There is two possibility :
1) The ending is true, i want a Ending DLC about a Shepard indoctrinated.
2) The ending is fake and i want the true ending right now. I have waited enough time for ME3, pre-order the digital edition, take some vacations, i want the END ! I pay for it !
Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory
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byne
, mars 10 2012 12:46
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#2077
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:21
Yuzna75
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Deltateam Elcor wrote...
Just realised that the music for leaving earth is sort of the same as the one when you are meeting the child on the citadel.
Hmm.
That's because Clint Mansell rocks
#2078
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:21
ynh
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SomeBug wrote...
ynh wrote...
This is a genius idea though. Right now, everyone is super depressed and even angry. If Bioware releases a DLC that has Shepard wake up after beating indoctrination, people would flip in excitement.
Great way to bond your fan-base even better in a sense. I know I'd be super happy.
Nope.
Firstly, you'd completely lose the fans that have no ability to download new content. This is a not-insignificant proportion of the players.
Secondly, you'd ****** everyone off just for a marketing stunt. There is no reason to withhold endings in this way. There is no precedent because everyone else has rightlfully concluded it is a dumb idea.
Thirdly, with all the negative press about the From Ashes DLC and how a lot of its assets are on-disc, can you imagine the fury, the firestorm that would engulf this company if they literally sold us an ending.
Even if the ending DLC was free, they've parcelled out an experience to promote their DLC delivery system. It's racketeering. It's insidious and no-one would allow it.
It would have been shot down six months ago as a stupid idea by smart people with experience.
Fair enough. I was viewing this more along the lines of a crazy twist to the end that Bioware has yet to release. Keep in mind my previous post to lookingglass.
#2079
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:22
Leiha
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I appreciate your posts, SomeBug. It's good to not have everyone agree. Even though I do want to hope for a fix for the ending it's good to have my feet planted on the ground.
Just out of curiousity, what is your take on why the squad members you brought with you for the final battle can be seen walking out of the Normandy when they land on paradise?
Just out of curiousity, what is your take on why the squad members you brought with you for the final battle can be seen walking out of the Normandy when they land on paradise?
#2080
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:22
humes spork
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lookingglassmind wrote...
I think it strongly implies that there WILL be DLC that explains the ending. Whether it will pick up after Shepard wakes up is up for debate -- for example, what sort of DLC would be available to those that chose Synthesis or Control? Would you HAVE to Destroy in order to access the DLC?
I just might be more pissed over that than I already am over the current ending. My canon Shep had her perceptions rocked and her mind opened beyond anything she ever thought possible at the beginning of ME1, even concluding by the end of ME3 that synthetic life was still life, had rights, and deserved the ability to determine their own fate like any other form of life. By the end, she was fighting for all life, and not just "sufficiently advanced civilizations" or organics alone. She was fighting for Legion as much as she was Mordin, to make their sacrifices and their contrition, innocence lost, and idealism matter. And not only that, but by doing so she not just ends the Reaper threat but once and for all prove them inextricably and undeniably wrong, which for a form of life that operates by hard logic alone and doesn't consider death a defeat in and of itself is a far more powerful loss than simply to kill them.
In the words of a certain infamous sci-fi villain, "I've done far worse than kill you...I've hurt you. And I wish to go on hurting you..."
Modifié par humes spork, 11 mars 2012 - 05:23 .
#2081
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:23
BobbyTheI
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You know, I stared at this thread for the longest time, thinking that all the folks posting were delusional and in denial, and not even bothering to open it.
And to be clear, I honestly don't believe that this interpretation is what BioWare intended. I do enjoy their writing, don't get me wrong, but subtlety has never been one of their strong suits.
But that said... I think it works pretty well as a headcanon, actually. And makes a lot more sense than Shepard somehow surviving a space station explosion and plummeting back to Earth for no apparent reason.
