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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#21251
Denvian

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Cucobr wrote...

Denvian wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

did you look at the background more closely Cucobr.


yep... jungles...


He meant look at the double planet in the sky, they look the same.  The plant life is simular yes but then so is the double planet and star.  Might be intentional... would not be suprised but who knows.


naaa,,,, it's too common in Mass Effect series.. 


It would be cool if after this whole thing is said and done and if they come out and say, "We planned IT all along".  if they would do a little making of video to point out what is intentional and what it not, "Oily shadows yeah we did that... but I don't know who came up with that idea.... that is just weird"


They could sell it as a DLC! (too soon?)

#21252
nyrocron

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Denvian wrote...

(...)

They could sell it as a DLC! (too soon?)


I would totally pay for that!

#21253
a.m.p

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About the ‘Critical Mission failure. Crucible is destroyed’ thing. Not sure if anyone brought this up yet.

It’s not actually on a timer, it’s a trigger. I’ve tried just standing where the cutscene leaves me for half an hour, nothing happens. But if you do walk all the way up to one option and then change your mind and go back it happens in about five seconds. I’m not a particularly skilled programmer, but isn’t that harder to implement? Were they trying to make some kind of point? Heck, why even make a game over screen in that area if it drops you right back into it?

#21254
Zylenn

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Flapperrr wrote...

Probably, it not novelty, but:
Posted Image

At the left Shep, whom we see in a red ending and a strange tube in his space suit, and on the right the same tube conducting in Rahni eggs, for that those started to submit to Reapers. The picture at the left is shown specially up, that it would be visible better.



That thing in Sheps leg reminds me of the cabels Legion is strapped to within the Geth cruiser.

http://oyster.ignimg...c/Me_3_1319.jpg

#21255
nyrocron

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Yeah, THAT would make sense.

#21256
Denvian

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Zylenn wrote...

Flapperrr wrote...

Probably, it not novelty, but:
Posted Image

At the left Shep, whom we see in a red ending and a strange tube in his space suit, and on the right the same tube conducting in Rahni eggs, for that those started to submit to Reapers. The picture at the left is shown specially up, that it would be visible better.



That thing in Sheps leg reminds me of the cabels Legion is strapped to within the Geth cruiser.

http://oyster.ignimg...c/Me_3_1319.jpg


I still think it is just a piece of rebar...

#21257
Rifneno

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comrade gando wrote...

Not to get too far off topic here, but concerning Bioware's decision making in general: I can understand what they're going for with the false ending and such (making the players feel indoctrinated, just like shepard), but I still don't understand the logic behind photo shopping Tali's face poorly. Just a little side discussion about their decision making and not the actual face itself.


And I don't understand the fans' anger at her picture. So they photoshopped a picture of a real person. What's the big deal? Would you rather they made a picture from scratch that had no detail because they didn't put much time into it? Or that they took time away from the rest of the game just to put a lot of detail into a fake Tali picture with no real life base? This is a pretty petty complaint IMO. You got an attractive picture of her when she could have just as easily had appendages that we don't even have names for. Just because Tali's a sweet girl doesn't mean a completely alien race couldn't be hideous to humans. I've never heard Liara or Samara's fans complain that they were designed off a real human.

greywardencommander wrote...

most of us probably wouldn't notice given the poor layout of the journals ;)


I particularly like how they don't update minor quests. "X on the Citadel is looking for Y. Obtain Y and go talk to X." Have I already collected Y when I was out planet scanning for creds? Hell if I know. The only way to find out is to go check the Citadel for X and talk to them if possible. /sigh

Redbelle wrote...

I'm worried about BW's creative side. Going through another playthrough I found the romance music to be rehashed Dragonage romance music, the decision wheel of ME going into DA2. It's not that those aren't good ideas. It's the wider principal of using solutions from other sources without trying to find new and novel ways of dealing with the problem. Focusing a little less on a use of a one size fits all and more thought and ingenuity wouldn't hurt BW.


Music has never been a strength of western RPGs. That's one of the few areas where jRPGs firmly and decisively dominate. I can't even begin to count how many Final Fantasy tracks I listen to on a regular basis, while there's only a handful of Mass Effect and Dragon Age tracks I even like. And I'm a much bigger fan of ME than I am of any FF. Hell, of all of them combined. "Suicide Mission" from ME2 is the only Bioware track I'd really call outstanding. It made the Omega-4 Mass Relay mission just epic. The collectors weren't that big a deal in the grand scheme. They were mindless pawns. But the music just worked so well it was... incredible. Unfortunately, that's the exception rather than the rule with western RPGs. The story is what makes them feel the way they do. jRPGs tend to rely a lot more on music and its effect on the mood of the player.
... Annnyway, the dialogue wheel is fantastic and more games should use it. I love it. I hope other companies rip it off from BW like everyone ripped off orcs from Tolkien. So no complaints from me that Dragon Age used it. It's one of the few areas where DA2 was better than DAO.

pattywagon wrote...

p.s.: I do believe the indoctrination theory has a lot of merit, but personally I'm displeased if that is true as it feels like the game is incomplete if this was plan all along. I would rather they delayed the game instead of having a false ending for a while until the real one is released.


