57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Stigweird85]

Here is a question, we have already established that there is no teleport technology in the Mass Effect universe

Yet the beam is just that. Even the guide calls it a "transport beam".

Thoughts?

[Interslice]

bigstig wrote...

 Not sure if this has been discussed already or not but after reading through all this I am a believer in the IT
However the guide for the game seems to counter it, 
According to the guide this is how the endings break down:
If you import a save where collectors base was destroyed

• EMS Below 1750 Earth is destroyed regardless of choice
• At 1750, Earth is destroyed if you use destroy option
• at 2050, if you become a reaper earth is saved
• At 2350, if you just destroy, earth is devestated but still there
• At 2650, reapers destroyed earth is saved
• At 2800, you can create synergy SAVING EARTH AND THE GALAXY
• At 4000, if you destroy the reapers and "saved" anderson, shepard lives
• At 5000, if you destroy reapers but did not "save" Anderson Shepard Lives

if you don't import a save, or you kept the collector base:

• EMS Below 1750 Earth is destroyed regardless of choice
• At 1750 if you choose to become a reaper Earth is destroyed
• At 1900, choose destroy earth devestated but still there
• At 2350 if you become a reaper earth is saved
• At 2650 if you destroy Earth is saved
• At 2800, you can create synergy SAVING EARTH AND THE GALAXY
• At 4000, if you destroy the reapers and "saved" anderson, shepard lives
• At 5000, if you destroy reapers but did not "save" Anderson Shepard Lives

it is also worth noting it mentions a special reward for those with a living Prejek Paddle fish from a Mass Effect 2 save. Does anyone know what it is?

I want to believe indoctrination is true, but looking at this has started to put doubts back into my mind.  It seems that even the guide believes synergy was  the right thing to do as only it saves the galaxy. In which case Saren was right all along which wouldn't be that bad as a twist ending I suppose.

You can save the Earth by destroying the Reapers: "At 2650 if you destroy Earth is saved." I'm pretty sure at higher EMS, the destroy option pans out the same in terms of what we see. So you can probably infer that the Earth is still saved when you choose destroy. I think the "Saving Earth and the galaxy" is just a wording thing on the writer's part.

EDIT: Sorry about the first point. Was writing this when you posted your correction.

Modifié par Interslice, 25 mars 2012 - 12:34 .

[Interslice]

bigstig wrote...

Here is a question, we have already established that there is no teleport technology in the Mass Effect universe

Yet the beam is just that. Even the guide calls it a "transport beam".

Thoughts?

Again, I think it's just the wording of the writer. Prima is the one who writes the guides, not Bioware. I mean, Bioware helps in terms of specifics, but I think it works more like an interview, in which case, meaning can be lost through different word choice.

[Rifneno]

Either.Ardrey wrote...

What I meant by non-committal was A) the western gaming audience (not just Mass Effect's fans) and that they were non-committal in terms of the music. You don't see anyone really mass raving or revolting for/against the music in western games.

Maybe because the music isn't good enough to warrant it. Cause, meet Effect. Effect, this is my good friend Cause.

For the record, lyrics in a song does not necessarily automatically mean that it is good. Neither does hiring a pop star. All it means is that they spent more money, which is not always a good thing, depending on the context. I personally think that if I heard lyrics in a Western game, my mind would revolt. There's a reason why they don't often, if at all, do lyrics in western games. It's because it doesn't fit with the tone most Western games go with.

Good to know that blanket dismissals of "nuh-uh" aren't exclusive to IT opponents.
You do realize I don't mean lyrics while walking through towns and everything, right? I mean during the endings or major emotional moments. Dragon Age did it very well with I Am The One and even better with the main theme. The one at the title screen. Does an excellent job of conveying the sorrowful mood of Ferelden under blight. But it makes your mind revolt Mmm'kay.

Plus those generalities you listed are a disservice to both Japanese and western games. JRPGs were once the go to place for the best storytelling in games, contrary to what your statement implies. Western games have great, complex stories, and so do Japanese games. Both have utter crap as well (most cases). The same goes for the music. Both have some that are great, others garbage.