And if BioWare pulls a (http://tvtropes.org/...n/AscendedFanon) on this with DLC, I think I'd be behind it.
And to be clear, I honestly don't believe that this interpretation is what BioWare intended. I do enjoy their writing, don't get me wrong, but subtlety has never been one of their strong suits.
But that said... I think it works pretty well as a headcanon, actually. And makes a lot more sense than Shepard somehow surviving a space station explosion and plummeting back to Earth for no apparent reason.
And if BioWare pulls a (http://tvtropes.org/...n/AscendedFanon) on this with DLC, I think I'd be behind it.
#2082
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:24
segfaulthunter
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I wonder, if this is true, why the Husks can kill you when you don't shoot them?
#2083
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:24
Pyewacket
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Rana Thanoptis: "Indoctrination is subtle. By the time the effects become noticeable, it's usually too late."
HMMM... I gotta tell you, the indoctrination theory may turn out to be wrong, but it makes so much sense that I'm actually going back to the previous games and going over different pieces of dialogue. It just makes so much SENSE.
Hell, even if it IS wrong, it's now my new canon. Anything that gives me enough hope to make playing the games enjoyable again is an absolute godsend.
Seriously, it even explains all my, "What the hell is the deal with this kid?" questions.
HMMM... I gotta tell you, the indoctrination theory may turn out to be wrong, but it makes so much sense that I'm actually going back to the previous games and going over different pieces of dialogue. It just makes so much SENSE.
Hell, even if it IS wrong, it's now my new canon. Anything that gives me enough hope to make playing the games enjoyable again is an absolute godsend.
Seriously, it even explains all my, "What the hell is the deal with this kid?" questions.
#2084
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:26
lookingglassmind
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segfaulthunter wrote...
I wonder, if this is true, why the Husks can kill you when you don't shoot them?
Because Shepard believes they can. It's his/her dream. Suspension of disbelief is implied. If Shepard believes, through experience, that the Husks can kill him unless he shoots them, then they will. And then, he dies. Succumbing to indoctrination.
#2085
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:26
Ulmo11
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Not sure if this is important or not, but after you wake up from the reaper attack on the courtroom in the very beginning you get a bit of that hazy dream like stuff, then you have the magical no ammo gun until Anderson tells you you're out of ammo.
#2086
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:28
Deltateam Elcor
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SomeBug wrote...
ynh wrote...
This is a genius idea though. Right now, everyone is super depressed and even angry. If Bioware releases a DLC that has Shepard wake up after beating indoctrination, people would flip in excitement.
Great way to bond your fan-base even better in a sense. I know I'd be super happy.
Nope.
Firstly, you'd completely lose the fans that have no ability to download new content. This is a not-insignificant proportion of the players.
Secondly, you'd ****** everyone off just for a marketing stunt. There is no reason to withhold endings in this way. There is no precedent because everyone else has rightlfully concluded it is a dumb idea.
Thirdly, with all the negative press about the From Ashes DLC and how a lot of its assets are on-disc, can you imagine the fury, the firestorm that would engulf this company if they literally sold us an ending.
Even if the ending DLC was free, they've parcelled out an experience to promote their DLC delivery system. It's racketeering. It's insidious and no-one would allow it.
It would have been shot down six months ago as a stupid idea by smart people with experience.
It may be a time related release of ingame code, though i dont see how that is happening.
#2087
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:28
BlackDragonBane
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So I went back to play my ending and chosen destruction, got the little breathing scene at the end and all that, but I took some extra time to pay attention to what was going on in the final phases. If I repeat the theories already present, please bear with me.
After Harbinger nearly kills Shepard, they black out. When they reawaken, Shepard's armor is severely damaged, he/she is wounded, and the others making the run for the Conduit are dead. I looked around the area and the sqaud members are nowhere to be found at all, just dead Alliance marines. The pistol you have has infinite ammo, don't even have to reload it.
