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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#2051
ynh

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Ainyan42 wrote...

I still like to believe that the real ending will be unlocked (via AN) as a form of piracy control once all regions have their copies of the game, and that this is an elaborate (if mildly annoying) attempt to combat illegal sharing and downloading as well as try to tamp down on leaks and spoilers until /everyone/ has had a chance to enjoy the game.

This makes me feel a lot better about Bioware than the thought that they might come back and charge us for the endings. I mean - if this is the case, then I am absolutely STOKED by the idea that I just experienced indoctrination first hand.


I agree with being stoked. However, I don't think it's an anti-piracy measure. I have never seen a company withold content for a released game due to piracy (if anyone has exceptions, I'm willing to be challenged). They could have easily had the game end when shepard blacks out after opening the citadel arms.

#2052
atum

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DerNix wrote...

GreenSoda wrote...

DerNix wrote...

Ok Jessica Merizan also thinks it is some sort of hallucination.

Also I have found this on the German forums. There are some mirrir-inverted signs in the Citadel

http://www.globalgam...23&d=1331451986

2nd

oi41.tinypic.com/2nvgso4.jpg

Or it is just bad texturing :D

Those two pictures are from this very thread -10, 20 pages back.


Damn. I have to sleep less I think :D



Never hurts to have it posted again, some of us are browsing the thread more slowly and missed it too.

Anyways, one of the sure signs of dreaming is messed-up unreadable letters.  This is actually one of the things you can look for to train yourself to have a lucid dream (to realize you're dreaming).   If you ever try to read a street sign or look at a clock while in a dream you will be unlikely to make sense out of the letters/numbers.

Anyways, just wanted to say this is a very interesting thread.  Probably about the only mysterious part of the story.:)

Modifié par atum, 11 mars 2012 - 05:00 .


#2053
frajerik

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It has to be a hallucination. There is too many strange things going on and too much questions. Also "awakening" scene when you choose destroy option gives no sense cos citadel was destroyed so it has to be hallucination.

#2054
lookingglassmind

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ynh wrote...

Ainyan42 wrote...

I still like to believe that the real ending will be unlocked (via AN) as a form of piracy control once all regions have their copies of the game, and that this is an elaborate (if mildly annoying) attempt to combat illegal sharing and downloading as well as try to tamp down on leaks and spoilers until /everyone/ has had a chance to enjoy the game.

This makes me feel a lot better about Bioware than the thought that they might come back and charge us for the endings. I mean - if this is the case, then I am absolutely STOKED by the idea that I just experienced indoctrination first hand.


I agree with being stoked. However, I don't think it's an anti-piracy measure. I have never seen a company withold content for a released game due to piracy (if anyone has exceptions, I'm willing to be challenged). They could have easily had the game end when shepard blacks out after opening the citadel arms.


I think, even if anti-piracy philosophy was not the original intention, it was accomplished regardless.

#2055
Falkenlore

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While on many levels I feel like I am grasping at straws. I can't help but feel that this theory makes a great deal of sense. I went back through the ending one more time (as painful as that was) and the events pointed out in this thread stood out in sharp contrast to what I had seen before.

Now the mind of course is an infinitely treacherous organ, and perception is governed by preconceived notions. So maybe I am just seeing now what I want to see.

I guess all I can do is hope we're right on this one.

#2056
lookingglassmind

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thePredator50 wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

In defense of the Hallucination/Indoctrination theory: the BioWare/Player Indoctrination Theory

With the assistance of my peers throughout the rest of this thread, I have collated a series of facts that I would like to present to the community as being evidence for a a priori intention for the endings of ME3. Some of this information will not be new to a lot of you, and it may seem downright strange to a lot of you. It does require a strong and disorienting amount of suspension of disbelief, so if you cannot engage in this type of thought process, I encourage you to skip over this post. :) It will hurt your brain. Or make you think that I'm crazy. Likely both. (I'm okay with either.)

