57139 réponses à ce sujet

[JustAidan]

lillitheris wrote...

1. IT isn't “true”, as in even though parts may have - and seemed to be - included, it was nixed by BioWare execs in favour of this new ending that we got;

2. HOWEVER, because everything can be pretty neatly explained using IT, BioWare should thank all passing deities for this opportunity and run with it.

3. They can either go in the direction they wanted to take with Casper (i.e. destroy all relays, Normandy gets stranded) but get a chance to add cinematics and closure plus rewrite the final sequence, reaper rationale and so on so that it makes at least some kind of sense - or, if so desired, they can actually add some of these alternative endings people would like to see. I'd be happy either way.

Oh pity's sake did you even read the thread?

Is the fifth or tenth (or more) time someone has come in and claimed that the board "came up with" the indoctrination theory?

Everything is in the game, the evidence for it snowballs after awhile; this thread/posters have just found it.

Not doing spellcheck, thread moves too fast.

Modifié par JustAidan, 25 mars 2012 - 09:52 .

[dewayne31]

i'm not sure bout it. it has some valid points. but they can be rebuffed too.but i'm convinced now that bioware might has something up sleeves. it explain the similiar ending it was it or a dream. which i'm leaning toward a dream. i still trying to get how ash and james in my last playthru ended up exiting the normandy with joker. they were my squad hitting the beam

[BigglesFlysAgain]

dewayne31 wrote...

i'm not sure bout it. it has some valid points. but they can be rebuffed too.but i'm convinced now that bioware might has something up sleeves. it explain the similiar ending it was it or a dream. which i'm leaning toward a dream. i still trying to get how ash and james in my last playthru ended up exiting the normandy with joker. they were my squad hitting the beam

There is diolgue cut from the game where joker picks them up, so bioware could just put that back in

[JustAidan]

dewayne31 wrote...

i'm not sure bout it. it has some valid points. but they can be rebuffed too.but i'm convinced now that bioware might has something up sleeves. it explain the similiar ending it was it or a dream. which i'm leaning toward a dream. i still trying to get how ash and james in my last playthru ended up exiting the normandy with joker. they were my squad hitting the beam

Yep, there is so much in this thread and the fact the Ms Merizan was hinting and linking to this thread before the net started getting rowdy about the endings that I have no trouble being conveniced that this was their idea at the start.

I'm sure they have some nice projections about 2nd hand sales effects, PR exposure, affects on Origin for PC etc etc.

Still it will be really nice to get some confirmation at PAX; where they have booked a panel to discuss Mass Effect--> which was done in advance of Mass Effect 3 being released, make of that what you will

[beank]

greywardencommander wrote...

Put it this way, if indoctrination was infallible then how come the Rachni Queen & Shiala (the letter from her even says why, because of the Thorian, you mind melded with her and ) aren't indoctrinated with the countless Reapers there are now?

I wondered that my self..... Could the way the Rachni comunicate (through sound) play a part in that?

[lillitheris]

JustAidan wrote...
Is the fifth or tenth (or more) time someone has come in and claimed that the board "came up with" the indoctrination theory?

Everything is in the game, the evidence for it snowballs after awhile; this thread/posters have just found it.

Did you read the part where I said the game actually included parts of the indoctrination storyline implementation? I'm quite familiar with the theory but, as I detailed, for various reasons the most likely explanation is that many assets were already added to support it but that in the final hours (sic), it was scrapped in favour of this new direction ending that we got.

Edit: It's not at all surprising that people can see it in the game even in an unfinished state: pattern recognition is what humans are best at. (Sometimes to a fault, seeing patterns where there aren't any, or even having the psychological need to see patterns, to be able to structure the world around them.)

I think the real question is why does it matter to you whether it's “real” or whether BioWare just goes in and adds the missing parts and gives it to us anyway?

Modifié par lillitheris, 25 mars 2012 - 10:04 .

[dewayne31]

BigglesFlysAgain wrote...

dewayne31 wrote...

i'm not sure bout it. it has some valid points. but they can be rebuffed too.but i'm convinced now that bioware might has something up sleeves. it explain the similiar ending it was it or a dream. which i'm leaning toward a dream. i still trying to get how ash and james in my last playthru ended up exiting the normandy with joker. they were my squad hitting the beam

There is diolgue cut from the game where joker picks them up, so bioware could just put that back in

ironic i was sitting here thinking how bioware could make normandy scene make sense with alittle work and you just basically told they might of had the same idea.

