57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Beti88]

But whats up with the textures?

[greywardencommander]

Rifneno wrote...

Gerbil Fetus wrote...

- i even thought there might be chance saren could pull a Lazerus Project of his own abd come back! Because hey DA:O had a secret party member and the ME3 CE had talked about a secret character.
 (the one we got was awesome btw)

Hehe.  Collector's Edition indeed.

ME3 should have been Reaper's edition :/ (said so many times but felt like saying it lol)

[greywardencommander]

estebanus wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

JustAidan wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

For the low EMS; destroy is the only option counter argument the counter-counter argument is that with low EMS you haven't spent much time building your army, giving less time for indoctrination.

then we have to agree on what we are talking about. are we discussing mass effect the real story or mass effect the game.

if its a real story i could accept the "not enough time" thingy, even though i still find it somewhat like grasping to straws, but if we are talking about mass effect the game, then why would i get rewarded for finishing less of it? you could now argue that bioware made a complete 180 and rewards player with bad ending options for investing more time in the game, but that again sounds again like straw grasping to me.

we are talking about a game here, right? otherwise i take back everything i said and i will spend the rest of my life preparing for the next reaper invasion.

destroy is only option with low EMS to ensure it's always picked even those who rush through and don't bother doing side stuff

That's not true. It depends on if you saved the collector base or not.
Saved collector-base+very low EMS= control only option available, earth is devastated, but humanity survives.
destroyed collector-base+very low EMS= destroy only option, earth is utterly destroyed, humanity is dead.

point still stands lol as a Paragon you only get destroy thus going renegade in ending (if only choice) weird to me

[TrveOmegaSlayer]

I think the point where Shep starts to REALLY fall apart, where is judgment capacity is questioned is inside the Cerberus base when he checks the vid log about Project Lazarus, since he started to see that, willing or not, he could be manipulated

[SirLugash]

waldstr18 wrote...

JustAidan wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

For the low EMS; destroy is the only option counter argument the counter-counter argument is that with low EMS you haven't spent much time building your army, giving less time for indoctrination.

then we have to agree on what we are talking about. are we discussing mass effect the real story or mass effect the game.

if its a real story i could accept the "not enough time" thingy, even though i still find it somewhat like grasping to straws, but if we are talking about mass effect the game, then why would i get rewarded for finishing less of it? you could now argue that bioware made a complete 180 and rewards player with bad ending options for investing more time in the game, but that again sounds again like straw grasping to me.

we are talking about a game here, right? otherwise i take back everything i said and i will spend the rest of my life preparing for the next reaper invasion.

I guess you forgot simething, there are two types of Destroy ending:
One with low EMS which results in the end you posted, and one with high EMS in which the "Shep alive" scene is shown.
So you could say, with low EMS, your support forces weren't able to defend you so that you actually died on the battlefield, or if it is high enough, you will break free from indoc and eventually wake up.
It's just one possible explanation, I'm sure someone else would find a better fitting one ^^
And yes, at least for me, it is just speculation but with some strong points here and there.

[JustAidan]

TrveOmegaSlayer wrote...

I think the point where Shep starts to REALLY fall apart, where is judgment capacity is questioned is inside the Cerberus base when he checks the vid log about Project Lazarus, since he started to see that, willing or not, he could be manipulated

Foreshadowing^_^

[BleedingUranium]

waldstr18 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these. "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones. I have a single meh one! DISPROVEN!" El oh el.

i think i make a pretty valid point here. why do the indoctrination if you only leave the option to snap out of it anyway. doesnt seem efficient to me. and for your good and excellent points. they all sound like speculation to me. then again in the video i posted you see that there is clearly only one choice, and to add some speculation of my own: why would i get more wrong choices if i have more war assets? doesnt make sense to me.

anyways i only posted here to be able to tell you afterwards: "i called it" and "in your face!"

or come to think of it, maybe i want to be sucked in an endless discussion about whats real or not. well.. if i find the time.

