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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#23151
Dendio1

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wheelierdan wrote...

in all seriousness what is going to happen to this massive segment of the fanbase that believes the endings didnt happen and some secret dlc is the real ending never happens?


At this point its more logical to believe in the IT theory than to just throw your hands up and say that bioware had amazing writing through the last two games and 98 percent of this one, but some how crashed and burned in the last 10 mins.

Honestly those who dont believe in at least some parts of the IT theory just sound like trolls or people who did not do the research. These people dont even try to solve the plot holes they embrace. They would just complain and demonize bioware, rather than picking up the pieces and making sense out of the puzzle.

Modifié par Dendio1, 27 mars 2012 - 09:48 .


#23152
Mike Aus

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Anyone else notice the mirrored 1M1 text at the end part on the structure? That's in Latin. On what's meant to be an 'unknown' place on the non man made Citadel.

Why mirrored? Why 1M1? I am one?

#23153
Pascal219

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wow, just finished another playthrough. A worst case scenario one, where most of my me2 squadmates died. Needless to say my ems was quite screwed!

In any case starchild sounds quite pissed when I met him! "Why are you here?"

Any reason for why he says this instead of the normal "Wake up"?

#23154
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Hello Everyone

I just went through the second dream sequence (the one after Tuchanka) and In line with the things I read in this thread I took my time and investigated it.

Now first things first I listened to the voices and though i could not make anything out at first they are most certainly saying "Shepard" and I am pretty sure I heard something like "Dont trust" but it was unlcear at first.

I then tried removing the music on the scene and here something interesting came up. Without the music on in the scene some metallic noises and what sounded like metallic scratching became much more clear. It was not directly the Reaper growl sound, but it was a whole lot like the metallic sounds from the original Prothean vision back in ME1, at least that is what i thought about when hearing it. This metallic sound seemed to get weaker when I was near the oily shadows though that might simply be their noises drowning them out.

I then tried taking of sound effects, this removed all remaining sound from the scene including the "voices" so its clearly not recorded as Dialogue, but then again it dosent show up on subtitles so that is not to strange i guess.

But the most interesting thing was the end of the dream right after the kid moves the second time and you only need to reach him once more.

Here i clearly saw a massive amount of shadows gathering around the kid like a wall, as if keeping him in or Sheaprd out. At this point many other shadows in the area seemed to disappear and the metallic noise became louder.

The real kicker was then when I approached the wall of shadows and the kid as now their voices were much stronger and there was clearly new voices/noise in it which after listening to it for a while I asociated with them saying "Away" and "Dont" as well as the other words.

Sorry i cat upload a video of all this, i simply dont hjave the tools, but hope you find this interesting. Will update again when I get to the last dream (If I havent left for Japan before)

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 27 mars 2012 - 09:53 .


#23155
Dendio1

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Mike Aus wrote...

Anyone else notice the mirrored 1M1 text at the end part on the structure? That's in Latin. On what's meant to be an 'unknown' place on the non man made Citadel.

Why mirrored? Why 1M1? I am one?


Its all over the dream citadel. It looks like the cerberus signatures with similar colors and the number/letter pattern. Someone pointed out how it can be seen in the final room mirror opposite the paragon and renagade choices, perhaps offer a hint that all is not right there. Honestly its bizarre in its own right

heres a link with parts of the citadel inspired by sheps previous experiences

http://i.imgur.com/oHO5N.jpg

#23156
nyrocron

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Mike Aus wrote...

Anyone else notice the mirrored 1M1 text at the end part on the structure? That's in Latin. On what's meant to be an 'unknown' place on the non man made Citadel.

Why mirrored? Why 1M1? I am one?

The 1M1 has most likely no meaning in itself, but that part is internally named "antenna" and also appeared on the Citadel in ME1.

#23157
Gernbuster

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daftPirate wrote...

Gernbuster wrote...

daftPirate wrote...

