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[Erethrian]

greywardencommander wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

SanoBub wrote...

First post here!

I don't know if it has been mentioned yet but I seem to remember that Object Rho/Harbinger said something like "Your mind will be mine!" (Or something like that....I played the german version) to Shepard during the Arrival DLC.
That's another evidence in my opinion.
I'm not entirely sure though, it's been a while since I played the Arrival DLC.

It's true, but Arrival is not canon. All new games of ME3 and the imported games where you don't have Arrival, it's supposed that you (Shep) weren't there. So, I think Arrival is discarded for the theory for now. But it's clearly a good addition. In arrival the reapers didn't kill Shepard, they tried to do something to him, maybe they tried to indoctrinate him.

how do you explain the fact that arrival leads to you grounded on earth then...that's the whole point of the DLC and the fact it's mentioned at all means it 'is' canon

It's supposed that's for working with cerberus.

But again, it's not me who says that Arrival is not canon, it's the official guides of Mass Effect 3.

Anyway, does it matter? Shepard's been around Reaper tech and inside a reaper, it's easy to become indoctrinated. Even if Arrival never happened.

Modifié par Erethrian, 23 mars 2012 - 12:01 .

[halbert986]

The biggest hole that is only filled by this theory or one like it is shepard being alive. There is just no other explanation. The normandy, the relays, the star childs ultimatum, it's all up for debate. But there's no way around the biggest problem of all, shepard being alive on earth.

Having a fun little near-death experience after being blasted into oblivion would almost be expected. Even if none of the choices killed shepard immediately, him being alive in the end completely nullifies everything that just happened on the citadel. Unless bioware are interested in pulling a halo 3/reach and claiming that commander shepard survived a massive explosion and a re-entry to fall safely to earth right back to London, even though his armor was blasted off and he was almost dead.

[greywardencommander]

Erethrian wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Arrival is canon, whether you play it or not.

Wrong, look at the guide.

The events in arrival happened, but it wasn't Shepard who did them if you didn't play the DLC.

It happens the same with the Lair of the Shadow Broker.

In ME3, without a save import, Liara says how she, alone, took the place of the previous broker and rescued Feron.

still canon that it happened regardless of Shepard in terms of the explosion at the very least. Thus showing that because we know no different all relays being destroyed would lead to similar, if not worse (see earlier post that I think is quoted on this page) about the physics of why it would be worse the way we see it in the endings than in Arrival.

[XXIceColdXX]

Shepard was locked up because of what he did in Arrival. I'm sure it's canon.

[nyrocron]

Just to emphasize something I said before even more: Even if your teammates are alive and get picked up by the Normandy, there is no way they could just walk out completely UNHARMED!

Modifié par nyrocron, 23 mars 2012 - 12:05 .

[SanoBub]

Erethrian wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

SanoBub wrote...

First post here!

I don't know if it has been mentioned yet but I seem to remember that Object Rho/Harbinger said something like "Your mind will be mine!" (Or something like that....I played the german version) to Shepard during the Arrival DLC.
That's another evidence in my opinion.
I'm not entirely sure though, it's been a while since I played the Arrival DLC.

It's true, but Arrival is not canon. All new games of ME3 and the imported games where you don't have Arrival, it's supposed that you (Shep) weren't there. So, I think Arrival is discarded for the theory for now. But it's clearly a good addition. In arrival the reapers didn't kill Shepard, they tried to do something to him, maybe they tried to indoctrinate him.

how do you explain the fact that arrival leads to you grounded on earth then...that's the whole point of the DLC and the fact it's mentioned at all means it 'is' canon

It's supposed that's for working with cerberus.

But again, it's not me who says that Arrival is not canon, it's the official guides of Mass Effect 3.

Anyway, does it matter? Shepard's been around Reaper tech and inside a reaper, it's easy to become indoctrinated. Even if Arrival never happened.

And even if it isn't 'canon' it wouldn't matter since Harbinger would have said it if Shepard would have been there if that makes any sense 

[nyrocron]

SanoBub wrote...

And even if it isn't 'canon' it wouldn't matter since Harbinger would have said it if Shepard would have been there if that makes any sense 

Yes, at least it proves that Harbinger is definitely interested in Shepard's indoctrination.

[Erethrian]

greywardencommander wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Arrival is canon, whether you play it or not.

Wrong, look at the guide.

The events in arrival happened, but it wasn't Shepard who did them if you didn't play the DLC.

It happens the same with the Lair of the Shadow Broker.

