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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#21076
Either.Ardrey

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Fun little thing i thought about.

Remember the conversation with Garrus on the Normandy right after he becomes a squadmate in ME3. Where he tells you he told his father everything that had happened and while there was no definitive proof his father could see that it all connected and believed him.

Aint that very similar to all that we have done here? Putting together all the pieces, but without conclusive evidence?


I even posted the direct quote a couple days ago. Good to see I'm not the only one that saw this.:happy:

#21077
Stigweird85

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Playing the game as we speak

Got to conversation where Liara produces the black box of the universe and says she will scatter it across hundreds of planets.

If what we see at the end of the game is true, wouldn't they know it as fact rather than just a tale passed from one generation to the next? Assuming they found one of course

#21078
Rifneno

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FellishBeast wrote...

Just played through Arrival DLC again and noticed that from the message logs the people were SPECIFICALLY mentioning having weird dreams. Just a bit of info to counter people saying that indoctrination has never been shown to cause dreams. Yep. You're welcome.


I've been pointing at that everytime an IT opponent goes "they're just nightmares lol" since about page 300.  Take off the 3 and you've got exactly the number of them that listened!

#21079
JustAidan

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Rob Psyence wrote...

Just a small thing I wanted to bring up about the destroy option, but notice that you must break the power conduit. It's obvious to me that the breaking of it is symbolic of "breaking free." Why have that symbolic action if you weren't breaking free of something. Thoughts?


The pipe is a copy of the ones you shoot to fight the human proto-reaper in ME2 (just repeating what others found).

Pretty much everything in the last 10 minutes of ME3 is something from Shepards memory, no new assests were used.

FellishBeast wrote...

Just played through Arrival DLC
again and noticed that from the message logs the people were
SPECIFICALLY mentioning having weird dreams. Just a bit of info to
counter people saying that indoctrination has never been shown to cause
dreams. Yep. You're welcome.


And the Arrival DLC was to make the setup for ME3, when they had their story details worked out. Circumstancial evidence :)

Modifié par JustAidan, 23 mars 2012 - 10:13 .


#21080
JustAidan

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Double post

Modifié par JustAidan, 23 mars 2012 - 10:12 .


#21081
IronSabbath88

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So apparently IGN is on board with this theory after the whole playthrough.

I know IGN isn't exactly the most credible or trustworthy source, but considering they agree with this theory, I'd take it as a good sign that it's branching out.

(I don't support IGN at all)

#21082
Stigweird85

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IGN are probably just trying to get on our good side after spending the last few days making fun of the community(okay it may have only been one commentator but still)

#21083
nyrocron

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Maybe IGN even know something we don't, considering their assumed past involvement with BioWare.

But overall I don't really like them so...

Modifié par nyrocron, 23 mars 2012 - 10:22 .


#21084
Flapperrr

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Probably, it not novelty, but:
Posted Image

At the left Shep, whom we see in a red ending and a strange tube in his space suit, and on the right the same tube conducting in Rahni eggs, for that those started to submit to Reapers. The picture at the left is shown specially up, that it would be visible better.

#21085
IronSabbath88

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I don't think that's the same thing. That to me looks like the rebar on Earth.

#21086
Stigweird85

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interesting Flapperr, could lend itself to IT

Shepard collapses and is then hardwired into reaper tech which creates the illusion or it could just be rebar as the guy above pointed out.

interesting none the less

Modifié par bigstig, 23 mars 2012 - 10:23 .


#21087
Reptilian Rob

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Flapperrr wrote...

Probably, it not novelty, but:
Posted Image

At the left Shep, whom we see in a red ending and a strange tube in his space suit, and on the right the same tube conducting in Rahni eggs, for that those started to submit to Reapers. The picture at the left is shown specially up, that it would be visible better.

Probably just reused assets.

#21088
JustAidan

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OOohhh. DLC was already in the works before the outrage, now does he mean the Ending DLC:

(Interview with the actor who vocies male Shepard)

http://www.forbes.co...ending-and-dlc/

http://social.biowar.../index/10530159

Modifié par JustAidan, 23 mars 2012 - 10:28 .


#21089
Stigweird85

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Sadly doesn't mean anything.