Something I was wondering. The high vs low EMS destroy endings. One shows the reapers and their tech being destroyed, the other also shows Big Ben, the soldiers, and most of Earth reduced to cinders. How does this factory into Indoc. Theory?


Shepard lost hope. Low EMS leads only to destroy, which is definitly the worst option. The end movie u see represents the level of hope Shepard got left.

The Reapers want to indoctrinate Shep so they got a perfect infiltrator, everyone is trusting him. If your EMS is low, the Reapers may already have won in their oppinion and so they don't care so much about the indoctrination process. Thats why u got less possebilities and the godchild is quit offending.


SO basically you're saying Shepard knows what he has to do (Destroy the reapers), but has doesn't believe he can/that it will work (everything else is destoryed as well)?

It doesn't matter what he believes. The Reaper give him his possebilities. Shep thinks he can end that war.
On low EMS the Reapers are indoctrinating him, but don't really care. The galaxies biggest fleet just gets destroyed outside, they already won. If u get  get low EMS Shepard is losing hope during the game, (genophage may not get cured, frieds are dying, Quarians/Geth are dying and when they attack earth big parts of the fleet get shoot down in the first 2 mins. His squatmates are dying and lie in front of him, etc.
Thats why the endmovies are that bad.
On high EMS the Reaper recognize that this cycle something is going terrible wrong, the whole galaxie and all their ships are united, the strength of many the weakness of none. Javin is stating that the Protheans lost because they all followed one doctrine and one strategie. The Reapers may be afraid, they could lose this war. So they do everything to convince Shepard to take control(indoctrination), or synthesis ( Saren at the very end)

#23158
Mike Aus

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Ahhhh here: http://w11.zetaboard...opic/7696214/1/

Coincidence maybe but still doesn't explain the human writing in that location. Unless it was a lazy artist but I doubt it.

Also the fact that they used green as the third color with the relays is not a coincidence either.

#23159
Stigweird85

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Pascal219 wrote...

wow, just finished another playthrough. A worst case scenario one, where most of my me2 squadmates died. Needless to say my ems was quite screwed!

In any case starchild sounds quite pissed when I met him! "Why are you here?"

Any reason for why he says this instead of the normal "Wake up"?


Because you don't deserve to be there? I'm not too sure.

#23160
Kanon777

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JustAidan wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Two things occured to me while reading this thread.

One, in over 900 pages, 20,000 post or more, I have yet to see one mod appear/and or make a statement of any kind, even the "keep it polite" kind (which, don't get me wrong, we seem to be doing an excellent job policing ourselves)

That fact alone says something. I'm not sure what, but moderators specifically avoiding this thread? Veeeeeeeery interesting.


Indeed, plus someone pointed out earlier that this thread hasn't been moved to fan fiction :)
Also, Jessica Merizan has linked to this thread twice from her twitter, once before and once after the ending outrage.




Right now she is pulling the "multiple interpretations" idea on us. She is talking like the end of ME3 could be seen like the end of Inception (you didnt know if what happened was a dream or reality at the end)

Maybe thas just her way of "speculating" so she might not know anything 

#23161
Dendio1

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bigstig wrote...

Pascal219 wrote...

wow, just finished another playthrough. A worst case scenario one, where most of my me2 squadmates died. Needless to say my ems was quite screwed!

In any case starchild sounds quite pissed when I met him! "Why are you here?"

Any reason for why he says this instead of the normal "Wake up"?


Because you don't deserve to be there? I'm not too sure.


Low EMS has him say why are you here. High EMS has him say *wake up*. This could be a nod towards the true ending. Its quite interesting that he uses the words *wake up* when shep is not *sleeping*.

Modifié par Dendio1, 27 mars 2012 - 10:08 .


#23162
Kanon777

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Mike Aus wrote...

Ahhhh here: http://w11.zetaboard...opic/7696214/1/

Coincidence maybe but still doesn't explain the human writing in that location. Unless it was a lazy artist but I doubt it.

Also the fact that they used green as the third color with the relays is not a coincidence either.



Its not coincidence, that anthena was there at the end of ME1.

