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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#20951
Denvian

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McGrzegorz wrote...

Now I'm fully indoctrinated. Thank you BIOWARE for that great experience.
Today at work I saw Catalyst Child and he spoke to me:

Look at the Colander (ending with all the holes). Why do you claim that's the Pot? (full valid ending(s)).

I wanted to respond but he was already gone…

IMHO IT it's the only thing that can explain all this chaos without creating another fan's outrage.
And it was planned… maybe BIOWARE didn't anticipate the magnitude of this twist… (fan reaction, etc)
So they can say whatever they want:
- We planning new ending, new content
- We will clarify things
- We will give you the closure

So I'm not surprised by Ray Muzyka's letter - it's all the part of the Great Design ;).
Anyway it's just my opinion.


Yeah I am sure that they are thrilled that people caught onto their scheme but I think they are still protecting the twist.

#20952
UKHaz

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nyrocron wrote...

UKHaz wrote...

Any news from the past couple of days? I've been away this week... Thanks! :)

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/ 


Wow! Thanks! Major development! So it wasn't an elabroate indoctrination plan by BioWare... Maybe we gave them too much credit, or more likely we were just kidding ourselves. Such a shame I thought it was a brilliant theory, BioWare should get in touch with the OP and pick their brain a bit all the same! Well done :) 

Doesn't sound like we're going to be getting a new ending though... Rather extra gameplay/cutscenes after the finale...

#20953
Denvian

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nyrocron wrote...

Rksmithers wrote...

byne wrote...

Foulpancake wrote...

I just want my happy ending with Liara...its all i want Bioware!...


I promised Liara lots of little blue children. I shall not rest until this is made a reality.



I agree COMPLETELY! the most depressing part was in the cut scene when they get out of the crashed normandy, and liara is smiling... WHAT!? NO! unacceptable, there is no way in HELL that liara would not be depressed for leaving shepard alive regardless if she knew he was alive or not, especially after telling him how much she loved him in more occasions than one. and if they kill her off I WILL DESTROY SOMEONE!!!! i Shouted out in protest when kai lang hit her on thessia.... i will not see her die like the deleted scene showed!!!!! its BOWL CRAP!


this! Posted Image


Not to mention Joker would be pissed that EDI is now in the big server in the sky.

#20954
RoyalGambit

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UKHaz wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

UKHaz wrote...

Any news from the past couple of days? I've been away this week... Thanks! :)

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/ 


Wow! Thanks! Major development! So it wasn't an elabroate indoctrination plan by BioWare... Maybe we gave them too much credit, or more likely we were just kidding ourselves. Such a shame I thought it was a brilliant theory, BioWare should get in touch with the OP and pick their brain a bit all the same! Well done :) 

Doesn't sound like we're going to be getting a new ending though... Rather extra gameplay/cutscenes after the finale...

I think you're jumping to conclusions. InDoc could still be valid.

#20955
Vahilor

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Rksmithers wrote...

byne wrote...

Foulpancake wrote...

I just want my happy ending with Liara...its all i want Bioware!...


I promised Liara lots of little blue children. I shall not rest until this is made a reality.



I agree COMPLETELY! the most depressing part was in the cut scene when they get out of the crashed normandy, and liara is smiling... WHAT!? NO! unacceptable, there is no way in HELL that liara would not be depressed for leaving shepard alive regardless if she knew he was alive or not, especially after telling him how much she loved him in more occasions than one. and if they kill her off I WILL DESTROY SOMEONE!!!! i Shouted out in protest when kai lang hit her on thessia.... i will not see her die like the deleted scene showed!!!!! its BOWL CRAP!


I had the same feeling when I saw Ash walking out of the Normandy... (my LI) and she looked pretty happy.. why ??? You lost the man you told over three games you loved and you would not even bear loosing him again and now you walk happily out of the Normandy ?!?!

#20956
McGrzegorz

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Denvian wrote...

McGrzegorz wrote...