When you make the jump to the Citadel through the Conduit, you end up in a strange hallway full of bodies and it looks nothing like any place we've seen on the Citadel. I checked the piles of corpses and their all human, either with bald heads or wearing marine armor with the helmets on. There is no sign of Asari, Turian, Salarian, Batarian, Volus, Elcor, or Hanar anywhere.
When you arrive at the console, Anderson is already there, but the Illusive Man is nowhere to be scene until he walks up behind you. There's only one way into that room and even if the walls were changing like Anderson had stated, you should have been able to see Anderson before making it to the console. As soon as TIM shows up, you get the weird black vein edges on the screen and the Reaper-like growling sound playing, however this does not persist, only when TIM is trying to force his ideas on Shepard.
As others have theorized, it is likely that Anderson and TIM represent the Paragon and Renegade sides of Shepard's coin. Anderson is unable to act, yet he is saying lines that we would think the Commander himself/herself would say at the Illusive Man. TIM has the appearance of a Husk, even though through out the entire game up until this point, he shows no signs of actually changing in the slilghtest, and then suddenly he's got synthetic skin patches all over. At points in the conversation, whenever Shepard seems like they're resisting, you see the black veins and hear the Reaper sound, likely Harbinger's attempts to quash Shepard's will and completely indoctrinate them.
Both Anderson and the Illusive Man die, a figurative representation of not only killing the Renegade side of Shepard, also seeing the Paragon side collapse and die, leaving Shepard in an almost neutral light.
When taken to the top of the Citadel, there is nothing in that section that would suggest it has an enclosed atmosphere. Shepard is standing in the vacuum of space and BREATHING and not wearing a pressurized suit. In reality, Shepard should have imploded as soon as the elevator dropped him/her off.
The Catalyst's form is Harbinger's attempt to appeal to the more emotional side of Shepard's conciousness, to use the regret the Commander is feeling for having to flee Earth when the Reapers first attacked to trap the Commander into thinking that chosing either Synthesis or Control are the right options. Right off the bat, Catalyst intentionally says that they know he/she is there to destroy them, but goes on to say that it would not only destroy the Geth and any other synethtics, like EDI and those with implants, but also that it was not a solution to peace. "Your children's children will build synthetics..." is roughly the line Catalyst says, attempting to paint the Destruction option in a bad light as much as possible.
Synthesis is presented as the 'perfect' solution to the synthetic/organic conflict, but given how a Reaper is made, this is likely Harbinger's attempt to destroy Shepard's will by appealing to their sense of honor and integrity. painting a pretty picture that the two can co-exist by implanting sythetics and organics with a Reaperized version of Shepard's DNA. Control is the more blatant attempt at getting Shepard out of the picture and become a part of the Reapers, appealing to perhaps a more power-hungry aspect of Shepard's personality. We even seen the Illusive Man at the Control option, which is being made to appear Paragon while we see Anderson on the Destruction option, which is being made to appear Renegade. The two are polar opposites of the choices they are represented in, which raises suspicions about which is truly Paragon and which is truly Renegade.
Both Control and Synthesis leave the Reapers alive, something they want because they know that with the galaxy united against them, there's a chance they might actually be obliterated themselves. Shepard is the uniting force and if successfully indoctrinated, they can turn the alliances against each other to regain the upper hand. The Destruction choice is the only one that leads to the scene where Shepard is seen lying amongst rubble and taking a breath. I compared the damaged armor from this scene to the damaged armor for when you wake up after Harbinger leaves and the patterns are identical. The whole scene from after Harbinger's attack is an indoctrinated-induced hallucination that is testing Shepard's will to continue fighting or finally giving into Harbinger.
There's a lot of little details that really support the whole indoctrination theory and I'm hoping its correct. But please, continue discussing. Just putting in my collected thoughts.
