57139 réponses à ce sujet

[greywardencommander]

I just think the simple idea of the Stargazer 'stock image' and the starchild (both of those being the cover and name of the song) and the lyrics in that same song...that alone can't be more than a coincidence I'm sorry...by making it a stock image they wanted people to find it...

constant references to the mind, 'storm' in your mind, unknown forces causing visions (reapers), curtains of mist fading and stuff unveiled (the realisation it's an illusion by the reapers), storms of new energy (determination of Shepard after realising he's overcome indoctrination and beaten the reapers greatest weapons), let go of your thoughts and dreams what can you see now (the truth it's an illusion) feel the warmth again (wake up) Starchild falling (Harbinger/starchild), hands of the blind are holding your fate (the starchild/harbinger)
the dream only ends (destroy reapers and defeat them etc) when the world ends
the more pain i feel the more i see (he needs to overcome this to really see what he needs to do)
streams of fear running through my heart (harbinger plays on this, the fear that he can't truly win)
But I will make the time run backwards (go back to being hit by Harbinger and destroy them)

Hell they should have just made the song the credits song at the end lol

here's the lyrics

[Part I (Wanderer of Time)]

So mysterious is your world,
Concealed beyond the stars
Far away from the earth,
It flows one with time and dark as the night
Million shapes and colours
Are storming inside your mind
Creating endless dimensions
Forming universes without walls

Let go! of the stars, the stars that fell into the sea
Let go! of your thoughts and dreams,
What can you see now

You cannot save them anymore
- Wanderer of time -
It's too late now
- Creator of Dimensions -
Destroy the walls of time
Hands of the blind are holding your fate
Tides of life will take you away, will take you away

Starchild!
Visions are born from the unknown force
It dominates the way of time
The dream only ends, when the worlds come to an end
Starchild!
You cannot escape to the dark streams of the sea,
To suppress your dreams
Nothing can keep you away from the need to create
'cause your path is free...

[Part II (Buring Star)]
[ Lyrics from: http://www.lyricsmod.../starchild.html ]
I've hold the fire within myself
Years I've walked in the coldest winds
Through the deserts of sand and snow
The time is passing and I know,
That I'm wasting my life, destroying my dreams
I'm diving into the bottomless sea
From sorrow and pain I find my strength
The more pain I feel, the more I see
Now I'm watching my life flowing in the dark
Like streams of fear running through my heart
And it's wearing me down until I'm gone
Soon I'll join the endless whirls of stars
And I fall deeper into the unknown voids
Something is dying, yet something is born
And I fall into infinity like a burning star
When will I find my silent dawn
I fall like a burning star!

[Part III (The Creation)]

The curtains of mist are fading
And the veils of star clouds are revealed
Storms of new energy
Flows in the depths of my mind
New constellations are born
In total harmony of perfection
And the dissonant unbalance was broken
As the colours fell straight from the light

[Part IV (The Sea of Stars)]

I'm floating in the sea of stars,
I'm drifting away from the shore
I will be lost in the dream when the dark days come
But I will make the time run backwards and
I'll make the stars shine again
I will light up the sky to a bright crimson nights
... And they'll shine together forever
With brilliant silver colours they'll shine forever

[Part V (Finale)]

The whirls of stars takes you now far away
Away from the cold nightmare
Let go of you thoughts and dreams
And you will feel the warmth once again
Starchild! in the Sea of Stars you fall
You fall like a burning star!
Starchild! in the Sea of Stars you fall
... But there is no end to creation

Modifié par greywardencommander, 25 mars 2012 - 09:27 .

[dorktainian]

he he. class vid.

[Rob Psyence]

The dream only ends, when the worlds come to an end
Starchild!

Hmmm...

Modifié par Rob Psyence, 25 mars 2012 - 09:27 .

[Erethrian]

Rob Psyence wrote...

The dream only ends, when the worlds come to an end
Starchild!

Hmmm...

Great!

[greywardencommander]

Exactly, and I keep seeing the app thing means the whole idea was dropped idea
i've read it again he EXPLICITLY says SEQUENCE of being controlled in game by indoctrination was dropped not the concept of being indoctrinated no SEQUENCE not 'the idea was dropped'.
Thus I take that it was deliberately in the app to be a clue, why release it otherwise and have people just annoyed that it wasn't in game (because it would have been pretty cool)
More importantly if the idea of being indoctrinated and controlled in game was so important why drop an entire concept purely based on gameplay mechanics when the idea can be presented in other means (such as what we have?), auto dialogue (we have enough of that so why not) and player movement.
Nope I think they wanted to have Shepard indoctrinated or have to overcome it and to give it more impact and resonance (if it was in game at the time it wouldn't be any near as powerful etc because reload save etc) they made it how it is at the minute, witholding the result of your decision because in story terms and plot twist terms etc it's suspense, pretty powerful and usually received well to end on a cliff hanger.