Now I'm fully indoctrinated. Thank you BIOWARE for that great experience.
Today at work I saw Catalyst Child and he spoke to me:

Look at the Colander (ending with all the holes). Why do you claim that's the Pot? (full valid ending(s)).

I wanted to respond but he was already gone…

IMHO IT it's the only thing that can explain all this chaos without creating another fan's outrage.
And it was planned… maybe BIOWARE didn't anticipate the magnitude of this twist… (fan reaction, etc)
So they can say whatever they want:
- We planning new ending, new content
- We will clarify things
- We will give you the closure

So I'm not surprised by Ray Muzyka's letter - it's all the part of the Great Design ;).
Anyway it's just my opinion.


Yeah I am sure that they are thrilled that people caught onto their scheme but I think they are still protecting the twist.


100% agreed. I'm preety sure at some point they had/have to improvise/adjust to the new situation...
EDIT: Spelling

Modifié par McGrzegorz, 23 mars 2012 - 06:11 .


#20957
Erethrian

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RoyalGambit wrote...

UKHaz wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

UKHaz wrote...

Any news from the past couple of days? I've been away this week... Thanks! :)

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/ 


Wow! Thanks! Major development! So it wasn't an elabroate indoctrination plan by BioWare... Maybe we gave them too much credit, or more likely we were just kidding ourselves. Such a shame I thought it was a brilliant theory, BioWare should get in touch with the OP and pick their brain a bit all the same! Well done :) 

Doesn't sound like we're going to be getting a new ending though... Rather extra gameplay/cutscenes after the finale...

I think you're jumping to conclusions. InDoc could still be valid.


Indeed, that's actually PR talk to avoid more refunds and FTC complaints, to me. ;)

#20958
Rksmithers

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hey and they did say that they didnt want to discuss anything or do anything untill more people got a chance to play and beat the game... so they had to have planned this from the start! reason i know, its what i would do if i had this much power with a popular game... getting rage from and ending just to see how truely devoted the fans were, then to give them 3000X the best of everthing to go out with a bang!

#20959
Denvian

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Vahilor wrote...

Rksmithers wrote...

byne wrote...

Foulpancake wrote...

I just want my happy ending with Liara...its all i want Bioware!...


I promised Liara lots of little blue children. I shall not rest until this is made a reality.



I agree COMPLETELY! the most depressing part was in the cut scene when they get out of the crashed normandy, and liara is smiling... WHAT!? NO! unacceptable, there is no way in HELL that liara would not be depressed for leaving shepard alive regardless if she knew he was alive or not, especially after telling him how much she loved him in more occasions than one. and if they kill her off I WILL DESTROY SOMEONE!!!! i Shouted out in protest when kai lang hit her on thessia.... i will not see her die like the deleted scene showed!!!!! its BOWL CRAP!


I had the same feeling when I saw Ash walking out of the Normandy... (my LI) and she looked pretty happy.. why ??? You lost the man you told over three games you loved and you would not even bear loosing him again and now you walk happily out of the Normandy ?!?!



Shepards Subconscious wants to see happy!!! Shepards Subconscious gets happy!

#20960
noobcannon

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RoyalGambit wrote...

UKHaz wrote...

Wow! Thanks! Major development! So it wasn't an elabroate indoctrination plan by BioWare... Maybe we gave them too much credit, or more likely we were just kidding ourselves. Such a shame I thought it was a brilliant theory, BioWare should get in touch with the OP and pick their brain a bit all the same! Well done :) 

Doesn't sound like we're going to be getting a new ending though... Rather extra gameplay/cutscenes after the finale...

I think you're jumping to conclusions. InDoc could still be valid.


he says listening to feedback and adding closure and somehow that means no indoc theory? someone's been drinking too much ign kool-aid.

Modifié par noobcannon, 23 mars 2012 - 06:13 .


#20961
SanoBub

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Rksmithers wrote...

yummysoap wrote...