[savagejuicebox]

Gerbil Fetus wrote...


Hello there everyone!

Been following this thread since about page 200- something or other, thought i should post something.

Mostly a rant, so tune out if you want.

When i played ME3 i went in with a few wild guesses at whatever happens at the end.


-shep dies
-shep lives
-joins Illusive man
-Everyone dies(fail to stop Reapers harvesting this Cycle)
- the classic end showing everyone WINNING
-indoctrination(inspired by the simmilarities of Saren and my Renegade Shep, and that Shep had alliances on the go with all the races Saren used in ME1. Oh and the evil glowing enhancements.)
- i even thought there might be chance saren could pull a Lazerus Project of his own abd come back! Because hey DA:O had a secret party member and the ME3 CE had talked about a secret character.
 (the one we got was awesome btw)

Anyway.

First dream scene i was all "awww yeah! THIS CANNOT BE GOOD....Its gonna happen im gonna get to see shep get indoctrinated!!!" because i did not trust that suspicious dream AT ALL.
(i did however believe the Child from the ducts to be real, just the Dream one was false)

Id heard the end was "bad" but that was all. Never the less i hammered through the game, got to the end expecting some crazy showdown with Harbinger or something where he would reveal to all "YOU ARE INDOCTRINATED. YOU ARE MINE SHEPARD." or something like that.

assualt to the Beam....Harbinger rocks up: 
Me: " hahaha YES this is great (flashes of conduit charge on ilos)
BOOM Harbinger shoots me.
Me: Aggghhhh? Whaaaat i evaded that ****an-oh ****!?! Sheps alive!?"

Harbinger LEAVES.
"oh thats crap, we are meant to have a showdown! Come back!"
On i go into the infamous 10 minutes, feeling odd about the whole ordeal, the liiiitle inconcisencies all about. i feel like its rushed and kind of annoying like peoe said, but alot of it was what i had partially expected.....i just didnt expect shep to die, the universe to practically almost all die, AND the Relays to kersplode IN EVERY ENDING.

I kept thinking "why did thise dreams amount to nothing? Was it a red herring? Was it really all just apart of their plan to write a more sypathetic multi-faceted Shepard?"

Why didnt i get to blow up Harbinger!? Why did i have to deal with this new Master AI?
Then i slooooowwly started to realise....those dreams....those last 10 minutes both had simmilar slow walking...could the dreams have been there to imply those messed up 10 minutes are also a dream??

Naaahhhh.
That leaves the endgame unresolved in that case...they wouldnt do that....although that means the end isnt as stupid...and DLC for Fallout3 continued after the player was "killed" so they could try something similar... And i would fix those annoying inconsistancies with the end.

Naaaaaahhhh
The internet practically broke in half over the rage of day one DLC and the craziness over the endings? That sort of stunt would be unheard of...just like the Rage on the internet was nearly unheard of (people angrily DEMANDING a new end)

Basically i weighed the pros and cons of this idea back and forth as if i was Gollum dciding wether or not to kill Frodo and Sam in their Sleep.

Eventually i thought it was a big fat maybe and i decided not to get my hopes up.

I read the guide book after finishing the game and noticed its whole list of endings, and thought it was reeeaaally odd that shep lives only if you pick destroy( its the only one his body doesnt disintegrate)  That Master AI said i'd die....( i didnt have the 5000pts to see the breath scene) 


Then i realised I WAS getting my final confrontation with Harbinger.
I WAS getting my boss fight.
I WAS Getting resolution to the Indoctrination i was expecting....but not at all how i expected!

Reaching this point in this thread, its as if i have been Indoctrinated by this very theory.
I was doubting the probability of this idea, and i had nowhere near as much evidence or thinking behind it as everyone else here, and there was so much that i initially missed.

But i am now such a firm believer in the indoctrination Theory that i dont care if they dont release a DLC of what Shep does to take down the reapers after he wakes up, that end on the disk is an AMaZING way to end the game and i will defend it forever.
(then inform people of why, of course)

But the best thing is that there HAS to be more coming..... Mr. Aldrin says "One More Story"


HELL BLOODY YEAH.

