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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#22026
Kyzee

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Denvian wrote...

Hunter_Wolf wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

beank wrote...

Sammuthegreat wrote...

So... I'll just put this here...

(No doubt already posted)


What does it say?

the link goes straight to the twitter sign in page for me....

Posted ImageJessica Merizan[/b]‏@JessicaMerizan
@PaceBreaker23 people on the forums are doing it FAR better than I ever could have: http://social.biowar...-9727423-1.html

a direct link to this very thread


The unfortunate downside now though is any intrigue that was there, is tarnished because of the outcry. EVEN IF the theory was true and Bioware was going to go with it, the people openly against the theory will be convinced that they took it from the fans so it wouldn't be a legit ending in their eyes. Which is unfortunate because even her response is a little sketchy but of course a dev isn't going to spoil their work for you.


Not if they already have plans in the works and are going to reveal them on april 6th.  


There's no way to convince everyone. Some people are entrenched in their views and nothing anyone says will convinced them otherwise. To use the quote, "Haters are going to hate." I sadly think that that's the case with the people who are still raging--they case see past their emotions. They just want to be angry at this point. :?

#22027
Cobra's_back

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TrveOmegaSlayer wrote...

The whispers in last dream before attacking Cerberus calls Shep "Siha"
what does it mean?


I found this "One of the warrior-angels of the goddess Arashu. Fierce in wrath." Mass effect 2 Thane's romance name for female Shepard. 

#22028
earth_angel

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SirLugash wrote...

Whether or not those people find a "new" ending legit remains to be seen.
They don't have to hate it necessarily, they would might like it as well.
IF there will be something coming that is.


The new ending might be legit for one reason : in the book that comes with the collector edition there is a nice sentence about Tim being the last boss. But I have not been fighting him at all ! And they say that tim's weapon in this game is intelligence not strength. And on the picture tim is more husk like than when we meet him!

So written datas can confirm that IT was bioware's choice before ME3 was released.

Modifié par earth_angel, 25 mars 2012 - 07:58 .


#22029
earth_angel

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Kyzee wrote...

There's
no way to convince everyone. Some people are entrenched in their views
and nothing anyone says will convinced them otherwise. To use the quote,
"Haters are going to hate." I sadly think that that's the case with the
people who are still raging--they case see past their emotions. They
just want to be angry at this point. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

There is an easy on : having the new ending being closer to what bioware said about ME3 before release.

Modifié par earth_angel, 25 mars 2012 - 08:00 .


#22030
Denvian

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earth_angel wrote...

SirLugash wrote...

Whether or not those people find a "new" ending legit remains to be seen.
They don't have to hate it necessarily, they would might like it as well.
IF there will be something coming that is.


The new ending might be legit for one reason : in the book that comes with the collector edition there is a nice sentence about Tim being the last boss. But I have not been fighting him at all ! And they say that tim's weapon in this game is intelligence not strength. And on the picture tim is more husk like than when we meet him!

So written datas can confirm that IT was bioware's choice before ME3 was released.


They said something about removing the last TIM fight becuase it felt, "too video gamey" and liked that the show down between TIM was more cerebral and talking.

#22031
greywardencommander

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beank wrote...

Im still on the fence about it....

he (she?) is asking for clarification. The link to this post could be a brush off. "I cant give you any clarification. Here is an 880+ topic for you to get lost in till we can give you an answer".

What better way to buy time than to link to a topic that will take days to get your barring on instead of linking to a youtube video that does the same thing in minuets.

If it is a hint, then the game is over, there is nothing left to discuss. She flat out told us that the work done in this post is true....


she (Jessica) is doing that though she is saying 'look guys the ending's aren't what they seem'

the hint that indoctrination was true (a sequence is dismissed based on a gameplay mechanic not the idea itself, why would a story angle be dismissed because the actual physical movement of the player affects it?)

