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[daftPirate]

Another curiosity needs satisfying: Does the Indoc. Theory accommodate for any difference between Control and Synthesis, or are they both seen simply as "submission"? Otherwise there doesn't seem like much point to having three choices.

[Denvian]

daftPirate wrote...

Another curiosity needs satisfying: Does the Indoc. Theory accommodate for any difference between Control and Synthesis, or are they both seen simply as "submission"? Otherwise there doesn't seem like much point to having three choices.

Think the difference between Saren and TIM

One was giving in because there was no use fighting and then the other one thought he was in control.  In the end they both worked for the Reapers it was just a matter of what was your motivation for making that choice.

So Synthesis choice is kinda the Hippie choice that screws you... Control is the arrogant choice that screws you and destroy is the no compromising choice.

Modifié par Denvian, 27 mars 2012 - 03:29 .

[Cucobr]

daftPirate wrote...

Another curiosity needs satisfying: Does the Indoc. Theory accommodate for any difference between Control and Synthesis, or are they both seen simply as "submission"? Otherwise there doesn't seem like much point to having three choices.

See this video:

[Peregrin25]

I still think Bioware intended on releasing the game as is, with a working knowledge of the reaction of the fans. All this talk of post game DLC to help conclude the game and all most of it is probably finished and had been worked on even prior to game release.

I just think to some extent they want to keep as much of it as hush hush and in house as possible. That is why we know so little. All in all the controversy of the ending is all part of their master plan for a huge publicity stunt. Then when they DLC or updates launch they will be like "BAM! Gotcha good huh?"

[Vahilor]

Denvian wrote...

daftPirate wrote...

Another curiosity needs satisfying: Does the Indoc. Theory accommodate for any difference between Control and Synthesis, or are they both seen simply as "submission"? Otherwise there doesn't seem like much point to having three choices.

Think the difference between Saren and TIM

One was giving in because there was no use fighting and then the other one thought he was incontrol.  In the end they both worked for the Reapers it was just a matter of what was your motivation for making that choice.

Saren allways was the opinion that the Reapers need him and that they will never take his free will away...so he somhow too thought he is in control.

[Golferguy758]

It's assumed the game can continue with any choice you make there, but it could drastically alter the final endings. I.e. green you may pull a saren and kill yourself to stop the reapers, or your squad could kill you. Blue might make the reapers win at the end etc

[greywardencommander]

 As people still seem to miss the point that the game (if IT is true) will continue from where you get hit by the beam regardless of choice (either because it's retconned to have you beat indoctrination at some point thus you always have to completely beat it like Saren but maybe die in the end because your mind is lost or that it's retconned that you always beat the last attempt OR it allows for both so final choice as it is doesn't matter)

In other words it's the difference between resisting and keeping your mind whole and pure or becoming Saren or TIM.

The whole point of the last 10 mins is to make you realise something's up (psychologically it should be basic instinct) and we (that is to say Shepard) are DELIBERATELY being manipulated to think it's the end by the Reapers (Bioware) because we have been being controlled all along without realising it. Breaking the fourth wall and framed narrative (stargazer) to the most extreme you can think of.

It IT is true and the endings are free dlc (like Bring down the SKy) or the code in new games MP lets us access the real endings via priority mission at the end of the game or something, or is in a massive Xbox Live/PSN/PC patch/update then almost all problems with it become moot other than people who refuse to accept that the last 10 mins is nothing more than a bad ending based on the fact 'it was on the disk'. Simple psychology dictates that in the long run (e.g. a years time) IT is true or a 'fix' comes from it then the fact it wasn't on the disk will be immaterial it would be the cleverest breaking the fourth wall and psychological experiment (indoctrination) in entertainment history.