Too many people are missing the point. It's unlikely that they didn't include the ending so they could delay. If they are still working on the ending, then (IMO) it's probably because they planned from the start to do it after the game was done and released. The actual point of delaying the ending wasn't to get the game out sooner. It was because only by ending the game after the indoctrination choice could they make us think it was real. If we made the wrong choice and got a critical mission failure, we'd just mutter a curse under our breath, reload the last save, and make the right choice. But if the game really stops at that point and there's no continuing, we believe it's real for more than 10 seconds. Then when they finally tell us "here's the rest, the fake ending was a test of indoctrination"... [b]then[/i] it has impact. We actually experienced as close a simulation to indoctrination as they can give us, rather than just another bad trope.

RorickHuon wrote...

I learned something today. See the internet isn't usless thank you kind stranger :D


Mordin: Maw is getting closer!
Wrex: Tell me something I don't know!
Mordin: Metal in truck excellent source of iron for maw's diet!

<3 Mordin

#21258
Chyliss

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Denvian wrote...

Zylenn wrote...

Flapperrr wrote...

Probably, it not novelty, but:
Posted Image

At the left Shep, whom we see in a red ending and a strange tube in his space suit, and on the right the same tube conducting in Rahni eggs, for that those started to submit to Reapers. The picture at the left is shown specially up, that it would be visible better.



That thing in Sheps leg reminds me of the cabels Legion is strapped to within the Geth cruiser.

http://oyster.ignimg...c/Me_3_1319.jpg


I still think it is just a piece of rebar...


Or Shep IS interfacing with the reaper consenses. Posted Image Yeah, yeah, touting my own VR vs dream theory but but why not. LOL

#21259
Denvian

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Rifneno wrote...


Music has never been a strength of western RPGs. That's one of the few areas where jRPGs firmly and decisively dominate. I can't even begin to count how many Final Fantasy tracks I listen to on a regular basis, while there's only a handful of Mass Effect and Dragon Age tracks I even like. And I'm a much bigger fan of ME than I am of any FF. Hell, of all of them combined. "Suicide Mission" from ME2 is the only Bioware track I'd really call outstanding. It made the Omega-4 Mass Relay mission just epic. The collectors weren't that big a deal in the grand scheme. They were mindless pawns. But the music just worked so well it was... incredible. Unfortunately, that's the exception rather than the rule with western RPGs. The story is what makes them feel the way they do. jRPGs tend to rely a lot more on music and its effect on the mood of the player.
... Annnyway, the dialogue wheel is fantastic and more games should use it. I love it. I hope other companies rip it off from BW like everyone ripped off orcs from Tolkien. So no complaints from me that Dragon Age used it. It's one of the few areas where DA2 was better than DAO.


This is a matter of opinion (My opinion and yours)...  I think that the music choices in Mass Effect was really
strong and I think jRPGs music is really corny... I am not saying that I would
actually listen to the soundtrack on its own but I think the music strongly
compliments what is happening in the game.


Of course this is simply preference and opinion
depending on if you prefer jRPGs or Western RPGs because they have a very
different style and approach... I think jRPGs can get away with some things stylistically
that would simply be weird in Western RPGs because your suspension of belief is
at a different level.

Three cheers for heading way off topic!! 

Modifié par Denvian, 24 mars 2012 - 12:38 .


#21260
NikolaiShade

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My 2 cents on the whole endings problem (sorry for my english and if it was already posted).

The game was rushed - sorry to disagree, it could have ended with Shepard at the console, a couple cutscenes and a wall of text. True or not the endings are what they wanted us to see.

The plotholes - after 30+ hours of good storytelling the writers died and somebody else wrote the endings? I don't think so.

The kid - one of the main reasons why I believe there's something wrong in the game (indoctrination or else). The player is lead to believe the kid is seen only by Shepard, so this is what BioWare wanted us to believe.

On the Indoctrination theory specifically, I wondered if the main target of the indoctrination attempt was not Shepard but the player. I choose Synthesys (I know, shame on me if we're right). After five minutes I started to question myself and why I did what Saren wanted to do.

