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[TrveOmegaSlayer]

The whispers in last dream before attacking Cerberus calls Shep "Siha"
what does it mean?

[JustAidan]

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

For the low EMS; destroy is the only option counter argument the counter-counter argument is that with low EMS you haven't spent much time building your army, giving less time for indoctrination.

Modifié par JustAidan, 25 mars 2012 - 01:29 .

[andy6915]

TrveOmegaSlayer wrote...

The whispers in last dream before attacking Cerberus calls Shep "Siha"
what does it mean?

You were playing female Shepard, weren't you? Siha is what Thane calls femShep, and the people who whisper in those scenes are all the people who have died that Shepard knew... Thane included.

[waldstr18]

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

i think i make a pretty valid point here. why do the indoctrination if you only leave the option to snap out of it anyway. doesnt seem efficient to me. and for your good and excellent points. they all sound like speculation to me. then again in the video i posted you see that there is clearly only one choice, and to add some speculation of my own: why would i get more wrong choices if i have more war assets? doesnt make sense to me.

anyways i only posted here to be able to tell you afterwards: "i called it" and "in your face!"

or come to think of it, maybe i want to be sucked in an endless discussion about whats real or not. well.. if i find the time.

[Aramintai]

andy69156915 wrote...

TrveOmegaSlayer wrote...

The whispers in last dream before attacking Cerberus calls Shep "Siha"
what does it mean?

You were playing female Shepard, weren't you? Siha is what Thane calls femShep, and the people who whisper in those scenes are all the people who have died that Shepard knew... Thane included.

Actually, I've heard it a couple of times as male Shepard. Dream lines were not tested properly, I suppose.

Modifié par Aramintai, 25 mars 2012 - 01:29 .

[greywardencommander]

Wounded_Wolf wrote...

bigstig wrote...

 Not sure if this has been discussed already or not but after reading through all this I am a believer in the IT
However the guide for the game seems to counter it, 
According to the guide this is how the endings break down:
If you import a save where collectors base was destroyed

• EMS Below 1750 Earth is destroyed regardless of choice
  
• At 1750, Earth is destroyed if you use destroy option
  
• at 2050, if you become a reaper earth is saved
  
• At 2350, if you just destroy, earth is devestated but still there
  
• At 2650, reapers destroyed earth is saved
  
• At 2800, you can create synergy SAVING EARTH AND THE GALAXY
  
• At 4000, if you destroy the reapers and "saved" anderson, shepard lives
  
• At 5000, if you destroy reapers but did not "save" Anderson Shepard Lives

if you don't import a save, or you kept the collector base:

• EMS Below 1750 Earth is destroyed regardless of choice 
  
• At 1750 if you choose to become a reaper Earth is destroyed
  
• At 1900, choose destroy earth devestated but still there
  
• At 2350 if you become a reaper earth is saved
  
• At 2650 if you destroy Earth is saved
  
• At 2800, you can create synergy SAVING EARTH AND THE GALAXY
  
• At 4000, if you destroy the reapers and "saved" anderson, shepard lives
  
• At 5000, if you destroy reapers but did not "save" Anderson Shepard Lives

it is also worth noting it mentions a special reward for those with a living Prejek Paddle fish from a Mass Effect 2 save. Does anyone know what it is?

I want to believe indoctrination is true, but looking at this has started to put doubts back into my mind.  It seems that even the guide believes synergy was  the right thing to do as only it saves the galaxy. In which case Saren was right all along which wouldn't be that bad as a twist ending I suppose.

Is this from an official guide?

I was under the impression (second hand e.g. Angry Joe's review) that if have under a certain EMS destroy is the only option?

[ZiggyPanda]

I love this theory, i wish it was biowares plan all along but i fear with their defensive response of the ending it wasn't and the inconsistancies are just that, overlooked errors. The dream sequences were an attempt to flesh out shepards emotional wear and tear and the kid was chosen because it's a cheap icon for innocense and the future.

Theories aside there are more matters to take into account, mainly the whole franchise aspect, just like Halo 3 said it'd wrap up masterchief's story and low and behold we have Halo 4 incoming. I expect that the reason the endings all funneled into a set of similar conclusions is because they are gonna make Mass Effect 4 or whatever, whether it's shepard or not. EA ain't gonna let Mass Effect die with so much success, like all corporations they are gonna milk the brand dry before theylay it to rest.

[Lakeshow1986]

Just replayed the ending, got Ashley in my flashbacks with Anderson and Joker. Whereas before it was Liara, Joker and Anderson...random!