In fact don't forget even without indoctrination it could still just be a dream in his near death experience and the 10 minutes are to point it out.

As I say in my thread looking at the last 10 minutes with really simple psychology alone is enough to suggest I.T is real or something close to it is. So even if you dismiss the rest of the game as stuff being picked up on after the fact to fit, the last 10 minutes is nothing but a huge clue.

The slow motion (to match the previous dreams, it's the biggest and most important indoctrination dream), the Anderson & TIM Paragon-Renegade colour switcharoo. The fact you can't argue anything you just accept SOMEONE WHO SAYS THEY CONTROL YOUR ENEMY'S WORD (a massive no no). This might have been the only thing deliberately pointing to I.T. but the stuff I talk about in my thread to do with the psychology of the last 10 minutes both in terms of that and the way the decisions are presented alone more than show the fact you're supposed to realise it's a hallucination even if everything else is coincidence (very compelling nonetheless).

As I also say in my thread in real world terms E.A lose absolutely nothing (financially or otherwise) in having the endings come out in DLC or massive update etc and having the endings unfinished on disk at the minute and released say on the 7th April (one day after PAX announcement) if it was deliberately done for storytelling.

So even if the dlc has us wake up in hospital after being dragged away from the battlefield (in the app Ashley coming down to see you with permission, clue to something like this maybe, why would she need permission on the Normandy or anywhere else for that matter) and it had nothing to do with indoctrination at all but WAS a near death experience dream, future life flashing before eyes or something, it is possible based on last 10 minutes alone.

Modifié par greywardencommander, 25 mars 2012 - 09:47 .

[Siibi]

I really hope it was a hallucination, still that doesn't mean I don't want an ending DLC. I want my Liara ending!

[TrveOmegaSlayer]

Wait, wait I lost something
How Wintersun's Starchild is related to the game?

Did someone from Bioware mentioned the song?

[Erethrian]

greywardencommander wrote...

Exactly, and I keep seeing the app thing means the whole idea was dropped idea
i've read it again he EXPLICITLY says SEQUENCE of being controlled in game by indoctrination was dropped not the concept of being indoctrinated no SEQUENCE not 'the idea was dropped'.
Thus I take that it was deliberately in the app to be a clue, why release it otherwise and have people just annoyed that it wasn't in game (because it would have been pretty cool)
More importantly if the idea of being indoctrinated and controlled in game was so important why drop an entire concept purely based on gameplay mechanics when the idea can be presented in other means (such as what we have?), auto dialogue (we have enough of that so why not) and player movement.
Nope I think they wanted to have Shepard indoctrinated or have to overcome it and to give it more impact and resonance (if it was in game at the time it wouldn't be any near as powerful etc because reload save etc) they made it how it is at the minute, witholding the result of your decision because in story terms and plot twist terms etc it's suspense, pretty powerful and usually received well to end on a cliff hanger.

In fact don't forget even without indoctrination it could still just be a dream in his near death experience and the 10 minutes are to point it out.

As I say in my thread the last 10 minutes alone is enough to suggest I.T is real so even if you dismiss the rest of the game as stuff being picked up on after the fact to fit, the last 10 minutes is nothing but a huge clue. The slow motion (to match the previous dreams, it's the biggest and most important indoctrination dream), the Anderson & TIM Paragon-Renegade colour switcharoo. The fact you can't argue anything you just accept SOMEONE WHO SAYS THEY CONTROL YOUR ENEMY'S WORD (a massive no no). This might have been the only thing deliberately pointing to I.T. but the stuff I talk about in my thread to do with the psychology of the last 10 minutes both in terms of that and the way the decisions are presented alone more than show the fact you're supposed to realise it's a hallucination.

As I also say in my thread in real world terms E.A lose absolutely nothing (financially or otherwise) in having the endings come out in DLC or massive update etc and having the endings unfinished on disk at the minute and released say on the 7th April (one day after PAX announcement) if it was deliberately done for storytelling.

Yep, that first thing is what I'm trying to explain to all those people who say that the app denies the IT. They don't say "the indoctrination was scrapped", the specifically say that part of the "gameplay" was scrapped due to weird things with it.

[greywardencommander]

TrveOmegaSlayer wrote...

Wait, wait I lost something
How Wintersun's Starchild is related to the game?

