57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Why is it that everyone refers to the godchild as "GUARDIAN"? Is that name ever mentioned in the game? If so, I missed it

[Mbednar]

I can't stress enough the fact that I DO LIKE THE IT THEORY. I'm not saying that the IT Theory isn't possible... I mean, it conveniently fills a LOT of plot holes.

But I think the reason the current ending is terrible is just because they were scrapped for time after the Dark Energy Ending was leaked. They probably let someone with a wild imagination get all creative and this was the result... crap.

The only reasons that I don't think Bioware is going to release a IT DLC is because they'd basically be shooting themselves in the foot HARD.

Even IGN would bash them if they found out that the game was released without the actual ending, and that you had to PAY to finish the story.

Also, the other half of the fan base (those that like the endings) would be up in arms because the endings that they liked, wouldn't be "real". Their endings would be invalidated.

[Turbotanden]

Pascal219 wrote...

wow, just finished another playthrough. A worst case scenario one, where most of my me2 squadmates died. Needless to say my ems was quite screwed!

In any case starchild sounds quite pissed when I met him! "Why are you here?"

Any reason for why he says this instead of the normal "Wake up"?

With very low EMS they don't actually have any need for indoctrinating you, so the child is surprised and annoyed that you are there. Your only choice is "destroy", and you ain't gonna wake up.

[withneelandi]

Mike Aus wrote...

In think you mean determinism not nihilism. Nihilism is more about a lack of meaning. Determinism is more what you mean.

I think there is a deterministic element for certain.

I didn't really elaborate properly, but the reason I said Nihilimsm rather than determinism is that I see the deterministic ending as having a strongly nihilistic message.

If the player is asked to make moral judgments repeatedly which are then negated by events I see a sort of nihilisic, not just deterministic message there.

In fairness, I'd have explained that far better 5 years ago when I was studying english lit, but alas 5 years of studying law since has made far less skilled at making such points.

I can give you a jurisprudential analysis of Mass Effect instead though?

[nyrocron]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Why is it that everyone refers to the godchild as "GUARDIAN"? Is that name ever mentioned in the game? If so, I missed it

Internal naming.

[Dendio1]

I avoided IT for a while because it looked to me like people as
disapointed as me trying to make sense of the bad ending presented, i've
since had a read at the main points in this thread and while not 100%
convinced, I'm intrigued.

The ship that the kid is holding is not the normandy, but the symbolic meaning may remain the same.

There is alot supporting the IT theory these days.
I could go on all day about the angelic note that only plays as you approach Destroy, or the blatant inconsistency with TIM on the dream citadel compared to TIM as we know him ( tim doesnt give a damn what shepard thinks, but on the dream citadel if you choose to ask why hes wasting time with you and anderson, he becomes exasperated and declares *because you have to understand* lol wut??).

I could point out the shrubs and trees that dont exist until after shep is knocked unconscious...and how they are a nod towards the forests where he chased the little boy in his dreams. How about the strong difference between the radio where they are calling for a retreat and the radio conversations with hacket and anderson. The former sounds far away and faint while the latter abord the dream citadel is crystal clear.

I can even point out just a few posts above about how the crucible kid uses the choice words * wake up* when addressing you despite the fact that *on the surface* you are awake as he approches you.

Anyway welcome to the fold friend. Link below is your pamphlet

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck

[Pascal219]

Turbotanden wrote...

Pascal219 wrote...

wow, just finished another playthrough. A worst case scenario one, where most of my me2 squadmates died. Needless to say my ems was quite screwed!

In any case starchild sounds quite pissed when I met him! "Why are you here?"

Any reason for why he says this instead of the normal "Wake up"?

With very low EMS they don't actually have any need for indoctrinating you, so the child is surprised and annoyed that you are there. Your only choice is "destroy", and you ain't gonna wake up.

ah, that makes sense! thank you.

[Turbotanden]

Mbednar wrote...

I can't stress enough the fact that I DO LIKE THE IT THEORY. I'm not saying that the IT Theory isn't possible... I mean, it conveniently fills a LOT of plot holes.