What's garbage is your double standard that jRPG music is only such a big deal only because Japan takes their gaming so much more seriously than America does , while at the same time lumping everything together and insisting everything is the same. Yeah, no.

Good point. I'm thinking it may be that it's a different texture on that same model in the dream sequences. There are plants in the dreams that could easily qualify.

I went on a conduit run to get some up close screenshots of the trees before and after the beam just to compare the textures actually. Turned out I couldn't really tell if the textures changed because the "dream vision" filter they slap on after the beam really makes it hard to compare even side by side.

JustAidan wrote...

Mentioned awhile ago (twice, threes maybe who can keep track at this stage) so it is no wonder you missed it.

The body piles are made up of nothing but faceless dolls of Ashley and Kaiden in their armour from the first game

To be fair, they used those exact models on the Collector ship and that totally happened. ... Of course, really that also leads credence to the theory that that part of the Citadel is modeled from the Collector ship memories in Shepard's mind.

nyrocron wrote...

No. The final hours app specifically says that they had the idea of Shepard being indoctrinated and falling under full Reaper control but

"This sequence was dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices"

And IT being true would just mean that they found the perfect solution to include indoctrination in the game.

And let's not forget it also said something about a "Matrix ending". Red pill/blue pill anyone?

[nyrocron]

I did not see it back then but it was posted at Nov/2011 so i think this is the original leaked script: http://pastebin.com/KYJNWGug

I did just skim thorugh it and can't find very much differences to the final game (ending). If their statement that they changed the ending is true that would (in my opinion) support the theory that they implemented indoctrination as "real" ending.

Modifié par nyrocron, 25 mars 2012 - 12:42 .

[Riverseer]

First time posting so sorry if this shows up wrong.
https://twitter.com/...883531729108992

ME3 twitter bringing up dreams and talking about signs of indoctrination? sounds good to me.
or maybe im grasping for any hints thought?

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

nyrocron wrote...

I did not see it back then but it was posted at Nov/2011 so i think this is the original leaked script: http://pastebin.com/KYJNWGug

I did just skim thorugh it and can't find very much differences to the final game. If their statement that they changed the ending is true that would (in my opinion) support the theory that they implemented indoctrination as "real" ending.

Or it could be just another trick for pulling us along.

If there is one thing I have learned about the gaming industry "leaked" can just as easily be a fancy way of saying "reveal."

Look at it this way, apprently someone was able to get their hands on the scribt and leak it, but as we approach PAX we have no hint or even clue at what they are going to reveal. No word about this "clarification" on the ending, nothing.

Curios if you ask me.

[SC0TTYD00]

Indoctrination Theory...please be true. Or something as good....don't let us die. Not like this...

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Riverseer wrote...

First time posting so sorry if this shows up wrong.
https://twitter.com/...883531729108992

ME3 twitter bringing up dreams and talking about signs of indoctrination? sounds good to me.
or maybe im grasping for any hints thought?

No that twitter statement is interesting. A Bioware Employe who talks about Indoctrination and Dreaming even if it is directed at Mass effect specificially.

[JustAidan]

Riverseer wrote...

First time posting so sorry if this shows up wrong.
https://twitter.com/...883531729108992

ME3 twitter bringing up dreams and talking about signs of indoctrination? sounds good to me.
or maybe im grasping for any hints thought?

Could be just grasping at emergency induction ports there.

Though to be fair the twitter feed from PR people (Jessica Merizan) before this whole think picked up steam were pretty much all *nudge nudge* *wink wink*

https://imgur.com/r/masseffect/WNTHS

And in fact she linked directly to this thread:


"Was the ending a hallucination as some of Merizan’s tweets seem to point to, even boldly pointing directly to the ‘hallucination’ post on the Bioware forum, and does the Mass Effect 3 indoctrination ending theory hold water?"

http://www.examiner....-indoctrination

So yeah, this is probably how the ending should be interpreted.