Did someone from Bioware mentioned the song?

the image for the song (i.e. album art) is an exact copy of the stargazer scene (hugely criticized) and the lyrics etc suggest the last 10 mins were a dream/indoctrination attempt.

Thus everyone picks up on stock image as oh my god it was really bad when in itself it was a clue.

[greywardencommander]

Siibi wrote...

I really hope it was a hallucination, still that doesn't mean I don't want an ending DLC. I want my Liara ending!

I.T. is the idea that we wake up and continue the fight based on our final decision (succumbing to or overcoming the indoctrination) so both ways - we get an ending dlc and I.T has you covered.

in fact see my thread for how I think it could be covered (after I do all the simple psychological stuff why the endings aren't the endings and why E.A lose nothing doing it this way and keeping the speculation going.)

Modifié par greywardencommander, 25 mars 2012 - 09:53 .

[Lyria]

Something I've been mulling over...TIM can't just control anyone right?
They have to be indoctrinated on some level? Otherwise he could just control
anyone he wanted. Anderson and Shepard have been exposed.

[greywardencommander]

protognosis wrote...

Something I've been mulling over...TIM can't just control anyone right?
They have to be indoctrinated on some level? Otherwise he could just control
anyone he wanted. Anderson and Shepard have been exposed.

seeing as it's all in his head as he's lying knocked out by Harby it doesn't really matter, it's just his indoctrinated side trying to control his willpower and mind and him 'controlling' is showing the indoctrinated side desperately trying to seize control (assuming direct control lol)

[CannotCompute]

greywardencommander wrote...

My main thoughts that have nothing to do with any of the clues really, other than one the Final Hours App does nothing for me except suggest that IT is true. It says explicitly the scene they talk about was scrapped because of a GAMEPLAY MECHANIC, i.e. not because of the idea. Why would they dismiss the entire concept when it's clearly important to them to have Shepard overcome indoctrination (ME3's Ilos and Omega Relay, i.e. doing the 'impossible')

So to have people say this disproves the theory, rubbish it more or less says 'they couldn't do the in game mechanic so they extended it to the player' we are Shepard, s/he is the vessel of how we see the universe.

From a psychological perspective these are my ideas:

He doesn't realise he's being indoctrinated so we don't...not until we realise (i.e. post-game) do we see the fact that we were being indoctrinated all along, if we realise in game (e.g. something's up with this) so does Shepard and he becomes defiant and chooses destroy.

I'll explain why, Shepard is your vessel, the most engaging and  immersive vessel in gaming history. You only see what Shepard sees, hear what Shepard hears, feels (emotive in this case) what Shepard feels. You
won't see you're being indoctrinated because Shepard doesn't.

Not until the end - this is crucial to have the impact they want.

The two main things about the endings is enough to show this, it's so  obviously wrong the TIM - being Control and Paragon (a renegade character), Synthesis = Saren and Destroy is Renegade and is your plan
all along represented by Anderson a Paragon character and your mentor with the same ideology. That's odd in itself and is supposed to be enough to show the gamer even if they haven't picked up on all the subtle hints already outlined in this theory. I.e. even if you're not paying attention enough, the ending is enough to make you go blimey this is just wrong.

If you (and thus Shepard) realise you are being indoctrinated you select destroy and are rewarded with Shepard  breathing. If you don't realise (like Shepard) you choose Control or Synthesis and succumb (both you and
Shepard) to the indoctrination.

Once you realise you've been indoctrinted (like Shepard) you suddenly realise all the things that should have been so obvious before (like in this thread) e.g. the child, the dreams, the headaches, the growls, the humming, all the in game conversations such as Javik saying the VI didn't notice the 'sleeping agents', Thane's poem, the fact the final 10 mins is based on Shepard's memories, the whole 10 mins full stop, conversations with your crew making out something's different about you and they're worried, the Prothean VI shutting down after a few conversations we assume it's because of Kai Leng could be because of us etc. All the clues are there but we ignore them assuming they're meaning something else at the time UNTIL WE LOOK AGAIN IN A NEW LIGHT and thus Shepard remains defiant and chooses destroy.

The way the options are presented are odd as well. Destroy first, it's what Shepard wants but throw in the Geth, Relays and himself as suffering to steer himself away from that option. Second option - what the Reapers
want him to do like TIM so they can control you select control and merge with the reapers (in reality they will control you, just like with TIM, his 'yes' when Shepard asks if they will control the reapers is very subtley a hesitation, why hesitate? because it's not true). Then he provides the magical third option, a compromise, merge synthetic and organic, this in reality is just merging with the Reapers just like Saren who until you show him otherwise thought synthesis was a good thing because it was neither control or destroy, a huge hint).