I think the whole EMS buisness is kinda missing the point, and you could argue it either way.

Mass Effect is a game about choices, where everything's up to you, but that said, there are some things you're "supposed" to do, like recruit all the squadmates in ME2, or do side missions. You can chose to not do stuff, but you're "supposed" to do everything, regardless of how, who you bring, who you romance, whether you're Paragon, Renegade, or whether Mordin sings.

War Assets are the same thing, you're "supposed" to have 4000/5000+, just like you're "supposed" to have done all of the loyalty missions in ME2. You're able to not get enough EMS, but you get punished for it, just like Shepard can die in ME2, which obviously isn't "supposed" to happen.

Point is, don't think about EMS too much, however my take on why you get Destroy first and Synthesis last is not an in universe reason, but a gameplay reason. Someone who hasn't played (but somehow knows what order you get them in, let's ignore that) would expect a higher EMS gives you better options, as that's how things usually work, but you get Destroy, then Control, then Synthesis.

Why? Because that's the order, from worst to best, that Starchild wants you to pick them. He doesn't want you to pick Destroy (lowest EMS = worst option), knows you might not be sold on Control, and thinks you're most likely to be convinced by Synthesis (highest EMS = best option).

It's just more mind games, to make us think Destroy is the worst and Synthesis is the best.

Also, this is my first post

EDIT: Why do smilies show as * image removed * ?

Reposted cause everyone missed it...

[Gerbil Fetus]

Also its sort of the ME3 version of Shepard dying in ME2.
Youd do it to say you did it but youd have to be pretty stupid to accidentally do it.

Hackett: Shepard! Wheres the armada you were meant to get?
Stupidly antisocial Shepard: They didnt deserve to join up in my Fleet! Lets go man, im ready! Im all you need! Ive already got like 3 notches on my belt killing these things!
Hackett: its just....thats not enough...
Shepard: I SAID BRING IT ON!!
*charges at all the reapers by launching himself in an SR2 Escape Pod*

[greywardencommander]

greywardencommander wrote...

bigstig wrote...

@Wounder_Wolf

True it doesn't actually disprove IT, I just thought I'd flag up the difference that EMS makes. The interesting point to me is that synthesis is the only option which saves the galaxy.

Just rechecked the list, it isthe wrong way round. If you keep the base it is the first set, destroy the base snd its the 2nd set

If in terms of I.T. the 'give him a choice that's not really a choice just a trick to still get him to do what I want (like in my thread etc the psychology of a 'compromise') then 'saving the galaxy' might be Harbinger (or Shepard and Harbinger combined because he succumbs) showing look Shepard do this like I say and the galaxy just like you and Saren were wanting. Thus the developers might want us to choose synthesis (hence green and different colour) BECAUSE THEY WANT US INDOCTRINATED FOR THE DLC - what if that's the twist the stuff to do with destroy is just to still show look guys it was a trick Harbinger/Starchild lied because they were tricking you, you were still alive when you're synthetic in case people picked destroy not synthesis. Thus destroy and Synthesis might be the real 'good vs bad' debate. I.e. Control = bad A, Destroy = Bad B Synthesis = Good

Just another way of looking at it

Just going to repost this in case it was missed, Synthesis might be the ending even if I.T. is true because they want you indoctrinated (they couldn't work out gameplay mechanic so did it this way, i.e. out of game too)
Like I said in my thread, the psychology of compromise and the fact it's the 'magical ending' that isn't destroy (which Harbinger leads you away from) nor is it control (how's that different to TIM and doesn't end the threat, who's to say in the long run Shepard ends up controlled and the reapers just come back) thus the gamer picks it because what's the point in part synthetic part organic (reapers) harvesting part synthetic part organic...end result - you're indoctrinated like Saren THAT'S THE TWIST (equally the fact Saren is right all along might be the twist in the real endings whatever)
Just something to ponder