Bravo! Bioware you bloody Geniuses, and thank you Forum for helping dispel any doubts i had!

(P.S. while this is a theory-if its disproven i dont think anything will get te idea from my head. Its there either i have been actually indoctrinated, or Leo Dicaprio's team have been inside my dreams ad planted it there.)

I had almost the exact same thought process... one day i was depressed, then thoughts started bouncing around in my head the next day while i was at work and then i realized INDOCTRINATION!! I quickly jumped on the internet as soon as i got home to see if others felt the same way i did.

Low and behold a vast group of highly inteligent people throwing ideas back and forth, repecting eachother and not trolling. I had about 3% of the evidence everyone here had, and yet i came up with the thought myself.

How most people havent figured it out by now is beyond me (even though we do have a large amount that do get it here)

Its true, it has to be. Bioware you effin geniuses!!

[greywardencommander]

nyrocron wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

(...)
My reasoning now is that Bioware WANTED to make a scene with Shepp being indocrinated but sometime during development they decided to go with a diferent aproach on how to end the story.

I do not think so. The original leaked script from Nov/2011 suggests no indoctrination and if indoc is in the game it would have been added after the leak. I do not think they would have taken it out so close to release. (The game would have had to be mostly finished by December or January)

that's the point though! November? Allowing for the time to make it etc completely changing the ending. I am well aware that it fits rushed idea which is main opposition but it goes against everything else (overall it's not perfect by any means in terms of continuity and I'd never claim so) we've come to expect based on the 295% of the trilogy? Nah don't buy it.
Why drop a theory they clearly feel is important to the point of even a Shepard VR Reaper? Drop all of that, because the GAMEPLAY mechanic not the story?

for all we know there's a page after the one we see saying 'lots of speculation' after the starchild etc
going 'so Shepard wakes up he's indoctrinated (or not) what now' etc etc.

maybe even the script leak (certainly the app part discussing indoctrination) was deliberate (struck me at the time how odd that all was how it got leaked etc, i'm sorry but human error my foot they'be been in the business a long time to know the minute any form of demo gets leaked it'll be picked apart for files, the endings whatever) and is now a hint.

Nothing definitively PROVES either way why not just go (the endings are the endings but we will CHANGE, not clarify, expand etc them) and I think that's the point and what keeps the IDT and the 'truth' to come more convincing. The longer this goes on it's got to be IDT or something similar (still a hallucination for whatever reason) even if wasn't planned but enough was left from original concept to be the clues, thus we noticed them they've gone let's make it happen, stall release until we've got the details pegged.

Either way no confirmation three weeks after release and a month (maybe a little more) after the whole thing was dragged up? Something's odd.

[greywardencommander]

beank wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Put it this way, if indoctrination was infallible then how come the Rachni Queen & Shiala (the letter from her even says why, because of the Thorian, you mind melded with her and ) aren't indoctrinated with the countless Reapers there are now?

I wondered that my self..... Could the way the Rachni comunicate (through sound) play a part in that?

oily shadows,

just a thought I just sent you that I only really thought of

re. stargazer I think I said it before they've done it before re. Varric in DA2 framed narrative (an excellent concept because it's hard to make it work in interactive gaming), you rely on the narrator thus stuff is wrong (in game in DA2 it's corrected) and stuff that doesn't fit is because of that very fact, that to me as a Bioware fan is a hint in itself (not getting into the stock image of Stargazer is the cover art of 'starchild' and the lyrics to do with dreams, running away and stuff.

Framed Narrative in terms of BREAKING THE FOURTH WALL just like Fight Club (you see it all differently when you look at it all again.

[monrapias]

Sammuthegreat wrote...

Henkovich wrote...

 http://i42.tinypic.com/2r3c7zk.jpg 

this is on the prothean ruins on Eletania, just thought it seemed interesting.

I remember discovering that, I was completely mystified. But in a really awesome way (unlike my reaction to ME3's endings ). If nothing else, it's a great little Easter egg that just goes to show how far ahead BioWare planned the story and mythos of the universe.

Would a developer renowned for such foresight really have been rushed into a muddled ending? Really?

where is that from? I thought I had found everything in me1, can't remember this. (the picture)

[beank]

savagejuicebox wrote...
Its true, it has to be. Bioware you effin geniuses!!