But I think the reason the current ending is terrible is just because they were scrapped for time after the Dark Energy Ending was leaked. They probably let someone with a wild imagination get all creative and this was the result... crap.

The only reasons that I don't think Bioware is going to release a IT DLC is because they'd basically be shooting themselves in the foot HARD.

Even IGN would bash them if they found out that the game was released without the actual ending, and that you had to PAY to finish the story.

Also, the other half of the fan base (those that like the endings) would be up in arms because the endings that they liked, wouldn't be "real". Their endings would be invalidated.

Arn't they the ones going "boo hoo the game didn't end the way you wanted, cry more"?

On a serious note though, it will be very interesting to see if they make the DLC free (i certainly hope so) or not and how the gaming journalism will react. There has to be a first time for everything. And if the DLC is free I don't think they will be shooting themselves in the foot, rather they will probably create the most loyal and respecting fanbase a gaming company has ever had.

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Is there a video on youtube that compares the music playing when you walk towards the choices? Because I really want to hear the different music when approaching "Destroy"

[waldstr18]

Turbotanden wrote...

Pascal219 wrote...

wow, just finished another playthrough. A worst case scenario one, where most of my me2 squadmates died. Needless to say my ems was quite screwed!

In any case starchild sounds quite pissed when I met him! "Why are you here?"

Any reason for why he says this instead of the normal "Wake up"?

With very low EMS they don't actually have any need for indoctrinating you, so the child is surprised and annoyed that you are there. Your only choice is "destroy", and you ain't gonna wake up.

so, the child is real now? or is the illusion the reapers give shepard annoyed? can illusions be annoyed?

i have the best explanation for i.t.: i managed to clip myself out of the engineering deck on the normandy once, ran around the ship in space and then clipped myself back in were jack used to sleep. im not making stuff up, i really did that. no hacking or what so ever. but this is clearly not possible. so it has to be indoctrination, right? bioware doesnt make mistakes, they planned that so, that i knew all of this wasnt real, cause im astral projecting.

indoctrination theory is therefore proven, cause there is no other explanation.

[withneelandi]

Turbotanden wrote...

On a serious note though, it will be very interesting to see if they make the DLC free (i certainly hope so) or not and how the gaming journalism will react. There has to be a first time for everything. And if the DLC is free I don't think they will be shooting themselves in the foot, rather they will probably create the most loyal and respecting fanbase a gaming company has ever had.

To be honest, if the story is contnued in free DLC, it can be justified in purely business terms, as long as it is free to players with a valid online pass it would provide a further incintive to players to buy the game new, rather than buy the game pre-owned.

More new game sales = profit.

I'm not having a go at EA/Bioware if they were motivated by those sorts of conciderations, its a pretty sensible and reasonably fair way to make sure they loose as little money as possible to the pre-owned market.

[raider968]

Regarding the ending sequence with the man and child; some people think it doesn't fit with the IT, saying shepard's story has ended. I think it fits in perfectly, since the father finishes the story of shepard's struggle with indoctrination. He never said that was the end of shepard. When the child says "tell me another story about shepard", the father would probably move on to what happened afterwards, ie the possible dlc content of shepard waking up.

Modifié par raider968, 27 mars 2012 - 10:47 .

[The_Sloth25]

Mbednar wrote...

Even IGN would bash them if they found out that the game was released without the actual ending, and that you had to PAY to finish the story.

Also, the other half of the fan base (those that like the endings) would be up in arms because the endings that they liked, wouldn't be "real". Their endings would be invalidated.

I think if they made the DLC free and act like they planned it all along (whether they did or not) people wouldn't feel ripped off.  Also, is it really as high as half the fanbase that are happy with the endings?  Maybe I'm just in my own little bubble of ending haters, but I think most people disliked the ending.  Especially the more hardcore fans.

[nyrocron]

waldstr18 wrote...

Turbotanden wrote...

Pascal219 wrote...

wow, just finished another playthrough. A worst case scenario one, where most of my me2 squadmates died. Needless to say my ems was quite screwed!

