57139 réponses à ce sujet

[greywardencommander]

Denvian wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Only one comment on my 1m1 and 8m8 stuff, I thought more might say why they liked it or pick it apart, doing neither seems odd based on the trend that normally happens lol

It was quite a heady post really.  It certainly was interesting and I wonder if they intended that.  

Hard to use it as evidence though because it is so complicated and deep

My point was that even just looking up 1m1 and 8m8 can give you the divergence and convergence meanings which can be interpreted as. even taking out the divergence bit the inverted mirror vs 1m1 on destroy side points to a convergence that's the intentended and only conclusion

wouldn't be the first time that a game has used codes for the gamers to crack (Assassins Creed) both in game and otherwise

Modifié par greywardencommander, 23 mars 2012 - 09:15 .

[Rob Psyence]

FellishBeast wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

policenauts wrote...

just found something: in the scene when javik is first on the normandy he touches shepard to sense him.

javik then says: "i can sense fear in you. anxiety and distress. the reapers are winning."

that /could/ be a hint that the reapers are winning the indoctrination. so /maybe/ javik sensed it in shepard.

That's what I'd take it to mean

I'd love it to mean that, but why would he be so ambiguous about it?

Well to look at it in the context of the situation, Javik recently just learned English by touching him the first time, otherwise the translators wouldn't likely understand Prothean language. So the ambiguity could just be the fact he is expecting shepard to understand, not knowing he needs to be more specific lol

Don't get me wrong, I think the IDT is awesome, but this seems like a stretch to me, I don't think Javik would willingly continue to help an indoctrinated.

Just playing devil's advocate, but it certainly could be interpreted as Javik just being unable to differentiate indoctorination from just normal stressors in the clouded atmosphere of shepard's mind

Modifié par Rob Psyence, 23 mars 2012 - 09:15 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Intensity Penguin wrote...

I have heard people attempting to debunk the Shepard's Indoctrination Theory by saying that even if Shepard wakes up in London, Harbinger will be able to destroy him with ease. However, you may recall that Saren dying in the end of the original Mass Effect weakened Sovereign, opening him up for defeat, as Saren was his 'Avatar' because Sovereign was so deeply invested in Saren, forcing him to gain access to the Citadel. Also, Harbinger was utilizing the Collector General to carry out the harvest of the human race, and abandoned him at the moment before it died, potentially to prevent harm to himself. If these capital Reapers can invest themselves in humans so deeply, is it possible that perhaps death, as well as the overcoming of indoctrination could also harm them? So, if Shepard is in fact to Harbinger what Saren was to Sovereign, upon picking the 'Destroy' option, Shepard effectively overcomes Harbinger's indoctrination and leaves Harbinger in a weakened state. Then, in possible future DLC, we could continue the fight against a weakened Harbinger to take back Earth.

Possible, but remember that ships were sent after Harbinger and the other Reapers heading for Earth in order to stall them. I can easily imagine the Normandy beeing one of those ships and as Harbinger is looming over the awakened Sheaprd and his Squadmates ready for th final blow, the Normandy swoops in hitting harbinger with everything it got, distracting him just long enough for Shepard and co to escape through the beam.

Even better would be if Harbinger then takes of towards the Citadel and we have short scenes of the Normandy attacking him during his flight, dodging retaliation shoots from him. Would also bring in the upgrade we bought for Engineering as the Normandy might run pretty hot in that sequence resulting in the death of the Engineers if you did not but the upgrade, similar to ME2 and the upgrades we bought there.

Could also lead into EDI sacrifcing herself for the ship (and Joker) as she reveals she would do if necesary during your conversations (at least if you encourage hers and Jokers relationship) if your War Assets are to low. Like she disconnects from the vital systems of the ship and then initiates Cyberwarfare against Harbinger, stalling him just the moment it takes to save the shop but beeing utterly crushed as well.

Just thinking out loud really as I would like to see some more involvement of the Normandy in those final moments of the game.

But on my second playthrough and I have noticed that alot of people mention Beaches in regards to what they want to do or retire to after the war is over. Possible reason Shepard sees the Normandy crash land on an idylic jungle planet with beaches, very similar to Virmire?

[Intensity Penguin]

Erethrian wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

What Intensity Penguin said!

I see what you did there


I thought you were supporting my point, haha. But not kidding, it's said in the game that the reapers on earth don't seem to have the problem sovereign had.