[waldstr18]

greywardencommander wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

JustAidan wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

For the low EMS; destroy is the only option counter argument the counter-counter argument is that with low EMS you haven't spent much time building your army, giving less time for indoctrination.

then we have to agree on what we are talking about. are we discussing mass effect the real story or mass effect the game.

if its a real story i could accept the "not enough time" thingy, even though i still find it somewhat like grasping to straws, but if we are talking about mass effect the game, then why would i get rewarded for finishing less of it? you could now argue that bioware made a complete 180 and rewards player with bad ending options for investing more time in the game, but that again sounds again like straw grasping to me.

we are talking about a game here, right? otherwise i take back everything i said and i will spend the rest of my life preparing for the next reaper invasion.

destroy is only option with low EMS to ensure it's always picked even those who rush through and don't bother doing side stuff

they allowed shepard to die in the last game. and with him being back in the normandy having to do the last mission again after the end credits, i dont see why they could not let us make the wrong choice. that would actually raise the replay value a lot, just like it did for the second game.

but another thing. i really have to hand it to you guys, you really thought that indoctrination thing through. you know what i think? i think they just didnt have enough time to make proper end videos. i actually wrote something about that under the changes ... feedback .. something topic.

oh, even though i have to admit i propably havent read all your reasons, but for the ones screaming plot holes:
there are more of those in the game. for example the blood pack is all vorcha now? and my paragon shepard girl shoots its leader without hesitation? whats up with that? also samara said in the last game that there are only three ardat-yakshi in existens and a few month later we visit a whole monastery full of them. people make mistakes. that combined with the leaking of the endings and the pressure to release on time, id say its understandable a few things were not properly thought through in the end.

another thing. wasnt there a mass effect book or something filled with wrong facts? as far as i know they "patched" that as well. they just released a new fixed edition, without fans having to study space magic for 2 semesters. what im trying to say is: its not your job to fix this. if it was indoctrination im sure they would have told us in the end. but again, im not sure if it was a book about mass effect, yet my point still seems valid.

[TrveOmegaSlayer]

JustAidan wrote...

TrveOmegaSlayer wrote...

I think the point where Shep starts to REALLY fall apart, where is judgment capacity is questioned is inside the Cerberus base when he checks the vid log about Project Lazarus, since he started to see that, willing or not, he could be manipulated

Foreshadowing^_^

hm...
a man like TIM leaving stuff around for Shep to see?
That's strange.
The vids with Kai-Leng...
prove that Shep is weak compared to Kai-Leng and weak for his emotions and that he's not a threat, just a tool, since the Counsil was considered more important

[Rifneno]

waldstr18 wrote...

i think i make a pretty valid point here. why do the indoctrination if you only leave the option to snap out of it anyway. doesnt seem efficient to me. and for your good and excellent points. they all sound like speculation to me. then again in the video i posted you see that there is clearly only one choice, and to add some speculation of my own: why would i get more wrong choices if i have more war assets? doesnt make sense to me.

Sounds like speculation to me! Hehe. You seriously think we should waste our time arguing one weak point that you think you're the first person to bring up, so you can dismiss every possible refute to it as 'speculation' and such all the while giving a blanket dismissal to all the evidence brought up by proponents? Maybe somebody else will bite, but I'm not interested in debating anyone who thinks only their points (or in your case, point, since you only have one) deserves more than a handwave.

anyways i only posted here to be able to tell you afterwards: "i called it" and "in your face!"

Yes, well, good luck with that.

ZiggyPanda wrote...

Theories aside there are more matters to take into account, mainly the whole franchise aspect, just like Halo 3 said it'd wrap up masterchief's story and low and behold we have Halo 4 incoming. I expect that the reason the endings all funneled into a set of similar conclusions is because they are gonna make Mass Effect 4 or whatever, whether it's shepard or not. EA ain't gonna let Mass Effect die with so much success, like all corporations they are gonna milk the brand dry before theylay it to rest.