You guys might all want it to be a dream sequence with the REAL ending yet to come in a delightful little DLC package but think about how the rest of the world would see that. Charging fans for a real ending would look like the worst money-grabbing tactic a game developer has pulled to date and everybody will be annoyed by it. I really doubt Bioware would risk that sort of bad press, especially since their reputation as EA's DLC-milkers is already quite damning.

Like it or not we're stuck with the endings. Shepard's either dead or seriously injured and marooned on earth, along with the quarians and the krogan and a ton of turians and possibly geth. The Normandy's trapped on some garden world with no way off because the relays were all destroyed. I just don't see where Bioware can really go with this IP anymore, unless the DLC is all pre Take Back Earth mission.




yeah, but think about this, why if shepard got burned up and killed entering that planets atmoshpere on mass effect 2, would he be able to survive not only the citidel blowing to hell, but the fall to earth, its impossible.

All that wouldn't even be his biggest problem. The temparatures in empty space would kill him within seconds.
Even if he would be superman and could somehow fall down to earth (which he wouldn't by the way....he would just float away as he did in ME2 since there is no gravity) he would be a frozen ice block way before he reaches the earth.

There are many, many small evidences of IT but the simple fact that he wakes up on earth simply can only be explained by it. There is no other solution I could think of.

#20962
greywardencommander

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Rksmithers wrote...

yummysoap wrote...

You guys might all want it to be a dream sequence with the REAL ending yet to come in a delightful little DLC package but think about how the rest of the world would see that. Charging fans for a real ending would look like the worst money-grabbing tactic a game developer has pulled to date and everybody will be annoyed by it. I really doubt Bioware would risk that sort of bad press, especially since their reputation as EA's DLC-milkers is already quite damning.

Like it or not we're stuck with the endings. Shepard's either dead or seriously injured and marooned on earth, along with the quarians and the krogan and a ton of turians and possibly geth. The Normandy's trapped on some garden world with no way off because the relays were all destroyed. I just don't see where Bioware can really go with this IP anymore, unless the DLC is all pre Take Back Earth mission.




yeah, but think about this, why if shepard got burned up and killed entering that planets atmoshpere on mass effect 2, would he be able to survive not only the citidel blowing to hell, but the fall to earth, its impossible.


not to mention that he talks about 'charging' that's his only argument basically. Who says anything about charging for it? No matter what way you look at it the IT theory is the easiest way to fix the endings without changing anything (think how long that would take, the probability of it looking botched etc) i.e. not pretending the endings never happened.

Make it free (if IT is intended or not) they lose money in short term, make money in the long term - (new players hear about the endings and then the real awesome endings done deliberately and want to see it for themselves) the hundreds of thousands of people who are thus happy and continue to buy merchandise and dlc (e.g. take back omega), invest in new spin off series etc etc

In the case it was deliberate - biggest PR & marketing stunt of all time (real world indoctrination, couldn't have had the same impact or even had people look so closely if it had happened in game then gone back to it)

In the case it wasn't - a company that listens to their fans, take's on their feedback and even does content based purely on it (not necessarily IT here but easiest way to make new endings without pretending last 10 mins didn't happen and even making that final choice matter in the dlc) that could be perceived as a pretty great company in the eyes of the press and even the gaming community outside of Mass Effect even if they botched up the original ending's writing and excecution.

So regardless, IT is the easiest option (other than epilogue but that does nothing to correct endings)

#20963
Denvian

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noobcannon wrote...

RoyalGambit wrote...

UKHaz wrote...

Wow! Thanks! Major development! So it wasn't an elabroate indoctrination plan by BioWare... Maybe we gave them too much credit, or more likely we were just kidding ourselves. Such a shame I thought it was a brilliant theory, BioWare should get in touch with the OP and pick their brain a bit all the same! Well done :) 

Doesn't sound like we're going to be getting a new ending though... Rather extra gameplay/cutscenes after the finale...