After Harbinger nearly kills Shepard, they black out. When they reawaken, Shepard's armor is severely damaged, he/she is wounded, and the others making the run for the Conduit are dead. I looked around the area and the sqaud members are nowhere to be found at all, just dead Alliance marines. The pistol you have has infinite ammo, don't even have to reload it.
When you make the jump to the Citadel through the Conduit, you end up in a strange hallway full of bodies and it looks nothing like any place we've seen on the Citadel. I checked the piles of corpses and their all human, either with bald heads or wearing marine armor with the helmets on. There is no sign of Asari, Turian, Salarian, Batarian, Volus, Elcor, or Hanar anywhere.
When you arrive at the console, Anderson is already there, but the Illusive Man is nowhere to be scene until he walks up behind you. There's only one way into that room and even if the walls were changing like Anderson had stated, you should have been able to see Anderson before making it to the console. As soon as TIM shows up, you get the weird black vein edges on the screen and the Reaper-like growling sound playing, however this does not persist, only when TIM is trying to force his ideas on Shepard.
As others have theorized, it is likely that Anderson and TIM represent the Paragon and Renegade sides of Shepard's coin. Anderson is unable to act, yet he is saying lines that we would think the Commander himself/herself would say at the Illusive Man. TIM has the appearance of a Husk, even though through out the entire game up until this point, he shows no signs of actually changing in the slilghtest, and then suddenly he's got synthetic skin patches all over. At points in the conversation, whenever Shepard seems like they're resisting, you see the black veins and hear the Reaper sound, likely Harbinger's attempts to quash Shepard's will and completely indoctrinate them.
Both Anderson and the Illusive Man die, a figurative representation of not only killing the Renegade side of Shepard, also seeing the Paragon side collapse and die, leaving Shepard in an almost neutral light.
When taken to the top of the Citadel, there is nothing in that section that would suggest it has an enclosed atmosphere. Shepard is standing in the vacuum of space and BREATHING and not wearing a pressurized suit. In reality, Shepard should have imploded as soon as the elevator dropped him/her off.
The Catalyst's form is Harbinger's attempt to appeal to the more emotional side of Shepard's conciousness, to use the regret the Commander is feeling for having to flee Earth when the Reapers first attacked to trap the Commander into thinking that chosing either Synthesis or Control are the right options. Right off the bat, Catalyst intentionally says that they know he/she is there to destroy them, but goes on to say that it would not only destroy the Geth and any other synethtics, like EDI and those with implants, but also that it was not a solution to peace. "Your children's children will build synthetics..." is roughly the line Catalyst says, attempting to paint the Destruction option in a bad light as much as possible.
Synthesis is presented as the 'perfect' solution to the synthetic/organic conflict, but given how a Reaper is made, this is likely Harbinger's attempt to destroy Shepard's will by appealing to their sense of honor and integrity. painting a pretty picture that the two can co-exist by implanting sythetics and organics with a Reaperized version of Shepard's DNA. Control is the more blatant attempt at getting Shepard out of the picture and become a part of the Reapers, appealing to perhaps a more power-hungry aspect of Shepard's personality. We even seen the Illusive Man at the Control option, which is being made to appear Paragon while we see Anderson on the Destruction option, which is being made to appear Renegade. The two are polar opposites of the choices they are represented in, which raises suspicions about which is truly Paragon and which is truly Renegade.
Both Control and Synthesis leave the Reapers alive, something they want because they know that with the galaxy united against them, there's a chance they might actually be obliterated themselves. Shepard is the uniting force and if successfully indoctrinated, they can turn the alliances against each other to regain the upper hand. The Destruction choice is the only one that leads to the scene where Shepard is seen lying amongst rubble and taking a breath. I compared the damaged armor from this scene to the damaged armor for when you wake up after Harbinger leaves and the patterns are identical. The whole scene from after Harbinger's attack is an indoctrinated-induced hallucination that is testing Shepard's will to continue fighting or finally giving into Harbinger.