Im using your post because it is the most recent, but are we calling Bioware geniuses for the idea or the implementation of the idea?

I still think the idea is based on A Futurama Episode.... Mixed with The Matrix Reloded and Vanilla Sky....

Not that Bioware didnt come up with the idea on their own, but the idea is hardly original. (Nothing is truly original anymore....) The Fururama episode probably stole it from someone else.

[savagejuicebox]

greywardencommander wrote...

beank wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

Put it this way, if indoctrination was infallible then how come the Rachni Queen & Shiala (the letter from her even says why, because of the Thorian, you mind melded with her and ) aren't indoctrinated with the countless Reapers there are now?

I wondered that my self..... Could the way the Rachni comunicate (through sound) play a part in that?

oily shadows,

just a thought I just sent you that I only really thought of

re. stargazer I think I said it before they've done it before re. Varric in DA2 framed narrative (an excellent concept because it's hard to make it work in interactive gaming), you rely on the narrator thus stuff is wrong (in game in DA2 it's corrected) and stuff that doesn't fit is because of that very fact, that to me as a Bioware fan is a hint in itself (not getting into the stock image of Stargazer is the cover art of 'starchild' and the lyrics to do with dreams, running away and stuff.

Framed Narrative in terms of BREAKING THE FOURTH WALL just like Fight Club (you see it all differently when you look at it all again.

Quoting Fight Club, you sir just won the internet!  (aka i couldnt agree more)

[Legion109]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Denvian wrote...

I had someone tell me that they took my name down and when April comes around and IDT turns out to be false he is going to rub my face in it with a long "I told you so" message.

I really have no idea what I have done to ****** him off... I thought I have been very civil and yet people are still acting like tools.

That's what I hate about people. They tell us our theory is grasping at straws, yet we're being civil with our thoughts, not forcing our opinion on anyone and we get treatment like that.

To be completely fair a lot of people that believe IT are very condescending and write messages to others as if they are superior because they "noticed" something another didn't, I believe this pushes several people away from IT because they want these ****s to be wrong. It's kind of sad because those of us that believe in IT but don't act superior because of it and those of us that just want a better ending and don't care if it's IT or not get caught in the middle and often bashed for it.

[yagaelvin]

earth_angel wrote...

I had a machiavelic tought. As sais above there was an ending that leaked about dark energy and reapers being giant computers created to solve a dark energy problem.

Now what if Bioware decided to go the IT route for two reasons:
1) getting back the surprise lost because of the leak by revealing the true endings a month after releasing ME3: who still thinks this old scenario is the right one?
2) since the players might be very critical about whatever end Bioware might choose, they look at reactions to know what most players really want to give us a perfect ending.

if true I will feel manipulated but so happy

This is why if Bioware ends up going this way and the DLC is free, they'll win back most of their fanbase that they lost due to the ending.  Admittingly they'll still be people pissed off about the whole thing (most likely the people who traded in their games already and of course the haters) but they'll be only a small portion of the fanbase I think

Unless of course we'll have to pay for it and that's a different story

Modifié par yagaelvin, 25 mars 2012 - 10:21 .

[masster blaster]

Have you all notice that when Shepard says in one option when talking to the Catalyst " but your taking away our hope with out hope we might as well be programed to obey you" something similar to what Shepard really says. After that Shepard is presented with 3 choices that we think/know that 2 are bad, and one is good. So which one is good or bad?

Well if you pick control your thinking that it was a good choices since it was the color of Paragon, but why would the Illusive Man stand for paragon when his actions/motives were pure evil. Also if you think for a second your taking away all synthetic life's free will to live their own life which you established to the kid that by wiping out organic/synthetic life is wrong for we don't have the right to live or die our own way. So by controlling all synthetic life you are really taking the bad choice, plus you see the kid smile when you chose Control.

I will not say anymore about the other two choices because there is already a lot of evidence on them, so keep up the good work.

[beank]

greywardencommander wrote...
Either way no confirmation three weeks after release and a month (maybe a little more) after the whole thing was dragged up? Something's odd.

I wouldnt discount the idea that they are trying to give ample time to other nations that got it more recently. I think Japan just got it on the 15th?