In any case starchild sounds quite pissed when I met him! "Why are you here?"

Any reason for why he says this instead of the normal "Wake up"?

With very low EMS they don't actually have any need for indoctrinating you, so the child is surprised and annoyed that you are there. Your only choice is "destroy", and you ain't gonna wake up.

so, the child is real now? or is the illusion the reapers give shepard annoyed? can illusions be annoyed?

i have the best explanation for i.t.: i managed to clip myself out of the engineering deck on the normandy once, ran around the ship in space and then clipped myself back in were jack used to sleep. im not making stuff up, i really did that. no hacking or what so ever. but this is clearly not possible. so it has to be indoctrination, right? bioware doesnt make mistakes, they planned that so, that i knew all of this wasnt real, cause im astral projecting.

indoctrination theory is therefore proven, cause there is no other explanation.

We found lots of things that can't possibly be bugs or just errors.

[JustAidan]

tobito113 wrote...

JustAidan wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

JustAidan wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Two things occured to me while reading this thread.

One, in over 900 pages, 20,000 post or more, I have yet to see one mod appear/and or make a statement of any kind, even the "keep it polite" kind (which, don't get me wrong, we seem to be doing an excellent job policing ourselves)

That fact alone says something. I'm not sure what, but moderators specifically avoiding this thread? Veeeeeeeery interesting.

Indeed, plus someone pointed out earlier that this thread hasn't been moved to fan fiction
Also, Jessica Merizan has linked to this thread twice from her twitter, once before and once after the ending outrage.

Right now she is pulling the "multiple interpretations" idea on us. She is talking like the end of ME3 could be seen like the end of Inception (you didnt know if what happened was a dream or reality at the end)

Maybe thas just her way of "speculating" so she might not know anything 

I don't think she is speculating, some of her twitter feeds were practially bouncing like someone who is dying to tell people the twist. She has even said as much.

That was before people started flooding her tweet thinking she was hiding something. Now she using the "art has many interpretations" argument. I think she is just letting people speculate (since Indoc theory is a good way to deflate the anger over the endings)

Yeah, she took a lot of flak from upset players as she was the only one from the PR department really talking to players.

Remember she was hinting at the indoc theory BEFORE people got angry, that suggests that the indoc is intended.

The longer we speculate the more PR exposure this thing gets, also consider that Bioware know exactly how much their playerbase cares about the ME setting as can be seen from that badly written ME novel fiasco awhile back.

[Vahilor]

The illussion is given by Harbinger and Harbinger is in controll of the illusion, created it and it is more Harbinger who is annoyed and that influences the illusion.

Modifié par Vahilor, 27 mars 2012 - 10:50 .

[JustAidan]

Mbednar wrote...

1:But I think the reason the current ending is terrible is just because they were scrapped for time after the Dark Energy Ending was leaked. They probably let someone with a wild imagination get all creative and this was the result... crap.

2:The only reasons that I don't think Bioware is going to release a IT DLC is because they'd basically be shooting themselves in the foot HARD.

3:Even IGN would bash them if they found out that the game was released without the actual ending, and that you had to PAY to finish the story.

4:Also, the other half of the fan base (those that like the endings) would be up in arms because the endings that they liked, wouldn't be "real". Their endings would be invalidated.

1: Of course now they have an extra period of time to work on the ending/s.

2:Yeah, I think this idea is gold either way, still conveniced it was their idea all along.

3:We have no idea yet about the cost, if any. Bare in mind that the 360 and PS3 install sizes are gigabytes bigger than the PC install size, given how PC people tear into game assests and the cost  from SONY/Microsoft to put DLC on their servers this may suggest that 360/PS3 players already have the ending installed while PC player will download it from Origin (which EA controls).

4: They've been indoctrinated, we can only hope they do the Galaxy a favour and put a bullet in their heads:D

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Vahilor wrote...


The illussion is given by Harbinger and Harbinger is in controll of the illusion, created it and it is more Harbinger who is annoyed and that influences the illusion.