[JustAidan]

waldstr18 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

i think i make a pretty valid point here. why do the indoctrination if you only leave the option to snap out of it anyway. doesnt seem efficient to me. and for your good and excellent points. they all sound like speculation to me. then again in the video i posted you see that there is clearly only one choice, and to add some speculation of my own: why would i get more wrong choices if i have more war assets? doesnt make sense to me.

anyways i only posted here to be able to tell you afterwards: "i called it" and "in your face!"

or come to think of it, maybe i want to be sucked in an endless discussion about whats real or not. well.. if i find the time.

You do raise a valid point and shouldn't be discounted, all arguments against the theory should be considered.
Though there is a significant amount of evidence that needed to be deliberately placed within the game and from PR responses before this whole thing caught traction without confirmation from bioware this is all speculation anyway.

The points you are arguing against, Vega humming, kid smiling etc are all quite weak and could easily be mistaken by people wanting to find stuff but are included in the discussion so we don't miss anything.

There are much stronger indications that the ending is an indoctrination attempt throughout this thread, not all are reflected in the OP, so you might find it interesting to go through the lot and make your own decision about the theory.

[Beti88]

So, what was the conclusion of yesterday's extracted texture discovery?

[monrapias]

bigstig wrote...

Here is a question, we have already established that there is no teleport technology in the Mass Effect universe

Yet the beam is just that. Even the guide calls it a "transport beam".

Thoughts?

the tiny relay on illos were pretty much the same, you were transported from the planet to the citadel, same as on me3, from earth to the citadel.

[waldstr18]

JustAidan wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

For the low EMS; destroy is the only option counter argument the counter-counter argument is that with low EMS you haven't spent much time building your army, giving less time for indoctrination.

then we have to agree on what we are talking about. are we discussing mass effect the real story or mass effect the game.

if its a real story i could accept the "not enough time" thingy, even though i still find it somewhat like grasping to straws, but if we are talking about mass effect the game, then why would i get rewarded for finishing less of it? you could now argue that bioware made a complete 180 and rewards player with bad ending options for investing more time in the game, but that again sounds again like straw grasping to me.

we are talking about a game here, right? otherwise i take back everything i said and i will spend the rest of my life preparing for the next reaper invasion.

[greywardencommander]

bigstig wrote...

@Wounder_Wolf

True it doesn't actually disprove IT, I just thought I'd flag up the difference that EMS makes. The interesting point to me is that synthesis is the only option which saves the galaxy.

Just rechecked the list, it isthe wrong way round. If you keep the base it is the first set, destroy the base snd its the 2nd set

If in terms of I.T. the 'give him a choice that's not really a choice just a trick to still get him to do what I want (like in my thread etc the psychology of a 'compromise') then 'saving the galaxy' might be Harbinger (or Shepard and Harbinger combined because he succumbs) showing look Shepard do this like I say and the galaxy just like you and Saren were wanting. Thus the developers might want us to choose synthesis (hence green and different colour) BECAUSE THEY WANT US INDOCTRINATED FOR THE DLC - what if that's the twist the stuff to do with destroy is just to still show look guys it was a trick Harbinger/Starchild lied because they were tricking you, you were still alive when you're synthetic in case people picked destroy not synthesis. Thus destroy and Synthesis might be the real 'good vs bad' debate. I.e. Control = bad A, Destroy = Bad B Synthesis = Good

Just another way of looking at it

[Stigweird85]

@greywardencommander

Going by the guide you can pick destroy or you can become a reaper with any EMS but synthesis is restricted to higher levels.

I haven't played it with low EMS though.

[greywardencommander]

waldstr18 wrote...

JustAidan wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

For the low EMS; destroy is the only option counter argument the counter-counter argument is that with low EMS you haven't spent much time building your army, giving less time for indoctrination.

then we have to agree on what we are talking about. are we discussing mass effect the real story or mass effect the game.

if its a real story i could accept the "not enough time" thingy, even though i still find it somewhat like grasping to straws, but if we are talking about mass effect the game, then why would i get rewarded for finishing less of it? you could now argue that bioware made a complete 180 and rewards player with bad ending options for investing more time in the game, but that again sounds again like straw grasping to me.

we are talking about a game here, right? otherwise i take back everything i said and i will spend the rest of my life preparing for the next reaper invasion.

destroy is only option with low EMS to ensure it's always picked even those who rush through and don't bother doing side stuff

[greywardencommander]

nyrocron wrote...

I did not see it back then but it was posted at Nov/2011 so i think this is the original leaked script: http://pastebin.com/KYJNWGug

I did just skim thorugh it and can't find very much differences to the final game (ending). If their statement that they changed the ending is true that would (in my opinion) support the theory that they implemented indoctrination as "real" ending.

don't forget for all we know 'lots of speculation etc' could mean regarding endings as they are then a whole other sheet based on plot of scenes after in ending DLC

[TrveOmegaSlayer]

andy69156915 wrote...

