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[greywardencommander]

The harassing was from March 2nd BEFORE release...they expected people to be annoyed because they deliberately made us so.

Noone compared CoD to Mass Effect it was just a very recent example of 'not selling the complete game' which was the point not that ME is anything like CoD. If that's your only pick up of the entire thing then you're deliberately ignoring what else everyone's said re. complete game or not and missed the point we've been saying. ME2: Arrival - DLC technically the end of ME2 as it's directly referenced and influenced ME3 (grounded on earth etc)

They said we'd hear something in April but Mass Effect had something planned for Pax anyway (Dragon Age & DA3 too) something that requires a lot of planning an ME3 DLC e.g. Take back Omega isn't a PAX worthy announcement in terms of resources etc meaning if planned the whole point was to be announced at Pax. Might be a new game to be fair an ME4 but that would be odd so quickly after ME3 particularly now with the outcry ME4 or eqiuivalent = bad move.

Any fix to the current endings, e.g. the complete change of the end would take a lot of time and cost, IT (planned or otherwise) is by far the easiest method of correcting the endings by expanding using the idea the last 10 mins was hallucination because of indoctrination or whatever, or in the case of it being planned it was always going to be the 'clarification and expansion' of the current endings anyway meaning the PR statements and tweets etc are just as bit a 'IT could be real' as a 'they mucked up and are going to fix it or expand on the real endings in terms of this is what happened to mean Joker got away etc etc'

[Denvian]

bigstig wrote...

Also the incomplete argument doesn't hold up in modern media.

Just look at recent cinema -> Harry Potter and The Deathly Hallows Part 1 then next year came part 2
Same with Twilight. One story 2 movies
Or going back in years the original Italian Job it ended on a cliff hanger - literally.

Did anyone demand their ticket money back because it was an incomplete film? When they bought the DVD did they ask for their money back as it was only half a film?

So to complain that it is incomplete is the equivalent of complaining that favourite TV show finished for the season mid way through the plot. That's the point it is supposed to generate interest in what comes next.

Mass Effect 3 had an ending, whether you liked them or not it had an ending it wasn't incomplete. You can also guarantee that there was going to be DLC before the game was released does this make the retail copy uncomplete.

What about the biggest selling game of all time Call of Duty, they ship a game and then charge for extra content. Now they are even brazen enough to ask for payment in advance in the form of Elite. Knowing this fact would you consider COD an incomplete game?

Hey I would be really happy if there was a Mass effect 3 part 2!  I really want to see the end but I don't want it to be the end... funny how that works can't have you cake and eat it too.

[MassEffectFan11]

bigstig wrote...

@MassEffectFan11

I wasn't really comparing COD to Mass Effect in that sense, I personally can't stand COD. I think it's the same game reskinned each year for a higher price but thats beside the point.

The point I was trying to make, especially this year where COD was sold with the Elite subscription which made it$60 plus another $40(I think) for the elite subscription. The DLC is spread throughout the year but it's essentially the same argument.

The game on the disk is not the full product, if you want everything you will need to shell out for the subscription. Despite this COD is still the highest selling game of all time. Where is the level of hatred for that? Where is the demand that the content should be on the disk? There are a few who would complain but for the most part people accepted it.

I personally don't accept the it's not a full game argument. I hope my rambling made some sense for you

Ah, I just misunderstood you, then. From what I've seen, there actually is a fair bit of hate for COD not having all that stuff on the disk in the first place, but I think that Mass Effect fans are making that argument because Bioware has up until now shown that they'll typically release enough to satisfy on the disk and so aren't used to something like this, while COD players have become conditioned to accept that they're never going to get dick without shelling out an extra $50 or so.

[Stigweird85]

@someone else

1. Perhaps, or it could just be nervous investors i.e. Rules may have been slack when there was not a product to sell but when the eyes of the gaming world was on Bioware they had to make sure they were doing everything to eradicate the nasty element that had made a home here.

2. Devils Advocate - The destroy option with high EMS could be described as the "best" ending so wouldn't read too much into that

3.As I said the press would be tin foil hat time. Then again it is only needs to be 1 or 2 people involved. I.e. The specific authors of negative pieces.

4. There is definitely more to it that we know. Why have both shep voices record the godchild dialogue, why invert colours. Why make include aspects of the shadow broker ship in the citadel. You can argue that assets will be reused and things can be named weirdly but why go to the effort of getting two actors to record dialogue. I suspect both Jenifer Hale and Mark Meer do multiple parts in the games but it can't be an accident that each voice comes over a separate audio channel.