To be fair though, this doesn't confirm the ending or even further ending DlC. We just have to wait for that.
.
.
.
.
Waiting is hard, I wish SPACE MAGIC! would speed it along.

Modifié par JustAidan, 25 mars 2012 - 12:45 .

[Cucobr]

bigstig wrote...

Here is a question, we have already established that there is no teleport technology in the Mass Effect universe

Yet the beam is just that. Even the guide calls it a "transport beam".

Thoughts?

Its a Mass Relay.

[Riverseer]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Riverseer wrote...

First time posting so sorry if this shows up wrong.
https://twitter.com/...883531729108992

ME3 twitter bringing up dreams and talking about signs of indoctrination? sounds good to me.
or maybe im grasping for any hints thought?

No that twitter statement is interesting. A Bioware Employe who talks about Indoctrination and Dreaming even if it is directed at Mass effect specificially.

thought it was a bit strange never seen ME3 twitter even mention dreams seems a weird response for them to make as well

[nyrocron]

 Okay, some interesting things that got left out:

Conversation:
The APC comes to a stop at the edge of the massive crater which contains the facility.
Shepard decides whether or not his team will accompany him in the final run to the device.
Harvesters start landing in the crater. Anderson reinforces that they can't stay and fight - the Harvester swarm is virtually endless. They just need to get Shepard to the beam at all costs. Anderson and his team will cover one side of Shepard's approach, the henchmen the other side.


Action Moment / Cutscene:
A harvester lands almost on top of Shepard, knocking him down. The Harvester attacks, and Shepard scrambles to avoid it.
Suddenly, gunfire starts hitting the Harvester, distracting it. The henchmen appear, firing at the harvester, trying to get its attention. It moves to attack them - they shout for Shepard to go for the beam, and disappear, chased by the Harvester.
Shepard runs to the beam, ducking around more fire from landing Harvesters, and leaps into the beam.


3second cut scene: Falere/Samara and shepard use the repaired elevator to reach the last room.


The council were killed


Cutscene: Shepard leaps into the conduit beam.


Opening Cinematic: Shepard is in a snowy, creepy version of the park where he first saw the child playing. This establishes Shepard in a dream, and shows the child again. Many voices call out to Shepard. These are voices of people who’ve died, but you can’t really tell who is speaking.

Why is the dream sequence described with parts of the final?

An other remarkable fact: Harbinger is not mentioned. They must have introduces him to the beam scene after the leak. Why would they introduce Harbinger if not to indoctrinate Shepard?

[Icinix]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

I did not see it back then but it was posted at Nov/2011 so i think this is the original leaked script: http://pastebin.com/KYJNWGug

I did just skim thorugh it and can't find very much differences to the final game. If their statement that they changed the ending is true that would (in my opinion) support the theory that they implemented indoctrination as "real" ending.

Or it could be just another trick for pulling us along.

If there is one thing I have learned about the gaming industry "leaked" can just as easily be a fancy way of saying "reveal."

Look at it this way, apprently someone was able to get their hands on the scribt and leak it, but as we approach PAX we have no hint or even clue at what they are going to reveal. No word about this "clarification" on the ending, nothing.

Curios if you ask me.

Yeah - I'm a die hard Indoctrination Theory conspiracist - 

So to me two leaks screams setup to me.

First ) Cerberus is indoctrinated. This line was cut - and at no point beyond Kai Leng / Prothean VI and the Star Child is it ever claimed Cerberus is indoctrinated.

Second ) The script leak - the ending was empty and not fleshed out but enough to show us that we would get - and get it we did.

They both seem like setups to convince people the endings are final.

But then there are the statements from Casey Hudson about finding a way to make the player experience something the avatar did etc. All of the marketing quotes that directly go against the ending etc.

The pax event pre-planned and brought up before release - like you've said - the lack of any real commentary about it etc. Something is up.

[TrveOmegaSlayer]

greywardencommander wrote...

