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Most people here really want to discuss the topic and not just hate on anything. Any pro and contra arguments are welcome.MassEffected555 wrote...
Hi guys, I never posted here before but I wanted to thank the people that answered my thread and didn't try to derail it. It was the Shiala letter one.
So Thank You to those who answered (and still are) with out derailing it.
Modifié par nyrocron, 24 mars 2012 - 11:45 .
bigstig wrote...
greywardencommander wrote...
greywardencommander wrote...
My main thoughts that have nothing to do with any of the clues really, other than one the Final Hours App does nothing for me except suggest that IT is true. It says explicitly the scene they talk about was scrapped because of a GAMEPLAY MECHANIC, i.e. not because of the idea. Why would they dismiss the entire concept when it's clearly important to them to have Shepard overcome indoctrination (ME3's Ilos and Omega Relay, i.e. doing the 'impossible')
So to have people say this disproves the theory, rubbish it more or less says 'they couldn't do the in game mechanic so they extended it to the player' we are Shepard, s/he is the vessel of how we see the universe.
From a psychological perspective these are my ideas:
He doesn't realise he's being indoctrinated so we don't...not until we realise (i.e. post-game) do we see the fact that we were being indoctrinated all along, if we realise in game (e.g. something's up with this) so does Shepard and he becomes defiant and chooses destroy.
I'll explain why, Shepard is your vessel, the most engaging and immersive vessel in gaming history. You only see what Shepard sees, hear what Shepard hears, feels (emotive in this case) what Shepard feels. You
won't see you're being indoctrinated because Shepard doesn't.
Not until the end - this is crucial to have the impact they want.
The two main things about the endings is enough to show this, it's so obviously wrong the TIM - being Control and Paragon (a renegade character), Synthesis = Saren and Destroy is Renegade and is your plan
all along represented by Anderson a Paragon character and your mentor with the same ideology. That's odd in itself and is supposed to be enough to show the gamer even if they haven't picked up on all the subtle hints already outlined in this theory. I.e. even if you're not paying attention enough, the ending is enough to make you go blimey this is just wrong.
If you (and thus Shepard) realise you are being indoctrinated you select destroy and are rewarded with Shepard breathing. If you don't realise (like Shepard) you choose Control or Synthesis and succumb (both you and
Shepard) to the indoctrination.
Once you realise you've been indoctrinted (like Shepard) you suddenly realise all the things that should have been so obvious before (like in this thread) e.g. the child, the dreams, the headaches, the growls, the humming, all the in game conversations such as Javik saying the VI didn't notice the 'sleeping agents', Thane's poem, the fact the final 10 mins is based on Shepard's memories, the whole 10 mins full stop, conversations with your crew making out something's different about you and they're worried, the Prothean VI shutting down after a few conversations we assume it's because of Kai Leng could be because of us etc. All the clues are there but we ignore them assuming they're meaning something else at the time UNTIL WE LOOK AGAIN IN A NEW LIGHT and thus Shepard remains defiant and chooses destroy.
The way the options are presented are odd as well. Destroy first, it's what Shepard wants but throw in the Geth, Relays and himself as suffering to steer himself away from that option. Second option - what the Reapers
want him to do like TIM so they can control you select control and merge with the reapers (in reality they will control you, just like with TIM, his 'yes' when Shepard asks if they will control the reapers is very subtley a hesitation, why hesitate? because it's not true). Then he provides the magical third option, a compromise, merge synthetic and organic, this in reality is just merging with the Reapers just like Saren who until you show him otherwise thought synthesis was a good thing because it was neither control or destroy, a huge hint).
This is basic psychology, present the options using what they want first but make it so it seems like a bad choice, give your option and when they're still not convinced give them the magical compromise that really makes you happier than the other person because the person changed their mind and won't go with the option you don't want. Simple psychology.
Put it this way, indoctrination is subliminal messaging and making people susceptible to influence and suggestion (just like in the codex). Harbinger can't outright control you, no indoctrination does that not until you become a husk, Saren says you have to keep your mind or you're useless as an ally. Harbinger has to do the only thing he can, make you susceptible to the idea that destroying the Reapers is wrong so he veers you away from that and if you still won't accept control of the reapers because it's wrong he gives you his magic 'compromise' which in reality just makes you just as easy to influence to do what he wants (just like Saren with Sovereign). Indoctrination isn't outright control, never has been (in Mass Effect or in real life), it's impossible until they become husks (or willing husks in terms of collectors, assuming control etc).