I think you're jumping to conclusions. InDoc could still be valid.


he says listening to feedback and adding closure and somehow that means no indoc theory? someone's been drinking too much ign kool-aid.


Don't jump her ass yet... I was a little bummed the first time I saw the statement too until I disected it

#20964
Rksmithers

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Denvian wrote...

Vahilor wrote...

Rksmithers wrote...

byne wrote...

Foulpancake wrote...

I just want my happy ending with Liara...its all i want Bioware!...


I promised Liara lots of little blue children. I shall not rest until this is made a reality.



I agree COMPLETELY! the most depressing part was in the cut scene when they get out of the crashed normandy, and liara is smiling... WHAT!? NO! unacceptable, there is no way in HELL that liara would not be depressed for leaving shepard alive regardless if she knew he was alive or not, especially after telling him how much she loved him in more occasions than one. and if they kill her off I WILL DESTROY SOMEONE!!!! i Shouted out in protest when kai lang hit her on thessia.... i will not see her die like the deleted scene showed!!!!! its BOWL CRAP!


I had the same feeling when I saw Ash walking out of the Normandy... (my LI) and she looked pretty happy.. why ??? You lost the man you told over three games you loved and you would not even bear loosing him again and now you walk happily out of the Normandy ?!?!



Shepards Subconscious wants to see happy!!! Shepards Subconscious gets happy!


My thoughts exactly he just wants to see his crew safe, and liara happy because thats what he would want, thats why they are on a lush green planet that wasnt touched by the reapers.

#20965
Absurdest Derivative

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"The Truth" is likely a *chan troll-hoax, probably from 4chan /v/. If it happens, nice, but I'd rather not give some anonymous troll the pleasure of emotionally investing in what is likely a falsehood.

After reading statements made by Ms. Merizan and Dr. Muzyka, as well as the recent Facebook comment about endings, I'm finding it harder to believe any kind of ending DLC  was planned, IT related or otherwise. Many games get sloppy toward the end, but BioWare has been more attentive to unsolicited suggestions from fans than other developers tend to be. They have EA's funding backing them, so I would not be pessimistic about eventually getting a/some DLC ending(s) just yet.

Don't get your hopes up, but don't count BW out either.

Rifneno wrote...

Catreina-JTV wrote...

It puts a very large hole in the evidence that the 1M1 was a figment of Shep's imagination/part of the hallucination. Considering the images were there on the Citadel during ME1 (that is the citadel, look at the background, it is virtually the same as the scene in ME3 with TIM) one would have to conclude that the images are real.

On the flip side however, theories based on the 1M1 could still be legitimate - remember how close Shepard was to Sovereign during that screenshot....


No.  It was seen in ME1 because we were in a part of the Citadel where humans and other organics lived and used.  Of course it'd be full of stuff from them.  The part of the Citadel where starchild was is not.  He very specifically tells Shepard that he is the first organic there ever.  How did something that is apparently from current day races get up to a hidden part of the Citadel where no organic has ever been?


Keepers' doing, probably. The 1m1 thing might have some meta reason, but if you take the sequence at face value, it's not really that weird.

Not as weird as the strange devices waiting for Shepard there. It doesn't make sense for any of them to be there or for them to do any of the things the self-admitted avatar of the Reapers (!!!) merely implies to Shepard that they do. I would want an Alliance tech team brought there, like Crucible techs shouldn't be supervising the link-up anyway! WTF, Hackett!  I thought you were on top of things.

In retrospect, maybe running into the Reapers' harvesting beam is a bad idea. That whole segment with the bodies in the Citadel corridor reminded me uncomfortably of the Prothean vision from the first Mass Effect.

...

Oh yeah, and regarding the piles of Onyx and Phoenix armor near the Citadel Conduit mentioned in the OP:  you can see them through a sniper scope before Harbinger zaps Shepard. They aren't hallucinatory unless Shepard was hallucinating prior to being zapped. Reaper forces must have been slaughtering Alliance resistance en masse.