Perhaps this is more of Harbinger's attempts to break Shepard internally, subconsciously telling him that even if he knew that he was indoctrinated and tried to fight it, nothing beneficial would come of it. Haha, good observation  

[Tiny5th]

Several comments about sheps implants have got me thinking. I doubt it could be reaper tech as that disproved our theory that the vi doesn't detect the indoctrination in shep like it does is Kai or TIM. As I assume it is linked to implants as vigil on ilos mentions detecting Saren's implants.

If they were actually an attempt by TIM to make you resistant to indoctrination however, as someone mentioned earlier, and renegade options are sort if giving into this urge (saw this mentioned earlier too, though I admit some renegade options do seem like they play into reapers hands, like letting the council die.)

Could it be that your prolonged renegade actions causing your implants to 'reject' and burn through your skin is the very tech itself trying to warn you?

When I saw what a full renegade shep looked like it unsettled me.. it draws too many parallels with how the corruption of the dark side looked in KotOR

[Erethrian]

Tiny5th wrote...

Several comments about sheps implants have got me thinking. I doubt it could be reaper tech as that disproved our theory that the vi doesn't detect the indoctrination in shep like it does is Kai or TIM. As I assume it is linked to implants as vigil on ilos mentions detecting Saren's implants.

If they were actually an attempt by TIM to make you resistant to indoctrination however, as someone mentioned earlier, and renegade options are sort if giving into this urge (saw this mentioned earlier too, though I admit some renegade options do seem like they play into reapers hands, like letting the council die.)

Could it be that your prolonged renegade actions causing your implants to 'reject' and burn through your skin is the very tech itself trying to warn you?

When I saw what a full renegade shep looked like it unsettled me.. it draws too many parallels with how the corruption of the dark side looked in KotOR

comment such as these ones? -v

Hmmm, thinking about aguements of some people against indoctrination:

Anti-It side: A lot of people is saying that Indoctrination can't be resisted.

Pro-IT side: A lot of people is saying Cerberus could've implanted reaper tech in Shepard's body during the Lazarus project.

Another point of view supporting indoctrination Theory.

I think the Illusive man (Jack from now on) really fights for humanity, due to what happened during the war against the turians and the fact he saw what reaper tech could make to others.

Why not a control chip inside Shepards head?

Why the reaper tech inside Shepard hasn't indoctrinated Shepard yet as it did with Grayson (Book, ME: Retribution)...

Maybe... Because Jack knew he(TIM himself) already was being indoctrinated, slowly, due to what happened during Xanxi. So, what he used to rebuild Shepard (and knowing jack knew there was a reaper signal), maybe was some kind of technology made by Cerberus and meant to prevent Shepard from becoming completely indoctrinated, or at least giving him a chance to not become indoctrinated.

What if the implants Shepard has, interferes somehow with the reaper signal? What if Jack was trying to save Shepard so he could save himself? So if IT is true, once Shepard beats the indoctrination (choosing Destroy) he's completely free from it.


Well, this is really grasping at emegency induction portsbut, haha, I think there're no reasons to not implant a control chip inside Shepard's mind if Jack already was completely indoctrinated.

I wrote that yesterday I think, there was little activity, but now there's a lot, maybe you want to read it. ^^

Modifié par Erethrian, 23 mars 2012 - 09:22 .

[OhLaLa808]

idk if that was posted before but BW is considering making an option that could change the ending.

[FellishBeast]

RedrDog 2 wrote...

The Indoctrination Theory is a great idea, reading all of this really makes me feel better about the ending, here's hoping for a Mass Effect 4 so we can (As Bungie once said) "finish the fight" with the reapers.

No way will they get away with that. They need to fix this ending if they want anyone to play another ME game again.

[greywardencommander]

FellishBeast wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

policenauts wrote...

just found something: in the scene when javik is first on the normandy he touches shepard to sense him.

javik then says: "i can sense fear in you. anxiety and distress. the reapers are winning."

that /could/ be a hint that the reapers are winning the indoctrination. so /maybe/ javik sensed it in shepard.

That's what I'd take it to mean

I'd love it to mean that, but why would he be so ambiguous about it?

Well to look at it in the context of the situation, Javik recently just learned English by touching him the first time, otherwise the translators wouldn't likely understand Prothean language. So the ambiguity could just be the fact he is expecting shepard to understand, not knowing he needs to be more specific lol

Don't get me wrong, I think the IDT is awesome, but this seems like a stretch to me, I don't think Javik would willingly continue to help an indoctrinated.

which is why i'm saying it's not Javik knowing you're indoctrinated, it's more a hint to us. He could well mean the war, I just think that if that's the case...that's pretty obvious anyway

[Militarized]

Is this still not dead?