This is basic psychology, present the options using what they want first but make it so it seems like a bad choice, give your option and when they're still not convinced give them the magical compromise that really makes you happier than the other person because the person changed their mind and won't go with the option you don't want. Simple psychology.

Put it this way, indoctrination is subliminal messaging and making people susceptible to influence and suggestion (just like in the codex). Harbinger can't outright control you, no indoctrination does that not until you become a husk, Saren says you have to keep your mind or you're useless as an ally. Harbinger has to do the only thing he can, make you susceptible to the idea that destroying the Reapers is wrong so he veers you away from that and if you still won't accept control of the reapers because it's wrong he gives you his magic 'compromise' which in reality just makes you just as easy to influence to do what he wants (just like Saren with Sovereign).  Indoctrination isn't outright control, never has been (in Mass Effect or in real life), it's impossible until they become husks (or willing husks in terms of collectors, assuming control etc).

In real world terms:

Someone else pointed out this isn't pinned under fan fiction - odd in itself.

In real world terms, EA lose nothing keeping the speculation going, tweets to this thread, cryptic clues etc that all's not what it seems.

if it was true the 'clarification content' is based on IT so already budgeted for.

People who traded their games in might still be inclined to get it again and have their fath restored. Most probably kept their games in the belief  that Bioware had a trick up their sleeve because the 10 mins just didn't make sense.

'no such thing as bad publicity' they all say.

I would bet after the reveal (if true) it would go down in media, entertainment and more importantly gaming history. If nothing says what the twist was just that it was beautiful, amazing and brilliantly executed people otherwise not bothered would maybe go and buy all three games to find out just what the fuss was.

People who love the series, and thus the twist continue to invest in the series in new dlc and other merchandise, short term loss, long term gain.

Excellent post  loved reading it.

[marrak]

Just replayed the ending... after thoroughly washing myself after playing it a second time, I found a few things intriguing.

The first: During the TIM speaking to you and Anderson, there are whispers playing in the background. This, along with the black haze at the edges of the screen makes me question whether this is actually happening. The whispers sound remarkably similar to what you hear during the dream sequences.

The starchild changes his stance repeatedly when it comes to the reapers. It happens too often to simply be bad storytelling: He changes between he controls them, or they are his solution to referencing them alongside himself. Now this has been mentioned before, but it strikes me as odd that he doesn't remain consistent.

Finally, on the destruction ending. I find it remarkably odd what they don't show being destroyed. In other words, you don't see the Geth destroyed, or EDI. This is after making sure to include a scene with them during the fleet gathering. Now, someone can argue that the geth aren't there because they don't necessarily make it to the end, depending on your choices. EDI, however, does, and I can't imagine they wouldn't show Joker carrying or at least looking over her body once he comes out of the Normandy if the endings were complete. I really consider these two facts especially in the negative light (literally red) that they offer the destruction choice with.

[Lyria]

greywardencommander wrote...

protognosis wrote...

Something I've been mulling over...TIM can't just control anyone right?
They have to be indoctrinated on some level? Otherwise he could just control
anyone he wanted. Anderson and Shepard have been exposed.

seeing as it's all in his head as he's lying knocked out by Harby it doesn't really matter, it's just his indoctrinated side trying to control his willpower and mind and him 'controlling' is showing the indoctrinated side desperately trying to seize control (assuming direct control lol)

That's what I'm saying. If TIM can't just control anyone then that means they are indoctrinated. If he's real but if he's not, then that means Shepard is trying to fight it and that he is a representation of Shepard's subconscious.

[greywardencommander]

marrak wrote...

Just replayed the ending... after thoroughly washing myself after playing it a second time, I found a few things intriguing.

The first: During the TIM speaking to you and Anderson, there are whispers playing in the background. This, along with the black haze at the edges of the screen makes me question whether this is actually happening. The whispers sound remarkably similar to what you hear during the dream sequences.

The starchild changes his stance repeatedly when it comes to the reapers. It happens too often to simply be bad storytelling: He changes between he controls them, or they are his solution to referencing them alongside himself. Now this has been mentioned before, but it strikes me as odd that he doesn't remain consistent.