I just want there to be more Mass Effect in any guise. It has become somewhat of an obsession. I will quite happily buy anything and will order Mass Effect 4 when it's announcedc. I even have one of project triforces M8 Replicas on order

[SpaceSphinx]

I've just finished a playthrough of the game and I'd like to add a couple more arguments in favor of the theory that i didn't see in the video or in the OP.
After you open the Citadel arms and have that last chat with Anderson, when admiral Hacket contacts you Shepard is barely conscious and struggles to crawl to the command console before he gets lifted up. He can't even stand up and access the controls. However when he encounters the "child" not only can he walk and carry a conversation with him, but when you start shooting at the cable thing to trigger the destroy ending, Shepard actually stands up straight and shoots like he was all fine and not on the brink of death.
Sorry if someone else already pointed it out, but i didn't want to read all of the 800+ pages.

[Stigweird85]

I meant to say whoever posted that community video, good one.

I will happily admit there is a little of that in my faith of Bioware

[Frynne]

Also, note how when Shepard supposedly arrives on the citadel, in the hallway with the bodies, all of them are Human, and Shepard specifically mentions this, AKA: The people who died on Earth.

[greywardencommander]

SpaceSphinx wrote...

I've just finished a playthrough of the game and I'd like to add a couple more arguments in favor of the theory that i didn't see in the video or in the OP.
After you open the Citadel arms and have that last chat with Anderson, when admiral Hacket contacts you Shepard is barely conscious and struggles to crawl to the command console before he gets lifted up. He can't even stand up and access the controls. However when he encounters the "child" not only can he walk and carry a conversation with him, but when you start shooting at the cable thing to trigger the destroy ending, Shepard actually stands up straight and shoots like he was all fine and not on the brink of death.
Sorry if someone else already pointed it out, but i didn't want to read all of the 800+ pages.

Yeah it's been pointed out, less so you're fine come the conversation compared to barely able to stand up to access it and can then walk and talk almost normally. The Destroy bit where he stands up in defiance etc compared to the 'suicidal' nature of the other two is one of the smaller bits pointed out, but important nonetheless and for many was one of the first 'off things' along with the switch of colours & people re. paragon and renegade and the Shepard Breathing scene - Those three things alone were enough to convince people something's odd about the last 10 mins. That's just when you first play before even being presented with all the stuff others have that indicate IT (I won't call it evidence but it's compelling information nonetheless)

[Terran235]

I bet it's going to be an expansion.

[someone else]

@bigstig

1- maybe just coinkydink but they sure knew what fan reaction would be...

2 - Not really - distinction without a difference if there is no consequence to sheps survival

3 - I alway had trouble keeping my tinfoil hat straight

4 - my point exactly

...and like I said earlier, if my shep has a breath in her body, you can bet on more ME...

gotta go to work - back late this eve - been fun, keep the faith.

[Stigweird85]

Denvian wrote...

bigstig wrote...

Also the incomplete argument doesn't hold up in modern media.

Just look at recent cinema -> Harry Potter and The Deathly Hallows Part 1 then next year came part 2
Same with Twilight. One story 2 movies
Or going back in years the original Italian Job it ended on a cliff hanger - literally.

Did anyone demand their ticket money back because it was an incomplete film? When they bought the DVD did they ask for their money back as it was only half a film?

So to complain that it is incomplete is the equivalent of complaining that favourite TV show finished for the season mid way through the plot. That's the point it is supposed to generate interest in what comes next.

Mass Effect 3 had an ending, whether you liked them or not it had an ending it wasn't incomplete. You can also guarantee that there was going to be DLC before the game was released does this make the retail copy uncomplete.

What about the biggest selling game of all time Call of Duty, they ship a game and then charge for extra content. Now they are even brazen enough to ask for payment in advance in the form of Elite. Knowing this fact would you consider COD an incomplete game?

Hey I would be really happy if there was a Mass effect 3 part 2!  I really want to see the end but I don't want it to be the end... funny how that works can't have you cake and eat it too.

I'm the same I will be ordered Mass Effect 4, 5, 6 the day they become available. I will probably have to buy a new console/pc but I'm cool with that. It would be a sad day to see the end of Shep and his companions but the universe is so diverse you could go anywhere, do anything.

The final words in the stategy guide are most revealing with regards to this(I'm paraphrasing here)

The Mass Effect trilogy was Shepards story, but there are many more stores to tell

[Sammuthegreat]

Something that occurred to me that has no doubt been posted already - although it might be a new way of looking at what we already knew.