TrveOmegaSlayer wrote...

The whispers in last dream before attacking Cerberus calls Shep "Siha"
what does it mean?

You were playing female Shepard, weren't you? Siha is what Thane calls femShep, and the people who whisper in those scenes are all the people who have died that Shepard knew... Thane included.

No I weren't!!! O__O
Is it another PS3 bug? Has anyone the chance to check it on other platforms?

[Grasser]

The Major problem with the ending been real and not IT, is the normandy.
There is no way it could be traveling along a mass relay with the very squad you had next to you during the last sections, Apart from the fact Joker and your squad would prolly die for shep before they would ever abandon him/her.
Another thing Hacket would not let any Alliance ships quit the battle, Normandy included.
Also the Earth Mass relay is out by the edge of the solar system, not right next to Earth, would take him a fair while to even get there.
What I think has happened is they have Ran out of time and this what They've been able to release, This certainly would'nt be the first time a game's ending is incomplete.
The Link with all the unused Lines at the end indicating the Earth battle was going to be Larger with more charcters would support this as well.
regardless of this though, I still Enjoyed ME3 more than the previous two, soo much was improved and many things that fans asked for that was'nt in ME2 was in ME3, one thing I can't remember too well was, did people really hate the hammerhead and the car chase in LOTSB? cause niether of the two made it into ME3 sadly.

[greywardencommander]

TrveOmegaSlayer wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

TrveOmegaSlayer wrote...

Wait, wait I lost something
How Wintersun's Starchild is related to the game?

Did someone from Bioware mentioned the song?

the image for the song (i.e. album art) is an exact copy of the stargazer scene (hugely criticized) and the lyrics etc suggest the last 10 mins were a dream/indoctrination attempt.

Thus everyone picks up on stock image as oh my god it was really bad when in itself it was a clue.

hm...maybe I feel butthurt since I have that record from day 1 and didn't saw the relation...I support the indoc theory 100% but this things seems stretched to me

I posted all the lyrics etc and said how they could be linked (emphasis on how) the fact they'd use a stock image that just happens to have that title (starchild) and lyrics hinting at dreams and in the mind? You're right it may be stretched but technically so is everything in this thread in terms of after the fact everything in game linking to I.T. Hence why in my thread talks about the psychology of everything purely based on the 'ending sequence' from being hit by Harbinger onwards and doesn't talk about the legitimacy of all the clues prior to that because they're not important, you're not supposed to see them (again see my thread).

[JustAidan]

waldstr18 wrote...

then we have to agree on what we are talking about. are we discussing mass effect the real story or mass effect the game.

(see below)

waldstr18 wrote...
if its a real story i could accept the "not enough time" thingy, even though i still find it somewhat like grasping to straws, but if we are talking about mass effect the game, then why would i get rewarded for finishing less of it? you could now argue that bioware made a complete 180 and rewards player with bad ending options for investing more time in the game, but that again sounds again like straw grasping to me.

Not sure what you are going on about in the "rewarded" part

While some of the bits gathered are very much like grasping at straws most of the stuff that started the thread are quite solid.

For instance:

In the Destroy ending at high EMS how does Shepard survive surrounded by concret?
No concret on the Citadel, no way to survive the explosion, re-entry, lack of oxygen or fall to earth and he was specifically told by the Starchild that he would die if he chose Destroy.
Answer: He never left london in the first place.

Now there is an awful lot of evidence for it, go have a look at it all from lots of different sources afterwards if you want to call it straw grasping that is ok but I will be mentally cateloguing you in with people who don't 'believe' in evolution or the fact that the earth is round.

waldstr18 wrote...
we are talking about a game here, right? otherwise i take back everything i said and i will spend the rest of my life preparing for the next reaper invasion.

(from above) ah now I understand, Yes we are only considering in-game stuff and some PR stuff.

So much of the public annoucements are given in public relations language so that they don't give a straight answer making them very ambigious.

My opinion right now is either
A: This was their plan to get lots of press and unlock/sell the ending later.
B:They planned it, rushed to the end, threw an ending together and never removed the references.

Given the quality of the rest of the game I am leaning to A.

Modifié par JustAidan, 25 mars 2012 - 01:54 .