Agreed. But they've told us that ME3 was the end of Shepard's story but not the end of Mass Effect. They haven't elaborated but they very strongly implied (or flat out said, I forget which) that there'll be more Mass Effect. Just not starring Shepard.

Grasser wrote...

The Major problem with the ending been real and not IT, is the normandy.
There is no way it could be traveling along a mass relay with the very squad you had next to you during the last sections, Apart from the fact Joker and your squad would prolly die for shep before they would ever abandon him/her.
Another thing Hacket would not let any Alliance ships quit the battle, Normandy included.
Also the Earth Mass relay is out by the edge of the solar system, not right next to Earth, would take him a fair while to even get there..

The community relations manager told us that the Normandy did not and could not have reached the Sol relay. Given the following: a) we see 2 moons and lots of plantlife in the Normandy crash scene, the only planet in the Sol system that can support plantlife is Earth (even if Luna and Mars could be argued with technological advancement, we've seen them and they don't have it), c) the nearest neighboring star system, Alpha Centauri, is thousands of times farther away than the relay... we can assume one of two things. Either she failed elementary school science class, or she was giving us a pretty significant hint that the Normandy crash scene never happened outside of Shepard's messed up head. Needless to say, I'm thinking the latter.

[greywardencommander]

BleedingUranium wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these. "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones. I have a single meh one! DISPROVEN!" El oh el.

i think i make a pretty valid point here. why do the indoctrination if you only leave the option to snap out of it anyway. doesnt seem efficient to me. and for your good and excellent points. they all sound like speculation to me. then again in the video i posted you see that there is clearly only one choice, and to add some speculation of my own: why would i get more wrong choices if i have more war assets? doesnt make sense to me.

anyways i only posted here to be able to tell you afterwards: "i called it" and "in your face!"

or come to think of it, maybe i want to be sucked in an endless discussion about whats real or not. well.. if i find the time.

I think the whole EMS buisness is kinda missing the point, and you could argue it either way.

Mass Effect is a game about choices, where everything's up to you, but that said, there are some things you're "supposed" to do, like recruit all the squadmates in ME2, or do side missions. You can chose to not do stuff, but you're "supposed" to do everything, regardless of how, who you bring, who you romance, whether you're Paragon, Renegade, or whether Mordin sings.

War Assets are the same thing, you're "supposed" to have 4000/5000+, just like you're "supposed" to have done all of the loyalty missions in ME2. You're able to not get enough EMS, but you get punished for it, just like Shepard can die in ME2, which obviously isn't "supposed" to happen.

Point is, don't think about EMS too much, however my take on why you get Destroy first and Synthesis last is not an in universe reason, but a gameplay reason. Someone who hasn't played (but somehow knows what order you get them in, let's ignore that) would expect a higher EMS gives you better options, as that's how things usually work, but you get Destroy, then Control, then Synthesis.

Why? Because that's the order, from worst to best, that Starchild wants you to pick them. He doesn't want you to pick Destroy (lowest EMS = worst option), knows you might not be sold on Control, and thinks you're most likely to be convinced by Synthesis (highest EMS = best option).

It's just more mind games, to make us think Destroy is the worst and Synthesis is the best.

Also, this is my first post

EDIT: Why do smilies show as * image removed * ?