In ME3, without a save import, Liara says how she, alone, took the place of the previous broker and rescued Feron.

still canon that it happened regardless of Shepard in terms of the explosion at the very least. Thus showing that because we know no different all relays being destroyed would lead to similar, if not worse (see earlier post that I think is quoted on this page) about the physics of why it would be worse the way we see it in the endings than in Arrival.

Oh, yeah, I misundertood that. Yes, the explosion, the dead batarians, all of that is clearly canon.

[SanoBub]

nyrocron wrote...

SanoBub wrote...

And even if it isn't 'canon' it wouldn't matter since Harbinger would have said it if Shepard would have been there if that makes any sense 

Yes, at least it proves that Harbinger is definitely interested in Shepard's indoctrination.

Exactly!

[greywardencommander]

Erethrian wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

SanoBub wrote...

First post here!

I don't know if it has been mentioned yet but I seem to remember that Object Rho/Harbinger said something like "Your mind will be mine!" (Or something like that....I played the german version) to Shepard during the Arrival DLC.
That's another evidence in my opinion.
I'm not entirely sure though, it's been a while since I played the Arrival DLC.

It's true, but Arrival is not canon. All new games of ME3 and the imported games where you don't have Arrival, it's supposed that you (Shep) weren't there. So, I think Arrival is discarded for the theory for now. But it's clearly a good addition. In arrival the reapers didn't kill Shepard, they tried to do something to him, maybe they tried to indoctrinate him.

how do you explain the fact that arrival leads to you grounded on earth then...that's the whole point of the DLC and the fact it's mentioned at all means it 'is' canon

It's supposed that's for working with cerberus.

But again, it's not me who says that Arrival is not canon, it's the official guides of Mass Effect 3.

Anyway, does it matter? Shepard's been around Reaper tech and inside a reaper, it's easy to become indoctrinated. Even if Arrival never happened.

I regard 'not being canon' as something that didn't happen in the universe and isn't official (e.g. second party games or books or whatever)

The fact it's referenced in the official at all means it IS canon because they needed you on Earth and the relay to have blown up = canon.
Equally they needed Liara to be the Shadow Broker thus made it canon because it's explicity referred to in the official game.

[greywardencommander]

Erethrian wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Arrival is canon, whether you play it or not.

Wrong, look at the guide.

The events in arrival happened, but it wasn't Shepard who did them if you didn't play the DLC.

It happens the same with the Lair of the Shadow Broker.

In ME3, without a save import, Liara says how she, alone, took the place of the previous broker and rescued Feron.

still canon that it happened regardless of Shepard in terms of the explosion at the very least. Thus showing that because we know no different all relays being destroyed would lead to similar, if not worse (see earlier post that I think is quoted on this page) about the physics of why it would be worse the way we see it in the endings than in Arrival.

Oh, yeah, I misundertood that. Yes, the explosion, the dead batarians, all of that is clearly canon.

ah I see you just meant Shepard's being in Arrival thus the conversation with Harbinger, fair enough I apologise. Yes it happened thus is canon in terms of the OUTCOME of Arrival

[Denvian]

Erethrian wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Arrival is canon, whether you play it or not.

Wrong, look at the guide.

The events in arrival happened, but it wasn't Shepard who did them if you didn't play the DLC.

It happens the same with the Lair of the Shadow Broker.

In ME3, without a save import, Liara says how she, alone, took the place of the previous broker and rescued Feron.

What!?  no way she could have dont all that without me!  Its a good thing I did play the DLC lol

[greywardencommander]

Why do people keep telling me it's impossible to beat indoctrination? Surely if the developers intended it in the first place (as in the app, whether scrapped or not it was possible for him to beat it). Also lesser minds would have been destroyed by the Prothean beacon thus the precedent for him to have the power to do so is set...that alone is enough to convince me he can.
throw in a mind-meld with Shiala who thanks to the Thorian was able to recover from indoctrination and the fact he's just one tough S.O.B and I see no reason why not

[nyrocron]

Plus he is not even fully indoctrinated (yet) according to the theory.

Modifié par nyrocron, 23 mars 2012 - 12:29 .

[greywardencommander]

nyrocron wrote...

Plus he is not even fully indoctrinated according to the theory.

I know and they attack that as well with the 'you're indoctrinated so it's absolute' idea the fact that there can't be 'stages' of indoctrination it's absolute because it doesn't work like that despite all evidence re. games, books etc suggesting there are stages thus making it perfectly plausible that you can beat it in an 'early stage' i.e. in this Ilusion stage before it becomes Conversion stage.