#23163
Martukis

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bigstig wrote...

Pascal219 wrote...

wow, just finished another playthrough. A worst case scenario one, where most of my me2 squadmates died. Needless to say my ems was quite screwed!

In any case starchild sounds quite pissed when I met him! "Why are you here?"

Any reason for why he says this instead of the normal "Wake up"?


Because you don't deserve to be there? I'm not too sure.


Check out http://mod.gib.me/ma...3/testdump2.txt at biod_end002_400guardian_loc_int.end003_catalyst_m_D.end003_catalyst_m_dlg to see that
Conditional_1292 determines the Catalyst's disposition, amongst other things... What exactly
that is, I don't know.

#23164
Ad_Hoc

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bigstig wrote...

I am getting a little tired with the "it's not a complete game argument coming back again"  Even if you accept it isn't a complete game so what?

I give you two of the biggest grossing movies or recent memory - Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 1, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2,  Twilight Breaking Dawn Part 1 or Part 2. Did buy a ticket for one give you free access to part 2?

In games, Ubisoft sold an epilogue to Prince of Persia, also each year Activision churns out several premium DLC packs to add onto the COD game of the moment. Where those games unfinished(Please note I am not comparing content of the games just citing examples of similar practices)

The game had an ending, whether real or not it had an ending. It would be different if it showed you the final mission and then asked you to pay to play it (arcades were awful for this this tactic) It's no different that your favourite TV show finishing on a cliff hanger. It's a cheap tactic but it has worked for years to generate interest in the next title.





Have to
disagree with you. Cutting the game in the middle with a crappy ending to sell
DLC of a real ending is bad business.



Movies you mentioned, though ive seen neither of them, informed that its a part
1 of 2, so its very different from what we have here if IDT is true.



As for the games, havent played Prince of Persia, but Cod DLC packs is different,
its basically a regular DLC. 



Arrival was sort of an epilogue to ME 2, and, imo, its fine since ME 2 story
was finished, and Arrival was a separate story.

#23165
Mike Aus

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So what's the link between that antenna at the end of me1 and me3? I forgot the details of the end of me1.

#23166
JustAidan

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Hello Everyone

I just went through the second dream sequence (the one after Tuchanka) and In line with the things I read in this thread I took my time and investigated it.

Now first things first I listened to the voices and though i could not make anything out at first they are most certainly saying "Shepard" and I am pretty sure I heard something like "Dont trust" but it was unlcear at first.

I then tried removing the music on the scene and here something interesting came up. Without the music on in the scene some metallic noises and what sounded like metallic scratching became much more clear. It was not directly the Reaper growl sound, but it was a whole lot like the metallic sounds from the original Prothean vision back in ME1, at least that is what i thought about when hearing it. This metallic sound seemed to get weaker when I was near the oily shadows though that might simply be their noises drowning them out.

I then tried taking of sound effects, this removed all remaining sound from the scene including the "voices" so its clearly not recorded as Dialogue, but then again it dosent show up on subtitles so that is not to strange i guess.

But the most interesting thing was the end of the dream right after the kid moves the second time and you only need to reach him once more.

Here i clearly saw a massive amount of shadows gathering around the kid like a wall, as if keeping him in or Sheaprd out. At this point many other shadows in the area seemed to disappear and the metallic noise became louder.

The real kicker was then when I approached the wall of shadows and the kid as now their voices were much stronger and there was clearly new voices/noise in it which after listening to it for a while I asociated with them saying "Away" and "Dont" as well as the other words.

Sorry i cat upload a video of all this, i simply dont hjave the tools, but hope you find this interesting. Will update again when I get to the last dream (If I havent left for Japan before)


Thanks, that's pretty informative.

I am occasionally tempted to catelogue all these hints throughout the game but the thread is so long now I simply don't have the time :lol:

#23167
JustAidan

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tobito113 wrote...

JustAidan wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Two things occured to me while reading this thread.