Reposted cause everyone missed it...

if it's true lowest EMS & control collectors base you get only destroy ending but no survival (or was it control i forget)
If it's true lowest EMS & destroy collectors base you only get destroy ending but with survival (I think that's what someone said)
End result either resist if they're both destroy - you're supposed to destroy
if one's control and one's destroy - you succumb to indoctrination or don't

It's like I say in my thread about the psychology of the last 10 mins alone, the order of the choices is odd and basic psychology leading to compromise
You want to destroy - he doesn't like that
He wants you to control - you don't like that
So magic option is synthesis so everyone chooses synthesis because it's not really giving in even though you don't defeat the reapers
Say the magic option is synthesis and bioware expect you all to pick synthesisit leads you to being the new saren (it's what he wanted) so are indoctrinated thus I.T. is true.
They account for people who pick control - you sided with the reapers and become the new TIM - you are indoctrinated, I.T. is true
They account for people who pick destroy - you EITHER resist it all together OR you are still almost indoctrinated but enough of your mind remains that you can resist it in the DLC. I.T. Is true

Maybe even say the endings stand based on simple psychology of compromise, the plot twist...Synthesis is the right choice, Saren was right all along 

AND that my friends is how I.T. can be true regardless of choice

Modifié par greywardencommander, 25 mars 2012 - 02:22 .

[nyrocron]

Some people still keep posting that they think BioWare may have had the indoctrination idea and have removed it and we find the clues they left behind.
The thing about Harbinger being introduced to the beam scene after the leak I posted opposes that. I think it is more likely that they came up with the indoctrination twist after the leak and would not have changed it again. Or the leak was intentional, then it is even more likely that it is what is not in the leaked script: indoctrination.

I would like to hear what else Harbinger could mean, if not indoctrination.

Modifié par nyrocron, 25 mars 2012 - 02:33 .

[greywardencommander]

nyrocron wrote...

Some people still keep posting that they think BioWare may have had the indoctrination idea and have removed it and we find the clues they left behind.
The thing about Harbinger being introduced to the beam scene after the leak I posted opposes that. I think it is more likely that they came up with the indoctrination twist after the leak and would not have changed it again. Or the leak was intentional, then it is even more likely that it is what is not in the leaked script: indoctrination.

I say above maybe the 'magical compromise' option Synthesis is the biggest clue, they want you indoctrinated like Saren (that was his ideology, combining synthetic and organic, him with the reapers). Thus DLC might have you indoctrinated (or suffering from the attempt in the case of destroy) like Saren and that's the twist (he's your first enemy in ME1 and the information regarding indoctrination etc stems from him, about him and sovereign etc)

[Eylos]

this theory is the only hope for me that the ending is not horrible

[greywardencommander]

waldstr18 wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

JustAidan wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

For the low EMS; destroy is the only option counter argument the counter-counter argument is that with low EMS you haven't spent much time building your army, giving less time for indoctrination.

then we have to agree on what we are talking about. are we discussing mass effect the real story or mass effect the game.

if its a real story i could accept the "not enough time" thingy, even though i still find it somewhat like grasping to straws, but if we are talking about mass effect the game, then why would i get rewarded for finishing less of it? you could now argue that bioware made a complete 180 and rewards player with bad ending options for investing more time in the game, but that again sounds again like straw grasping to me.

we are talking about a game here, right? otherwise i take back everything i said and i will spend the rest of my life preparing for the next reaper invasion.

destroy is only option with low EMS to ensure it's always picked even those who rush through and don't bother doing side stuff

they allowed shepard to die in the last game. and with him being back in the normandy having to do the last mission again after the end credits, i dont see why they could not let us make the wrong choice. that would actually raise the replay value a lot, just like it did for the second game.

but another thing. i really have to hand it to you guys, you really thought that indoctrination thing through. you know what i think? i think they just didnt have enough time to make proper end videos. i actually wrote something about that under the changes ... feedback .. something topic.

oh, even though i have to admit i propably havent read all your reasons, but for the ones screaming plot holes:
there are more of those in the game. for example the blood pack is all vorcha now? and my paragon shepard girl shoots its leader without hesitation? whats up with that? also samara said in the last game that there are only three ardat-yakshi in existens and a few month later we visit a whole monastery full of them. people make mistakes. that combined with the leaking of the endings and the pressure to release on time, id say its understandable a few things were not properly thought through in the end.

another thing. wasnt there a mass effect book or something filled with wrong facts? as far as i know they "patched" that as well. they just released a new fixed edition, without fans having to study space magic for 2 semesters. what im trying to say is: its not your job to fix this. if it was indoctrination im sure they would have told us in the end. but again, im not sure if it was a book about mass effect, yet my point still seems valid.

we've addressed every single plot hole thrown at us so far (the OP hasn't been updated to incorporate anywhere near all of these) including many of the ones you've said, even regarding the 'correcting the book' more reason for them to make sure the endings are water-tight canon wise and plot hole wouldn't you think?