[estebanus]

greywardencommander wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

JustAidan wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

For the low EMS; destroy is the only option counter argument the counter-counter argument is that with low EMS you haven't spent much time building your army, giving less time for indoctrination.

then we have to agree on what we are talking about. are we discussing mass effect the real story or mass effect the game.

if its a real story i could accept the "not enough time" thingy, even though i still find it somewhat like grasping to straws, but if we are talking about mass effect the game, then why would i get rewarded for finishing less of it? you could now argue that bioware made a complete 180 and rewards player with bad ending options for investing more time in the game, but that again sounds again like straw grasping to me.

we are talking about a game here, right? otherwise i take back everything i said and i will spend the rest of my life preparing for the next reaper invasion.

destroy is only option with low EMS to ensure it's always picked even those who rush through and don't bother doing side stuff

That's not true. It depends on if you saved the collector base or not.
Saved collector-base+very low EMS= control only option available, earth is devastated, but humanity survives.
destroyed collector-base+very low EMS= destroy only option, earth is utterly destroyed, humanity is dead.

[greywardencommander]

Rifneno wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Or it could be just another trick for pulling us along.

If there is one thing I have learned about the gaming industry "leaked" can just as easily be a fancy way of saying "reveal."

Look at it this way, apprently someone was able to get their hands on the scribt and leak it, but as we approach PAX we have no hint or even clue at what they are going to reveal. No word about this "clarification" on the ending, nothing.

Curios if you ask me.

Actually there's a decent explanation for how the script leaked.  Microsoft was testing a dashboard update on Xbox Live.  Beta or something.  The beta dashboard unfortunately had something to get a demo of ME3.  The demo was nothing major and taken down very quickly, but some computer whizzes who downloaded it then transfered it to their PC and began dissecting the files.  Or so I've heard anyway.

I'm sure Bioware know how to make stuff like that not happen after all these years I've never seen it with anything else not to this magnitude anyway, that in itself was odd. Given the outcry about the endings in the script and more or less exactly the same, bar some details - odd aswell

[BleedingUranium]

waldstr18 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

i think i make a pretty valid point here. why do the indoctrination if you only leave the option to snap out of it anyway. doesnt seem efficient to me. and for your good and excellent points. they all sound like speculation to me. then again in the video i posted you see that there is clearly only one choice, and to add some speculation of my own: why would i get more wrong choices if i have more war assets? doesnt make sense to me.

anyways i only posted here to be able to tell you afterwards: "i called it" and "in your face!"

or come to think of it, maybe i want to be sucked in an endless discussion about whats real or not. well.. if i find the time.

I think the whole EMS buisness is kinda missing the point, and you could argue it either way.

Mass Effect is a game about choices, where everything's up to you, but that said, there are some things you're "supposed" to do, like recruit all the squadmates in ME2, or do side missions. You can chose to not do stuff, but you're "supposed" to do everything, regardless of how, who you bring, who you romance, whether you're Paragon, Renegade, or whether Mordin sings.

War Assets are the same thing, you're "supposed" to have 4000/5000+, just like you're "supposed" to have done all of the loyalty missions in ME2. You're able to not get enough EMS, but you get punished for it, just like Shepard can die in ME2, which obviously isn't "supposed" to happen.

Point is, don't think about EMS too much, however my take on why you get Destroy first and Synthesis last is not an in universe reason, but a gameplay reason. Someone who hasn't played (but somehow knows what order you get them in, let's ignore that) would expect a higher EMS gives you better options, as that's how things usually work, but you get Destroy, then Control, then Synthesis.

Why? Because that's the order, from worst to best, that Starchild wants you to pick them. He doesn't want you to pick Destroy (lowest EMS = worst option), knows you might not be sold on Control, and thinks you're most likely to be convinced by Synthesis (highest EMS = best option).

It's just more mind games, to make us think Destroy is the worst and Synthesis is the best.

Also, this is my first post

EDIT: Why do smilies show as * image removed * ?

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 25 mars 2012 - 01:59 .

[Gerbil Fetus]

EMS/Galatic readiness is what factors in your Fleet sizes and the power of the Crucible, how well it works.

With low EMS/readiness, it would be like the Sr2 from ME2 if you dont upgrade it...you get boned by the consequences. As for how it fits into the IT theory?

-your forces are not ready to take out the reapers or even keep them
Occupied for very long...you select destroy and the crucible blows everything up, reallistically its because its flawed and rushed. In the IT we could presume its because shep wakes up or attempts to- and The Reapers-who are pretty close to curbstomping the entire gathered armada, just kind of go

"well **** it. We tried. Hey! You guys! Were done with shepard, it didnt work! Lets just laser the **** out of everything!"

More or less.

Why that doesnt happen with a higher readiness/EMS is because they are too busy being held off by the armada, they ARE lasering the hell out of everything as fast as they can but there is too much to laser at.

Thats how it would work with IT i think.....