Finally, on the destruction ending. I find it remarkably odd what they don't show being destroyed. In other words, you don't see the Geth destroyed, or EDI. This is after making sure to include a scene with them during the fleet gathering. Now, someone can argue that the geth aren't there because they don't necessarily make it to the end, depending on your choices. EDI, however, does, and I can't imagine they wouldn't show Joker carrying or at least looking over her body once he comes out of the Normandy if the endings were complete. I really consider these two facts especially in the negative light (literally red) that they offer the destruction choice with.

exactly re. the starchild's stance (again basic psychology on body language) I also point out (in my long post quoted about two above) what seems like his every so slight hesitation (and seemingly contradictory to previous statement about control) when he says yes in answer to 'so I will control the reapers'

they don't show geth and EDI because (as I say in my post and my thread) then it's immediately obvious something is wrong with the endings and it's not real. The flamers say the fact Shep survives is only because he's part synthetic thus nothing happens, I'd say hang on a minute aren't they keeping him alive, controlling his organs etc. Odd he'd survive now synthetic life (including parts of him) have been destroyed wouldn't you say?

Modifié par greywardencommander, 25 mars 2012 - 10:21 .

[greywardencommander]

protognosis wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

protognosis wrote...

Something I've been mulling over...TIM can't just control anyone right?
They have to be indoctrinated on some level? Otherwise he could just control
anyone he wanted. Anderson and Shepard have been exposed.

seeing as it's all in his head as he's lying knocked out by Harby it doesn't really matter, it's just his indoctrinated side trying to control his willpower and mind and him 'controlling' is showing the indoctrinated side desperately trying to seize control (assuming direct control lol)

That's what I'm saying. If TIM can't just control anyone then that means they are indoctrinated. If he's real but if he's not, then that means Shepard is trying to fight it and that he is a representation of Shepard's subconscious.

Apologies I lose track who's for and against bar the odd person and I think I must have misread your 'TIM can't control anyone right)

I thought re. Illusive man you were trying to say he can control because Shep and Anderson are indoctrinated and that it plays out in real time thus trying to justify the endings are real and dismiss I.T.

[Lyria]

1m1 what does it stand for? Besides being the name of a record company in Australia?
Could it be a reference to the conversation EDI has in which she muses it is possible to reach a new state of being/higher level of consciousness/higher plane of existence in which the physics are different so much so that 1+1=3?
its a clue to say that we are still in this plane were 1 means 1?

[monrapias]

protognosis wrote...

1m1 what does it stand for? Besides being the name of a record company in Australia?
Could it be a reference to the conversation EDI has in which she muses it is possible to reach a new state of being/higher level of consciousness/higher plane of existence in which the physics are different so much so that 1+1=3?
its a clue to say that we are still in this plane were 1 means 1?

You can see 1m1 in mass effect 1 as well, so it can't have anything to do with edi.

[CannotCompute]

I just seem to have found another hint that the final scene in which we see the crew getting out of the Normandy might be just another one of Shepard's memory fragments.

Compare the view and music @ 4:50 (until the end) from ME3's final scenes

to

The first 20-30 secs from this vid from the beginning of Jacob's loyalty mission in ME2

The view we see in ME3's final scene is almost the same as the view on Aeia. The crashed ship theme is similar (Hugo Gernsback / Normandy). Also notice how the music is very much alike.

Modifié par CannotCompute, 25 mars 2012 - 10:42 .

[Lyria]

Bullocks!! Thought I had something there.

Oh no. I agree indoctrination is the only plausible means by which Bioware can justify these s**t endings.
I'm trying to figure out more clues. Realizing that there are corpses of Kaiden, Ashley all around Shepard during my first shambling crawl towards the end convinced me something was up.

Nevermind the voices of the fallen talking to Shepard in dark dreams speaking.
Nor the few times a deep voice, that sounds like reaper overtones, speaking when the Starchild speaks.

[OneWithTheAssassins]

CannotCompute wrote...

I just seem to have found another hint that the final scene in which we see the crew getting out of the Normandy might be just another one of Shepard's memory fragments.

Compare the view and music @ 4:50 (until the end) from ME3's final scenes

to

The first 30 secs from this vid from the beginning of Jacob's loyalty mission in ME2

The view we see in ME3's final scene is almost the same as the view on Aeia. The crashed ship theme is similar (Hugo Gernsback / Normandy). Also notice how the music is very much alike.

Holy sh*t! It's like Bioware is smaking us in the face with these hints. Great find! How did you make this connection?

[OneWithTheAssassins]

Sorry double post...

Modifié par OneWithTheAssassins, 25 mars 2012 - 10:43 .

[nyrocron]

Zorya, from Zaeed's loyalty mission, fits even better: pic
(At least the sky)

Modifié par nyrocron, 25 mars 2012 - 10:45 .

[Reptilian Rob]

Not a denyer or supporter of the theory, but thought you guys would find this interesting.

In Greek symbolism 1M1 reversed (as it is shown on the Citadel) translates to a formula related to change or a "grand plan" of sorts. It was first used to figure out the alignment of astronomical charts.

Interesting.