TrveOmegaSlayer wrote...

Wait, wait I lost something
How Wintersun's Starchild is related to the game?

Did someone from Bioware mentioned the song?

the image for the song (i.e. album art) is an exact copy of the stargazer scene (hugely criticized) and the lyrics etc suggest the last 10 mins were a dream/indoctrination attempt.

Thus everyone picks up on stock image as oh my god it was really bad when in itself it was a clue.

hm...maybe I feel butthurt since I have that record from day 1 and didn't saw the relation...I support the indoc theory 100% but this things seems stretched to me

[nyrocron]

I feel what I mentioned in my last post is big: They introduced Harbinger after the leak. (Or if it was deliberate they did intentionally not mention him)
In my opinion that is some strong evidence.

Modifié par nyrocron, 25 mars 2012 - 12:57 .

[Rifneno]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Or it could be just another trick for pulling us along.

If there is one thing I have learned about the gaming industry "leaked" can just as easily be a fancy way of saying "reveal."

Look at it this way, apprently someone was able to get their hands on the scribt and leak it, but as we approach PAX we have no hint or even clue at what they are going to reveal. No word about this "clarification" on the ending, nothing.

Curios if you ask me.

Actually there's a decent explanation for how the script leaked.  Microsoft was testing a dashboard update on Xbox Live.  Beta or something.  The beta dashboard unfortunately had something to get a demo of ME3.  The demo was nothing major and taken down very quickly, but some computer whizzes who downloaded it then transfered it to their PC and began dissecting the files.  Or so I've heard anyway.

[Icinix]

nyrocron wrote...

I feel what I mentioned in my last post is big: They introduced Harbinger after the leak. (Or if it was deliberate they did intentionally not mention him)
In my opinion that is some strong evidence.

It really is - because it really could have been pretty much any Reaper protecting the beam.

But what was Harbinger famous for? Assuming control, I will direct this personally etc etc

Then they make sure they show you watching Harbinger up and leave - which doesn't make sense since he should be well aware of any living beings in front of the beam AND there is still the reaminder of Hammer squad - even in retreat he wouldn't risk them regrouping and making another push on a totally undefended relay.

[waldstr18]

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

[SanoBub]

Riverseer wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Riverseer wrote...

First time posting so sorry if this shows up wrong.
https://twitter.com/...883531729108992

ME3 twitter bringing up dreams and talking about signs of indoctrination? sounds good to me.
or maybe im grasping for any hints thought?

No that twitter statement is interesting. A Bioware Employe who talks about Indoctrination and Dreaming even if it is directed at Mass effect specificially.

thought it was a bit strange never seen ME3 twitter even mention dreams seems a weird response for them to make as well

It's especially interesting considering that they know that we'll pick everything apart they post.

[Rifneno]

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

[nyrocron]

SanoBub wrote...

It's especially interesting considering that they know that we'll pick everything apart they post.

Well they could just be fooling us.

[Gerbil Fetus]

Hello there everyone!

Been following this thread since about page 200- something or other, thought i should post something.

Mostly a rant, so tune out if you want.

When i played ME3 i went in with a few wild guesses at whatever happens at the end.


-shep dies
-shep lives
-joins Illusive man
-Everyone dies(fail to stop Reapers harvesting this Cycle)
- the classic end showing everyone WINNING
-indoctrination(inspired by the simmilarities of Saren and my Renegade Shep, and that Shep had alliances on the go with all the races Saren used in ME1. Oh and the evil glowing enhancements.)
- i even thought there might be chance saren could pull a Lazerus Project of his own abd come back! Because hey DA:O had a secret party member and the ME3 CE had talked about a secret character.
 (the one we got was awesome btw)

Anyway.