To those who say indoctrination can't be broken in ME or in real life I assure you that is false, pay attention to the codex it's all subliminal and suggestive and slight nudges to get you to align with the ideology/belief etc being presented, brainwashing/cult essentially. If indoctrination was flat out control Reapers would just use it on everyone they come near to get them to walk right up to them and be harvested. The point is once you KNOW 'you see things differently' because you know the twist, like in a film such as Fight Club which is the 'breaking the fourth wall' idea. So for it to have any impact in a game (you could just reload a save) it had to extend to the players who ARE Shepard

Read my signature thread on the psychology of the last 10 mins alone pointing to hallucination (regardless of if you noticed the hints because you're not supposed to, you're Shepard thus don't realise you're being controlled) It's a long wall of text but I think it's interesting and have been told so (or just skip to the end where I talk about possibilities based on IDT DLC 'real/fixed' endings')

Put it this way if not deliberate the endings become mediocre in an otherwise immersive and brilliantly handled series (with flaws no doubt)

If deliberate well Bioware (not EA) have form in the plot twists of KOTOR in particular (and even DA:O to an extent with the ritual and the warden's fate against the blight) that show not all was as it seemed.
Framed narrative 'unreliable narrator' (like Varric) in Stargazer (it's all fabrication based on the legend that he beat the reaper 'threat' on his mind, it doesn't say defeated the reapers thus threat out of context can mean anything, one Reaper e.g. Sovereign, a Reaper threat to a single planet etc)

To say they're not clever enough to pull something like this off, well history says they are. If it was intended that would be as much proof as you need that they've not lost it completely despite 'selling out' (as they get accused of) to EA and that their creative side can still shine through.

Put it this way WE DON'T like the endings as they are, they weren't done properly to the standard we come to expect in the ME depth of storytelling. This whole idea got started based on the fact WE DON'T LIKE THE ENDINGS AS THEY ARE.

Which brings me to another point, if they realised the seeds of doubt needed to be sewn (confirmation bias) the script leak and deliberate changing from dark energy motivation to the illogical harvesting (killing, destroying whatever you want) organics to save them and taking away their free will was to make you think 'eh' why would Shepard go along with that, he believes in free will, independence, the freedom of choice (Shepard and the ME series). In other words that leak was from the game but it was not 'the endings' in the sense it's the middle of the story but the end of the game. ME3+patch or free DLC with real ones still = full game and full ME3 in todays climate (as morally bankrupt as that might seem)

How do you know the script leak wasn't the 'middle of the story' in the sense that after that big old page there's another of 'how the 'endings' will effect the rest of the story. How do you know the original ideas and videos etc weren't people from bioware? How do you know people from bioware aren't keeping this thread going until Pax next week (a Dragon Age and Mass Effect Panel is there so I'd say 6th April is the day to know for sure) BECAUSE they want everyone to have it on their minds for some big reveal.

Or if the 'current endings' are as they are without 'clarification' which is what IDT is 'clarification that the last sequence didn't happen' then I worry for Bioware and some of the writers because they left all the clues, they had the idea of indoctrinating Shepard and a Shepard VR Reaper so why scrap something 'fundamental' to the story and if we second hand can think of how to do it narrative wise (i.e. not gameplay mechanics which are irrelevant in that regard) then I do worry...

So to all people who say we like the endings realise this, WE DON'T we're providing the only way to make the endings anywhere near as good as the rest of the series that DOESN'T rely on plot holes, space magic and wanting us to use our imagination (which if endings as they are is stupid even if done well) Don't make it all imagination, leave some to the imagination for future titles such as the mystery of the Reapers, are they the first organic or synthetics in the cycle that rose up to destroy their creators or organics protecting themselves and indoctrinated over millenia to their twisted purpose)
If you are interested in all this read my signature thread (DLC ideas at bottom of big wall of text about the psychology)

Modifié par greywardencommander, 27 mars 2012 - 03:37 .

[Rifneno]

Re: Crucible as Reaper trap/WTF do we do now then

I've been suspicious about the Crucible since it was first brought up. At first I thought BW just didn't have a good end for the Reapers written in already and had to ass pull something. But when they told us it was millions of years old with each cycle improving, that set off some alarm bells. There was no reason for them to tell us it wasn't Prothean and add another significant layer of unbelievability. In millions of years with indoctrinated sleeper agents all over the place and their supposedly thorough cleanup, you're telling me the Reapers never knew about that thing? Or that they decided it wasn't worth making absolutely sure all the plans were destroyed? Because either of those options is harder to swallow than a bowling ball. I call BS. Yeah, Reaper trap.