In real world terms:
Someone else pointed out this isn't pinned under fan fiction - odd in itself.
In real world terms, EA lose nothing keeping the speculation going, tweets to this thread, cryptic clues etc that all's not what it seems.
if it was true the 'clarification content' is based on IT so already budgeted for.
People who traded their games in might still be inclined to get it again and have their fath restored. Most probably kept their games in the belief that Bioware had a trick up their sleeve because the 10 mins just didn't make sense.
'no such thing as bad publicity' they all say.
I would bet after the reveal (if true) it would go down in media, entertainment and more importantly gaming history. If nothing says what the twist was just that it was beautiful, amazing and brilliantly executed people otherwise not bothered would maybe go and buy all three games to find out just what the fuss was.
People who love the series, and thus the twist continue to invest in the series in new dlc and other merchandise, short term loss, long term gain.
Come on guys I put a lot of thought in to that essay a comment saying 'nice thoughts' would be welcomed :innocent:
I didn't comment on this as I'm sure I've commented on it when you posted the thoughts individually earlier on in this thread
Plus it's getting late(at least in the UK and I'm about to lose an hour when the clocks go forward so my mind isn't all here - oh and my xbox just said that my CE copy of Mass Effect 3 was unreadble so I am a little preoccupied at the moment
nyrocron wrote...
Most people here really want to discuss the topic and not just hate on anything. Any pro and contra arguments are welcome.MassEffected555 wrote...
Hi guys, I never posted here before but I wanted to thank the people that answered my thread and didn't try to derail it. It was the Shiala letter one.
So Thank You to those who answered (and still are) with out derailing it.
njfluffy19 wrote...
nyrocron wrote...
Most people here really want to discuss the topic and not just hate on anything. Any pro and contra arguments are welcome.MassEffected555 wrote...
Hi guys, I never posted here before but I wanted to thank the people that answered my thread and didn't try to derail it. It was the Shiala letter one.
So Thank You to those who answered (and still are) with out derailing it.
Could you link it? I'm curious to see what the thread was about.
MassEffected555 wrote...
Hi guys, I never posted here before but I wanted to thank the people that answered my thread and didn't try to derail it. It was the Shiala letter one.
So Thank You to those who answered (and still are) with out derailing it.
ZerebusPrime wrote...
Regarding the strength of the indoctrination process... did anyone else notice that both Shiala and Rana Thanoptis were fully indoctrinated by the events of ME3? The latter goes out with guns blazing in a news article, IIRC. The former says that she has no doubt that she is indoctrinated as she can hear the Reapers in her head, but the Thorian spores are overriding it for the moment.
This doesn't bode well for Shepard if he is in the indoctrination process.
To paraphrase a certain grey warden regarding hearing archdemon's call, I think the Reapers need to die. Soon.
greywardencommander wrote...
ZerebusPrime wrote...
Regarding the strength of the indoctrination process... did anyone else notice that both Shiala and Rana Thanoptis were fully indoctrinated by the events of ME3? The latter goes out with guns blazing in a news article, IIRC. The former says that she has no doubt that she is indoctrinated as she can hear the Reapers in her head, but the Thorian spores are overriding it for the moment.
This doesn't bode well for Shepard if he is in the indoctrination process.
To paraphrase a certain grey warden regarding hearing archdemon's call, I think the Reapers need to die. Soon.
he mind melded with her, I think that means to some extent he could have a tolerance
ZerebusPrime wrote...
greywardencommander wrote...
ZerebusPrime wrote...
Regarding the strength of the indoctrination process... did anyone else notice that both Shiala and Rana Thanoptis were fully indoctrinated by the events of ME3? The latter goes out with guns blazing in a news article, IIRC. The former says that she has no doubt that she is indoctrinated as she can hear the Reapers in her head, but the Thorian spores are overriding it for the moment.
This doesn't bode well for Shepard if he is in the indoctrination process.