It's been repeatedly stated by BioWare that they won't officially discuss the endings until there's been time for more people to complete the game. If the game were completely finished, as intended, why would this matter? If that were the case, it's not like they were going to change the ending anyway, in which case it doesn't matter how many people had finished it; either way the only "discussion" there would be would be BioWare saying "that's your lot."

Surely the fact that they're waiting till everyone, even in countries where the release was later, has had a chance to see the endings as they stand, shows that they want as many people as possible to get the full effect of the indoctrination twist. Picture this:

New Player A picks up Mass Effect 3 a few weeks after release. BioWare, since release, have brought out the DLC that finishes the game, post-indoctrination-scene. For New Player A, the indoctrination scene has no particular impact, since the game continues immediately from the Starchild scene into the proper endgame. The indoctrination is immediately revealed, and BioWare's clever plot twist is near enough completely wasted on the player.

I think BioWare are waiting until as many people as possible have seen the current endings, to maximise the global effect of revealing the indoctrination twist. It's the only way I can make sense of BioWare saying they want to wait "until more people have completed ME3" before discussing it openly.

Plus, of course, there's this.

P.S. Sorry if this didn't make a huge amount of sense, I'm a bit drunk. Hopefully you can figure out what I mean though.

Modifié par Sammuthegreat, 24 mars 2012 - 10:03 .

[crimsontotem]

pitchfork and torches are ready... I am just waiting until PAX...

IMHO, Indoc theory coveres most of the plotholes and BW is not stupid to overlook this....

[Stigweird85]

Damn that is very interesting.

That is either as close to confirmation as we are going to get before it's official or she just likes to tease us.

[nyrocron]

@Sammuthegreat: This would also perfectly fit the statement from the final hours app about the problems figuring out the In-Game-Mechanic for indoctrination. They found the perfect solution.

Modifié par nyrocron, 24 mars 2012 - 10:07 .

[Terran235]

bigstig wrote...

Denvian wrote...

bigstig wrote...

Also the incomplete argument doesn't hold up in modern media.

Just look at recent cinema -> Harry Potter and The Deathly Hallows Part 1 then next year came part 2
Same with Twilight. One story 2 movies
Or going back in years the original Italian Job it ended on a cliff hanger - literally.

Did anyone demand their ticket money back because it was an incomplete film? When they bought the DVD did they ask for their money back as it was only half a film?

So to complain that it is incomplete is the equivalent of complaining that favourite TV show finished for the season mid way through the plot. That's the point it is supposed to generate interest in what comes next.

Mass Effect 3 had an ending, whether you liked them or not it had an ending it wasn't incomplete. You can also guarantee that there was going to be DLC before the game was released does this make the retail copy uncomplete.

What about the biggest selling game of all time Call of Duty, they ship a game and then charge for extra content. Now they are even brazen enough to ask for payment in advance in the form of Elite. Knowing this fact would you consider COD an incomplete game?

Hey I would be really happy if there was a Mass effect 3 part 2!  I really want to see the end but I don't want it to be the end... funny how that works can't have you cake and eat it too.

I'm the same I will be ordered Mass Effect 4, 5, 6 the day they become available. I will probably have to buy a new console/pc but I'm cool with that. It would be a sad day to see the end of Shep and his companions but the universe is so diverse you could go anywhere, do anything.

The final words in the stategy guide are most revealing with regards to this(I'm paraphrasing here)

The Mass Effect trilogy was Shepards story, but there are many more stores to tell

They have said many times shepards story is done. If they add an expansion, it will still be part of this trilogy. When a new mass effect triolgy is started, i doubt it's going to have to do with shepard at all. Maybe cameo appearances?

[samuraix87]

was it just me or did the presidum seem to have moved to the front of the citadel when you one it and does the crucible dock from the front or the back of the citadel

[Frynne]

And during the final talk with the Illusive Man, if you choose the first renegade choice, Shepard will say something like "Why are you wasting your time with us, when you could control the Reapers?" And the Illusive Man's reply is a pretty big hint:

"Because... I need you to believe..."

[greywardencommander]

Sammuthegreat wrote...

Something that occurred to me that has no doubt been posted already - although it might be a new way of looking at what we already knew.

It's been repeatedly stated by BioWare that they won't officially discuss the endings until there's been time for more people to complete the game. If the game were completely finished, as intended, why would this matter? If that were the case, it's not like they were going to change the ending anyway, in which case it doesn't matter how many people had finished it; either way the only "discussion" there would be would be BioWare saying "that's your lot."