With the assistance of countless others' highly important observations in this thread, I sumbit to you that possibility the endings of ME3 represent the highest form of the metagaming experience. The highest form of BioWare's "giving the player choice that matters, from ME1 to ME3". The highest form of player interaction that we have yet seen from a video game. This has never before been attempted by a company, and it represents the ballsiest dedication to story and lore that may exist.

I believe that the endings may be indicative of BioWare attempting to allow the player the real-time experience of what indoctrination would be like. This theory explains (in a highly weird, impossible, and completely insane way) all of the missing pieces in the hallucination sequence, and also explains BioWare's real-world actions (such as complete silence since the fan sh*tstorm broke in response to the endings).

If you have not been keeping up with the thread, or if you have not read Byne's/Kitten Tactics/Turtlicious' amalgamation of all of the evidence we have accumulated for the originial hallucination theory on page 1, then I would urge you to do so before you read any more of this post. Due to time constraints, I won't be posting all of the evidences that we have located in this post to confirm or contradict this theory: I leave it in your capable and self-aware hands to attain this information yourself. I am posting this as an add-on to page 1, as I don't think it was properly represented there in its entire grand scope.

So, to the meat of the issue:

We have already established as much evidence as we can that 'proves' that Shepard is either hallucinating/dreaming just prior to/immediately after he runs into Harbinger's beam/Conduit. The hallucination/dream sequence has been quite well fleshed out, with a lot of compelling environmental evidence to support it (again, please see page 1 for further analysis). I am going to use this particular vehicle of suspension of disbelief to propose that BioWare's intention during this sequence is to flag the player with as many markers as they can: This current reality playing before your eyes (the Citadel, the Catalyst, TIM, Anderson) is a reflection of Shepard. It is the product of his/her mind. The meeting with the Catalyst may or may not be rooted in reality; they may meet in some metalphysical dimension, or Shepard may just hallucinate the entire thing. Either way, this theory would argue that it essentially doesn't matter, because what truly matters is the role of the player in this sequence. Your role. The scene is set in a way that urges the player to become aware of things just not being right, of being a place that mirrors (literally) Shepard's experiences throughout the game. The reality presented on the Citadel is an amalgamation of archetypes of every thing Shepard has seen in the series, which this theory challenges the player to understand as being a direct prompt from BioWare to understand that what is truly happening during this scene is all within Shepard's mind. His/her reality. Under her/his control.

Understanding that the reality on the Citadel as being a cerebral concoction that is entirely of Shepard's creation is important when we arrive upon the Crucible. It becomes a vital understanding when we are faced with these three, seemingly bizarre and unexpected choices that the Catalyst gives us. This theory submits that BioWare is asking the player to actively question EVERYTHING that happens once Shepard runs into Harbinger's beam. The cost of not questioning, or making the right choice even if you do?

Real-time player indoctrination. Shepard's literal death.

Think about it carefully. We arrive on the Crucible, and are faced with an archetype of manipulation, the Catalyst. Taking the form of a child that has come to represent everything that is horrendous about the Reapers to Shepard, the Catalyst/Harbinger provides Shepard with three strange and disorienting choices. He first presents Shepard with the option of Destroy, making swift and empty assertations about how it is the wrong choice because it would kill all synthetic life and Shepard herself/himself. At its surface, this seems like the renegade/chaos option, and is even insidiously portrayed in Renegade Red, a direct nod to the Player himself/herself. Directly appealing to your experiences with how the game works. He then goes on at great length about the Control and Synthesis options, portraying Control as the blue paragon/order option. Again, directly appealing to the Player. He argues that Control is the best option, implies that Shepard is the new Catalyst, and leaves us to contemplate the possibility that we could use it to try and save the people we love; after all, we are Shepard, and we would never become like TIM. Synthesis is the last option explored, and it is portrayed as a compromise or as being the Brave New Hope for the galaxy. I have a suspicion that Synthesis may actually  be the 'perfect' choice, but that is for another theory. :) (If you're curious, read about the tech-singularity lore within the game, and research humes spork's posts about the singularity within this thread.) Either way, Synthesis smacks of strangeness because it seems so inherently Reaper-oriented. As though it were servicing the Reapers' philosophy more strongly than the other two options.