Thats my thought on the low EMS part as well. Harbinger realizes that the Reapers are already winning and dont need Shepard and as such pretty much pulls a "Lets just end this dream and finish it" and as such only one choice because it dosent matter if Shepard gets turned or not, its allready over.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

JustAidan wrote...

Mbednar wrote...

3:We have no idea yet about the cost, if any. Bare in mind that the 360 and PS3 install sizes are gigabytes bigger than the PC install size, given how PC people tear into game assests and the cost  from SONY/Microsoft to put DLC on their servers this may suggest that 360/PS3 players already have the ending installed while PC player will download it from Origin (which EA controls).

Thats actually interesting. I mean us PC user are pretty garantued to have an Internet connection for downloading the update since we had to activate the game on Origin.

[Turbotanden]

waldstr18 wrote...

Turbotanden wrote...

Pascal219 wrote...

wow, just finished another playthrough. A worst case scenario one, where most of my me2 squadmates died. Needless to say my ems was quite screwed!

In any case starchild sounds quite pissed when I met him! "Why are you here?"

Any reason for why he says this instead of the normal "Wake up"?

With very low EMS they don't actually have any need for indoctrinating you, so the child is surprised and annoyed that you are there. Your only choice is "destroy", and you ain't gonna wake up.

so, the child is real now? or is the illusion the reapers give shepard annoyed? can illusions be annoyed?

i have the best explanation for i.t.: i managed to clip myself out of the engineering deck on the normandy once, ran around the ship in space and then clipped myself back in were jack used to sleep. im not making stuff up, i really did that. no hacking or what so ever. but this is clearly not possible. so it has to be indoctrination, right? bioware doesnt make mistakes, they planned that so, that i knew all of this wasnt real, cause im astral projecting.

indoctrination theory is therefore proven, cause there is no other explanation.

Ofc the child is "real", just like the infection of the geth data servers were "real" even though they were virtual at the same time. I interpret it as Harbinger has been trying to indoctrinate Shepard, at the end he gets the perfect opportunity and uses it. Que hallucination. While Shepard (unknowingly) battles for her own mind Harbinger is evaluating Shepard's usefullness.

[Mbednar]

The_Sloth25 wrote...

Mbednar wrote...

Even IGN would bash them if they found out that the game was released without the actual ending, and that you had to PAY to finish the story.

Also, the other half of the fan base (those that like the endings) would be up in arms because the endings that they liked, wouldn't be "real". Their endings would be invalidated.

I think if they made the DLC free and act like they planned it all along (whether they did or not) people wouldn't feel ripped off.  Also, is it really as high as half the fanbase that are happy with the endings?  Maybe I'm just in my own little bubble of ending haters, but I think most people disliked the ending.  Especially the more hardcore fans.

If it turns out to be free, then I suppose a lot of those issues I mentioned essentially disappear.

BUT, judging from Bioware's comments on the issues, the ones mentioning only "clarifying" the ending, I feel like Bioware is going to just end up spitting in the faces of their "hardcore" fans.

Best described in another thread: 

• Bioware gave fans Meatloaf
• Fans said they can't eat it, they're Vegetarian
• So in response, Bioware just gives them higher quality Meatloaf.

I feel like Bioware is going to Alienate a lot of people no matter what they do. 

[Vahilor]

JustAidan wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

JustAidan wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

JustAidan wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Two things occured to me while reading this thread.

One, in over 900 pages, 20,000 post or more, I have yet to see one mod appear/and or make a statement of any kind, even the "keep it polite" kind (which, don't get me wrong, we seem to be doing an excellent job policing ourselves)

That fact alone says something. I'm not sure what, but moderators specifically avoiding this thread? Veeeeeeeery interesting.

Indeed, plus someone pointed out earlier that this thread hasn't been moved to fan fiction
Also, Jessica Merizan has linked to this thread twice from her twitter, once before and once after the ending outrage.