There's a lot of little details that really support the whole indoctrination theory and I'm hoping its correct. But please, continue discussing. Just putting in my collected thoughts.
#2088
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:28
Outlaw704
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The Child gives clues that Synergy means becoming a reaper.. First he says Synergy is the highest form of "evolution" and what have reapers been saying the whole time? "We are your genetic destiny shepard"... Then he says its becoming half organic/half synthetic which is what the Reapers are evidently..
I believe the synergy and controlling to a lesser extent is giving in what the reapers want, since you are jumping into that beam become huskified then become liquified, I think you become the avatar for the new human reaper... very sneaky
I believe the synergy and controlling to a lesser extent is giving in what the reapers want, since you are jumping into that beam become huskified then become liquified, I think you become the avatar for the new human reaper... very sneaky
#2089
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:29
lookingglassmind
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humes spork wrote...
lookingglassmind wrote...
I think it strongly implies that there WILL be DLC that explains the ending. Whether it will pick up after Shepard wakes up is up for debate -- for example, what sort of DLC would be available to those that chose Synthesis or Control? Would you HAVE to Destroy in order to access the DLC?
I just might be more pissed over that than I already am over the current ending. My canon Shep had her perceptions rocked and her mind opened beyond anything she ever thought possible at the beginning of ME1, even concluding by the end of ME3 that synthetic life was still life, had rights, and deserved the ability to determine their own fate like any other form of life. By the end, she was fighting for all life, and not just "sufficiently advanced civilizations" or organics alone. She was fighting for Legion as much as she was Mordin, to make their sacrifices and their contrition, innocence lost, and idealism matter. And not only that, but by doing so she not just ends the Reaper threat but once and for all prove them inextricably and undeniably wrong, which for a form of life that operates by hard logic alone and doesn't consider death a defeat in and of itself is a far more powerful loss than simply to kill them.
In the words of a certain infamous sci-fi villain, "I've done far worse than kill you...I've hurt you. And I wish to go on hurting you..."
Yeah, this whole Synthesis thing is the least clear aspect of all of this. I just...don't know.
And, hey, humes.
#2090
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:29
Ice Cold J
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Pyewacket wrote...
Rana Thanoptis: "Indoctrination is subtle. By the time the effects become noticeable, it's usually too late."
HMMM... I gotta tell you, the indoctrination theory may turn out to be wrong, but it makes so much sense that I'm actually going back to the previous games and going over different pieces of dialogue. It just makes so much SENSE.
Hell, even if it IS wrong, it's now my new canon. Anything that gives me enough hope to make playing the games enjoyable again is an absolute godsend.
Seriously, it even explains all my, "What the hell is the deal with this kid?" questions.
I fully took the "black swirls" in your screen when you were debating with The Illusive Man as the effects of indoctrintion taking it's toll on you.
Now, whether or not this ends when he dies is purely speculation, but...
Again, anything to give us hope.
#2091
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:32
comrade gando
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Looks like if this is true (the evidence pointing towards this is just bananas), we just might be able to fight Harbinger as the final boss! Would be so beastly fighting him, he would be like "Your mind is weak shepard, ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" and summon hallucinations of your squadmates you gotta fight. He would also summon a doppelganger shepard, kinda like dark link esque I guess. There's just so much they could do here it's ludicrous.
Modifié par comrade gando, 11 mars 2012 - 05:37 .
#2092
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:33
humes spork
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Ulmo11 wrote...
Not sure if this is important or not, but after you wake up from the reaper attack on the courtroom in the very beginning you get a bit of that hazy dream like stuff, then you have the magical no ammo gun until Anderson tells you you're out of ammo.
It's not a "magical no ammo gun". It's a tutorial sequence integrated into gameplay, in that you're given so little ammo that you run out shooting up the husks climbing the wall, and if you save your ammo husks continue to spawn until you run out before the "run up and melee them" prompt. Or, if you just never shoot and melee the crap out of them anyways (like I did, level 30 vanguard HOOOOOO) it's implied Shep drops their T-clips trying to escape from the Reaper beam.