One, in over 900 pages, 20,000 post or more, I have yet to see one mod appear/and or make a statement of any kind, even the "keep it polite" kind (which, don't get me wrong, we seem to be doing an excellent job policing ourselves)

That fact alone says something. I'm not sure what, but moderators specifically avoiding this thread? Veeeeeeeery interesting.


Indeed, plus someone pointed out earlier that this thread hasn't been moved to fan fiction :)
Also, Jessica Merizan has linked to this thread twice from her twitter, once before and once after the ending outrage.




Right now she is pulling the "multiple interpretations" idea on us. She is talking like the end of ME3 could be seen like the end of Inception (you didnt know if what happened was a dream or reality at the end)

Maybe thas just her way of "speculating" so she might not know anything 


I don't think she is speculating, some of her twitter feeds were practially bouncing like someone who is dying to tell people the twist. She has even said as much.

#23168
withneelandi

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I avoided IT for a while because it looked to me like people as disapointed as me trying to make sense of the bad ending presented, i've since had a read at the main points in this thread and while not 100% convinced, I'm intrigued.

For me the most convinving and hard to argue with elements are the fact that that the games presentation style changes so noticably after the lazer beam hits, the player literally has less controll over shepard and the fact that the aparatus presented to shepard by the star child so closely mirrored by the beam that is supposed to take shepard to the citadel.

Similarly, the one breath at the end of the destroy ending only really makes sense to me if shepard never actually made physically to the citadel.

I do have one thing to add, I haven't noticed this mentioned elsewhere (or not exactly anyway) but I haven't been able to read every post.

The first thing we see in Mass Effect 3 is the star child holding the normandy. That is some pretty big, heavy handed symbolism. Just a nice cinematic shot on first play through, but knowing the significance of the child it seems to me an indication of who is really in controll.

A few minutes later, the same child says "you can't save me" this is the most direct and earliest example of futility being forseshadowed in the game, it is refinforced throughout the game, Shepards failure on Thessia is the most obvious example of his failure to save everyone.

In many way, the idea of not being able to save everyone goes back to mass effect 1, with the death of either Ashley of Kaiden although the fact that mass effect 2 allows the player to literally bring everyone home from a suicided mission somewhat subverts that theme.

The ending of mass effect 3 is deliberately ambiguous. There is no dialogue or text, from the point shepard makes his/her choice up unitl the credits.

I think there is 3 ways to read it:

It is either a vague and messy literal ending which does little to give the player closure. This was my first thought.

Alternatively, IT is correct and we have either not seen the games conclusion or been part of a fanstastic piece of meta-narrative so unconventional that most players didnt quite get it, and many of those that did are still very unsure about what they have seen.

Finally, the entire game is a simply an exercise in Nihilism. Presenting and highlighting the importance of choice, then in the end showing the player the futuility of their actions and the inevitablity of events.

I don't actually know which I think it is, I could make a convincing argument for all 3 possibilities but IT is plausible as any at this stage, such is the deliberate ambiguity of the games conclusion.

Keep up the good work!

Modifié par withneelandi, 27 mars 2012 - 10:23 .


#23169
Mike Aus

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Wait for it. The beacon Shepard touched on Eden Prime was an image of the future. Everything that happened in ME2 and 3 is in his head. :P

#23170
Kanon777

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JustAidan wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

JustAidan wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Two things occured to me while reading this thread.

One, in over 900 pages, 20,000 post or more, I have yet to see one mod appear/and or make a statement of any kind, even the "keep it polite" kind (which, don't get me wrong, we seem to be doing an excellent job policing ourselves)

That fact alone says something. I'm not sure what, but moderators specifically avoiding this thread? Veeeeeeeery interesting.


Indeed, plus someone pointed out earlier that this thread hasn't been moved to fan fiction :)
Also, Jessica Merizan has linked to this thread twice from her twitter, once before and once after the ending outrage.