To paraphrase a certain grey warden regarding hearing archdemon's call, I think the Reapers need to die. Soon.
he mind melded with her, I think that means to some extent he could have a tolerance
Eh... Shepard has mind melded with a lot of things.
Modifié par greywardencommander, 25 mars 2012 - 12:11 .
estebanus wrote...
I just noticed something in the final chamber after having replayed the ending. Don't know if it means anything but I'll say it anyway:
When you fire your gun in the final chamber, there is an echo. One would assume this to be normal, and it actually would be, but what really sounded off was the sound of the echo.
IMO, it doesn't sound like the echo that would emanate from the gun that we have experienced earlier in the game, for example the ancient ruins on Tuchanka.
This echo from the gun sounds like the recurring sound of a person. It sounds like the echo of a screaming voice. Is it possible that it could be Shepard's subconscious screaming out that something is wrong in the form of a gunshot?
Notice how Shepard lets the gun fall in the control an synthesis endings. the way he/she lets them fall seems to have a certain air of fatality, of giving up around them don't they? This could possibly be a hint at Shepard giving in to indoctrination.
Just something I thought worthy of pointing out!
Could have sworn i heard something like a shout of pain/anger in time with each shot. However having replayed that bit i'm not 100% sure
Wounded_Wolf wrote...
estebanus wrote...
I just noticed something in the final chamber after having replayed the ending. Don't know if it means anything but I'll say it anyway:
When you fire your gun in the final chamber, there is an echo. One would assume this to be normal, and it actually would be, but what really sounded off was the sound of the echo.
IMO, it doesn't sound like the echo that would emanate from the gun that we have experienced earlier in the game, for example the ancient ruins on Tuchanka.
This echo from the gun sounds like the recurring sound of a person. It sounds like the echo of a screaming voice. Is it possible that it could be Shepard's subconscious screaming out that something is wrong in the form of a gunshot?
Notice how Shepard lets the gun fall in the control an synthesis endings. the way he/she lets them fall seems to have a certain air of fatality, of giving up around them don't they? This could possibly be a hint at Shepard giving in to indoctrination.
Just something I thought worthy of pointing out!
Yeah well spotted and I actually posted something about this earlier
estebanus wrote...
Wounded_Wolf wrote...
estebanus wrote...
I just noticed something in the final chamber after having replayed the ending. Don't know if it means anything but I'll say it anyway:
When you fire your gun in the final chamber, there is an echo. One would assume this to be normal, and it actually would be, but what really sounded off was the sound of the echo.
IMO, it doesn't sound like the echo that would emanate from the gun that we have experienced earlier in the game, for example the ancient ruins on Tuchanka.
This echo from the gun sounds like the recurring sound of a person. It sounds like the echo of a screaming voice. Is it possible that it could be Shepard's subconscious screaming out that something is wrong in the form of a gunshot?
Notice how Shepard lets the gun fall in the control an synthesis endings. the way he/she lets them fall seems to have a certain air of fatality, of giving up around them don't they? This could possibly be a hint at Shepard giving in to indoctrination.
Just something I thought worthy of pointing out!
Yeah well spotted and I actually posted something about this earlier
I played the ending through with my female Shepard, and the qun's echo seemed a little like the voice of a woman.
I'm gonna try it with my male Shepard now, see if the echo sounds different.
Modifié par greywardencommander, 25 mars 2012 - 12:39 .
Intensity Penguin wrote...
I do believe in the IT and, hopefully, it was BioWare's plan all along. In fact, perhaps they leaked it themselves to control the magnitude of negative reactions to the ending. But one thing I don't understand is, when does Shepard become indoctrinated? He certainly isn't when talking to the Prothean VI on Thessia, as it would recognize him as being indoctrinated, as it did with Kai Leng. Or perhaps his indoctrination is hidden or subdued somehow. Any answers or thoughts?
Modifié par yagaelvin, 25 mars 2012 - 12:41 .
yagaelvin wrote...
Intensity Penguin wrote...
I do believe in the IT and, hopefully, it was BioWare's plan all along. In fact, perhaps they leaked it themselves to control the magnitude of negative reactions to the ending. But one thing I don't understand is, when does Shepard become indoctrinated? He certainly isn't when talking to the Prothean VI on Thessia, as it would recognize him as being indoctrinated, as it did with Kai Leng. Or perhaps his indoctrination is hidden or subdued somehow. Any answers or thoughts?