[Erethrian]

Tiny5th wrote...

Several comments about sheps implants have got me thinking. I doubt it could be reaper tech as that disproved our theory that the vi doesn't detect the indoctrination in shep like it does is Kai or TIM. As I assume it is linked to implants as vigil on ilos mentions detecting Saren's implants.

If they were actually an attempt by TIM to make you resistant to indoctrination however, as someone mentioned earlier, and renegade options are sort if giving into this urge (saw this mentioned earlier too, though I admit some renegade options do seem like they play into reapers hands, like letting the council die.)

Could it be that your prolonged renegade actions causing your implants to 'reject' and burn through your skin is the very tech itself trying to warn you?

When I saw what a full renegade shep looked like it unsettled me.. it draws too many parallels with how the corruption of the dark side looked in KotOR

It could be seen that way and it's also a possibility

[Tiny5th]

@Erethrian:

Yeah but as I said I don't think reapers tech in Lazarus is possible or the prothean vi would detect it.

[FellishBeast]

Tiny5th wrote...

When I saw what a full renegade shep looked like it unsettled me.. it draws too many parallels with how the corruption of the dark side looked in KotOR

Someone pointed out that full-blown Renegade Shep looks somewhat similar to TIM in the final scene.

[Erethrian]

Tiny5th wrote...

@Erethrian:

Yeah but as I said I don't think reapers tech in Lazarus is possible or the prothean vi would detect it.

I agree, that's why I thought the implants may be not "reaper tech", but a tech made by Cerberus to prevent (offering resistance, interfering with the reaper signal maybe) indoctrination of Shepard.

So, why the black boxes?

Why not a control chip?

Because TIM wanted him to not be indoctrinated and he wanted his agents/scientists to not know what they were exactly doing (what they where using or implanting inside Shepard's body -Miranda says that in ME3 ). There clearly was an indoctrinated agent inside the base, the one who tried to kill Shep., but he was killed by Miranda at the beginning of ME2.

Modifié par Erethrian, 23 mars 2012 - 09:36 .

[greywardencommander]

SwobyJ wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Martukis wrote...

I am unsure if it is related, but if you ask Hackett "Why me?" He explains that Shepard seems to be an almost hypnotic leader, uniting people and within weeks inspiring and convincing them to follow him/her into hell (or a Collector base near the accretion disk). TIM also exhibits this a bit at the Citidel (or perhaps in the dream) and I think with Kai Leng to some extent. It is discussed that reapers have a sort of signal-based command system, and that TIM was looking into manipulating this to turn reaper ground forces against each other. I wonder if the slower, more preserving indoctrination discussed in the codec - the one that enables much more cognitive ability - might also enable a certain amount of command ability.

an interesting idea actually and something I hadn't thought of.
I get really tired of this 'that's not how indoctrination works' rubbish citing all these things and it's like well in the codex itself and in game references it's implied that slower indoctrination, subtler indoctrination (or subliminal) is also used by them, we don't know what happens inside their head all we've seen is
They start to become influenced -> their beliefs change to align with the Reapers or at least not destroying them (Saren) -> full out control (husks)

I posted a while back that there's various stages of indoctrination all based on the games, books and codex,
the beginnings (some visions, whispers, increased depression etc) -> illusion stage (where we've reached) -> Conversion Stage -> Thrall (Husks) - useless

We argue he's between illusion & conversion (where his beliefs change), choosing destroy throws off the indoctrination completely proving he can't be controlled and choosing the other two leads to indoctrination, there's still a chance to do a Saren and resist enough to do the right thing in the latter two but ultimately your Shepard is doomed to die

I posted on Forbes. Did you read my long comments? It seems you did, by posting my 'stages'  

  

Yeah I did. Thank you for putting it into such an easy way what we've been trying to explain to those claiming it can't happen in stages. They seem to just be happy with 'you're indoctrinated, then you become indoctrinated' (if you see what I mean)

I even posted your full one and added my own notes and then commented about it after this post was just a summary

Modifié par greywardencommander, 23 mars 2012 - 09:41 .

[Tiny5th]

Eheheh indeed.

[nyrocron]

Militarized wrote...

Is this still not dead?

One question: Do you even know what indoctrination theory is about?

[Erethrian]

nyrocron wrote...

Militarized wrote...

Is this still not dead?

One question: Do you even know what indoctrination theory is about?

They think is about cultists trying to explain something with conspiracy theories...

Haha.

Modifié par Erethrian, 23 mars 2012 - 09:40 .

[Xenite]

sgreco1970 wrote...