The fact that you say you've not read a lot of the stuff and even ignore the title 'hallucination' seems pretty clear we think Shepard is going to wake up after being hit because the last 10 mins (i.e. the only part in the whole game that's off really and where the game 'falls apart') is in his mind.

If you're still not convinced read my thread on why the last sequence from Harby beam onwards are enough to suggest indoctrination attempt (I don't delve into the legitimacy of any clues, I even point out everything in the game up until that point can be interpreted to be I.T. which if you read my thread is the point) and how not putting it into the public domain (i.e. real world indoctrination) and having it happen in game weakens the effect in terms of a plot twist. Not quite as dramatic if you just reload the save at the beginning of the final sequence and do it again straight away (if you wake up and carry on), you have to really think about the endings to appreciate the brilliance (if I.T. is true and real endings, clarification and explaining etc is on the way)
 
I also talk about why it won't effect E.A. in real world terms (another criticism) and why the point is that the last 10 mins are enough to make you think illusion such as the switch in colours, the way the options are presented, the slow motion like the other dreams etc. This alone was supposed to be enough (maybe why they're surprised at the vicious backlash) to point out that something's not right.

I also point out how real ending DLC could take every choice re. the end into account in other words there are wrong choice, maybe destroy (thus surviving) is the 'best current ending' just like hang on a second ME2 where you could die sure but that didn't happen in ME3 did it, still played as Shepard because you couldn't magically transfer over a save file where he's dead, why isn't that any less valid here with a retcon because they expected you to pick destroy or synthesis (I explain why the latter in my thread).

Everything prior to the last sequence could be coincidence I'm not disputing it but read my thread about the last 10 mins alone using simple psychology and come back and tell me why on the last scene along you don't think it's at least possible without coming in nearly 900 pages in assuming you've brought up new counter arguments and bang there goes I.T.

If we're wrong and it's not I.T feel free to come in and say haha guys epic fail but don't make out like us debating it and coming up with genuine reasons for us makes us stupid. It means we had faith in Bioware and thus Mass Effect being so amazing it deserved a brilliant ending, something that we don't think it has if the endings are what they are.

At least we've done something more substantial beyond 'bioware mucked up just because of bad writing and they suck', This might well be true but we think the rest of the game, and the series as a whole (it has flaws) is so beautifully crafted lore and story wise, so deep and moving that the endings as they are without I.T. to real endings is nothing short of criminal to the whole franchise and to Bioware themselves.

Modifié par greywardencommander, 25 mars 2012 - 03:04 .

[TrveOmegaSlayer]

Cerberus last mission...from the area where you listen to the vidlogs about TIM to the TIM's room, it seems to me that the plan of the area is the same as the final area in the Citadel but the "architecture" is different

min 3:41

min 4:30

ramp then circular hall with console in the middle

[ChuckieJ]

greywardencommander wrote...
That is interesting thank you for that information. I doubt anybody remembers but I posted that I am an MA Psychology student particularly interested in Social Psychology so my approach was similar to yours in using what I know.

