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[BleedingUranium]

This doesn't really tie in to IT too much, but the end of Inception, after watching it for a second time, actually doesn't leave room for speculation; it's not a dream. In Inception's dream worlds the little top spins perfectly all the time, like, CGI perfectly. In the last scene it does for a few seconds, but then starts to wobble but cuts as it does. But, if it was a dream, it would never wobble, at all, in any way.

The end of Inception is in the real world.

[Fingertrip]

So, continously firing your gun after the beam, I keep hearing whispers like, "Shepard".

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

greywardencommander wrote...

spz123 wrote...

If everything that seems to be pointing towards indoctrination is "lazy writing/game design" as those who are adamant on debunking IT are prone to say, then the sheer amount of this would mean Bioware are not merely "lazy" but also incompetent.

That COULD be the case but in my mind the IT or some form of it seems more likely.

April should give us some solid information.

Exactly it's been said before someone in that team likes psychology (Casey maybe) and the psychological aspect of the end and indoctrination and it going from Shepard onto the player once it dawns (again see my thread in the signature about the pure instinct and psychological side that should suggest it's not true)

...too good an opportunity to miss and I refuse to believe until told otherwise that Bioware were incompetent to the point of criminality with this series otherwise

A point someone brought up about Bioware´s "Incompentence and lazy writing" is this.

If you decide to halt the spreading of the Genophage cure and hold Mordin at gun point, the gun you use is the same as the one Mordin gave you as a sign of trust in ME2 (it is also the same gun or at least same type you use during the end sequence). If you use the renegade prombt you shoot Mordin with the very gun he gave you and Sheaprd then throws it away in what looks like disgust or sorrow.

These writers who incoporated such a minor detail as that gun in that scene are the same who completely dropped the ball and created massive plotholes in the ending? Something is not right here...

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 26 mars 2012 - 08:41 .

[schneeland]

I guess, it has been said before, but what also makes IT more plausible is that it would make a lot more sense to defend the current ending as an artistic choice.

On a nice twist, I notice that the more often I watch the IT video, the more I believe that Bioware had this or something similar in mind - so IT is actually itself a working form of indoctrination

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

schneeland wrote...

I guess, it has been said before, but what also makes IT more plausible is that it would make a lot more sense to defend the current ending as an artistic choice.

On a nice twist, I notice that the more often I watch the IT video, the more I believe that Bioware had this or something similar in mind - so IT is actually itself a working form of indoctrination

Yeah it is funny how the theory in many ways has become like what it describes 

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

greywardencommander wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Some stuff I've seen seems to be proof positive , while other evidence really does seem like grasping at straws and trying to force it into indoctrination.

Did anyone find out if the dream shadows , were in fact warning Shepard to stay away/not trust the child ?

You're missing the point EVERYTHING prior to the last sequence can be interpreted either way, that's the point. Confirmation bias you're not supposed to notice it because if you (i.e. Shepard) notice it you can't be indoctrinated.

No not really , if we start saying everything indoctrination then it invalidates the whole point making everyone here that believes (including myself) seem like crazy people.I just want to make sure proof presented is actual proof or something that can't be explained unless you look at indoctrination.The dream textures is pretty good proof , the two moons thing was grasping to me.

But I still believe until bioware says otherwise.

[Dendio1]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

schneeland wrote...

I guess, it has been said before, but what also makes IT more plausible is that it would make a lot more sense to defend the current ending as an artistic choice.

On a nice twist, I notice that the more often I watch the IT video, the more I believe that Bioware had this or something similar in mind - so IT is actually itself a working form of indoctrination

Yeah it is funny how the theory in many ways has become like what it describes 

Assuming Direct control!

[Dendio1]

I can only imagine the indoctrination related discoveries buried in this soon to be thousand page thread

Modifié par Dendio1, 26 mars 2012 - 08:40 .

[Peregrin25]

I hope so much that the whole Indoctrination Theory is correct. I have seen videos on Youtube and posts in forums like this.

from the very start of the game to the end. The signs are all there. Crap loads of people just completely disagree, but the way I see it. The Indoctrination Theory would be the best way to go about it imo. I just don't know though. I don't wanna hope for something that may not come.