FugitiveMind wrote...

I certainly hope it was a hallucination...

Otherwise I just basically played "3 Card Monte" with a dream kid who glows in the dark and lost 200 hours of my life...

it was. You only fought the reapers in your mind, fighting to control yourself, to survive their final attack against you personally. If you chose to destroy the reapers, yo broke their control and woke up in the rubble of london.

the final battle is yet to come.

Yup, that is why he stands up straight and appears normal again as he destroys it. It's showing Shep breaking free from the indoctrination.

[nyrocron]

Erethrian wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

Militarized wrote...

Is this still not dead?

One question: Do you even know what indoctrination theory is about?

They think is about cultists trying to explain something with conspiracy theories...

Haha.

Yeah I got that impression too.

[greywardencommander]

Erethrian wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

Militarized wrote...

Is this still not dead?

One question: Do you even know what indoctrination theory is about?

They think is about cultists trying to explain something with conspiracy theories...

Haha.

most of the haters seem to think we like the current endings and this is our interpretation.

The only way we like the endings is if the fixed endings (e.g. through dlc) is based on this idea, that destroy = resisting and the other two = succumbing to it then carry on the final battle after being knocked out by Harbinger's beam

Modifié par greywardencommander, 23 mars 2012 - 09:43 .

[Erethrian]

greywardencommander wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

Militarized wrote...

Is this still not dead?

One question: Do you even know what indoctrination theory is about?

They think is about cultists trying to explain something with conspiracy theories...

Haha.

most of the haters seem to think we like the current endings and this is our interpretation.

The only way we like the endings is if the fixed endings (e.g. through dlc) is based on this idea, that destroy = resisting and the other two = succumbing to it then carry on the final battle after being knocked out by Harbinger's beam

Yeah, and that doesn't mean the only way to continue playing is choosing Destroy. It just means that is the most viable way to win against indoctrination.

The thing is, we'll like the current endings if IT is true, but if not... Then BW will have a bigger problem.

EDIT: Also, if they say it's not true but they tell me why, what, how, maybe I'll understand why they did these endings, but well.

Modifié par Erethrian, 23 mars 2012 - 09:45 .

[Denvian]

Erethrian wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

Militarized wrote...

Is this still not dead?

One question: Do you even know what indoctrination theory is about?

They think is about cultists trying to explain something with conspiracy theories...

Haha.

most of the haters seem to think we like the current endings and this is our interpretation.

The only way we like the endings is if the fixed endings (e.g. through dlc) is based on this idea, that destroy = resisting and the other two = succumbing to it then carry on the final battle after being knocked out by Harbinger's beam

Yeah, and that doesn't mean the only way to continue playing is choosing Destroy. It just means that is the most viable way to win against indoctrination.

The thing is, we'll like the current endings if IT is true, but if not... Then BW will have a bigger problem.

EDIT: Also, if they say it's not true but they tell me why, what, how, maybe I'll understand why they did these endings, but well.

That is about the long and short of it.

[greywardencommander]

Erethrian wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

Militarized wrote...

Is this still not dead?

One question: Do you even know what indoctrination theory is about?

They think is about cultists trying to explain something with conspiracy theories...

Haha.

most of the haters seem to think we like the current endings and this is our interpretation.

The only way we like the endings is if the fixed endings (e.g. through dlc) is based on this idea, that destroy = resisting and the other two = succumbing to it then carry on the final battle after being knocked out by Harbinger's beam

Yeah, and that doesn't mean the only way to continue playing is choosing Destroy. It just means that is the most viable way to win against indoctrination.

The thing is, we'll like the current endings if IT is true, but if not... Then BW will have a bigger problem.

EDIT: Also, if they say it's not true but they tell me why, what, how, maybe I'll understand why they did these endings, but well.

I know they also assume that we think Bioware intended it which is irrelevant at this point plenty think they didn't.

It just stands to reason IDT is now the easiest way to make the endings work without changing anything in the current endings (which would take longer and make the end look pretty weird if it was edited). It's the biggest get out of jail free card they could have hoped for

either by retconning destroy and having some other way snap you out of it in the other two (crew maybe) OR by making your final decision as it stands matter! If they 'punished' you for not picking destroy which is the logical choice (to throw indoctrination) by making you indoctrinated I think that would be awesome and allow even more variability in endings
see my thread for details 
http://social.biowar...ndex/10350970/2 

Also if they came out and explained the endings in full, plot holes and all I'll accept it. I won't like the endings but I'd accept them

Modifié par greywardencommander, 23 mars 2012 - 10:03 .