This moment, when you are standing there, agonizing over your choice? This is your indoctrination moment. This is where, it could be (fantastically and insanely) argued that this is the moment when indoctrination and all of its insidious power becomes as real as it possibly CAN be to the Player. Think about it! We stand there. We agonize. We freak out about the ridiculous choices, and we wonder (like Shepard would) why we just can't ARUGE with the Catalyst (like Shepard would). And then, as this reality seems to be the only way forward (much like how indoctrination presents a version of reality to the indoctrinated that he/she sees as being the ONLY REAL OPTION -- echoes of TIM, Kai Leng, Saren here), we begin to accept it. Tremulously, we start to make our choice.

If you choose Control, then you, the player -- the one who moves through the game though Shepard's eyes; every choice s/he has ever made in the game has been directly because of you -- have been indoctrinated. It may have been because you thought you could save your crew, your LI, or that you really could gain perfect Control over the Reapers because you are Shepard. Regardless, you have been duped. Indoctrinated by the game. Your slow exposure to the Reapers in 2007 culminates to this final choice -- complete and free player agency and determination.

If you choose Synthesis, you face a fate similar to that of Control. It's debatable to me at this point as to whether or not you have chosen to fulfill the Reapers' purpose, but indoctrination is still a heavy possibility with this one. The only reason that I state this with any certainty is because, like the ending we see with Control, Shepard is dead at the final credits.

If you choose Destroy, then the Player Indoctrination Theory submits that this is you, the player, deciding whether or not Shepard overcomes the indoctrination attempt being rained upon him/her by Harbinger/the Catalyst. If you decide this option, and if you have enough EMS to ensure that Shepard has enough real-world time to get through the indoctrination attempt/hallucination -- Shepard lives. We see him/her breathing in the rubble of London streets at the end of the game. Shepard has defied indoctrination. You, yourself, have defied indoctrination.

Does this theory make sense? Maybe not. When we consider BioWare's real-world motivations and risks (profit, losing a large fanbase over the disgusting wretchedness of the endings as they currently exist), then the theory is hard to support. But if, for just one moment, we can let ourselves believe that BioWare may just have lived up to their celebrated philiosophy of Player Choice and Player Acutalization, then this theory becomes awe-inspiring. Is it possible? Could BioWare have sacrificed the potential for safe profits in order to bring the most insane and beautiful gaming experience of all time to its fans? The most unprecedented example of player immersion of our times? Would BioWare have truly allowed the risk for profit and angering a serious amount of their fan population in pure deference to the story, and its lore?

It may explain BioWare's silence on the matter, until "more people have played the game", or until all regions have the game. It may explain Jess M.'s twitter about fans "reacting before having all of the facts". It may.... just may explain these super sh*tty endings in a way that would make BioWare the God of RPGs.

Is it likely? No. Am I reaching, insanely? Yes.

But is it possible?

Yes.



I choose to believe in Bioware. It might be my undoing, but I trust that they have something more planned.


:D I stand with you.

#2057
ynh

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This is a genius idea though. Right now, everyone is super depressed and even angry. If Bioware releases a DLC that has Shepard wake up after beating indoctrination, people would flip in excitement.

Great way to bond your fan-base even better in a sense. I know I'd be super happy.

#2058
thePredator50

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http://oi41.tinypic.com/2nvgso4.jpg

Can anyone tell me what I should be looking at in this picture?

#2059
lookingglassmind

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ynh wrote...

 @lookingglassmind: I was super upset about the endings but I think you just healed me in one post.