I know I got the game at the midnight release and didnt finish it till about the middle of last week....

They might also have expected multiplayer to hold a little more of our attention that what it has....

[N7xELITE]

Now I think about it these endings may well be the ending of the mass effect series forever if they do not change it, my point of view is if they do not change the endings what's the point of carrying on with the mass effect universe. Like the old man in the end talking to the child , it seems to be far in the future and by the looks of it they have not been into space for a long while ( because the kid says When will i be able to go into the stars)

Modifié par N7xELITE, 25 mars 2012 - 10:28 .

[greywardencommander]

beank wrote...

savagejuicebox wrote...
Its true, it has to be. Bioware you effin geniuses!!

Im using your post because it is the most recent, but are we calling Bioware geniuses for the idea or the implementation of the idea?

I still think the idea is based on A Futurama Episode.... Mixed with The Matrix Reloded and Vanilla Sky....

Not that Bioware didnt come up with the idea on their own, but the idea is hardly original. (Nothing is truly original anymore....) The Fururama episode probably stole it from someone else.

it's original based on the idea of breaking the fourth wall etc (like Fight Club) in theory shouldn't and couldn't happen in interactive gaming because of the player's input means it would be original in that sense.

re. stargazer I think I said it before they've done it before re. Varric in DA2 framed narrative (an excellent concept because it's hard to make it work in interactive gaming), you rely on the narrator thus stuff is wrong (in game it's corrected) and stuff that doesn't fit is because of that very fact, that to me as a Bioware fan is a hint in itself (not getting into the stock image is the cover art of 'starchild' and the lyrics to do with dreams, running away and stuff.

Framed Narrative in terms of BREAKING THE FOURTH WALL just like Fight Club (you see it all differently when you look at it all again, just like with IT and in the psychology (like I put in my signature thread, simple psychology explains why you're supposed to feel something's off at the end) that's the point, you don't see it until Shepard sees it and why the end is supposed to feel so disconnected and a direct lead on from the other dreams re. the slow motion, the walking in a straight line (more or less obviously) constantly towards something the switch in colour and character re. the choices that's all supposed to plant the idea in your head that something's wrong and realise it's indoctrination.

Thus now the illusion is broken both for Shepard and you, you realise you're indoctrinated you immediately go no screw you reapers I set out to destroy you destroy I shall. You then realise all along in ME3 you're being indoctrinated subtly leading to the final 'showdown' overcoming it is ME3's Ilos and Omega (i.e doing the impossible and something lacking as well as an 'end boss' and I don't buy the taking it out to not have an end boss so it doesn't feel videogamey really)

As thane himself says when you say about noone telling you could get to Ilos
'That's true, you've made a career out of doing the impossible'

NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE IN ME3

They can retcon the choice based on that (like killing Shepard in ME2 by making the wrong choices, deliberate or not in theory it should have happened and carried over) and with the aftermath of Arrival or the DLC can be based on that final decision and have you indoctrinated (even to an extent you can later break but choosing control or synthesis has repercussions like you die no matter what, you kill yourself no matter what etc etc)

[beank]

greywardencommander wrote...
re. stargazer I think I said it before they've done it before re. Varric in DA2 framed narrative (an excellent concept because it's hard to make it work in interactive gaming), you rely on the narrator thus stuff is wrong (in game in DA2 it's corrected) and stuff that doesn't fit is because of that very fact, that to me as a Bioware fan is a hint in itself (not getting into the stock image of Stargazer is the cover art of 'starchild' and the lyrics to do with dreams, running away and stuff.

Framed Narrative in terms of BREAKING THE FOURTH WALL just like Fight Club (you see it all differently when you look at it all again.

I think the star gazer is irrelevant to the Indoc theory.

He is just there to show that this is all something that happened  a long, long time ago in a galixy far, far away....

If we do get DLC that changes/explains things, the Stargazer's comments at the end will not change.

And yes.... Fight Club is awesome.

[greywardencommander]

masster blaster wrote...

Have you all notice that when Shepard says in one option when talking to the Catalyst " but your taking away our hope with out hope we might as well be programed to obey you" something similar to what Shepard really says. After that Shepard is presented with 3 choices that we think/know that 2 are bad, and one is good. So which one is good or bad?