The ending to Mass Effect 3 wasn't much of an ending really

it's almost like if you were watching a movie at the theater and just as the climax reached it's peak the film catches fire and you are unable to finish the movie or know how it ends, but it was close enough you could almost guess.

I want to be able to choose to destroy the reapers and save everyone without sacrificing my Shepard, and or what ever to be with those that my character grew to care about. That is all I ever wanted. Not some half assed ending that makes no sense.

The slogan for the launch of ME3 was Take Back Earth! Well with an ending like that fails to live up to it's advertising. I want to kill Harbinger and actually take earth back. So I pray they decide to make the Indoctrination Theory the way.

But that's just me.

[greywardencommander]

BleedingUranium wrote...

This doesn't really tie in to IT too much, but the end of Inception, after watching it for a second time, actually doesn't leave room for speculation; it's not a dream. In Inception's dream worlds the little top spins perfectly all the time, like, CGI perfectly. In the last scene it does for a few seconds, but then starts to wobble but cuts as it does. But, if it was a dream, it would never wobble, at all, in any way.

The end of Inception is in the real world.

same with stuff like Fight Club, the effect isn't there ONCE you now. Hence why everything's subtle, just like with indoctrination. Shepard KNOWING he is being influenced negates the indoctrination thus he is free. If he was never controlled (picks destroy) then he can resist it completely and carry on.

[Stigweird85]

BleedingUranium wrote...

This doesn't really tie in to IT too much, but the end of Inception, after watching it for a second time, actually doesn't leave room for speculation; it's not a dream. In Inception's dream worlds the little top spins perfectly all the time, like, CGI perfectly. In the last scene it does for a few seconds, but then starts to wobble but cuts as it does. But, if it was a dream, it would never wobble, at all, in any way.

The end of Inception is in the real world.

Funny I always thought it was still in the dream 

As for the comment in about the choices you made that was more a general statement about how choices effect the story. For me at least is that it was so well built in that I didn't even realise it was there.

[greywardencommander]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

In a week or so, this thread will either be triumphant in victory or accepting in defeat.

The point is, there will be people who will try to laugh at us and say I told you so and judging from the people here, I don't think we'll be the same way if this turns out to be true.

I personally don't care that much about the outcome. If the I.T. is real, than (almost) the entire fanbase will praise Bioware for it and throw away their pitchforks and torches. At least I will, even if such an End-DLC would not be free.

But if the simply stick to the curren end? With some textbox or additional dialogue or cutscenes? Then I'll still stick with the I.T. for my personal ending of this epic journey, and my Shep will finish the fight against the Reapers as it should be, guns blazing and without space magic,  in my own fantasy...

Same here. There is enough evidence to support the IT and it even explains other plotholes like why the reapers didn't shut down the relay network immediately.

they need them to go back at the end of each cycle...why destroy the relays in every scenario (when you're controlling them they need somewhere to go) not enough time to put them back where they came from...

[byne]

So, replaying the ending yet again.

Is it just me, or does it seem that the Reaper destroyer (the smaller Reapers, like the ones from Rannoch and Tuchanka) only appears right when Shep notices the kid near the evac shuttles?

And am I wrong in saying that only Shepard and the kid seem to pay any attention to it?

Plus, when you first see the Reaper destroyer on Tuchanka, Mordin specifically calls it a new form of Reaper, implying no one else had seen a Reaper destroyer before.

[Srslydude01]

I believe the evidence is very compelling. I just finished the game last night and I am still thinking of how much it really doesn't fit. So does everything you fought for in the past 3 games just become wasted in the end? I wouldn't think so. I am happy to see all the gathered evidence for IT. It is another reason why I likes these forums. The fanbase's dedication to the franchise rubs off on people. Which keeps making it better and better.

[greywardencommander]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Some stuff I've seen seems to be proof positive , while other evidence really does seem like grasping at straws and trying to force it into indoctrination.

Did anyone find out if the dream shadows , were in fact warning Shepard to stay away/not trust the child ?

You're missing the point EVERYTHING prior to the last sequence can be interpreted either way, that's the point. Confirmation bias you're not supposed to notice it because if you (i.e. Shepard) notice it you can't be indoctrinated.