Which of course, begs the question of how on God's green Earth did the kid survive that blast by hiding in the air ducts? That building was toast. Must've been some damn tough air ducts. The Alliance shouldna been piddle-farting around with better armor or kinetic shields, just build a dreadnought made completely out of air ducts.
Modifié par humes spork, 11 mars 2012 - 05:33 .
#2093
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:33
Recon911PDW
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Guys think about it, the scene where Shepard is lying in concrete rubble still in London at the end is a dead giveaway that the ending was all in his/her head and that the fight is not over. That beam knocked Shepard out pretty good.
Modifié par Recon911PDW, 11 mars 2012 - 05:34 .
#2094
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:34
lavosslayer
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SomeBug wrote...
ynh wrote...
This is a genius idea though. Right now, everyone is super depressed and even angry. If Bioware releases a DLC that has Shepard wake up after beating indoctrination, people would flip in excitement.
Great way to bond your fan-base even better in a sense. I know I'd be super happy.
Nope.
Firstly, you'd completely lose the fans that have no ability to download new content. This is a not-insignificant proportion of the players.
Secondly, you'd ****** everyone off just for a marketing stunt. There is no reason to withhold endings in this way. There is no precedent because everyone else has rightlfully concluded it is a dumb idea.
Thirdly, with all the negative press about the From Ashes DLC and how a lot of its assets are on-disc, can you imagine the fury, the firestorm that would engulf this company if they literally sold us an ending.
Even if the ending DLC was free, they've parcelled out an experience to promote their DLC delivery system. It's racketeering. It's insidious and no-one would allow it.
It would have been shot down six months ago as a stupid idea by smart people with experience.
Personally I don't mind counterpoints at all I even went so far as to praise someone else who was doing so earlier in the thread.
However, every post I've seen you make comes off as smug and condescending even patronizing in tone. What does allowing us to think this way or find our own resolution to the events of the ending do to affect you? Does it secretly sound convincing enough that your only way to prevent youreslf from becoming hopeful again require you to attempt to dash everyones hopes?
We can all be adult about our own feelings here and some of us choose to explore more options then just what we were literally given. Its not like this has any implication on RL to theorize the ending meaning of a video game...
So while your opinion is appreciated I seriously hope that you reconsider your responses before posting. We all love objectivity however in a thread about a theory based on a work of fiction, I seriously don't see why letting us revel in our own idea is such a bad thing?
#2095
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:38
thePredator50
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Stupid question - what does 1m1 stand for?
#2096
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:38
Pyewacket
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humes spork wrote...
Which of course, begs the question of how on God's green Earth did the kid survive that blast by hiding in the air ducts? That building was toast. Must've been some damn tough air ducts. The Alliance shouldna been piddle-farting around with better armor or kinetic shields, just build a dreadnought made completely out of air ducts.
Hehehehe. It's funny, because it's implausible. An internet to you good sir, or madam.
#2097
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:40
Drake_1000
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#2098
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:41
Drake_1000
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segfaulthunter wrote...
I wonder, if this is true, why the Husks can kill you when you don't shoot them?
And why you die if you dont go in the conduit ?
#2099
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:41
Leiha
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I wondered this myself. A quick Google search didn't come up with anything other than threads on this theory, so I'm going to assume that we don't know yet(in that case we probably won't find out either).thePredator50 wrote...
Stupid question - what does 1m1 stand for?
EDIT: I might've been a bit unclear when I said "this theory." I meant this theory as in the indoctrination/hallucination theory.
Modifié par Leiha, 11 mars 2012 - 05:43 .
#2100
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:41
MattFini
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This thread/theory has me so uplifted that I actually started a second playthrough today - something I never thought Id do after that insulting ending. But the evidence is just so overwhelming.