First dream scene i was all "awww yeah! THIS CANNOT BE GOOD....Its gonna happen im gonna get to see shep get indoctrinated!!!" because i did not trust that suspicious dream AT ALL.
(i did however believe the Child from the ducts to be real, just the Dream one was false)

Id heard the end was "bad" but that was all. Never the less i hammered through the game, got to the end expecting some crazy showdown with Harbinger or something where he would reveal to all "YOU ARE INDOCTRINATED. YOU ARE MINE SHEPARD." or something like that.

assualt to the Beam....Harbinger rocks up: 
Me: " hahaha YES this is great (flashes of conduit charge on ilos)
BOOM Harbinger shoots me.
Me: Aggghhhh? Whaaaat i evaded that ****an-oh ****!?! Sheps alive!?"

Harbinger LEAVES.
"oh thats crap, we are meant to have a showdown! Come back!"
On i go into the infamous 10 minutes, feeling odd about the whole ordeal, the liiiitle inconcisencies all about. i feel like its rushed and kind of annoying like peoe said, but alot of it was what i had partially expected.....i just didnt expect shep to die, the universe to practically almost all die, AND the Relays to kersplode IN EVERY ENDING.

I kept thinking "why did thise dreams amount to nothing? Was it a red herring? Was it really all just apart of their plan to write a more sypathetic multi-faceted Shepard?"

Why didnt i get to blow up Harbinger!? Why did i have to deal with this new Master AI?
Then i slooooowwly started to realise....those dreams....those last 10 minutes both had simmilar slow walking...could the dreams have been there to imply those messed up 10 minutes are also a dream??

Naaahhhh.
That leaves the endgame unresolved in that case...they wouldnt do that....although that means the end isnt as stupid...and DLC for Fallout3 continued after the player was "killed" so they could try something similar... And i would fix those annoying inconsistancies with the end.

Naaaaaahhhh
The internet practically broke in half over the rage of day one DLC and the craziness over the endings? That sort of stunt would be unheard of...just like the Rage on the internet was nearly unheard of (people angrily DEMANDING a new end)

Basically i weighed the pros and cons of this idea back and forth as if i was Gollum dciding wether or not to kill Frodo and Sam in their Sleep.

Eventually i thought it was a big fat maybe and i decided not to get my hopes up.

I read the guide book after finishing the game and noticed its whole list of endings, and thought it was reeeaaally odd that shep lives only if you pick destroy( its the only one his body doesnt disintegrate)  That Master AI said i'd die....( i didnt have the 5000pts to see the breath scene) 


Then i realised I WAS getting my final confrontation with Harbinger.
I WAS getting my boss fight.
I WAS Getting resolution to the Indoctrination i was expecting....but not at all how i expected!

Reaching this point in this thread, its as if i have been Indoctrinated by this very theory.
I was doubting the probability of this idea, and i had nowhere near as much evidence or thinking behind it as everyone else here, and there was so much that i initially missed.

But i am now such a firm believer in the indoctrination Theory that i dont care if they dont release a DLC of what Shep does to take down the reapers after he wakes up, that end on the disk is an AMaZING way to end the game and i will defend it forever.
(then inform people of why, of course)

But the best thing is that there HAS to be more coming..... Mr. Aldrin says "One More Story"


HELL BLOODY YEAH.

Bravo! Bioware you bloody Geniuses, and thank you Forum for helping dispel any doubts i had!

(P.S. while this is a theory-if its disproven i dont think anything will get te idea from my head. Its there either i have been actually indoctrinated, or Leo Dicaprio's team have been inside my dreams ad planted it there.)

[Rifneno]

Gerbil Fetus wrote...

- i even thought there might be chance saren could pull a Lazerus Project of his own abd come back! Because hey DA:O had a secret party member and the ME3 CE had talked about a secret character.
 (the one we got was awesome btw)

Hehe.  Collector's Edition indeed.

[Gerbil Fetus]

Also want to say that what makes it all the more Awesome, was that the Shep i played through with was my first Shep from ME 1-which i played trying to do decisions that i honestly thought were right and how i would choose IRL and without knowing the outcomes or concequences of their actions.

And even though i had him play through all 3 choices so i could see the outcomes the first choice he picked was.......

.....Control.