#20966
NikolaiShade

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About the Normandy crash, I had the same feeling, the question is, if the theory is right of course, why Shepard blew up the mass relays?

Modifié par NikolaiShade, 23 mars 2012 - 06:22 .


#20967
greywardencommander

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noobcannon wrote...

RoyalGambit wrote...

UKHaz wrote...

Wow! Thanks! Major development! So it wasn't an elabroate indoctrination plan by BioWare... Maybe we gave them too much credit, or more likely we were just kidding ourselves. Such a shame I thought it was a brilliant theory, BioWare should get in touch with the OP and pick their brain a bit all the same! Well done :) 

Doesn't sound like we're going to be getting a new ending though... Rather extra gameplay/cutscenes after the finale...

I think you're jumping to conclusions. InDoc could still be valid.


he says listening to feedback and adding closure and somehow that means no indoc theory? someone's been drinking too much ign kool-aid.

I know right, seeing as Indoc theory can be based off the current endings WITHOUT changing a thing i.e. simplest way to 'fix' the endings I fail to see the idea that it dismisses it.

If planned 'altering the content' and listening to the feedback isn't simply a PR stunt to delay the reveal so doesn't say either way rather than dismissing the idea completely and saying 'the endings are the endings we're fixing it'

heck it might be 'altering their real ending because they realised they needed to be less subtle or wanted to include stuff some people said re. final choices, e.g. reapers losing. Heck it might be adding dialogue so indoctrination can work better dlc wise because of what people have said.

It might even be them discussing 'guys we need to make it free, it's still a great idea but charging probably not the best idea based on the day 1 dlc and this backlash about the endings not being there despite our obvious hints that the last 10 mins are an illusion/indoctrination attempt.

We still argue the endings are as they are for a reason, actual ending dlc (i.e. based on this, already more or less finished ready for release in the next big update, including the face import fix) is not changing the endings because nothing needs to be changed - the 10 mins are the battle for Shepard's mind

#20968
Rksmithers

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NikolaiShade wrote...

About the narmandy crash, I had the same feeling, the question is, if the theory is right of course, why Shepard blew up the mass relays?


he would probably imagine it as the best option to ensure nothing like this ever happens again...

#20969
lex0r11

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nyrocron wrote...

Rksmithers wrote...

byne wrote...

Foulpancake wrote...

I just want my happy ending with Liara...its all i want Bioware!...


I promised Liara lots of little blue children. I shall not rest until this is made a reality.



I agree COMPLETELY! the most depressing part was in the cut scene when they get out of the crashed normandy, and liara is smiling... WHAT!? NO! unacceptable, there is no way in HELL that liara would not be depressed for leaving shepard alive regardless if she knew he was alive or not, especially after telling him how much she loved him in more occasions than one. and if they kill her off I WILL DESTROY SOMEONE!!!! i Shouted out in protest when kai lang hit her on thessia.... i will not see her die like the deleted scene showed!!!!! its BOWL CRAP!


this! Posted Image


Aaaawwww, stop it people!

You are making Liara feel all embarrassed and stuff.

Posted Image

#20970
JustAidan

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RoyalGambit wrote...

UKHaz wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

UKHaz wrote...

Any news from the past couple of days? I've been away this week... Thanks! :)

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/ 


Wow! Thanks! Major development! So it wasn't an elabroate indoctrination plan by BioWare... Maybe we gave them too much credit, or more likely we were just kidding ourselves. Such a shame I thought it was a brilliant theory, BioWare should get in touch with the OP and pick their brain a bit all the same! Well done :) 

Doesn't sound like we're going to be getting a new ending though... Rather extra gameplay/cutscenes after the finale...

I think you're jumping to conclusions. InDoc could still be valid.


Yep, that post says absolutely nothing but PR double speak. Either for or against this theory can be read into it.

#20971
greywardencommander

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NikolaiShade wrote...