Surely the fact that they're waiting till everyone, even in countries where the release was later, has had a chance to see the endings as they stand, shows that they want as many people as possible to get the full effect of the indoctrination twist. Picture this:

New Player A picks up Mass Effect 3 a few weeks after release. BioWare, since release, have brought out the DLC that finishes the game, post-indoctrination-scene. For New Player A, the indoctrination scene has no particular impact, since the game continues immediately from the Starchild scene into the proper endgame. The indoctrination is immediately revealed, and BioWare's clever plot twist is near enough completely wasted on the player.

I think BioWare are waiting until as many people as possible have seen the current endings, to maximise the global effect of revealing the indoctrination twist. It's the only way I can make sense of BioWare saying they want to wait "until more people have completed ME3" before discussing it openly.

Plus, of course, there's this.

P.S. Sorry if this didn't make a huge amount of sense, I'm a bit drunk. Hopefully you can figure out what I mean though.

that's the point I made. On twitter etc they explicitly said 'want to discuss but no spoilers' yet at similar times the same person (Jessica btw) was replying to people talking about Mordin's death (for example) - that's a spoiler for people who hadn't played it to a certain point yet.

So it comes to this, why are they happy to discuss the game with pretty big spoilers, e.g. your crew's fates, but not the endings until enough people have played? Simple they want as many as people as possible to APPRECIATE the twist! I can think of no other reason, if they changed the endings like you say that wouldn't affect the new player, if anything wouldn't it be better because they wouldn't 'suffer' the endings as they are?

I still believe that's why they hold the 'clarification and explain' lines rather than saying they'll change it. Why? It was their intention in the first place...

[SanoBub]

Maybe they'll just cut in some "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" audio when Shepard gets hit by the beam to make the whole thing a bit more obvious to everyone 

Modifié par SanoBub, 24 mars 2012 - 10:11 .

[greywardencommander]

Frynne wrote...

And during the final talk with the Illusive Man, if you choose the first renegade choice, Shepard will say something like "Why are you wasting your time with us, when you could control the Reapers?" And the Illusive Man's reply is a pretty big hint:

"Because... I need you to believe..."

odd given previous discussion with him in the game he said the complete opposite...

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Sammuthegreat wrote...

Something that occurred to me that has no doubt been posted already - although it might be a new way of looking at what we already knew.

It's been repeatedly stated by BioWare that they won't officially discuss the endings until there's been time for more people to complete the game. If the game were completely finished, as intended, why would this matter? If that were the case, it's not like they were going to change the ending anyway, in which case it doesn't matter how many people had finished it; either way the only "discussion" there would be would be BioWare saying "that's your lot."

Surely the fact that they're waiting till everyone, even in countries where the release was later, has had a chance to see the endings as they stand, shows that they want as many people as possible to get the full effect of the indoctrination twist. Picture this:

New Player A picks up Mass Effect 3 a few weeks after release. BioWare, since release, have brought out the DLC that finishes the game, post-indoctrination-scene. For New Player A, the indoctrination scene has no particular impact, since the game continues immediately from the Starchild scene into the proper endgame. The indoctrination is immediately revealed, and BioWare's clever plot twist is near enough completely wasted on the player.

I think BioWare are waiting until as many people as possible have seen the current endings, to maximise the global effect of revealing the indoctrination twist. It's the only way I can make sense of BioWare saying they want to wait "until more people have completed ME3" before discussing it openly.

Plus, of course, there's this.

P.S. Sorry if this didn't make a huge amount of sense, I'm a bit drunk. Hopefully you can figure out what I mean though.

Exactly the reaction to the ending right now is huge, if it is revealed that we were all (almost all) played in those final moments it will be enormous. Handled right it will be the biggest plottwist ever conceived in gaming history eclipsing the Revan reveal and anything else by a long shot. It would be massive.

And I hope it will be that massive

[Alex_Dur4and]

Hello everyone.

Ok! I've always found the ending too strange to be true. I made my research and did my own analysis of the ending in all possible ways. And I am now ready to make a stand...

I am 100% convinced in indoctrination attempt!!!

There! I said it and you can laugh at me all you like if it's not.

[Stigweird85]

@Terran235

I know, but they have also made it clear that Mass Effect 3 will not be the end of the franchise.

I would take the MMO but I doubt they would launch another MMO directly against themselves. The question is where would it go from here. Bioware would need a solution that keeps the relays in tact(The IT would allow this) After all the whole franchise is named after the technology in those realys.

[Frynne]

AND after watching the confrontation again, almost everything the Illusive Man says, can apply to Shepard, ergo, he represents Shepard'ds 'Bad Side' for lack of a better term