It's safe to assume that any major title will have some sort of DLC post launch providing it's a success.

#21090
IronSabbath88

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The fact that he says he can't say anything if he did know about ending DLC just re iterates what I've said before about devs and VA's alike.

Even if there IS some big consipracy and there is yet more coming, you wouldn't know about it. They're going to keep hushed about the whole thing.

#21091
Schlafmuetzer

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So, first of all, im a big fan of this theory, thumbs up to all the people who came up with it. I sure do hope its true :)

After reading about it and hearing that Bioware will release additional content soon, i asked myself: "How can the game go on if shep dies or gets indoctrinated?"

Well, i came up with an idea. I personally think its really unlikely, but kinda wish its true:
Since Mass Effect 3 has multiplayer, every race on your crew becomes playable from the third person shoulder view. Except for Javik, whose race might, if the rumors are true, be added in the next DLC pack, and EDI
So, all animations needed to make one of your crew members the protagonist are already ingame. What if one of them, who was running to the conduit with you, takes up the final fight against the reapers if Shepard didnt make it?

I know, its highly unlikely, one reason being, that the audio recording needed for a proper epilogue would be overwhelming. Also im not sure if the multiplayer/available protagonist thing makes sense, maybe the transition from squadmate to protagonist would be easier than i think :D

All facts aside, imagine it. I think it would make a pretty cool and different gameplay experience and would probably be a good continuation for 3/4 Endings.

P.S: Sorry for any mistakes or unintelligble gibberish, im from germany and my english probably isnt the best ;)

#21092
Stigweird85

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made perfect sense to me, it could work.

#21093
SirLugash

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Reptilian Rob wrote...

Flapperrr wrote...

Probably, it not novelty, but:
Posted Image

At the left Shep, whom we see in a red ending and a strange tube in his space suit, and on the right the same tube conducting in Rahni eggs, for that those started to submit to Reapers. The picture at the left is shown specially up, that it would be visible better.

Probably just reused assets.

You can't deny that they look fairly similar (eve if the right picture's quality isn't that good).
I think they are also found on the Citadel (saw a video showing it).
But considering the Citadel is Reaper tech as well as the Conduit, it could be from from the Conduit site (especially because it is obviously concrete).
Anyways, this has to be considered.

Modifié par SirLugash, 23 mars 2012 - 10:44 .


#21094
JustAidan

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Schlafmuetzer wrote...

So, first of all, im a big fan of this theory, thumbs up to all the people who came up with it. I sure do hope its true :)

After reading about it and hearing that Bioware will release additional content soon, i asked myself: "How can the game go on if shep dies or gets indoctrinated?"

Well, i came up with an idea. I personally think its really unlikely, but kinda wish its true:
Since Mass Effect 3 has multiplayer, every race on your crew becomes playable from the third person shoulder view. Except for Javik, whose race might, if the rumors are true, be added in the next DLC pack, and EDI
So, all animations needed to make one of your crew members the protagonist are already ingame. What if one of them, who was running to the conduit with you, takes up the final fight against the reapers if Shepard didnt make it?

I know, its highly unlikely, one reason being, that the audio recording needed for a proper epilogue would be overwhelming. Also im not sure if the multiplayer/available protagonist thing makes sense, maybe the transition from squadmate to protagonist would be easier than i think :D

All facts aside, imagine it. I think it would make a pretty cool and different gameplay experience and would probably be a good continuation for 3/4 Endings.

P.S: Sorry for any mistakes or unintelligble gibberish, im from germany and my english probably isnt the best ;)


Heya, yeah this theory is fun to work on.

In regards to making the bad choice and getting indoctrination Mass Effect is Shepard's story so the same thing would happen when you import a savegame from ME2 where Shepard died; he is dead so the game is over. Similar to how not choosing to shoot the Illusive Man ends up getting you killed. I think this is a very nice touch, combat is now not the only way to fail and it doesn't use a silly quick time event.

Epilogues don't have to have audio, text and music or simply music and pictures/drawings would work fine. Baldur's Gate had some quite long epilogues all given in text form with music and I still remember to this day.
".....where hamsters are giants and men become legends" Kudos if you can tell me whose epilogue this is.