I.e Indoctrinated = absolute, process of being indoctrinated i.e. before becoming fully controlled = can be broken

Modifié par greywardencommander, 23 mars 2012 - 12:35 .

[RoyalGambit]

greywardencommander wrote...

Why do people keep telling me it's impossible to beat indoctrination? Surely if the developers intended it in the first place (as in the app, whether scrapped or not it was possible for him to beat it). Also lesser minds would have been destroyed by the Prothean beacon thus the precedent for him to have the power to do so is set...that alone is enough to convince me he can.
throw in a mind-meld with Shiala who thanks to the Thorian was able to recover from indoctrination and the fact he's just one tough S.O.B and I see no reason why not

Yeah, and all the characters that have managed to regain control, including Saren, Benezia and Grayson. Maybe they were only themselves for a brief moment, but it still shows that indoctrination isn't unbeatable.

Modifié par RoyalGambit, 23 mars 2012 - 12:31 .

[SanoBub]

greywardencommander wrote...

I'm following Chris Velasco (Mass Effect 3 Composer) and Rob Blade (Audio Lead of Series) on Twitter and just noticed he tweeted about this 'easter egg' in Mass Effect 3 and congratulations to Kotaku for finding it. It's to do with the Normandy (have a read of it all it's very good and underlines just how good the music is) and how despite the music in the war room the underlying music is the exact same as ME1 once in ME2 when you're united with Virmire survivor and at other 'key' points during ME3. It's that 'we've completed the mission well done' music basically. Why, because we've been conditioned to it. It's comforting it's 'home' to us.

kotaku.com/5895616/mass-effect-3s-musical-secret

I think subliminal messaging in something as simple as music (considering this composer isn't even the original composer he found it important to do it) means that Bioware could EASILY have tried to do it in other ways too because it's clearly important to them, thus this article may in a weird way add weight to the IDT.

Someone said that depending on the three choices the music changed? Not sure if that's true I might have misread it, would be interesting to see though.

In any case no matter what the audio and music in Mass Effect Series is beyong amazing, perhaps ME3 being the best I'm not sure I can decide

Sorry to dig this out again so much out of context.

I'm earning my money with music/sound design and was really blown away by the soundtrack and the audio in general.
Especially how the sounds of the environment and the soundtrack often melt together (like in this case).

Sorry for the OT!
Carry on!

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

greywardencommander wrote...

Why do people keep telling me it's impossible to beat indoctrination? Surely if the developers intended it in the first place (as in the app, whether scrapped or not it was possible for him to beat it). Also lesser minds would have been destroyed by the Prothean beacon thus the precedent for him to have the power to do so is set...that alone is enough to convince me he can.
throw in a mind-meld with Shiala who thanks to the Thorian was able to recover from indoctrination and the fact he's just one tough S.O.B and I see no reason why not

Not even mentioning Saren who despite implants and beeing inside Sovreign for how long? Months? Still managed to break free and shoot himself. And Shepard only needs to resist Indoctrination long enough to end the Reaper threat then the signal they trasnmit should stop, right?

[greywardencommander]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Why do people keep telling me it's impossible to beat indoctrination? Surely if the developers intended it in the first place (as in the app, whether scrapped or not it was possible for him to beat it). Also lesser minds would have been destroyed by the Prothean beacon thus the precedent for him to have the power to do so is set...that alone is enough to convince me he can.
throw in a mind-meld with Shiala who thanks to the Thorian was able to recover from indoctrination and the fact he's just one tough S.O.B and I see no reason why not

Not even mentioning Saren who despite implants and beeing inside Sovreign for how long? Months? Still managed to break free and shoot himself. And Shepard only needs to resist Indoctrination long enough to end the Reaper threat then the signal they trasnmit should stop, right?

In the case of indoctrinated yes I'm saying 
Indoctrinated = can't be reversed (even if temporarily resisted to kill self or make a monologue or whatever)
Indoctrination process = can be beaten and resisted and that's what we're arguing happens to Shepard

I also keep using the example of Harry Potter, noone ran around telling him he hadn't survived the killing curse because no KNOWN person had before (a huge melodramatic exaggeration I know but stay with me) and the fact he's unique is what makes it possible. What's to say that's the case with Shepard, his unique experiences, personality etc make him able to resist.

[Rifneno]

greywardencommander wrote...

Why do people keep telling me it's impossible to beat indoctrination?

Shepard: They told me it was impossible to get to Ilos too.
Thane: A fair point.  You've made a career out of doing the impossible.

Perfect quote is perfect.