No not really , if we start saying everything indoctrination then it invalidates the whole point making everyone here that believes (including myself) seem like crazy people.I just want to make sure proof presented is actual proof or something that can't be explained unless you look at indoctrination.The dream textures is pretty good proof , the two moons thing was grasping to me.

But I still believe until bioware says otherwise.

I know which is why I was saying that either way it doesn't matter, the final scene not being right is enough to make you realise. Everything else can be immaterial even the proof. For me the files being under dream etc to me is proof but other's who don't believe will argue it's because they're reused.

[Stigweird85]

Another thought about the IT

Shepard has united the galaxy, just imagine the repercussions if it turned out that the one man/women you counted on, the one man that you gambled all your chips on was an agent of the reapers.

All trust would go out the window and people would question every decision you ever made even if it was made under the influence of the reapers are not.

[blueboxblues]

 Has anyone been following the Alliance News Network Twitter account? 
  http://twitter.com/#!/AllianceNewsNet 

It's been posting about attacks and stuff that happen in the game...today it just posted that asari space was attacked. Has anyone mentioned that they might be in time with the game and an announcement? I mean, now we know that we'll hear something in April, but maybe the ANN updates have been in "real time" with events in the game (so to speak) and the announcement will come, like, when the final assault on Earth "happens?" I'm not sure if my rambling makes sense but I kind of hope this is the case because it's cool haha.

[nyrocron]

bigstig wrote...

I have been playing through the game again, and stumbled across this little fact about choices.

In order to save the Geth and the Quarians requires a ME2 save where both Tali and Legion survive but also you keep the heretics during Legions loyalty mission in Mass Effect 2. You can do it without this criteria but it more difficult(requires hire reputation)

Could it be that people are complaining their choices didn't mean anything as they haven't played the other side of the coin as it were? I know I didn't realise the difference my choices had made until I started again

That's what I meant in an earlier post, the choices influence the game heavily. And probably that is how BioWare wanted it, the whole game as a finale and your choices form your way to the end. And one could argue that the outcome for the galaxy is very differenciated depending on your final choice. And player would surely also have criticized BioWare if you could not reach every one of the endings independent of your choices in earlier games.

The problem I (and many other people) have is, that, no matter what you did throughout the series, you can always get the same three choices. I do not like that but I can imagine BioWare doing it this way.

Nevertheless, while I think it is possible that BioWare intended the outcome to really be like the current ending and planning a story in the direction of the recent 4chan "leak", I refuse to believe that they would have executed it the way we all saw. I refuse to believe that they did just oversee those plotholes and placed all the things that can be interpreted in favor of indoctrination theory coincidentally or out of lack of skill. Until proved otherwise of course. But then I will be gone.

The things that I find most convincing at the moment:

• TIM acting completely out of character ("i need you to understand")
• Shepard acting completely out of character (believing GodChild)
• Harbinger flying away (wtf?)
• Teleporting squadmates  and them flying away from Shep
• BioWare statements

/edit: typos

Modifié par nyrocron, 26 mars 2012 - 08:56 .

[greywardencommander]

byne wrote...

So, replaying the ending yet again.

Is it just me, or does it seem that the Reaper destroyer (the smaller Reapers, like the ones from Rannoch and Tuchanka) only appears right when Shep notices the kid near the evac shuttles?

And am I wrong in saying that only Shepard and the kid seem to pay any attention to it?

Plus, when you first see the Reaper destroyer on Tuchanka, Mordin specifically calls it a new form of Reaper, implying no one else had seen a Reaper destroyer before.

Yep re. right when he notices the kid. It also appears right when the VI says 'indoctrination detected' and possibly other times I'm no sure.

re. Mordin's comment...not sure but it could be because they're built off of humans thus they'd be new...

[macrocarl]

bigstig wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

This doesn't really tie in to IT too much, but the end of Inception, after watching it for a second time, actually doesn't leave room for speculation; it's not a dream. In Inception's dream worlds the little top spins perfectly all the time, like, CGI perfectly. In the last scene it does for a few seconds, but then starts to wobble but cuts as it does. But, if it was a dream, it would never wobble, at all, in any way.