It makes a lot of sense now. What you are saying is, we were knocked out by the laser and flung into rubble. During that period of unconsciousness, we were attacked by the Catalyst (or Reapers) who tried to indoctrinate us. So the fact that the endings had different color lights really didn't matter. Those choices weren't paragon or renegade. Those choices were us subconsciously (or consciously) choosing to fight the indoctrination.

Which in this case, means that the destroy ending is really the correct ending! It implies that Bioware is going to add content that picks up right after Shepard wakes up.


I think it strongly implies that there WILL be DLC that explains the ending. Whether it will pick up after Shepard wakes up is up for debate -- for example, what sort of DLC would be available to those that chose Synthesis or Control? Would you HAVE to Destroy in order to access the DLC?

#2060
Deaddude56

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This is a perfect explanation of what happened! It all makes so much sense! This gives me hope.

#2061
Arturia Pendragon

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thePredator50 wrote...

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2nvgso4.jpg

Can anyone tell me what I should be looking at in this picture?

The 1M1 is mirrored; the 1s are backwards. This has been alluded to as a hint that the Paragon/Renegade ending choices are reversed, but I think it's just a texture slip-up due to rushing it out the door.

Modifié par Arturia Pendragon, 11 mars 2012 - 05:10 .


#2062
lookingglassmind

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thePredator50 wrote...

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2nvgso4.jpg

Can anyone tell me what I should be looking at in this picture?


IMO? BioWare waving its hands madly and saying: See? This is a mirror of reality.

#2063
Lugaidster

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thePredator50 wrote...

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2nvgso4.jpg

Can anyone tell me what I should be looking at in this picture?


The mirrored letters in the pillar on the back.

#2064
Militarized

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lookingglassmind wrote...

ynh wrote...

 @lookingglassmind: I was super upset about the endings but I think you just healed me in one post.

It makes a lot of sense now. What you are saying is, we were knocked out by the laser and flung into rubble. During that period of unconsciousness, we were attacked by the Catalyst (or Reapers) who tried to indoctrinate us. So the fact that the endings had different color lights really didn't matter. Those choices weren't paragon or renegade. Those choices were us subconsciously (or consciously) choosing to fight the indoctrination.

Which in this case, means that the destroy ending is really the correct ending! It implies that Bioware is going to add content that picks up right after Shepard wakes up.


I think it strongly implies that there WILL be DLC that explains the ending. Whether it will pick up after Shepard wakes up is up for debate -- for example, what sort of DLC would be available to those that chose Synthesis or Control? Would you HAVE to Destroy in order to access the DLC?


Please be true... please be true... please be true... *mutterings* 

#2065
Flapperrr

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revo76 wrote...

we got our answer:

https://twitter.com/...692740471721985


What the person on this post also didn't know? Ha-ha-ha! Surrenders to me, now will is thin to hint that we and so have understood) :o

#2066
netarchy

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Arturia Pendragon wrote...

thePredator50 wrote...

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2nvgso4.jpg

Can anyone tell me what I should be looking at in this picture?

The 1M1 is mirrored; the 1s are backwards. This has been alluded to as a hint that the Paragon/Renegade ending choices are reversed, but I think it's just a texture slip-up due to rushing it out the door.


Except that the mirrored text is in more than one location. 

#2067
lookingglassmind

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Militarized wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

ynh wrote...

 @lookingglassmind: I was super upset about the endings but I think you just healed me in one post.

It makes a lot of sense now. What you are saying is, we were knocked out by the laser and flung into rubble. During that period of unconsciousness, we were attacked by the Catalyst (or Reapers) who tried to indoctrinate us. So the fact that the endings had different color lights really didn't matter. Those choices weren't paragon or renegade. Those choices were us subconsciously (or consciously) choosing to fight the indoctrination.

Which in this case, means that the destroy ending is really the correct ending! It implies that Bioware is going to add content that picks up right after Shepard wakes up.