I.T./hallucination (or have you ignored countless posts telling you such by me especially) in this particular thread can be interpreted based on the idea it's the battle of the mind, a hallucination (hence the specific reference) and that Shepard is knocked out on Earth and yet to wake up thus the game is far from over (and we never say that, or at least haven't for a long time hence constant references to DLC and what will happen as a result of your three choices)

You may say the I.T. is based on the fact it all happened and are indoctrinated and I'd say yes to begin with (even in this thread perhaps) but since then it has steadily become 'not it happened' but 'it only happens in your mind'
Anderson = unindoctrinated self you need to resist Harbinger, TIM = indoctrinated side wanting to give in, Shepard himself =you, your decision is his willpower either giving in or resisting, Control, Synthesis = indoctrinated either like TIM or Saren (in terms of ideology) - destroy = resist. (I even say maybe they want you to choose Synthesis as the 'less of evils way out' because they WANT you to be indoctrinated to be like Saren thus that's the twist, you end up being like Saren)

Let me put it this way it's an elaborate (based on ME universe) he woke up and it was all a dream (pretty awful plot device in most writing admittedly) but in the context of indoctrination it becomes so much more than that and makes sense and explains a lot of stuff without just saying the ending is 'bad writing, plot holes that they forgot about and space magic' and having nothing else to say other than just CHANGE THE ENDING'

If the endings are as they are at least we've made an attempt to give Bioware the biggest get out of jail free card there is - rewrite ending because the last 10 mins happened nowhere but your mind so you can do what you like when Shepard wakes up thus people who don't like the ending get to be happy they can still influence the endings, those who like the endings might go great lets see what else happens post-script.

If you say 'where is all this stuff' I'd say it's scattered all over the 870 pages but this is the general point and to all of us it is now head canon intented or not and is the only way to make ME3 replayable (or any of them) at all is the belief that he wakes up on Earth having been knocked out (indoctrinated or not) and the war continues.

Long story short if you don't like the endings GET ON BOARD WE WANT REAL ENDINGS AND THIS MAKES IT HAPPEN WITH DLC BASED ON THIS IDEA, we want endings that matter, we want ones that actually are impacted by your decisions (like the fact you've reconciled the geth-quarian war) we want ones that at the end you go 'so what Shepard is dead, so what my crew are dead' I got the closure I needed to be happy with my decisions.

Modifié par greywardencommander, 25 mars 2012 - 08:04 .


#22032
Epantiras

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Shepard surviving in the "destruction" ending alone should be enough to prove that the indoctrination theory is correct. How can he/she survive the fall from the exploding Citadel into Earth's atmosphere? That was clearly an hallucination caused by indoctrination. Good job Bioware for tricking me.

#22033
JustAidan

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Epantiras wrote...

Shepard surviving in the "destruction" ending alone should be enough to prove that the indoctrination theory is correct. How can he/she survive the fall from the exploding Citadel into Earth's atmosphere? That was clearly an hallucination caused by indoctrination. Good job Bioware for tricking me.


Yep, that was about 600 pages ago, you should see the stuff that was found after.:lol:

For example, did you know that pretty much all the stuff in the last 10 minutes is from your memory. The pipe you shoot is from the human proto-reaper (remember THOSE pipes) in ME2.

In fairness Bioware got me too, I had heard/seen the ending in advance of getting the game now I wonder what choice I would have made if I hadn't heard they were badly written :(

Modifié par JustAidan, 25 mars 2012 - 08:11 .


#22034
earth_angel

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Denvian wrote...


They said something about removing the last TIM fight becuase it felt, "too video gamey" and liked that the show down between TIM was more cerebral and talking.

It might be a translation mistake then. In the french version I just looked at, they say that they decided that tim sould not appear completely reaparized (and they show a reaper that looks a bit like a mix between a brute and the terminator reaper).

#22035
Denvian

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earth_angel wrote...

Denvian wrote...


They said something about removing the last TIM fight becuase it felt, "too video gamey" and liked that the show down between TIM was more cerebral and talking.