Edit - If (enphasis here) the indoctrination theory is correct I'd add two things: a reference to Saren from Shepard about the Synthesys and the reaper grwl in the breathing scene

Modifié par NikolaiShade, 24 mars 2012 - 12:50 .


#21261
Denvian

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NikolaiShade wrote...

On the Indoctrination theory specifically, I wondered if the main target of the indoctrination attempt was not Shepard but the player. I choose Synthesys (I know, shame on me if we're right). After five minutes I started to question myself and why I did what Saren wanted to do.


I thought the genius of the ending was the player and shepards choice felt one in the same... At some points in the game I was thinking to myself, "Well my shepard would do this".  while at the end it was very much, "DESTROY because I never want to give into the reapers no matter what the cost!!"

I think they did a very good job because they throw the color choices at you and made you really think, "That is the paragon choice but I don't want that one!" Or, "why is that the red renagade choice when that is what I have been trying to accomplish this whole time!".

So the long and short, yes I agree with you.

Modifié par Denvian, 24 mars 2012 - 12:46 .


#21262
nyrocron

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NikolaiShade wrote...

(...)

On the Indoctrination theory specifically, I wondered if the main target of the indoctrination attempt was not Shepard but the player. I choose Synthesys (I know, shame on me if we're right). After five minutes I started to question myself and why I did what Saren wanted to do.

Yes, I have to admit that the same thing happened to me. I was like wtf is happening but just believed the starchild and picked synthesis. Then after I thought about it I realized that I made a choice I (and my Shep) would never have made. If that was intended, then it was just pure genius in my opinion.

#21263
Denvian

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Chyliss wrote...

Denvian wrote...

Zylenn wrote...

Flapperrr wrote...

Probably, it not novelty, but:
Posted Image

At the left Shep, whom we see in a red ending and a strange tube in his space suit, and on the right the same tube conducting in Rahni eggs, for that those started to submit to Reapers. The picture at the left is shown specially up, that it would be visible better.



That thing in Sheps leg reminds me of the cabels Legion is strapped to within the Geth cruiser.

http://oyster.ignimg...c/Me_3_1319.jpg


I still think it is just a piece of rebar...


Or Shep IS interfacing with the reaper consenses. Posted Image Yeah, yeah, touting my own VR vs dream theory but but why not. LOL


See this is why the rest of the communitie's first impression of us is that we are tin foil hat wearing fruits who believe that the moon landing actually was filmed in New Mexico :D

Modifié par Denvian, 24 mars 2012 - 12:49 .


#21264
The_Sloth25

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A bit off topic, I know, but I would have been happy to have had a longer chat with the Illusive Man and had to really be clever about making him keep both me and Anderson alive. It's could have been almost a verbal boss fight, and I know IM is not the big baddy cos Harbinger is, but I still think it could've been cool.

Also IGN just posted an article with the title "Mass Effect 3: New Ending Coming". Not much ambiguity there. It's pretty definate that it won't just be clarification for closure or a couple of cut scenes like some are suggesting.

#21265
Vahilor

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Denvian wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

Normandy crash site vs. Zaeed loyalty mission: http://i.imgur.com/Ls8Qh.jpg
(Pic found on reddit)


Hey that is nifty


Was it not Aite that looked very similar to the crash site planet ?

#21266
Denvian

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The_Sloth25 wrote...

A bit off topic, I know, but I would have been happy to have had a longer chat with the Illusive Man and had to really be clever about making him keep both me and Anderson alive. It's could have been almost a verbal boss fight, and I know IM is not the big baddy cos Harbinger is, but I still think it could've been cool.

Also IGN just posted an article with the title "Mass Effect 3: New Ending Coming". Not much ambiguity there. It's pretty definate that it won't just be clarification for closure or a couple of cut scenes like some are suggesting.


Do we have to do this again!!! 

https://twitter.com/...233534146781186 
 
Straight from Mass Effect twitter and bioware employee.

IGN is full of it. I am not mad at you it just that these articles from penny arcade and IGN really have mislead everyone.

Modifié par Denvian, 24 mars 2012 - 12:57 .


#21267
The_Sloth25

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Denvian wrote...

Do we have to do this again!!! 

https://twitter.com/...233534146781186 
 
Straight from Mass Effect twitter

IGN is full of it. I am not mad at you it just that these articles really from penny arcade and IGN really have mislead everyone.


Woops. Get most pretty much all my gaming news from IGN.  Won't make that mistake again :)

Modifié par The_Sloth25, 24 mars 2012 - 12:56 .


#21268
Denvian

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The_Sloth25 wrote...