About the narmandy crash, I had the same feeling, the question is, if the theory is right of course, why Shepard blew up the mass relays?


it's representing his brain either succumbing to (blue and green) or rejecting (red) the indoctrination. The mass relays firing represent the neurons. It starts in the Viper Nebula (where the only relay was destroyed, because in Arrival we did it, or happened canon but Shepard wasn't there if didn't play) not in the Sol system (where it should originate given the fact the Citadel (where the catalyst and crucible are) is where it should start.

Why because the Viper Nebula is where it started (knocked out for two days exposed to Object Rho the Reaper Artifact that had indoctrinated the people there)

Edit: even if it's not the viper nebula
a) why do it anywhere other than the sol system
B) it stems from the citadel and the crucible, it should be the sol system

Modifié par greywardencommander, 23 mars 2012 - 06:26 .


#20972
tomhagen27

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if IT is correct there'll be a way higher chance of bioware releasing the end dlc in the next couple weeks or so, if it isn't correct and they're gonna run with it anyways it'll probably be another 6-9 weeks before we see dlc

#20973
Guest_mayrabgood_*

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I just came in here to say that I will believe in the Indoctrination Theory until BioWare comes out and says it in an official statement that that is not the case. 

I don't understand how some people can say the IT is false or debunked just because a vague statement is put on twitter that says practically nothing. They just give up just like that. All we have to do is wait a little longer to find out what they are planning or have had planned all along. It's not that hard.

I mean the clues are all there and it would blow my mind to find out they weren't intentional and just a coincidence. The writers can't be that bad. 

Anyways, keep up the good work :)

Modifié par mayrabgood, 23 mars 2012 - 06:30 .


#20974
Denvian

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Rksmithers wrote...

Denvian wrote...

Vahilor wrote...

Rksmithers wrote...

byne wrote...

Foulpancake wrote...

I just want my happy ending with Liara...its all i want Bioware!...


I promised Liara lots of little blue children. I shall not rest until this is made a reality.



I agree COMPLETELY! the most depressing part was in the cut scene when they get out of the crashed normandy, and liara is smiling... WHAT!? NO! unacceptable, there is no way in HELL that liara would not be depressed for leaving shepard alive regardless if she knew he was alive or not, especially after telling him how much she loved him in more occasions than one. and if they kill her off I WILL DESTROY SOMEONE!!!! i Shouted out in protest when kai lang hit her on thessia.... i will not see her die like the deleted scene showed!!!!! its BOWL CRAP!


I had the same feeling when I saw Ash walking out of the Normandy... (my LI) and she looked pretty happy.. why ??? You lost the man you told over three games you loved and you would not even bear loosing him again and now you walk happily out of the Normandy ?!?!



Shepards Subconscious wants to see happy!!! Shepards Subconscious gets happy!


My thoughts exactly he just wants to see his crew safe, and liara happy because thats what he would want, thats why they are on a lush green planet that wasnt touched by the reapers.


Not to mention Joker mentioned taking a break by the beach.... oh and look at that... they crashed near a beach... How nice of fate.

Modifié par Denvian, 23 mars 2012 - 06:31 .


#20975
byne

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Rksmithers wrote...

My thoughts exactly he just wants to see his crew safe, and liara happy because thats what he would want, thats why they are on a lush green planet that wasnt touched by the reapers.


“I spent two years mourning you. So if we're going to try this, I need to know you're always coming back.” - Liara

“Forgive the insubordination, but your boyfriend has an order for you...come back alive. It'd be an awfully empty galaxy without you….” - Garrus

"I want more time..." - Tali, near tears

"I dont want you to go!"  - Ashley, also near tears

"I'm going to fight like hell for the chance to hold you again." - Kaidan

Our love interests just forget about things they've said, and are suddenly all happy stranded on a planet, never to see us again?

No Bioware. No. 

If it isnt a hallucination, Bioware apparently just forgot everything about all their characters, which doesnt make any sense, because characters have always been the thing Bioware does best.