I think it strongly implies that there WILL be DLC that explains the ending. Whether it will pick up after Shepard wakes up is up for debate -- for example, what sort of DLC would be available to those that chose Synthesis or Control? Would you HAVE to Destroy in order to access the DLC?


Please be true... please be true... please be true... *mutterings* 


Aww. :D I hear you. And raise you a million times. I may be the worst hope-r on this thread. :crying:

#2068
SomeBug

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ynh wrote...

This is a genius idea though. Right now, everyone is super depressed and even angry. If Bioware releases a DLC that has Shepard wake up after beating indoctrination, people would flip in excitement.

Great way to bond your fan-base even better in a sense. I know I'd be super happy.


Nope.

Firstly, you'd completely lose the fans that have no ability to download new content. This is a not-insignificant proportion of the players.

Secondly, you'd ****** everyone off just for a marketing stunt. There is no reason to withhold endings in this way. There is no precedent because everyone else has rightlfully concluded it is a dumb idea.

Thirdly, with all the negative press about the From Ashes DLC and how a lot of its assets are on-disc, can you imagine the fury, the firestorm that would engulf this company if they literally sold us an ending.

Even if the ending DLC was free, they've parcelled out an experience to promote their DLC delivery system. It's racketeering. It's insidious and no-one would allow it.

It would have been shot down six months ago as a stupid idea by smart people with experience.

#2069
caramel_cod

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Regardless of whether this is truly the explanation Bioware originally intended or not, you've just given them a perfect way out of this mess. If they make the endings indoctrinated hallucinations, they go from revolting to brilliant.

If Bioware wasn't already planning on using this to rationalize the conclusion, here's hoping they are now.

#2070
Elenterx

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I'm still confused about the pattern in which who survives with joker on the Normandy.
I've seen some people say the the two people you take with you don't survive yet I took Ashley and Liara.

At the end I saw Ashley and Javik come of the ship with Joker.

Those are the two people I talked to the most throughout the game, or is it just random? A bug? Because Ashley was running to the beam with me and I'm almost 100% sure I saw her get hit right beside me.

#2071
Kosiji

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I really hope this was an hallucination. PLEASE BIOWARE! PLEASE FIX THIS!

#2072
lookingglassmind

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SomeBug wrote...

It would have been shot down six months ago as a stupid idea by smart people with experience.


Excellent points, all, and thank you for contributing to this thread. Although I am anticipating a somewhat lacklustre response to your post due to your closing statement, I still tend to agree with most of what you've pointed out.

Fiscally, the idea is a nightmare.

#2073
ceruleancrescent

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Ellestor wrote...

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Yes there was definitely something hidden in the image from the Rho artifact, the video has one theme to it, Harbinger (there are two distinct bits though, one with Harbinger shooting up the Presidium and landing in front of the crew and associates on illium for whatever reason) and Shepard's memories of his crew, friends and the first Normandy on that icy planet.

I am positive it was indoctrination, especially since he fell to the floor in agony.

If you have arrival installed/ME2, then the file is in biogame/DLC/dlc_exp_part2/movies, youll need the bik player though.

Its called Arv_Flash_marker.

I believe this is what you're referring to.

From the video, doesn't that look like Illium in the background?
Posted Image

#2074
Deltateam Elcor

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Just realised that the music for leaving earth is sort of the same as the one when you are meeting the child on the citadel.

Hmm.

#2075
atum

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Sorry if this was already posted but:

One thing that struck me as odd was that Shep was satisfied with the answer that the ghost child gave to the "who are you" question.

(paraphrasing, GC= Ghost Child)

Shep: Who are you?

GC: I am the Catalyst

Shep: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst?

GC: No, the Citadel is part of me.

(.... conversation goes on without further explanation by the GC or questions by Shep.....)


Basically I wondered why more wasnt asked about who the GC was, where he came from. Was he synthetic? Why did he choose the form of the child from Shep's mind? I find it hard to believe Shep was just "OK" with that non-explanation. The Citadel is part of me....oooookay?