It might be a translation mistake then. In the french version I just looked at, they say that they decided that tim sould not appear completely reaparized (and they show a reaper that looks a bit like a mix between a brute and the terminator reaper).


Found it!

"One of the plans on the drawing boardwas to have the Illusive Man turn into a Reaper creature for the final battle. Eventually, this plan was scrapped, since we wanted to give players the satisfaction of fighting a character they know rather than a random creature.The design implies that the Illusive Man’s weapon is his intelligence, not his physical strength."


The Video gamey thing was apparently somewhere else when they were talking about plans for the end and boss fights.

Modifié par Denvian, 25 mars 2012 - 08:17 .


#22036
spz123

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Indoctrination Theory is a hundred times more believable than this "Terminator" DLC/"Mass Shift" nonsense.

#22037
earth_angel

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Denvian wrote...

Found it!

"One of the plans on the drawing boardwas to have the Illusive Man turn into a Reaper creature for the final battle. Eventually, this plan was scrapped, since we wanted to give players the satisfaction of fighting a character they know rather than a random creature.The design implies that the Illusive Man’s weapon is his intelligence, not his physical strength."


The Video gamey thing was apparently somewhere else when they were talking about plans for the end and boss fights.

So if he uses intelligence it might mean he is the master chief behind endoctrination.

@ spz123 : Mass shift and terminator news are troll made. There is no way Bioware would go further in the ideas that made everyone angry (about endings).

Modifié par earth_angel, 25 mars 2012 - 08:21 .


#22038
TrveOmegaSlayer

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Hunter_Wolf wrote...

Denvian wrote...
Not if they already have plans in the works and are going to reveal them on april 6th.  


As nice as it would be to see that happen, you know people wont believe it. Some people, feeling defeated, will still cry foul even if Bioware supplied documentation for all eyes to see where they could read the date and time stamped. They will be convinced that this was a mistake on their part, that this was a spur of the moment and last ditch effort to fix their mess.

I'm expecting it. But just so I can laugh at them for calling them out prior. If it doesn't happen, oh well I was wrong.


Unfortunately it's what I expect too.
Though I still can't understand why the image of a failable Sheppard is for them so hard to accept

#22039
TrveOmegaSlayer

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ghostbusters101 wrote...

TrveOmegaSlayer wrote...

The whispers in last dream before attacking Cerberus calls Shep "Siha"
what does it mean?


I found this "One of the warrior-angels of the goddess Arashu. Fierce in wrath." Mass effect 2 Thane's romance name for female Shepard. 


Thanks :)
But I still have to complete my total renegade fem shep walkthrough of ME2
So...this is really strange.

#22040
seli

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I just noticed that one of your squadmembers is lying on the right of you if you wake up, didn't notice that before. >.<

#22041
nyrocron

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seli wrote...

I just noticed that one of your squadmembers is lying on the right of you if you wake up, didn't notice that before. >.<

As far as I know Squadmembers being dead depends on EMS. How much did you have?

Modifié par nyrocron, 25 mars 2012 - 08:29 .


#22042
beank

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greywardencommander wrote...


I.T./hallucination (or have you ignored countless posts telling you such by me especially) in this particular thread can be interpreted based on the idea it's the battle of the mind, a hallucination (hence the specific reference) and that Shepard is knocked out on Earth and yet to wake up thus the game is far from over (and we never say that, or at least haven't for a long time hence constant references to DLC and what will happen as a result of your three choices)


I am not questioning what I.T. is about. I understand that the idea behind is that it is not really happening. Sometime between the Arrival and the Harbinger blast Sheperd is fighting Indoc. The events on the Citadel are the psyches way of processing what Indoc is doing to his mind and how his mind is trying to fight it. I dont post in discussion threads with out having background on the topic.

That was never in question from my (most recent) comment.

greywardencommander wrote...
If the endings are as they are at least we've made an attempt to give Bioware the biggest get out of jail free card there is - rewrite ending because the last 10 mins happened nowhere but your mind so you can do what you like when Shepard wakes up thus people who don't like the ending get to be happy they can still influence the endings, those who like the endings might go great lets see what else happens post-script.