What do we do about them now? ... Sun Tzu. Knowledge = victory, ignorance = defeat. We likely know more about the Reapers than any previous cycle. I think the most important thing we've learned is that they are partially organic. That may mean they're vulnerable to organic-specific things and/or invulnerable to traditional anti-synthetic only attacks such as electromagnetic blasts. If the organic matter in them is a... vital organ I guess you'd say, then perhaps they're vulnerable to radiation attacks to some extent. Just an example.

[BrinkFX]

IT would say they are basically submission. Possibly 3 choices with 1 possibility of breaking the hold. Speculation. 2/3 of commitment rather than 1/2 perhaps saying the indoctrination is strong and hence suggestive to those 2. Just my idea if it were the case

[Denvian]

Rifneno wrote...

Re: Crucible as Reaper trap/WTF do we do now then

I've been suspicious about the Crucible since it was first brought up. At first I thought BW just didn't have a good end for the Reapers written in already and had to ass pull something. But when they told us it was millions of years old with each cycle improving, that set off some alarm bells. There was no reason for them to tell us it wasn't Prothean and add another significant layer of unbelievability. In millions of years with indoctrinated sleeper agents all over the place and their supposedly thorough cleanup, you're telling me the Reapers never knew about that thing? Or that they decided it wasn't worth making absolutely sure all the plans were destroyed? Because either of those options is harder to swallow than a bowling ball. I call BS. Yeah, Reaper trap.

What do we do about them now? ... Sun Tzu. Knowledge = victory, ignorance = defeat. We likely know more about the Reapers than any previous cycle. I think the most important thing we've learned is that they are partially organic. That may mean they're vulnerable to organic-specific things and/or invulnerable to traditional anti-synthetic only attacks such as electromagnetic blasts. If the organic matter in them is a... vital organ I guess you'd say, then perhaps they're vulnerable to radiation attacks to some extent. Just an example.

It means a lot more Mass Effect!! Or at least I hope that is what it means.

[daftPirate]

Denvian wrote...

daftPirate wrote...

Another curiosity needs satisfying: Does the Indoc. Theory accommodate for any difference between Control and Synthesis, or are they both seen simply as "submission"? Otherwise there doesn't seem like much point to having three choices.

Think the difference between Saren and TIM

One was giving in because there was no use fighting and then the other one thought he was in control.  In the end they both worked for the Reapers it was just a matter of what was your motivation for making that choice.

So Synthesis choice is kinda the Hippie choice that screws you... Control is the arrogant choice that screws you and destroy is the no compromising choice.

Uhuh. I dig this concept. Thanks for the feedback, folks. I think all my gaps concerning IT are plugged for now. Here's hoping IT, or something equally interesting, translates into a DLC.

[n00bsauce2010]

Rifneno wrote...

Re: Crucible as Reaper trap/WTF do we do now then

I've been suspicious about the Crucible since it was first brought up. At first I thought BW just didn't have a good end for the Reapers written in already and had to ass pull something. But when they told us it was millions of years old with each cycle improving, that set off some alarm bells. There was no reason for them to tell us it wasn't Prothean and add another significant layer of unbelievability. In millions of years with indoctrinated sleeper agents all over the place and their supposedly thorough cleanup, you're telling me the Reapers never knew about that thing? Or that they decided it wasn't worth making absolutely sure all the plans were destroyed? Because either of those options is harder to swallow than a bowling ball. I call BS. Yeah, Reaper trap.

What do we do about them now? ... Sun Tzu. Knowledge = victory, ignorance = defeat. We likely know more about the Reapers than any previous cycle. I think the most important thing we've learned is that they are partially organic. That may mean they're vulnerable to organic-specific things and/or invulnerable to traditional anti-synthetic only attacks such as electromagnetic blasts. If the organic matter in them is a... vital organ I guess you'd say, then perhaps they're vulnerable to radiation attacks to some extent. Just an example.

Also since the "original ending" was leaked the IT makes sense. The original Dark Matter ending also uses circular logic as well.. similar to the catalyst kid saying "Yo DAWG we reap you so that synthetics won't kill you.. so I made some synthetics to kill you every 50k years so that synthetics won't kill you.. even though geth and quarian are working together outside and EDI a previously rogue AI is working for the cause of humanity... so just ignore that one DAWG"

The Dark Matter ending: 'Yo dawg.. we reap you to control DARK MATTER..cuz ya know we use dark matter to power the mass relays and artifacts (object rho) dog.. and from what we know.. DARK MATTER is some crazy sh*t that can't be controlled unless we reap you" the same circular logic that makes no sense.