[Erethrian]

greywardencommander wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Why do people keep telling me it's impossible to beat indoctrination? Surely if the developers intended it in the first place (as in the app, whether scrapped or not it was possible for him to beat it). Also lesser minds would have been destroyed by the Prothean beacon thus the precedent for him to have the power to do so is set...that alone is enough to convince me he can.
throw in a mind-meld with Shiala who thanks to the Thorian was able to recover from indoctrination and the fact he's just one tough S.O.B and I see no reason why not

Not even mentioning Saren who despite implants and beeing inside Sovreign for how long? Months? Still managed to break free and shoot himself. And Shepard only needs to resist Indoctrination long enough to end the Reaper threat then the signal they trasnmit should stop, right?

In the case of indoctrinated yes I'm saying 
Indoctrinated = can't be reversed (even if temporarily resisted to kill self or make a monologue or whatever)
Indoctrination process = can be beaten and resisted and that's what we're arguing happens to Shepard

I also keep using the example of Harry Potter, noone ran around telling him he hadn't survived the killing curse because no KNOWN person had before (a huge melodramatic exaggeration I know but stay with me) and the fact he's unique is what makes it possible. What's to say that's the case with Shepard, his unique experiences, personality etc make him able to resist.

I agree with that.

[Tiny5th]

I believe that Shepard being in arrival could be considered canon because in the comic that introduces Vega (forget which one) he rips the tv off the wall when the news mentions shep was there.

I'm assuming save for deception they try and keep the novels and comics Canon.

[obie191970]

Tiny5th wrote...

I believe that Shepard being in arrival could be considered canon because in the comic that introduces Vega (forget which one) he rips the tv off the wall when the news mentions shep was there.

I'm assuming save for deception they try and keep the novels and comics Canon.

The novels definitely are as they brought the main character from them into ME3.

[Denvian]

Erethrian wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Why do people keep telling me it's impossible to beat indoctrination? Surely if the developers intended it in the first place (as in the app, whether scrapped or not it was possible for him to beat it). Also lesser minds would have been destroyed by the Prothean beacon thus the precedent for him to have the power to do so is set...that alone is enough to convince me he can.
throw in a mind-meld with Shiala who thanks to the Thorian was able to recover from indoctrination and the fact he's just one tough S.O.B and I see no reason why not

Not even mentioning Saren who despite implants and beeing inside Sovreign for how long? Months? Still managed to break free and shoot himself. And Shepard only needs to resist Indoctrination long enough to end the Reaper threat then the signal they trasnmit should stop, right?

In the case of indoctrinated yes I'm saying 
Indoctrinated = can't be reversed (even if temporarily resisted to kill self or make a monologue or whatever)
Indoctrination process = can be beaten and resisted and that's what we're arguing happens to Shepard

I also keep using the example of Harry Potter, noone ran around telling him he hadn't survived the killing curse because no KNOWN person had before (a huge melodramatic exaggeration I know but stay with me) and the fact he's unique is what makes it possible. What's to say that's the case with Shepard, his unique experiences, personality etc make him able to resist.

I agree with that.

Indoctrinated = can't be reversed 

"Nonsense. You're only saying that because no one ever has."


Take a page from Westley

Things are only impossible until they are not!

Kind of like commander shepard coming back from the dead.

Modifié par Denvian, 23 mars 2012 - 12:53 .

[TrveOmegaSlayer]

Sorry to not quote this right
____________________________________________
Also an excellent find with Rhyth and the 1M1. Congratulations on solving one of the biggest "what the hell's that?"s of this whole ordeal. It's an ME1 model recycle... from the end of the Citadel. I realize I'm biased but I think that just screams more evidence of Shepard piecing the whole place today with crap he's seen from his past. I mean why else would they import that model JUST to put it in a place where it couldn't possibly be? Harbing--er, starchild specifically tells us no organic being has EVER been there. The only conclusion I can see is that they imported it just so it could look out of place.

You know, this gives me an idea. I doubt it'd be true because it'd have been found by now and it'd prove IT pretty much conclusively. But, LotSB isn't canon. If you didn't do it, Shepard doesn't even know at first the Liara is the Shadow Broker. So has anyone seen if the 2nd room in the "Citadel", the one that we believe is an imitation of Shepard's mind of the SB ship's engines with the sliding plates, is different if you're playing a Shepard that didn't do LotSB?
______________________________________________________

Shepard got accustomed to build things in his head after the Geth Fighter mission
In that mission he clearly confute Legion that says they're showing a place that could look familiar.