A very long time ago after someone pointed about we've been conditioned (basic psychology again) to know blue is good red is bad across the series and are rewarded as such. Thus it is odd they should suddenly be reversed with TIM and Anderson (a renegade being blue and a paragon red). Thus at the time I pointed out to back the point up that it's stroop test. In the stroop test they deliberately mess with your primitive and basic processing (colour, shapes, structure of a word) to make us rely on our higher level processing (semantics mainly I.e meaning). In the stroop task they have the word green and make it the colour red. They then ask people to say if the colour is green or red, you're supposed to say red but a lot of people say green because they read the word rather than the colour. They do it in other ways but it's all based on the same idea, disrupt the basic processing to make you think about it. Sound familiar?
They make you think about the choice (including the walk so you commit to it rather than a dialogue choice) because you're supposed to look at the colours and then that it was TIM and Anderson representing the choices and realise it's deliberately wrong to make you see you need to destroy like Anderson. They do this deliberately because everything else had to be subtle and might not have been enough of a hint. Why because you're not supposed to know you're in the process of being indoctrinated like I say in that post you quote.

I think it's awesome that you are bringing this stuff up. I peripherally work with psychologists (neuropsychologists through my work as a database manager for the UF Movement Disorders Center). The color change is Stroop-like and that's pretty cool.  The walk is absolutely to give you a chance to think about it. I actually started walking toward Blue then realized that I had no reason to believe Control would be permanent (I did not realize it was a trick though, merely that I had no reason to trust the StarChild). I then went to Destroy because 1) It's what I came to do in the first place 2) Forcing Synthesis on everyone is not fair and is far from "neutral".

I think the ending is so cool now. The problem is that they have to wait at least a month from release to explain it to everyone, meanwhile people are returning the game. Not everyone is going to go to the Bioware forums or find that Forbes.com article. Not everyone has good internet access either. 

I made a blog post about the situation as a whole because I find it so interesting. 
Bioware’s Mass Effect 3 ending: artistically brilliant & fiscally foolish [MASSIVE SPOILERS]

Modifié par ChuckieJ, 25 mars 2012 - 03:08 .

[ChuckieJ]

greywardencommander wrote...
I say above maybe the 'magical compromise' option Synthesis is the biggest clue, they want you indoctrinated like Saren (that was his ideology, combining synthetic and organic, him with the reapers). Thus DLC might have you indoctrinated (or suffering from the attempt in the case of destroy) like Saren and that's the twist (he's your first enemy in ME1 and the information regarding indoctrination etc stems from him, about him and sovereign etc)

Totally. Not only that, Bioware said you do not need to play multiplayer to get the best ending. And yet it is incredibly difficult (or is it impossible?) to get the Synthesis option to appear without multiplayer or the iOS apps.

EDIT: You get more wrong choices if you have more War Assets because the Reapers have to work harder to convince you. 

The situation you end up in is also akin to the Monty Hall Problem from the game show Let's Make a Deal:
http://en.wikipedia....ty_Hall_problem

Modifié par ChuckieJ, 25 mars 2012 - 03:22 .

[Cucobr]

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

pretty much what you said.

[greywardencommander]

ChuckieJ wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...
That is interesting thank you for that information. I doubt anybody remembers but I posted that I am an MA Psychology student particularly interested in Social Psychology so my approach was similar to yours in using what I know.

A very long time ago after someone pointed about we've been conditioned (basic psychology again) to know blue is good red is bad across the series and are rewarded as such. Thus it is odd they should suddenly be reversed with TIM and Anderson (a renegade being blue and a paragon red). Thus at the time I pointed out to back the point up that it's stroop test. In the stroop test they deliberately mess with your primitive and basic processing (colour, shapes, structure of a word) to make us rely on our higher level processing (semantics mainly I.e meaning). In the stroop task they have the word green and make it the colour red. They then ask people to say if the colour is green or red, you're supposed to say red but a lot of people say green because they read the word rather than the colour. They do it in other ways but it's all based on the same idea, disrupt the basic processing to make you think about it. Sound familiar?
They make you think about the choice (including the walk so you commit to it rather than a dialogue choice) because you're supposed to look at the colours and then that it was TIM and Anderson representing the choices and realise it's deliberately wrong to make you see you need to destroy like Anderson. They do this deliberately because everything else had to be subtle and might not have been enough of a hint. Why because you're not supposed to know you're in the process of being indoctrinated like I say in that post you quote.