The end of Inception is in the real world.

Funny I always thought it was still in the dream 

As for the comment in about the choices you made that was more a general statement about how choices effect the story. For me at least is that it was so well built in that I didn't even realise it was there.

I'm totally feeling the IT folks! It took me 24 hours to come around to it, but I'm hooked. The thing with Inception was it's inconclusive. In other words it's written for both interpretations. That very well may be the case for ME3 as well. But man, I'm currently digging IT.

[Stigweird85]

blueboxblues wrote...

 Has anyone been following the Alliance News Network Twitter account? 
  http://twitter.com/#!/AllianceNewsNet 

It's been posting about attacks and stuff that happen in the game...today it just posted that asari space was attacked. Has anyone mentioned that they might be in time with the game and an announcement? I mean, now we know that we'll hear something in April, but maybe the ANN updates have been in "real time" with events in the game (so to speak) and the announcement will come, like, when the final assault on Earth "happens?" I'm not sure if my rambling makes sense but I kind of hope this is the case because it's cool haha.

Very interesting, that's the first tweet in a while and assume it continues as it has been where it was done in "real time" as you put it then that would be an indication of indoc of something else

After all if Shepard destroyed/merged/control the reapers why would they still be attacking?

[greywardencommander]

nyrocron wrote...

bigstig wrote...

I have been playing through the game again, and stumbled across this little fact about choices.

In order to save the Geth and the Quarians requires a ME2 save where both Tali and Legion survive but also you keep the heretics during Legions loyalty mission in Mass Effect 2. You can do it without this criteria but it more difficult(requires hire reputation)

Could it be that people are complaining their choices didn't mean anything as they haven't played the other side of the coin as it were? I know I didn't realise the difference my choices had made until I started again

That's what I meant in an earlier post, the choices influence the game heavily. And probably that is how BioWare wanted it, the whole game as a finale and your choices form your way to the end. And one could argue that the outcome for the galaxy is very differenciated depending on your final choice. And player would surely also have criticized BioWare if you could not reach every one of the endings independent of your choices in earlier games.

The problem I (and many other people) have is, that, no matter what you did throughout the series, you can always get the same three choices. I do not like that but I can imagine BioWare doing it this way.

Nevertheless, while I think it is possible that BioWare intended the outcome to really be like the current ending and planning a story in the direction of the recent 4chan "leak", I refuse to believe that they executed it the way we all saw. I refuse to believe that the did just oversee those plotholes and placed all the things that can be interpreted in favor of indoctrination theory coincidentally or out of lack of skill. Until proved otherwise of course. But then I will be gone.

The things that I find most convincing at the moment:

• TIM acting completely out of character ("i need you to understand")
  
  
• Shepard acting completely out of character (believing GodChild)
  
• Harbinger flying away (wtf?)
  
• Teleporting squadmates  and them flying away from Shep
  
• BioWare statements

it's the same in all the games though it's the 'illusion' of choice. Endings wise ME1 - save council or don't ME2 - Collectors Base saved or don't, ME3 - destroy the Reapers or don't. Everything else is just little variables towards the end, they're the major ones thus although they all matter in small ways they don't effect the story (case in point retconning ME2 so you have to survive despite making all the decisions that lead to everyone dying)
[*]Edit: Just a factual point lol nothing to do with IT or it's validity just thought I'd point it out with regards to 'retconning the destroy option' (which they don't have to do) and them in many ways dictating canon by making Arrival's repercussions felt and referenced in the game regardless of player choice (i.e. playing Arrival, sabotaging the final mission)

Modifié par greywardencommander, 26 mars 2012 - 08:53 .

[greywardencommander]

bigstig wrote...

Another thought about the IT

Shepard has united the galaxy, just imagine the repercussions if it turned out that the one man/women you counted on, the one man that you gambled all your chips on was an agent of the reapers.

All trust would go out the window and people would question every decision you ever made even if it was made under the influence of the reapers are not.

said that a long time ago and you're right. Harbinger focuses on Shepard because he can be the difference between winning and losing or cleaning up organics in say 1 year  (the galaxy is broken over the shock he's been defeated/controlled) and a century