So the options are either Indoc or crappy ending? 

greywardencommander wrote...
If you say 'where is all this stuff' I'd say it's scattered all over the 870 pages.....


This was my point in the comment.  870+ pages of stuff to sift through. Linking someone to a thread with that level of content seems to me like a stall tactic instead of giving an answer.


greywardencommander wrote...
Long story short if you don't like the endings GET ON BOARD WE WANT REAL ENDINGS AND THIS MAKES IT HAPPEN WITH DLC BASED ON THIS IDEA,



I like the endings. Bioware is giving us the final choice of deciding what is real and what isnt. Letting us choose to believe IT, accept the ending, or let us fill in something.

Nothing I have posted is in opposition to you guys getting an ending you want. I have only questioned the theory and Bioware PR surrounding it.

I have read the post in your sig and I think that it is a solid idea. But what could give you more choices? A DLC ending that gives you 9+  ending (the only one i dont understand is the first one) or something open-ended like what we have where anyone that plays the game can make something up?

Im all for discussion, but please dont demand that I pick a side....

#22043
spz123

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earth_angel wrote...

[
@ spz123 : Mass shift and terminator news are troll made. There is no way Bioware would go further in the ideas that made everyone angry (about endings).


You'd think that was obvious. However theres a 60 page thread of people not sure if its real or not with no evidence but some anoynomous post on the internet.

#22044
seli

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nyrocron wrote...

seli wrote...

I just noticed that one of your squadmembers is lying on the right of you if you wake up, didn't notice that before. >.<

As far as I know Squadmembers being dead depends on EMS. How much did you have?

I saw it in the ME Final hours app.

#22045
Sammuthegreat

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beank wrote...

Im still on the fence about it....

he (she?) is asking for clarification. The link to this post could be a brush off. "I cant give you any clarification. Here is an 880+ topic for you to get lost in till we can give you an answer".

What better way to buy time than to link to a topic that will take days to get your barring on instead of linking to a youtube video that does the same thing in minuets.

If it is a hint, then the game is over, there is nothing left to discuss. She flat out told us that the work done in this post is true....


FYI, here are some other tweets where Jessica Merizan hints that IT is true... it's not like the previous tweet I linked is in isolation. There's plenty of other hints.

#22046
Sammuthegreat

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beank wrote...
*snip*

I have read the post in your sig and I think that it is a solid idea. But what could give you more choices? A DLC ending that gives you 9+  ending (the only one i dont understand is the first one) or something open-ended like what we have where anyone that plays the game can make something up?

Im all for discussion, but please dont demand that I pick a side....


How about this? I posted this a while back but it didn't really get anyone talking, so I'll try again (I prefer this suggestion to greywardencommander's because it means that you're not bound by the decision you take in the Indoc scene to quite the same extent):


Sammuthegreat wrote...

What I would like to see for indoctrinated Shepards is a scene where he turns on his squadmates. Perhaps your reputation could help you here - there could be occasional Paragon/Renegade interrupts where you could "fight back" against the indoctrination, and pull Shepard's gun aside to stop him from killing a squadmate? Perhaps your war assets would determine your fate - the higher the war assets, the more people there are to remind Indoctrinated Shepard of what he was originally fighting for? Perhaps this could make him the first person to successfully break free of indoctrination, or alternatively he could break free just long enough to kill himself, like Saren and TIM in the hallucination, but by sacrificing himself to save the galaxy (e.g. by firing the real Crucible or something similar).