I think it's awesome that you are bringing this stuff up. I peripherally work with psychologists (neuropsychologists through my work as a database manager for the UF Movement Disorders Center). The color change is Stroop-like and that's pretty cool.  The walk is absolutely to give you a chance to think about it. I actually started walking toward Blue then realized that I had no reason to believe Control would be permanent (I did not realize it was a trick though, merely that I had no reason to trust the StarChild). I then went to Destroy because 1) It's what I came to do in the first place 2) Forcing Synthesis on everyone is not fair and is far from "neutral".

I think the ending is so cool now. The problem is that they have to wait at least a month from release to explain it to everyone, meanwhile people are returning the game. Not everyone is going to go to the Bioware forums or find that Forbes.com article. Not everyone has good internet access either. 

If you read all my thread stuff you'll see everything I say is simple psychology (i.e. it's primitive) explains why the 10 minutes alone. I don't bother going into clues, such as it's in slow motion like the previous dream, before that in the series as that's just fitting to the I.T which I say, is the point of what you're supposed to do, not realise until the end. The clues prior to the end to me aren't even the interesting part or imo the point.

Why is everything I do approached this way which some people seemed to find odd? I'm a psychologist (i.e. I study psychology not a clinical one or anything just if anyone got confused when I said this earlier). More specifically I'm a Psychology MA student that focuses on social psychology (thus all this behaviour about ME3 is of huge interest to me and may even become something to focus future research on as I love social psychology based on media, entertainment, internet communication etc). 

Everything I state in my thread about the 10 mins making everything odd and supporting I.T. is all based on primitive psychological functioning such as the stroop test and the psychology of compromise and how the order presented is odd and the order is to get you to compromise (become indoctrinated) without you realising (even explaining that maybe synthesis is the real ending because we're supposed to choose it based on the fact it was a magical solution presented last and thus become indoctrinated like Saren). So we're supposed to realise everything's somehow wrong (I sure did) in that last sequence.

Modifié par greywardencommander, 25 mars 2012 - 03:18 .

[greywardencommander]

Cucobr wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

indoctrination theory is easily disproofed. just watch how many choices you get here:



if it was indoctrination and we had to choose the red option to snap out of it, why is it the only possible option here? the reapers noticed that shepard hadnt enough war assets so they werent interested in successfully mind controlling him? they just made a ... trial run (?) for the next hero with a bigger army?

and for those saying the ending went over everyones heads: ever heard of the emperors new cloth?

some of these explanations ... really? the kid smiled? shepard bled from the same spot anderson was shot? or my personal favorite: "do you hear that humm or is it just me?"
had to be indoctrination... what else could it have been? vega hears a humming sound. case and point.

It's always hilarious when we get one of these.  "Nevermind your 20 excellent points, 30 good ones, and 4724 meh ones.  I have a single meh one!  DISPROVEN!"  El oh el.

pretty much what you said.

I point out re. control, destroy and synthesis that the colour is important. The colour in the end is the opposite or if you've played properly you're presented with a magical compromise. That's odd in itself, read my thread if you don't get what I mean re. the colour and compromise stuff.

[Kanon777]

I just have one question for you guys. How will you react if, in april, Bioware announces a dlc that clarifies things better (by addins scenes/dialogue choices that expand on the endings) and say nothing about indoc?

Will you continue to insist they wanted this to be real or not?

[TrveOmegaSlayer]

tobito113 wrote...

I just have one question for you guys. How will you react if, in april, Bioware announces a dlc that clarifies things better (by addins scenes/dialogue choices that expand on the endings) and say nothing about indoc?

Will you continue to insist they wanted this to be real or not?

How would you react if they say this theory is real and who negates it has been wrong for a month?
We would react in the same way I guess.