Seems to me IT was true either way.

[Dance Craze]

clennon8 wrote...

Dance Craze wrote...

I still hold the fact that a DLC ending is improbable and impossible since after your complete the game you are back on the Normandy before the Cerberus base attack.. You would then have to play another 4 hours just to get back to the "ending" again, Does not seem likely.
'

There's an endgame save that is saved with your profile.  It isn't loadable from the game menu, but it's there.

ED: ninjaed

That is assuming there is an end game save file... Why would there be one with no future game? Also the message at the end says the reapers are defeated and get ready to continue the legend with DLC.

[greywardencommander]

Dance Craze wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Dance Craze wrote...

I still hold the fact that a DLC ending is improbable and impossible since after your complete the game you are back on the Normandy before the Cerberus base attack.. You would then have to play another 4 hours just to get back to the "ending" again, Does not seem likely.
'

There's an endgame save that is saved with your profile.  It isn't loadable from the game menu, but it's there.

ED: ninjaed

That is assuming there is an end game save file... Why would there be one with no future game? Also the message at the end says the reapers are defeated and get ready to continue the legend with DLC.

actually says 'the reaper threat has ended' not reapers are defeated and could be a clue in itself. Threat out of context can mean one Reaper (e.g. Sovereign or Harbinger) the 'threat' on one planet or the 'threat' on his mind. Continue building the legend (just one more story) by seeing what happens after you overcome their greatest weapon in true action hero style

[ChuckieJ]

Denvian wrote...

daftPirate wrote...

Another curiosity needs satisfying: Does the Indoc. Theory accommodate for any difference between Control and Synthesis, or are they both seen simply as "submission"? Otherwise there doesn't seem like much point to having three choices.

Think the difference between Saren and TIM

One was giving in because there was no use fighting and then the other one thought he was in control.  In the end they both worked for the Reapers it was just a matter of what was your motivation for making that choice.

So Synthesis choice is kinda the Hippie choice that screws you... Control is the arrogant choice that screws you and destroy is the no compromising choice.

But ultimately they are the same. Both characters were deluded and being controlled by the Reapers ultimately. The thought I have seen is that if your fleet is big enough then the Reapers give you a third "neutral" sounding choice, when in fact synthesis is turning everyone into Husks.

Though this isn't a direct analogy, the Monty Hall Problem from the game show "Let's Make a Deal" came to mind when I first heard about IT. Basically two "doors" are explained to you. 

Door #1) Destroy. This is what you came to do. But the StarChild says you will kill the Geth also. I think you have no reason to believe him, but it sounds like he is helping you make your decision.
Door #2) Control. He says it is possible even though it wasn't for TIM. Some people realized that there really isn't any evidence to say that the Reapers are "controllable" at all.
Door #3) Just in case you are questioning control you get a third option. Synthesis. The presentation of Door #2 and Door #3 is to pull you away from the Door you intended to open when you got to the Citadel (Destroy).

The StarChild claims that you alone (by virtue of making it this far) have the power to do any of these three things. However, there is no evidence to backup his claim that the Reapers are controllable. And synthesis is plain unfair for everyone even if Joker likes the results. Therefore you should do what you came to do and by doing so you are hitting the "exit button" on the hallucination. 

[Flash_Death]

Dance Craze wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Dance Craze wrote...

I still hold the fact that a DLC ending is improbable and impossible since after your complete the game you are back on the Normandy before the Cerberus base attack.. You would then have to play another 4 hours just to get back to the "ending" again, Does not seem likely.
'

There's an endgame save that is saved with your profile.  It isn't loadable from the game menu, but it's there.

ED: ninjaed

That is assuming there is an end game save file... Why would there be one with no future game? Also the message at the end says the reapers are defeated and get ready to continue the legend with DLC.

They have the end game file for if you import a completed me3 chacter.

[Yahmosa007]

i don't belive low ems destroy is shepard being indoctrinated, i think it just doesn't matter

[baruaru]

Am i the only one who wants to know the creator of the Reapers? =p

Modifié par baruaru, 27 mars 2012 - 03:43 .

[nyrocron]

Dance Craze wrote...