Modifié par JustAidan, 23 mars 2012 - 11:01 .


#21095
Flapperrr

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Schlafmuetzer wrote...

So, first of all, im a big fan of this theory, thumbs up to all the people who came up with it. I sure do hope its true :)

After reading about it and hearing that Bioware will release additional content soon, i asked myself: "How can the game go on if shep dies or gets indoctrinated?"

Well, i came up with an idea. I personally think its really unlikely, but kinda wish its true:
Since Mass Effect 3 has multiplayer, every race on your crew becomes playable from the third person shoulder view. Except for Javik, whose race might, if the rumors are true, be added in the next DLC pack, and EDI
So, all animations needed to make one of your crew members the protagonist are already ingame. What if one of them, who was running to the conduit with you, takes up the final fight against the reapers if Shepard didnt make it?

I know, its highly unlikely, one reason being, that the audio recording needed for a proper epilogue would be overwhelming. Also im not sure if the multiplayer/available protagonist thing makes sense, maybe the transition from squadmate to protagonist would be easier than i think :D

All facts aside, imagine it. I think it would make a pretty cool and different gameplay experience and would probably be a good continuation for 3/4 Endings.

P.S: Sorry for any mistakes or unintelligble gibberish, im from germany and my english probably isnt the best ;)


Good idea.:wizard:

#21096
IronSabbath88

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I love how even after TIM kills you if you don't pick the interrupt, he just walks away from the console. Not even interested in controlling the Reapers anymore.

#21097
Denvian

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SirLugash wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Flapperrr wrote...

Probably, it not novelty, but:
Posted Image

At the left Shep, whom we see in a red ending and a strange tube in his space suit, and on the right the same tube conducting in Rahni eggs, for that those started to submit to Reapers. The picture at the left is shown specially up, that it would be visible better.

Probably just reused assets.

You can't deny that they look fairly similar (eve if the right picture's quality isn't that good).
I think they are also found on the Citadel (saw a video showing it).
But considering the Citadel is Reaper tech as well as the Conduit, it could be from from the Conduit site (especially because it is obviously concrete).
Anyways, this has to be considered.


I thought it just looked like a peice of rebar... but I can see what you mean

#21098
Erloeser

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I had a theory about the ending and what 1M1 might possibly signify. It's a little long, so I'll start with the meat of this, and if you're interested you can read deeper.

In musical scoring for a film 1M1 is the annotation used for the very first piece, usually the main title music (1 = First reel M = Music 1 = First Cue. For more info you can google "1M1 cue"). If this is what the developers were going for, then this fits well with the theme that the ending choice is part of an indoctrinated or "mirrored" view. (Alternately it could signify a new beginning/the story coming full circle).

Delving Deeper:

There is a lot of evidence that something odd is going on with the final decision. Whatever may be said about all of the theories floating around, one thing that I feel was definitely an intentional twist was the color coding.

Throughout all 3 games there has always been a very deliberate pattern to the choices you make: 1st choice is the paragon choice, color coded by blue, the 2nd choice (not always there) would be a neutral choice, the 3rd choice is renegade, color coded red.

Here we're given the control the reapers (TIM) option first, which would be the more "renegade" option, and it is color coded blue. Secondly we can unlock the "compromise" option in the middle, color coded green. Last we get the more "paragon", "Anderson" option last which is to destroy the reapers, and it is color coded red. Basically there's 0 chance that the developers suddenly forgot the pattern that they used through 3 games.
Whatever people may speculate, this was done intentionally.

Additionally, when the sequence with the ghost child starts, turn around and walk backwards and you'll see 2 1M1s printed on the low wall back there. The left one is printed "properly" the right one is backwards. Now when you see it mirrored in other places, it's true they might have just gotten a little lazy copy pasting it on either side of a hallway, but here they are in a line on a single wall, meaning that there was a higher chance that someone intentionally mirrored the image. Whatever you think 1M1 stands for, if anything, that in and of itself is interesting.

Other Evidence of "Mirroring":

1) Even if you were a total paragon, upon coming back to the Citadel, you get back some glowing renegade scars.