Denvian wrote...

Do we have to do this again!!! 

https://twitter.com/...233534146781186 
 
Straight from Mass Effect twitter

IGN is full of it. I am not mad at you it just that these articles from penny arcade and IGN really have mislead everyone.


Woops :)  Get most pretty much all my gaming news from IGN.  Won't make that mistake again :)


No worries... I had that sinking feeling when I first read that article and I believed them to.

Modifié par Denvian, 24 mars 2012 - 12:58 .


#21269
Vahilor

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But not changing the ending still gives the possibility to extend the endig ^^ to give more closure =)

#21270
Rifneno

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Denvian wrote...

This is a matter of
opinion...  I think that the music choices in Mass Effect was really
strong and I think jRPGs music is really corny... I am not saying that I would
actually listen to the soundtrack on its own but I think the music strongly
compliments what is happening in the game.


Well it certainly seems to be a popular "opinion" as I haven't heard of any western RPG being so popular they have full orchestra concerts (in the United States no less, not just Japan), getting played at the frickin' Olympics, hiring major pop stars and subsequently selling half a million CD singles with the song you used them for (followed by an award that was intended for "real" music)...  There's a reason that the OST for Mass Effect comes with the Collector's Edition and Final Fantasy prints a 4-disc set of theirs and successfully sells them for $50 a pop.  Quick question, what's the most well known and influential track in gaming music history?  If you said anything except "One Winged Angel", you're just plain wrong.

Look, I'm a big fan of wRPGs.  I wouldn't be here otherwise.  But saying jRPGs don't do music better is just lol.  It's not a bad thing to admit there's one area where "the other side" does better.

#21271
Denvian

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Vahilor wrote...

But not changing the ending still gives the possibility to extend the endig ^^ to give more closure =)


There are many options going forward and I am pretty confident that bioware will come through for us... Once again I am pretty sure I am in the minority for thinking this.

Modifié par Denvian, 24 mars 2012 - 01:05 .


#21272
UrgentArchengel

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My new opinion on the endings:

Indoctrination Theory was never planned. I bet some developer threw this stuff in to help save themselves. The ending was either really rushed, or they just didn't give a s***. I have seen enough evidence of where the ending came from, and they just stole some ideas and mixed it together. It's not art, nor their artistic integrity or whatever. They plainly ran out of time and said, "F*** it, let's just do whatever and hope it works.

#21273
NikolaiShade

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Vahilor wrote...

But not changing the ending still gives the possibility to extend the endig ^^ to give more closure =)


Thechnically speaking, IF the Indoctrination Theory is real, we never saw the end of Mass Effect 3 but just a conclusion, the epilogue will come later.

#21274
JustAidan

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The_Sloth25 wrote...

Denvian wrote...

Do we have to do this again!!! 

https://twitter.com/...233534146781186 
 
Straight from Mass Effect twitter

IGN is full of it. I am not mad at you it just that these articles really from penny arcade and IGN really have mislead everyone.


Woops. Get most pretty much all my gaming news from IGN.  Won't make that mistake again :)


IGN are actually pretty bad, this fiasco and Forbes articles have really highlighted how different gaming 'journalists' treat game fans. I have seen so many articles insulting the "fans" and being "entitled". Not considering the IT here but customers have a right to get upset with products they buy, even taking the "artistic" argument we are then the art patrons, as if during the Renaissance period Artists didn't work under commission for their patrons :)

#21275
Tr0n01d

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Rifneno wrote...

Denvian wrote...

This is a matter of
opinion...  I think that the music choices in Mass Effect was really
strong and I think jRPGs music is really corny... I am not saying that I would
actually listen to the soundtrack on its own but I think the music strongly
compliments what is happening in the game.


Well it certainly seems to be a popular "opinion" as I haven't heard of any western RPG being so popular they have full orchestra concerts (in the United States no less, not just Japan), getting played at the frickin' Olympics, hiring major pop stars and subsequently selling half a million CD singles with the song you used them for (followed by an award that was intended for "real" music)...  There's a reason that the OST for Mass Effect comes with the Collector's Edition and Final Fantasy prints a 4-disc set of theirs and successfully sells them for $50 a pop.  Quick question, what's the most well known and influential track in gaming music history?  If you said anything except "One Winged Angel", you're just plain wrong.

Look, I'm a big fan of wRPGs.  I wouldn't be here otherwise.  But saying jRPGs don't do music better is just lol.  It's not a bad thing to admit there's one area where "the other side" does better.


I beg to differ, the most influential and known track in vg history is :



followed by :



sorry mate but i've never heard of "one winged angel"

:P