Honestly, I really wouldn't be surprised that if this was truly the plan then Bioware leaked on the theory themselves and that Acavyos (the Youtuber who did the IT video) was actually someone from Bioware
Henioo wrote...
I just had a thought.
What if all, or most, of ME3 was a one big dream or something? I really do not want to believe that, but what made me even think of that were the females. Specifically, the females of species Shepard hasn't seen in ME 1 and ME 2. The female salarian and female krogan look more or less the same as males, with just the head covered. Now, this might just be BW's laziness, I fully understand.
But, more crazier pros and cons out there, innit?
greywardencommander wrote...
yagaelvin wrote...
Intensity Penguin wrote...
I do believe in the IT and, hopefully, it was BioWare's plan all along. In fact, perhaps they leaked it themselves to control the magnitude of negative reactions to the ending. But one thing I don't understand is, when does Shepard become indoctrinated? He certainly isn't when talking to the Prothean VI on Thessia, as it would recognize him as being indoctrinated, as it did with Kai Leng. Or perhaps his indoctrination is hidden or subdued somehow. Any answers or thoughts?
Honestly, I really wouldn't be surprised that if this was truly the plan then Bioware leaked on the theory themselves and that Acavyos (the Youtuber who did the IT video) was actually someone from Bioware
It wouldn't surprise me and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of those originally touting the idea and now supporting it were someone from Bioware (such as Acavyos). Heck for all you know everyone you're speaking to is from Bioware in some capacity it is their forum after all
Don't give it away!
A point made on my thread by Admiral Hackett and my replygreywardencommander wrote...
Admiral-Hackett wrote...
Look at this background of the song/ also listen to the lyrics, and then read this comment.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm82gjZDIDU
"Bioware is not as dumb as I thought. The Background was only a CLUE for fans to lead us here. And then.. Listen to the lyrics. It explains the last 10 minutes of Mass Effect 3 was a dream, or Indoctrination.- Visions are born from an unknown force. ( Catalyst or starchild fans made up)- It dominates the way of time. ( Catalyst = Reaper, dominating every 50k years)- The dream only ends when the world comes to an end ( Mass relays destroy all worlds, Shepard breathes and wakes up)"
I agree and had similar ideas though tbh never even thought about it as people would say 'that's just a coincidence re the song).
The ME1 song has similar references from what I remember someone saying but can't remember
yes and people say it's not the same but that's not true physics supports a controlled explosion would be the same if not worseShaleene wrote...
Did anyone mention that when a mass relay is destroyed it supernova's and destroys the entire system, thus destroying everything and everyone anyway? I really didn't feel like reading 900 pages to find out.
Modifié par greywardencommander, 25 mars 2012 - 12:50 .
Wounded_Wolf wrote...
estebanus wrote...
Wounded_Wolf wrote...
estebanus wrote...
I just noticed something in the final chamber after having replayed the ending. Don't know if it means anything but I'll say it anyway:
When you fire your gun in the final chamber, there is an echo. One would assume this to be normal, and it actually would be, but what really sounded off was the sound of the echo.
IMO, it doesn't sound like the echo that would emanate from the gun that we have experienced earlier in the game, for example the ancient ruins on Tuchanka.
This echo from the gun sounds like the recurring sound of a person. It sounds like the echo of a screaming voice. Is it possible that it could be Shepard's subconscious screaming out that something is wrong in the form of a gunshot?
Notice how Shepard lets the gun fall in the control an synthesis endings. the way he/she lets them fall seems to have a certain air of fatality, of giving up around them don't they? This could possibly be a hint at Shepard giving in to indoctrination.
Just something I thought worthy of pointing out!
Yeah well spotted and I actually posted something about this earlier
I played the ending through with my female Shepard, and the qun's echo seemed a little like the voice of a woman.
I'm gonna try it with my male Shepard now, see if the echo sounds different.
I played with a fem Shep too so i'd be very interested to know what you find. Although it would also make sense for the sound to be harbinger reacting somehow to Shepard choosing the destroy option.
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