Right now she is pulling the "multiple interpretations" idea on us. She is talking like the end of ME3 could be seen like the end of Inception (you didnt know if what happened was a dream or reality at the end)

Maybe thas just her way of "speculating" so she might not know anything 

I don't think she is speculating, some of her twitter feeds were practially bouncing like someone who is dying to tell people the twist. She has even said as much.

That was before people started flooding her tweet thinking she was hiding something. Now she using the "art has many interpretations" argument. I think she is just letting people speculate (since Indoc theory is a good way to deflate the anger over the endings)

Yeah, she took a lot of flak from upset players as she was the only one from the PR department really talking to players.

Remember she was hinting at the indoc theory BEFORE people got angry, that suggests that the indoc is intended.

The longer we speculate the more PR exposure this thing gets, also consider that Bioware know exactly how much their playerbase cares about the ME setting as can be seen from that badly written ME novel fiasco awhile back.

And is it not a god thing that a lot of fans care so much about the game ? Cause so much people caring about shows BW that a lot of people really love a lot about ME and the characters, that the games were able to make people really get involved into the storys and somhow emotional involved into the whole story...
and im pretty convinced most people really liked all about the games, except of the endings =)

[waldstr18]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Vahilor wrote...


The illussion is given by Harbinger and Harbinger is in controll of the illusion, created it and it is more Harbinger who is annoyed and that influences the illusion.

Thats my thought on the low EMS part as well. Harbinger realizes that the Reapers are already winning and dont need Shepard and as such pretty much pulls a "Lets just end this dream and finish it" and as such only one choice because it dosent matter if Shepard gets turned or not, its allready over.

then why is he even trying to indoctrinate in the first place? practice for the next cycle? makes sense, cause the next indoctrination wont be for another 50k years.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

waldstr18 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Vahilor wrote...


The illussion is given by Harbinger and Harbinger is in controll of the illusion, created it and it is more Harbinger who is annoyed and that influences the illusion.

Thats my thought on the low EMS part as well. Harbinger realizes that the Reapers are already winning and dont need Shepard and as such pretty much pulls a "Lets just end this dream and finish it" and as such only one choice because it dosent matter if Shepard gets turned or not, its allready over.

then why is he even trying to indoctrinate in the first place? practice for the next cycle? makes sense, cause the next indoctrination wont be for another 50k years.

Maybe its out of spite or fun? Imagine Shepard going through the horrors of the Indoctriantion seeing Earth destroyed and all, but at least knowing his crew got away safe (that does happen in the low EMS ending right? Havent actually watched it only read about it.) and then wakes up Harbinger standing over him giving him just enough time to realize it was dream before cushing Shepard.

[Stigweird85]

Ad_Hoc wrote...


Have to
disagree with you. Cutting the game in the middle with a crappy ending to sell
DLC of a real ending is bad business.

Yes cutting a game in the middle would be a bad idea, but it wasn't cut in the middle. It was cut at the end, and even if it was cut there is still an ending.  As I said if it finished showing you the next mission i.e. You see the TO be continued message on the briefing screen prior to TIM base assault then that would be a problem but it didn't.

Ad_Hoc wrote...

Movies you mentioned, though ive seen neither of them, informed that its a part
1 of 2, so its very different from what we have here if IDT is true.

The prinicipal remains the same though it is still only "half" a story whether they tell you that or not is irrelevent. Would it have been any better if Bioware launched Mass Effect Part 1 and Mass Effect Part 2 a year later? However bad the fan uproar is now it would be much worse.

Ad_Hoc wrote...

As for the games, havent played Prince of Persia, but Cod DLC packs is different, its basically a regular DLC. 

Yes COD is basic DLC, however thousands knowingly buy the game expecting further content to come out at a later date. This year Activision even introduced a pre-payment plan for it. So not only was the game "incomplete" you paid for the game and then paid upfront for the DLC to come later too(I know Elite has other functions but the biggest sell was the DLC) 

COD DLC is mostltY MP base, however the main selling point of COD IS MP, therefore it is not an unfair comparison where the main selling point in Mass Effect is story.