EDIT: the ^above^ in table form:

Chose Destroy with EMS >5000 - Shep is not indoctrinated. The endgame proceeds normally. All squadmates survive and the reapers are beaten.
Chose Destroy with EMS between 4000 and 5000 - Shep is not indoctrinated. The endgame proceeds normally. One or two squadmates die.
Chose Destroy with EMS between 3000 and 4000 - Shep is not indoctrinated. The endgame proceeds normally. One or two squadmates die, plus your love interest if you have one.
Chose Destroy with EMS between 2000 and 3000 - Shep is not indoctrinated. The endgame proceeds normally. All squadmates, including love interest, die, and Shepard sacrifices himself to beat the reapers. Dire consequences for the Alliance/Earth.
Chose Destroy with EMS <2000 - Shep is not indoctrinated. The endgame proceeds normally. Squaddies and Shepard all die, and reapers win.

Chose Control/Synthesise with EMS >5000 - Shep is indoctrinated, but breaks free (after turning on squadmates) and is able to finish the fight.
Chose Control/Synthesise with EMS between 4000 and 5000 - Shep is indoctrinated, but breaks free after killing a squadmate or two, and proceeds to finish the fight. Survives.
Chose Control/Synthesise with EMS between 3000 and 4000 - Shep is indoctrinated, but breaks free after killing a squadmate or two, long enough to sacrifice himself to finish the fight.
Chose Control/Synthesise with EMS between 2000 and 3000 - Shep is indoctrinated, but breaks free long enough to let a squadmate kill him/kill himself before he does any more damage. Squadmate may finish the fight, but with dire consequences for the Alliance/Earth.
Chose Control/Synthesise with EMS <2000 - Shep is indoctrinated, but fails to break free. He kills most/all of his squadmates, and the reapers win.

This would also allow for the possibility of failure. If your war assets are too low, then you don't break out of indoctrination, and the reapers use you as an agent to bring down the Alliance resistance from within.



#22047
greywardencommander

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earth_angel wrote...

Denvian wrote...

Found it!

"One of the plans on the drawing boardwas to have the Illusive Man turn into a Reaper creature for the final battle. Eventually, this plan was scrapped, since we wanted to give players the satisfaction of fighting a character they know rather than a random creature.The design implies that the Illusive Man’s weapon is his intelligence, not his physical strength."


The Video gamey thing was apparently somewhere else when they were talking about plans for the end and boss fights.

So if he uses intelligence it might mean he is the master chief behind endoctrination.

@ spz123 : Mass shift and terminator news are troll made. There is no way Bioware would go further in the ideas that made everyone angry (about endings).

wouldn't it be funny if TIM turned out to be behind the Reapers full stop or that Harbinger in ME3 at the very least is 'assuming control' like with the collectors lol

#22048
earth_angel

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spz123 wrote...

earth_angel wrote...

[
@ spz123 : Mass shift and terminator news are troll made. There is no way Bioware would go further in the ideas that made everyone angry (about endings).


You'd think that was obvious. However theres a 60 page thread of people not sure if its real or not with no evidence but some anoynomous post on the internet.

Lot of us are so disappointed / deceived that they tend to belive the unbelievable. The y have been betrayed and lost faith in Bioware. Wether they really intended it or not Bioware succeeded in endoctrinating its fans...

#22049
Tr0n01d

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Wow nearly 900 pages !

has any forum topic gone this far before ?

anyway, all is nice and good, but if the trick is confirmed in the future and bioware did really played us I just hope that the next time they or anyone else wants to play such a trick, the really think
about the "reaper"cushions :whistle:


Badoum-*tsiiiing*

Modifié par Tr0n01d, 25 mars 2012 - 08:45 .


#22050
7egion

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earth_angel wrote...

spz123 wrote...

earth_angel wrote...

[
@ spz123 : Mass shift and terminator news are troll made. There is no way Bioware would go further in the ideas that made everyone angry (about endings).


You'd think that was obvious. However theres a 60 page thread of people not sure if its real or not with no evidence but some anoynomous post on the internet.

Lot of us are so disappointed / deceived that they tend to belive the unbelievable. The y have been betrayed and lost faith in Bioware. Wether they really intended it or not Bioware succeeded in endoctrinating its fans...


The only evidence the opponents of IT ever present is that the VI couldn't detect indoctrination in shepard. 

Modifié par 7egion, 25 mars 2012 - 08:48 .