2)Visually there is a clear "mirror" divide with the whole setting, on the one side you've got the Crucible/Earth forces, on the other you've got the Citadel/Reapers/Ghost Child. You're standing just on the edge of the
latter side. Moreover, you're standing underneath the Citadel tower, "upside down" looking at Earth above.

3) The ghost child's voice is made up of 3 voices: the little boys in the center channel, with male/female Shepherd voices more softly on the side channels, indicating that this may be a reflection of his/her own consciousness.

Wrapping Up, Back to 1M1:

The developers obviously put a lot of work into the music, especially for this installment. In addition to getting a lot of good composers on this thing, and adding a bunch of sound/music Easter eggs which I won't get into, they clearly put a lot of thought into the score. If it's the case that 1M1 is meant here in reference to the musical annotation, then it  fits well with the idea that everything is backwards in that scene, and that the end is the beginning/the beginning is the end. In any event I find it more compelling than the theories that it is supposed to be optics or some sort of pseudo binary. Though of course there is the chance that they were just re-using textures and it means nothing, but that would be no fun.

Thanks.

Modifié par Erloeser, 23 mars 2012 - 11:11 .


#21099
greywardencommander

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Colintastic wrote...

Ok I accept the theory in whole. It's the only thing that makes sense.

Shepard survives the indoctrination, wakes up on Earth... now what? There is still a losing battle being waged in space above and the ground forces have been almost entirely wiped out. Earth has hardly been "re-taken" as the marketing campaign suggests.

Best case scenario, and this is a pretty substantial stretch of the imagination, but Harbinger is dead. Shepard being the first to defeat an indoctrination attempt could have overpowered the mind of the reaper and crushed it in his mind vice. There are still 1000's more.

Indoctrination theory or not, the game hasn't "ended." This is literally the same as the cliffhanger at the end of Pirates of the Caribbean 2 (ZOMG BARBOSA IS ALIVE BUT WE STILL HAVE TO BEAT THE EAST INDIA COMPANY!). I'm going to be very disappointed if I now have to pay for an ending in DLC to a game that didn't end.


We say that the end's still to come because they weren't real and all in Shepard's mind, if planned - free (accounted for in game development budget in otherwords your £40 or whatever's already covered it it's only DLC for impact of getting everyone to wonder if it's really the end or not) because it was the biggest marketing ploy of all (no such thing as bad publicity they say, and it certainly drives interest if the 'real endings' are everybit as amazing as the rest of the game) even if not planned it needs to be free or there would be uproar about 'paying for endings'

If it was planned it would also be announced ASAP after addressing (i.e. at PAX and then announced for the following week for example) because it's going to take more than a few weeks to build a satisfactory DLC if they were genuinely planning this whole charade, if it's this will come out in June or something like that = not planned and whatever they have planned has been thrown together based on the unexpected reaction, but may still be awesome if it uses IT as their 'fix' and gives us the variation in endings we want (I for one welcome the idea of a possible Reaper victory for example so this whole we're unhappy because it's not a happy ending is complete rubbish).

It seems a lot of people's issues with IT is they've somehow got this random idea we think the endings are amazing because of the way they are interpreted with IT,

NO the endings are ONLY amazing if 'real endings based on IT are to come' (disregarding idea of dlc and unfinished product on disk stuff, storywise it would be epic, morally it's pretty bankrupt, even if dlc was free it would be 'unfinished on disk' why not re), in fact if done properly if not intended based on IT the endings would still be amazing

If there are no real endings, and the 'clarity' etc is just a big long statement explaining how brilliant and philosophical their ending was and explained the various plotholes etc. and maybe and epilogue explaining what happens to Joker, EDI, Liara etc that would be AWFUL

We want a real ending and a fix just like most people but our's is an 'alteration' not a change that means not changing the endings as they currently stand (they happened because it's an internal battle of the psyche) which thus makes a fix more plausible (deleting or modifiying current 10 min ending just wouldn't look right unless done properly and that's gonna take a long time)

#21100
Sammuthegreat

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Small point I've not seen mentioned - has anyone else noticed that the relay on Ilos in ME1 and the beam at the end of ME3 are both called the Conduit? Perhaps another re-used memory of Shep's?