Right now she is pulling the "multiple interpretations" idea on us. She is talking like the end of ME3 could be seen like the end of Inception (you didnt know if what happened was a dream or reality at the end)

Maybe thas just her way of "speculating" so she might not know anything 


I don't think she is speculating, some of her twitter feeds were practially bouncing like someone who is dying to tell people the twist. She has even said as much.



That was before people started flooding her tweet thinking she was hiding something. Now she using the "art has many interpretations" argument. I think she is just letting people speculate (since Indoc theory is a good way to deflate the anger over the endings)

#23171
Mike Aus

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In think you mean determinism not nihilism. Nihilism is more about a lack of meaning. Determinism is more what you mean. :)

#23172
Pascal219

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Martukis wrote...

bigstig wrote...

Pascal219 wrote...

wow, just finished another playthrough. A worst case scenario one, where most of my me2 squadmates died. Needless to say my ems was quite screwed!

In any case starchild sounds quite pissed when I met him! "Why are you here?"

Any reason for why he says this instead of the normal "Wake up"?


Because you don't deserve to be there? I'm not too sure.


Check out http://mod.gib.me/ma...3/testdump2.txt at biod_end002_400guardian_loc_int.end003_catalyst_m_D.end003_catalyst_m_dlg to see that
Conditional_1292 determines the Catalyst's disposition, amongst other things... What exactly
that is, I don't know.



Wow, that's strange! If we're following the theory, would it be because Shepard doesn't consider himself to be worthy of making it that far? Since he had many setbacks and therefore a low ems? 

#23173
Thomas Shepard

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Hello guys. I'm sorry that I was out for a while, but I had a small cluster f*** with my hard drives, so I had to reinstall a lot of my software. Anyway, I told you last time that I was going to try and crack open the game files with the UDK. Unfortunately, due to some moronic error related to Microsoft .Net Framework 4 all my attempts to install the Kit have failed. Therefore, I'll just provide a link to the UDK website http://www.udk.com/download. Whoever wants to try and rummage through the game files and look for give aways in asset names or common assets with the dream sequences, the files for the last levels of the game can be found in your ME3 installation folder\\BIOGame\\CookedPCConsole and their names start with BioA_End. Needless to say it would be a good idea to copy the installation folder and work inside the copy and not in the files that your game actually uses. If you try to do it let us know how it turns out. Meanwhile, I'll keep trying to resolve my error. Good luck :)

#23174
nyrocron

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withneelandi wrote...

(...)
The first thing we see in Mass Effect 3 is the star child holding the normandy. That is some pretty big, heavy handed symbolism. Just a nice cinematic shot on first play through, but knowing the significance of the child it seems to me an indication of who is really in controll.
(...)


As stated several times throughout this thread, the toy ship is not the Normandy. It is some random alliance ship which has SX-3 written on it.

Modifié par nyrocron, 27 mars 2012 - 10:29 .


#23175
Dendio1

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I avoided IT for a while because it looked to me like people as
disapointed as me trying to make sense of the bad ending presented, i've
since had a read at the main points in this thread and while not 100%
convinced, I'm intrigued.

The ship that the kid is holding is not the normandy, but the symbolic meaning may remain the same.

There is alot supporting the IT theory these days.
I could go on all day about the angelic note that only plays as you approach Destroy, or the blatant inconsistency with TIM on the dream citadel compared to TIM as we know him ( tim doesnt give a damn what shepard thinks, but on the dream citadel if you choose to ask why hes wasting time with you and anderson, he becomes exasperated and declares *because you have to understand* lol wut??).

I could point out the shrubs and trees that dont exist until after shep is knocked unconscious...and how they are a nod towards the forests where he chased the little boy in his dreams. How about the strong difference between the radio where they are calling for a retreat and the radio conversations with hacket and anderson. The former sounds far away and faint while the latter abord the dream citadel is crystal clear.

I can even point out just a few posts above about how the crucible kid uses the choice words * wake up* when addressing you despite the fact that *on the surface* you are awake as he approches you.

Anyway welcome to the fold friend. Link below is your pamphlet

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck

Modifié par Dendio1, 27 mars 2012 - 10:37 .