note of two things that I think need to be addressed in regards to the theory. Now before anyone shouts, "TROLL!!", I want to make it absolutely clear that I support Indoctrination Theory--there's evidence for it; it's not mere wishful thinking in my view; and it sure as hell makes more sense than the endings given. However, the doesn't mean I'm going to put blinders on. I bring up these two issues for the sake of clarification--maybe someone here sees an explanation that I don't.

#1: On Thessia, the VI remarks that the Protheans believed the pattern of the cycle or some other evidence (forgive my inaccurate memory) indicated that the Reapers were answering to another being who had in fact created the cycle itself. So despite the Star Child's numerous other flaws, his existence is foreshadowed. How, then, does that fit into IT? Just simply Harbinger taking this little nugget of info and playing on it in Shepard's mind? If so, I would have to call "sloppy writing" on that.

#2: As far as TIM's presence in the final scene, it is mentioned that he fled to the Citadel when he informed the Reapers of the Galatic Alliance's plans with the Crucible. So it's not totally unexpected for him to be there. Does it explain why he's in the location he's in with Shepard and Anderson, or his sudden appearance behind Shepard, or his ignoring the control panel after shooting Shepard? Hell, no. But it may indicate that Harbinger's true attempt to indoctrinate Shepard only begins after s/he falls unconscious on the Heavenly Elevator. (In which case, again, I would call everything between the beam attack and said Heavenly Elevator to be sloppy writing.)

Does anyone see a plausible explanation for either of these two issues? (Though I admit, I'm still going with the Destroy option regardless.) 

explained already (firstly Harbinger doesn't need to plant Prothean idea in his mind because the rest of the game is happening in reality, just not the 10 minutes at the end this is the 'longest and most important dreamn following on from the others' starting from being knocked out by Harbinger's beam) He is trying to make Shepard think he won so plants the image of him getting to the beam, facing down TIM etc.

The prothean VI can only detect indoctrinated people, not those undergoing indoctrinated people as this is too subtle, this is referenced by Javik saying that it failed to recognise any of the protheans screaming for control (another clue?) until it was too late. Thus in either case it is not flawless.

The second case is that it's still going on in his mind so TIM being there makes sense to Shepard because he was told such. However TIM is at the real Crucible not the one that's only in Shepard's mind

Okay, your answer as far as TIM and the Citadel makes sense. As far as my question about the VI on Thessia, I am not talking about the "Why didn't it know that Shepard was indoctrinated?" issue that people have brought up. (I know; s/he wasn't indoctrinated at this point.) I am speaking in terms of narrative. The Star Child's existence was hinted at in the story from the conversation with the VI. Ergo his existence doesn't come out of left field (though it doesn't fit the rest of ME's story, his "logic" leaves a lot to be desired, et cetera, et cetera.) Why would the writer's drop such a hint, and then drop it with Shepard being indoctrinated? Again, if this is just something that Harbinger's uses as part of his attempt to indoctrinate Shepard, then that means that was the sole purpose for the VI to mention the evidence of the Reapers answering to another being: to be a tool for Harbinger to indoctrinate Shepard. That is bad writing.

I allow for that by saying the AI (or catalyst) regarding the Reapers and the crucible exist and do more or less what is presented but Harbinger distorts what they actually do in the dream (if you see other posts the whole final 10 minutes is formed from representations of Shepards mind e.g. collectors base, the run to the conduit, the shadow broker's lair, the Human ship stamps where the crucible is, the last bit with the starchild and the crucible is Harbinger's distortion but based on fact, he knows about it he just didn't know the cycle knew about it until TIM told him)

If you read my signature thread I elaborate on how it could work in the 'real crucible/catalyst setting' in the DLC

but to put it simply, the AI (because that's all it is) regarding the Catalyst may well exist and the crucible's functions Control Synthesis Destroy may well exist, but it is distorted by Harbinger so when we wake up and go to the Citadel to meet the Catalyst we find an AI left over from the reaper creators telling us we're the catalyst and have these options.

You're presented with destroy the Reapers only because the AI can assess that you are telling the truth regarding the geth-quarians. If you read my thread I also say about how to account for the control and synthesis people and how all these things can combine to give a variety of different outcomes based on your own final choice, your choice of colour in the current end previous decisions i.e. with the geth vs quarians.

In my opinion Shepard IS the catalyst both of the crucible but also of organic-synthetic peace. It also leaves the 'where did the reapers come from' as a mystery still, are they the original species threatened and imulgumated into synthetic machines or were they created as weapons to 'save' the organics and THEN they were the synthetics who rose and they're just distorted that thinking into 'saving organics'

Obviously this is just an idea but it's a thought re. the Harbinger plants it in your mind line.

Modifié par greywardencommander, 23 mars 2012 - 04:08 .

[Kyzee]

Denvian wrote...

Becuase Shepard remembered that conversation with the VI and made up the StarChild in is head to explain who made the reapers.  Why else would it take the shape of the little boy back on earth other than some serious space magic.


really I always thought that the little boy was the best evidence for IT other than the "breathing in london" scene

And I agree with you! I also just rewatched Acavyos' Indoctrination video, and yeah, it makes sense for Harbinger to use the VI's info as part of the illusion. It still smells a little to me, but I'll give my author's instincts a rest and wait for BioWare explanation. Thanks for the reply.