Well if you pick control your thinking that it was a good choices since it was the color of Paragon, but why would the Illusive Man stand for paragon when his actions/motives were pure evil. Also if you think for a second your taking away all synthetic life's free will to live their own life which you established to the kid that by wiping out organic/synthetic life is wrong for we don't have the right to live or die our own way. So by controlling all synthetic life you are really taking the bad choice, plus you see the kid smile when you chose Control.

I will not say anymore about the other two choices because there is already a lot of evidence on them, so keep up the good work.

Exactly Saren (synthesis a magic compromise choice that appears but never did before) and TIM alone are supposed to make you go no I'll take my chances thanks who says you're telling the truth DESTROY

[greywardencommander]

beank wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...
re. stargazer I think I said it before they've done it before re. Varric in DA2 framed narrative (an excellent concept because it's hard to make it work in interactive gaming), you rely on the narrator thus stuff is wrong (in game in DA2 it's corrected) and stuff that doesn't fit is because of that very fact, that to me as a Bioware fan is a hint in itself (not getting into the stock image of Stargazer is the cover art of 'starchild' and the lyrics to do with dreams, running away and stuff.

Framed Narrative in terms of BREAKING THE FOURTH WALL just like Fight Club (you see it all differently when you look at it all again.

I think the star gazer is irrelevant to the Indoc theory.

He is just there to show that this is all something that happened  a long, long time ago in a galixy far, far away....

If we do get DLC that changes/explains things, the Stargazer's comments at the end will not change.

And yes.... Fight Club is awesome.

his comments wouldn't change though but that's the point I'm making is the framed narrative suggests the author can put down any errors (I know that's the case with the current endings) to the narrator's error (bad memory wasn't there, embelishment etc) meaning that whole scene...we don't know what happened thus if it's in the head who says it happened...

Modifié par greywardencommander, 25 mars 2012 - 10:28 .

[savagejuicebox]

beank wrote...

savagejuicebox wrote...
Its true, it has to be. Bioware you effin geniuses!!

Im using your post because it is the most recent, but are we calling Bioware geniuses for the idea or the implementation of the idea?

I still think the idea is based on A Futurama Episode.... Mixed with The Matrix Reloded and Vanilla Sky....

Not that Bioware didnt come up with the idea on their own, but the idea is hardly original. (Nothing is truly original anymore....) The Fururama episode probably stole it from someone else.

Indoctrination has been probably the most important theme throughout all 3 games, i call them geniuses because this will be the first time a video game has done something like this, they gave us an ending an ending (if taken at face value) really really sucks, like matrix 3 ending suck, like sopranoes ending suck, like Lost ending suck, like... well there are others.

I dont care what people say but they did not give us an incomplete game if the real ending comes out, they gave us another frameof reference. When the ending comes out, there are going to be a lot of people (whether they admit it or not) that are going to feel quite stupid... ORRR It will end up being debunked (which it wont) and everybody here will feel stupid! 

[GBGriffin]

beank wrote...


I think the star gazer is irrelevant to the Indoc theory.

I have two words for you: confirmation bias

[Kyzee]

Legion109 wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Denvian wrote...

I had someone tell me that they took my name down and when April comes around and IDT turns out to be false he is going to rub my face in it with a long "I told you so" message.

I really have no idea what I have done to ****** him off... I thought I have been very civil and yet people are still acting like tools.

That's what I hate about people. They tell us our theory is grasping at straws, yet we're being civil with our thoughts, not forcing our opinion on anyone and we get treatment like that.

To be completely fair a lot of people that believe IT are very condescending and write messages to others as if they are superior because they "noticed" something another didn't, I believe this pushes several people away from IT because they want these ****s to be wrong. It's kind of sad because those of us that believe in IT but don't act superior because of it and those of us that just want a better ending and don't care if it's IT or not get caught in the middle and often bashed for it.

I actually find it to be true on both sides of the IT theory. I also wouldn't say "a lot" of people; I think that's an unfair generalization. It's just unfortunate that people can't seem to calm down and have a civil discussion about ME3 (I'm thinking of Spoony's livestreaming episode from last night--that was a disappointing thing to witness.) People believe what they believe--it doesn't make you superior or them inferior just b/c they don't share your opinion. 

All right, enough of my didactic lecturing. Sorry.