That is assuming there is an end game save file... Why would there be one with no future game? Also the message at the end says the reapers are defeated and get ready to continue the legend with DLC.

No, the message speaks of the reaper THREAT, that could mean anything. Sovy was a reaper threat, the collectors were a reaper threat, indoc may be a reaper threat...

[lomar1o]

Garrus:"we both know we need a clear head to win this war"
..was that a win? hell no!

[baruaru]

Yahmosa007 wrote...

i don't belive low ems destroy is shepard being indoctrinated, i think it just doesn't matter

Mostly meaning that shepard is dieng, so... No meaning to continue the indocrination

*Releasing Control*

[greywardencommander]

Rifneno wrote...

Re: Crucible as Reaper trap/WTF do we do now then

I've been suspicious about the Crucible since it was first brought up. At first I thought BW just didn't have a good end for the Reapers written in already and had to ass pull something. But when they told us it was millions of years old with each cycle improving, that set off some alarm bells. There was no reason for them to tell us it wasn't Prothean and add another significant layer of unbelievability. In millions of years with indoctrinated sleeper agents all over the place and their supposedly thorough cleanup, you're telling me the Reapers never knew about that thing? Or that they decided it wasn't worth making absolutely sure all the plans were destroyed? Because either of those options is harder to swallow than a bowling ball. I call BS. Yeah, Reaper trap.

What do we do about them now? ... Sun Tzu. Knowledge = victory, ignorance = defeat. We likely know more about the Reapers than any previous cycle. I think the most important thing we've learned is that they are partially organic. That may mean they're vulnerable to organic-specific things and/or invulnerable to traditional anti-synthetic only attacks such as electromagnetic blasts. If the organic matter in them is a... vital organ I guess you'd say, then perhaps they're vulnerable to radiation attacks to some extent. Just an example.

Perhaps they do know about it they just don't know that the cycle knows about it until TIM tells them and as you say it's odd and alarm bells ring based on simple psychology that the person telling you all this stuff at the end CONTROLS YOUR ENEMY wtf would I trust anything he says. If Lord Voldermort jumped out telling me he controlled Adolf Hitler through the Imperius curse I sure as hell wouldn't go 'you know what everything you say makes sense please tell me what I have to do again'

Modifié par greywardencommander, 27 mars 2012 - 03:48 .

[llbountyhunter]

Quick question: why do you think it took a certain amount of galactic readiness to unlock the systhesis ending? Does it unlock even if you haven't played me1?

I would think It would be the destroy ending the gets unlocked....or is it something to throw us off?

[Dance Craze]

nyrocron wrote...

Dance Craze wrote...

That is assuming there is an end game save file... Why would there be one with no future game? Also the message at the end says the reapers are defeated and get ready to continue the legend with DLC.

No, the message speaks of the reaper THREAT, that could mean anything. Sovy was a reaper threat, the collectors were a reaper threat, indoc may be a reaper threat...

They call it the reaper threat in case you chose an ending where the reapers become benevolent... The blue and green endings. Hence they are no longer a threat.

[Kyzee]

 One question/argument against IT that I keep seeing it the whole, "If IT is true, then why would Harbinger show Shepard what happened to his/her squadmates/the Stargazer scene?" thing. The common counterargument is that it's either (1) Harbinger further tricking Shepard into believe s/he made the right choice, or (2) it's Shepard's mind comforting him/herself that s/he made the right choice.

I honestly think the the answer is much simpler than that. Consider for a minute: what if the game ended right when Shepard made his/her choice of Control/Synthesis/Destroy? Choice made, screen goes black. This wouldn't leave players with a debatable ending; it would scream, "This game wasn't finished!" If you think the fanbase is up in arms now, it would pale in comparison to the reaction that the above scenario would receive (and justifiably so.)

Furthermore, as I've mentioned before, if IT is what BioWare was intending, then the game has to end the way it does in order for the indoctrination of Shepard/the players to have the impact it was meant to have. Otherwise, it's just a "Psych!" moment. Imagine Shepard gets indoctrinated/breaks the indoctrination, and the game continues the to ultimate conclusion? The indoctrination scene just wouldn't have the same power that it does being the last note in the story (for now .)

Modifié par Kyzee, 27 mars 2012 - 03:59 .